If we're going to go crazy with trades, what about just a straight swap of Jordan Poole for DeAndre Ayton (we might need to sweeten it with a first or two, and/or Lamb, Rollins or Moody to match salaries).
I'm not sure this is a valid trade, but spotrac's trade machine says yes.
(edit: so does fanspo's, though I don't think it really is valid under the new CBA).
We get a center. Probably would be played off the court in the playoffs, but during the regular season, he could be an innings-eater to keep Looney and Draymond fresh.
Suns get a backup/emergency PG to supplement Paul (assuming they re-sign him). They also get rid of a guy that seems none too happy to be playing for them.
We need to find a new backup PG, they need to find a new center (but have KD for the playoffs).
Note: I'm on record as not wanting to trade any of the young guys and still feel that way. This is proposed as an alternative to the Middleton trade below. Your mileage may vary. Definitely not sold in any stores.
At least Ayton would fit snugly into the 'designated scapegoat for close losses' role vacated by JP in that scenario.
On a more serious note, I don't think Lamb would be acceptable as a trade sweetener, Rollins is needed to fill *our* shortage at scoring guard, and I wouldn't want to trade both JP and Moody to a division rival. Not convinced that grudge Ayton would match their intensity for the annual battles in the coming years. In other words, that trade potentially makes the Suns too good.
I don't really see Rollins as the 'backup PG' replacement for Poole. He's just too green. But, it's a valid point that shipping out two PGs may not be that smart.
OTOH, we're somewhat hamstrung on the contracts we can send out to match salaries. Most of them are too big/lumpy. I guess you might be able to put PBJ in there for Rollins ... haven't checked the numbers.
I also think that Ayton being coached by Decky is a little intriguing. Some of Ayton's issues are not fixable (uneven effort), but some of them probably are.
Cole Anthony is a nice low efficiency PG that gets a bit selfish at times to replace Poole, and Jonathan Issac can help the legend of Celebrini grow. Plus moving up 8 picks sounds nice. Would much prefer Fultz over Anthony if trading with the Magic though.
Given all this talk about trades, contracts, and luxury tax, I saw someone post about how the last two Dynasties were built off the backs of the two VERY team friendly contracts: Pippens' 5 yr/$18m & Steph's 4yr/$44m. Are there any other team friendly Dynasty building contracts out there??
There are dynasty extending contracts like Tim Duncan's. That seems like where we are at. Curry took his haircut on the front end. If Klay and Dray will take haircuts on the back end, would open door for more strength in numbers. Or should we call that, Strength in Contracts.
Alright after listening to Windhorst podcast earlier today, this is a modification of a Khris Middleton/Beale trade they were suggesting earlier today (assuming Middleton opts in) but im including the Warriors
Bucks get Beale
Warriors get Khris Middleton
Washington gets Kuminga/Moody/Poole 19th pick and Pat Connaughton (for salary matching purposes)
Now you have a closing lineup of Curry/Thompson/Wiggins/Middleton and Draymond and clear Middletons salary slot after this year (if Taxes are a concern)
So, basically all the young players and a pick for one year of oft-injured Khris Middleton? We almost certainly couldn't re-sign him (I don't think Bird rights would convey).
I think if we are going to push all our chips into the middle for next year (which this trade is), then we'd probably target a frontline center.
Plus, we'd probably want someone on a longer contract.
Why? Ill take Khris Middleton at the 4 (hes a power forward at this point in his career) over anyone the Warriors can throw out there other than Draymond. Im not advocating for any tracr but in this case if the salary matching works out hed be perfect for this squad and allows Wiggins to stay at 3 in a smaller lineup. Positional versatility all across the board: something that neither Poole nor Kuminga (offensively) or most likely thr 19th pick are able to give us right now
The only thing I see here in favor of the Dubs is Middleton's contract expires next season, so if they want to get off of a big contract, it works. But it doesn't make the Warriors a better team. 4 rings playing next to Steph is hard to duplicate. I'm not opposed to trading Klay. I like a deal that can bring a couple of younger, proven players, into the fold for depth and the future. Middleton is no PF.
CTG has him primary playing Forward since 17-18 (except for 18-19). His usage at PF has been steadily increasing and like Klay, in today’s league he is best suited to play the 4. But again he, like everyone aforementioned In possible lineup, is gonna be giving you offensive versatility. Hes actually even played small ball 5 on occassion
Ill easily take a guy thats ‘falling apart’ on a 1 year flyer over the albatross of a Poole contract (with Kuminga and possibly other pieces having to be thrown in there). Ive been on record as saying that im ok with keeping everyone but if the trade chatter is to be believed on both JP and JK then give me an established all star that can play multiple positions on a one year flyer and if he holds (like Otto) then we are winning the chip with that lineup. If he does not, we got rid of that Poole contract and maybe can see about re-signing Middleton on a more team friendly deal. Win win all around
I think you're paying too much. Kuminga and Moody are not throw-ins, they're valuable young players who could be a significant part of our future. We then have to replace two more bench mob guys with vet mins, which is not a reliable market. Besides, our starting 5 is not the problem. The problem has been bench depth and an inconsistent defense.
Let’s assume the Warrior’s are unable to make a big move in the draft or via trade and decide to run it back with the usual suspects to start the season. If this is the case, I believe Iggy is the key. Not to play, but to remind us of the critical and seemingly forgotten role he played in the Warrior’s system. Andre was the Warrior’s poster child for Strength in Numbers and a culture that put the needs of the team first. We had a promising #7 pick in H Barnes at small forward. Andre was asked by Steve Kerr to come off the bench, not because H Barnes was a better player and deserved to start, but because H Barnes proved more efficient as a starter and Andre was the perfect player to run the second unit. “He settles us down, he reads the game and makes the right play,” Kerr would always say. This move made the team better, without question.
If Curry & the gang are intent on running things back, why not take a page out of the dynasty playbook. Is there a player on the team who is a high-level IQ forward, superior defender who can guard 1-5 and is an elite play maker to boot? May I present Draymond Green, who, coincidentally, is backed up by another promising forward who was the 7th pick in the draft.
I am not saying that JK needs to start over Draymond because he is a better player. However, I will submit that the Warriors would be a far better TEAM, were Dray to move to the bench and assume leadership of the second unit. a) JK is more likely to thrive and be more productive in the starting unit as was Barnes. b) The second unit last year was an unmitigated disaster. And here I have to remind everyone of Andre’s value in his old role. When the second unit took over, when Curry stepped off the floor, Dub nation didn’t go into a panic. I admit, I have been of the mind that when Curry is off the floor, Poole needs to be out there. Always one or the other. But now I am thinking it’s Dray that should be on the floor when Curry is off, not Poole. Sure, our starting 5 last year was awesome, but they don’t play together for 48 minutes. And this doesn’t mean you can’t close games with them. I am just of the opinion that the player who leads the second unit has more team value than who starts at PF (= to who plays the first 5-8 minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarters).
To take this one step further, we have sufficient evidence that Poole is a much more effective and efficient player as a starter. And by a mile. Assuming the Warriors intend to move off him by the trade deadline, increasing his trade value wouldn’t be a bad thing. And let’s not forget the Warriors went 18-2 out of the gate 2 years ago with a Curry-Poole back court. But what about Klay? a) This would likely be temporary and can be sold as easing Klay into the season b) there is just as much evidence that Klay’s game can oscillate between All-Star and horror show based purely on rest and conditioning. If Klay has his legs, he can still be a #2 on a Championship team. If the coach overplays him, he can still be a #2, but the other kind. The goal here is to get the best out of both players, allow Poole to find his Poole Party game as a starter, and shorten the actual game for Klay (less load) by coming off the bench, getting p/gm min down to about 30, and pairing him with Draymond to lead what could evolve into one of the best 2nd units in the NBA.
Workload. I think the core should all cut p/gm minutes throughout the regular season. Curry 32, Klay 30, Dray 28 ought to be ideal. It was obvious Klay was overplayed, lost his legs, and couldn’t hit the Bay shooting off his boat. You hope Draymond was tired in the Laker’s series and wasn’t just doing his buddy a solid by laying down on defense before the King. Looney didn’t miss a game for 2 seasons, add a Championship run in between, then Kerr bumps his playoff rotation minutes up some 40%. There is no question that Kerr overplayed his vets this year the same way he overplayed Iggy to start the season 2 years ago.
And I know Poole is young but consider this. a) fallout from the punch, b) his first season following a Championship run, c) having the most mentally challenging job on the team having to ping pong between Starting PG (filling in for HOFer), Starting SG (filling in for HOFer) and 6th Man (early season favorite to win 6MOY) and d) having to lead a wildly inexperienced and unfamiliar 2nd Unit.
Jordan Poole not only played every game, but he played 12.4% of ALL minutes played by the entire team last year. Jordan Poole scored 17.2% of ALL points scored by the entire team last year. Oh yeah, for about 3.9 mil salary with the fringe benefit of being the team’s and media’s scapegoat for losing.
Frankly, I give Poole credit just for finding the arena in the playoffs. He must have been physically, mentally, and emotionally shot. And if he wasn’t he had every right to be.
In sum, this team could be far better if Kerr would put players in positions to succeed and that begins with putting Draymond into the proven Andre 6th Man role, and by dedicating key resources to the 2nd unit.
Klay has played heavy minutes in non-Curry 2nd units his whole career, which is good for him because without Curry he gets to hunt more. The only thing that changes is he doesn’t play the first 5-8 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters, big deal. Both JP and JK get the time they need to get their games on track, something that is obviously harder for younger players. It worked with H Barnes. It should work with those two.
This is the same team. The vets are playing the same minutes, though I would reduce 2-3 p/gm minutes, but not because of the change in rotations, but for regular season load management. The same starting 5 can close games. But, based on ample evidence, you would get better production from the young guys, and you would end up having one of the best bench units in the NBA, thus taking pressure of the starting unit to outscore opponents by 23 per 100 possessions JUST to be in the game at the end.
In sum, anchor the 2nd unit with Klay & Dray with Moody in between. Rotate PGs (Lester Q, TY or RR) and GP2, PBJ and whatever vet min FA center they pick up. I can’t wait for that 2nd unit to get on the floor. In the meantime, if a Curry-Poole-Wiggs-JK-Looney starting 5 can’t outplay a majority of NBA teams, it’s time to tear it all down. Steph-Poole-Wiggs-JK are 4 20 pt p/gm scorers per 36 min., assuming you call 2 plays for JK per game.
In 2 months, Poole has rebuilt his trade value, meaning we can get value back in a mid-season trade without attaching JK in the deal. We trade Poole for bench depth. JK becomes a fixture in the starting lineup. Klay returns to the starting lineup and Dray becomes the new Iggy, the key component of the Warriors system that has been missing in action.
Why is doesn’t work? Neither Dray or Klay would be willing to do what Iggy once did. We complain about young players who want to start who we feel don’t “deserve” it. It’s not about deserving it. It’s about what is best for the team. And the old guys are just as guilty as the young guys in putting their own desires above what is best for the team. I miss the Steve Kerr that had the balls to approach Iggy and ask him to come off the bench. If we want to ever sniff a Championship again, we need that guy back.
After that gets working, why would you trade Poole? If its working you don't need more bench depth. If it isn't working Poole's value is probably going to be low anyway. So, I'm with you on everything you said, except trading Poole.
As a pure basketball decision, the idea of Poole starting and Klay coming off the bench makes total sense to me. I’m also supportive of cutting back Dray and klay’s nightly minutes to 24-30 min to help keep them fresh.
Part of what makes me like this idea is having dray to cover up poole’s mistakes on defense.
I think it also makes sense to have Klay and Kuminga paired in some units—Kuminga is better at guarding point of attack, and klay can guard the power forward.
Maybe the Warriors could try to get in on a Beal trade, but try to get Hartenstein if it's the Knicks, or maybe even Kuzma from the Wizards. The problem, though, is that Kuminga + Moody + pick is way too much for Hartenstein, not enough for Kuzma, and does work well in general salary-wise. If the Wizards are getting rid of Beal, I doubt if they want Poole's contract. The Knicks, however, might want Poole and Beal, if only to use Poole's contract in another trade (KAT?), while keeping Randle, Brunson, etc.
I'm sure this is another "all teams say no" trade, but (rough outline):
Wolves: Poole, Toppin, Grimes, Moody, 2 picks (NYK)
Warriors: Barrett, Slo-Mo, NYK pick
I'm probably under-valuing Beal (even with that contract), and over-valuing Barrett, who might be traded for someone else, but if not, would be the opposite of Poole - terrible offense, better defense. The Wizards (Fournier + Rose's expiring?) might prefer shorter/rookie contracts over Barrett's Poole-length deal.
Beal has a no trade clause that travels with him. If he’s actually as bad as he’s seemed for winning you can’t unload him to a team with cap space without his permission.
Beale next 4 years $46,741,590 $50,203,930 $53,666,270 $57,128,610
And this contract includes a No Trade clause. IMO, the very worst contract in the NBA, a franchise killer.
I appreciate your trade, but I think you are undervaluing our players based on short term memory sample size. If I am Washington, I am doing cartwheels here. Washington is so F'ed with that contract. I feel bad for them.
> Brandin Podziemski has helped himself as much as any prospect in the pre-draft process thus far, first at the NBA Combine, and then in private workouts, where one exec described him as a "mean MFer."
> "Just put him in the cage in 3 on 3 and let him fight. He makes the right reads every time."
If Podziemski has been giving the impression that he can keep up with NBA level size/athleticism in private workouts, then I could see the Warriors taking him. That's what validated Poole for Dunleavy. From today's Athletic article although I guess the quote is old:
> “We had Jordan in for two workouts,” Dunleavy said back then. “Thought he did really well in the first one. Then we brought him back for a second, had him go against some bigger, more physical guys. More two/threes than one/twos. He handled the ball a lot, and his ability to make plays — maybe it was something you don’t see as much in his college environment — was impressive. Then it felt like seeing him, there was some concerns about his physicality holding up in the NBA. He did really well in that workout. That was kind of a moment where everybody felt comfortable saying, ‘You know, this kid, he’s going to be able to hold up.'”
Seemingly seeing a lot of “trading x player” gets us out of their contract. I’m not sure that matters if I’m correctly understanding that unless pretty much all the big contracts are gone, GSW are gonna be capped out regardless. If so, all we’d be doing in “salary dumps” is losing those spend slots if we’re not trying to get anything back right?
With that premise, Beal for Klay doesn’t sound too bad. Unless Klay can fetch us someone even younger and better, if you think Klay is on decline, then Beal might be a step up and better than nothing which we might end up with if Klay doesn’t re-sign or extend with us. And if he does, well, he’s on a decline (again, if you think that).
I dunno, I used to think “let these guys stay here forever no matter if we suck at the end” but that was whenI was drunk off championship high. Now, I’d rather not have to wait out mediocre old man ball until we get some young, fun, and dangerous days again like when our current core were relative pups and “ruining the league.” I get not alienating our living, still playing legends, and yeah, they deserve whatever they want. But I also feel it’s a franchise’s job—among other jobs, mind—to win and keep winning and set up for more winning.
Think Billy Beane and Moneyball. Different sport, sure, but I’m talking maximizing winning over “stories and sentimentality” where the latter can actually hurt the former.
There’s no easy answer. Even, “run it back, these guys just won a ring last year” isn’t that cut and dry. I think at these guys ages, a year is exponentially more in aging, especially as we go into playoffs more. Even in their youth, all the deep runs led to major injuries after or during the Toronto finals.
Anyway, tough stuff. I like that Dunleavy is GM though. Dude was here and suffered during Cohan, and shouldn’t let “A Great Time Out” be the focus (being the slogan and all) like it was then, and high expectations for the in-game play will be prioritized.
The issue is that Beal's contract is so ridiculous and 3 years longer than Klay's. And with the onerous penalties for exceeding the 2nd apron, it would handicap team building. It would be a really bad move for a guy who is barely an upgrade, if at all, and also on the decline.
There is also a possibility that Klay will sign an extension for less money.
Okay, all you wrote in the first paragraph makes sense and helps me understand there’s more downside then. Thanks, I admit the apron stuff is more abstract to me but I’m starting to get it
>Now, I’d rather not have to wait out mediocre old man ball until we get some young, fun, and dangerous days again like when our current core were relative pups and “ruining the league.”
Truth is the trio of Steph, Klay and Dray is most likely a once in a generation type of deal for our franchise. I doubt we'll replicate this success anytime in the near future after they hang it up. I'm expecting a whole lot of "mortal" basketball after this era is over.
Sure, but we gotta keep pushing on and seeing how close we can get I think. The post-Finals-mortem from The Ringer (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/6/13/23759661/2023-nba-champions-denver-nuggets-patience-nikola-jokic-jamal-murray-michael-malone) talks about how the Nuggets let their guys—Jokic, Murray at the core—cook for about 7 years before they got to where they are now. I think we gotta start cooking some of the fresh grocery we have and can fetch. We can’t do 7 more years of literal Steph Dray and Klay at this point. I mean we can, but that’s not just mortal basketball, that’s gonna veer into undead basketball sooner or later.
And look, I’m fine with the Warriors doing that, kinda. I mean I’m gonna start having some wandering eyes looking at teams who have fresher futures and presents, I won’t lie. (For the record I’m a Dubs fan for life barring some real hellscape return to a Cohan-like existence.) But I think a good number of us might have to accept that “not wasting Curry’s prime” doesn’t necessarily mean keeping Klay and/or Dray affixed to that. Even “not wasting Curry’s prime” might have to be let go at some point if what that statement means means going for broke by trading lower value assets that still have time to appreciate and/or recover lost value. That restarts the “7 year clock” for each young guy we do that with, whether or not we get youth or age back. And if it’s the latter, unless it’s a home run trade, we might be looking at pushing the clock off a cliff for non-sure-things.
Moody and Looney, and Wiggins if he’s focused on basketball, seem to be a nice core to build around. Now just need to get a distributor with solid D that’s not going to hijack the entire team’s performance with super high usage and inefficiency (TO’s + meh TS) so the team can avoid being a 500 team at best with the occasional playoff appearance.
Fultz would be my choice in that age bracket and Orlando has a bunch of guards so he might be gettable. He still can’t shoot the three with a natural stroke but he’s back to shooting normally from a few feet inside the arc. He’s been their win driver but they might feel they flashed enough potential without him this past year.
A team I could love if we only have an old man Curry left would be:
Fultz
Curry
Moody
Wiggins
Looney
GP2
Hawkins
PBJ
Santos
Thybull
A couple vet bigs that can bang and pass. Please don’t ever draft a big.
Appreciate this comment and being someone who is at least thinking of alternatives to the current core trio guys. Fultz would be a pretty nice piece, yeah. I don’t think a three point shot is super crucial if we just get shots in period.
A PG let’s Steph get more off ball too so some more catch and shoot action for him might keep him even more dangerous at the three anyway.
Only question is does Old Man Curry wanna stick around when his fellow vet brothers are gone. He didn’t seem to even wanna let go of Iguodala and let him retire last season. But if he wanted out, he could fetch a lot back for sure too. No one wants that, but not wanting to even think about alternatives is gonna make the transition hard for a lot of fans I think, especially if they’ve mostly just experienced the dynasty years more than what came before.
Word, I especially didn’t understand the cap implications are even worse, just was thinking if we get a usable semi-younger player for a little longer, then that’s better than a less than with Klay, assuming he’s declining faster (which I don’t know is true, but is possible)
I mean, Jordan put up 24.5 points per 36 on 57% true shooting in a down year (that's good for 21st in the league in points/36). The only one younger than him to put up more was #1 pick Anthony Edwards... I don't know why other teams wouldn't be interested.
He doesn't defend, period. But apparently there is a market out there for him and I don't buy that we'd have to include another of our key young players to make something happen. A pick, maybe, but keep Kuminga (and Moody) or give me death!
True but he's not the only glass cannon in the league, people around here are even talking about replacing him with fellow traffic cones Bradley Beal and Jordan Clarkson.
We shall see. We have no idea how Dunleavy will run the show. Yes, he was Myer's right hand man but we're not certain if he'll operate the same way. Time will tell.
No, no, that's out. Besides after all they paid for Gobert, they'd want a mint for him. But rumor (yes I know that can be BS) has it that KAT might be available. Normally I'd say no way we can afford him but it's the Twolves, so hope springs eternal.
Marc Spears reporting Draymond is expected to opt out of the deal.
I think this happening was extremely predictable and is a step toward the mutually agreed upon plan for Draymond to sign a long term deal at a lower number, but I guess we'll find out for sure in a few weeks.
No anxiety for me. I want Dray to stay, but if he tries to play hardball with the franchise, it would be fascinating to see him try his luck with the rest of the league. I don't doubt that he could find a home, but at what price?
I don't see it... who's giving him more than the Warriors would match? And would he really leave the Warriors and Steph without getting a significant bump? Only place I could squint and see competing out is OKC...
If we're going to go crazy with trades, what about just a straight swap of Jordan Poole for DeAndre Ayton (we might need to sweeten it with a first or two, and/or Lamb, Rollins or Moody to match salaries).
I'm not sure this is a valid trade, but spotrac's trade machine says yes.
(edit: so does fanspo's, though I don't think it really is valid under the new CBA).
We get a center. Probably would be played off the court in the playoffs, but during the regular season, he could be an innings-eater to keep Looney and Draymond fresh.
Suns get a backup/emergency PG to supplement Paul (assuming they re-sign him). They also get rid of a guy that seems none too happy to be playing for them.
We need to find a new backup PG, they need to find a new center (but have KD for the playoffs).
Note: I'm on record as not wanting to trade any of the young guys and still feel that way. This is proposed as an alternative to the Middleton trade below. Your mileage may vary. Definitely not sold in any stores.
At least Ayton would fit snugly into the 'designated scapegoat for close losses' role vacated by JP in that scenario.
On a more serious note, I don't think Lamb would be acceptable as a trade sweetener, Rollins is needed to fill *our* shortage at scoring guard, and I wouldn't want to trade both JP and Moody to a division rival. Not convinced that grudge Ayton would match their intensity for the annual battles in the coming years. In other words, that trade potentially makes the Suns too good.
I don't really see Rollins as the 'backup PG' replacement for Poole. He's just too green. But, it's a valid point that shipping out two PGs may not be that smart.
OTOH, we're somewhat hamstrung on the contracts we can send out to match salaries. Most of them are too big/lumpy. I guess you might be able to put PBJ in there for Rollins ... haven't checked the numbers.
I also think that Ayton being coached by Decky is a little intriguing. Some of Ayton's issues are not fixable (uneven effort), but some of them probably are.
Makes sense
Cole Anthony is a nice low efficiency PG that gets a bit selfish at times to replace Poole, and Jonathan Issac can help the legend of Celebrini grow. Plus moving up 8 picks sounds nice. Would much prefer Fultz over Anthony if trading with the Magic though.
I've like a deal with ORL for awhile. Cole and Isaac cool, but would love them to throw in Bol Bol to cap off that trade.
Given all this talk about trades, contracts, and luxury tax, I saw someone post about how the last two Dynasties were built off the backs of the two VERY team friendly contracts: Pippens' 5 yr/$18m & Steph's 4yr/$44m. Are there any other team friendly Dynasty building contracts out there??
Aaron Gordon and Mikal Bridges are both low to mid 20’s for three more years. Those look real nice.
3 more yrs: Dort at 15-17, Time Lord for 11-13.
Caruso 2yrs at 9
How do you feel about Keldon Johnson?
Looney is the best.
There are dynasty extending contracts like Tim Duncan's. That seems like where we are at. Curry took his haircut on the front end. If Klay and Dray will take haircuts on the back end, would open door for more strength in numbers. Or should we call that, Strength in Contracts.
Probably just Looney's 3yr/$21m...
Alright after listening to Windhorst podcast earlier today, this is a modification of a Khris Middleton/Beale trade they were suggesting earlier today (assuming Middleton opts in) but im including the Warriors
Bucks get Beale
Warriors get Khris Middleton
Washington gets Kuminga/Moody/Poole 19th pick and Pat Connaughton (for salary matching purposes)
Now you have a closing lineup of Curry/Thompson/Wiggins/Middleton and Draymond and clear Middletons salary slot after this year (if Taxes are a concern)
So, basically all the young players and a pick for one year of oft-injured Khris Middleton? We almost certainly couldn't re-sign him (I don't think Bird rights would convey).
I think if we are going to push all our chips into the middle for next year (which this trade is), then we'd probably target a frontline center.
Plus, we'd probably want someone on a longer contract.
You're losing it, Bud.
Why? Ill take Khris Middleton at the 4 (hes a power forward at this point in his career) over anyone the Warriors can throw out there other than Draymond. Im not advocating for any tracr but in this case if the salary matching works out hed be perfect for this squad and allows Wiggins to stay at 3 in a smaller lineup. Positional versatility all across the board: something that neither Poole nor Kuminga (offensively) or most likely thr 19th pick are able to give us right now
The only thing I see here in favor of the Dubs is Middleton's contract expires next season, so if they want to get off of a big contract, it works. But it doesn't make the Warriors a better team. 4 rings playing next to Steph is hard to duplicate. I'm not opposed to trading Klay. I like a deal that can bring a couple of younger, proven players, into the fold for depth and the future. Middleton is no PF.
“Middleton is no PF”
https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/2495#tab-offensive_overview
CTG has him primary playing Forward since 17-18 (except for 18-19). His usage at PF has been steadily increasing and like Klay, in today’s league he is best suited to play the 4. But again he, like everyone aforementioned In possible lineup, is gonna be giving you offensive versatility. Hes actually even played small ball 5 on occassion
But this is already how the Dubs are playing. Did you ask Steph if he wants to replace Klay with Middleton?
Where in my statement are you seeing me include Klay?
All of that for a guy that's basically falling apart as we speak: https://www.si.com/nba/bucks/news/the-question-mark-surrounding-khris-middleton
https://media.tenor.com/Ue0a6X1iRS4AAAAM/scratch-wound.gif
Ill easily take a guy thats ‘falling apart’ on a 1 year flyer over the albatross of a Poole contract (with Kuminga and possibly other pieces having to be thrown in there). Ive been on record as saying that im ok with keeping everyone but if the trade chatter is to be believed on both JP and JK then give me an established all star that can play multiple positions on a one year flyer and if he holds (like Otto) then we are winning the chip with that lineup. If he does not, we got rid of that Poole contract and maybe can see about re-signing Middleton on a more team friendly deal. Win win all around
I think you're paying too much. Kuminga and Moody are not throw-ins, they're valuable young players who could be a significant part of our future. We then have to replace two more bench mob guys with vet mins, which is not a reliable market. Besides, our starting 5 is not the problem. The problem has been bench depth and an inconsistent defense.
The Iguodala Factor.
Let’s assume the Warrior’s are unable to make a big move in the draft or via trade and decide to run it back with the usual suspects to start the season. If this is the case, I believe Iggy is the key. Not to play, but to remind us of the critical and seemingly forgotten role he played in the Warrior’s system. Andre was the Warrior’s poster child for Strength in Numbers and a culture that put the needs of the team first. We had a promising #7 pick in H Barnes at small forward. Andre was asked by Steve Kerr to come off the bench, not because H Barnes was a better player and deserved to start, but because H Barnes proved more efficient as a starter and Andre was the perfect player to run the second unit. “He settles us down, he reads the game and makes the right play,” Kerr would always say. This move made the team better, without question.
If Curry & the gang are intent on running things back, why not take a page out of the dynasty playbook. Is there a player on the team who is a high-level IQ forward, superior defender who can guard 1-5 and is an elite play maker to boot? May I present Draymond Green, who, coincidentally, is backed up by another promising forward who was the 7th pick in the draft.
I am not saying that JK needs to start over Draymond because he is a better player. However, I will submit that the Warriors would be a far better TEAM, were Dray to move to the bench and assume leadership of the second unit. a) JK is more likely to thrive and be more productive in the starting unit as was Barnes. b) The second unit last year was an unmitigated disaster. And here I have to remind everyone of Andre’s value in his old role. When the second unit took over, when Curry stepped off the floor, Dub nation didn’t go into a panic. I admit, I have been of the mind that when Curry is off the floor, Poole needs to be out there. Always one or the other. But now I am thinking it’s Dray that should be on the floor when Curry is off, not Poole. Sure, our starting 5 last year was awesome, but they don’t play together for 48 minutes. And this doesn’t mean you can’t close games with them. I am just of the opinion that the player who leads the second unit has more team value than who starts at PF (= to who plays the first 5-8 minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarters).
To take this one step further, we have sufficient evidence that Poole is a much more effective and efficient player as a starter. And by a mile. Assuming the Warriors intend to move off him by the trade deadline, increasing his trade value wouldn’t be a bad thing. And let’s not forget the Warriors went 18-2 out of the gate 2 years ago with a Curry-Poole back court. But what about Klay? a) This would likely be temporary and can be sold as easing Klay into the season b) there is just as much evidence that Klay’s game can oscillate between All-Star and horror show based purely on rest and conditioning. If Klay has his legs, he can still be a #2 on a Championship team. If the coach overplays him, he can still be a #2, but the other kind. The goal here is to get the best out of both players, allow Poole to find his Poole Party game as a starter, and shorten the actual game for Klay (less load) by coming off the bench, getting p/gm min down to about 30, and pairing him with Draymond to lead what could evolve into one of the best 2nd units in the NBA.
Workload. I think the core should all cut p/gm minutes throughout the regular season. Curry 32, Klay 30, Dray 28 ought to be ideal. It was obvious Klay was overplayed, lost his legs, and couldn’t hit the Bay shooting off his boat. You hope Draymond was tired in the Laker’s series and wasn’t just doing his buddy a solid by laying down on defense before the King. Looney didn’t miss a game for 2 seasons, add a Championship run in between, then Kerr bumps his playoff rotation minutes up some 40%. There is no question that Kerr overplayed his vets this year the same way he overplayed Iggy to start the season 2 years ago.
And I know Poole is young but consider this. a) fallout from the punch, b) his first season following a Championship run, c) having the most mentally challenging job on the team having to ping pong between Starting PG (filling in for HOFer), Starting SG (filling in for HOFer) and 6th Man (early season favorite to win 6MOY) and d) having to lead a wildly inexperienced and unfamiliar 2nd Unit.
Jordan Poole not only played every game, but he played 12.4% of ALL minutes played by the entire team last year. Jordan Poole scored 17.2% of ALL points scored by the entire team last year. Oh yeah, for about 3.9 mil salary with the fringe benefit of being the team’s and media’s scapegoat for losing.
Frankly, I give Poole credit just for finding the arena in the playoffs. He must have been physically, mentally, and emotionally shot. And if he wasn’t he had every right to be.
In sum, this team could be far better if Kerr would put players in positions to succeed and that begins with putting Draymond into the proven Andre 6th Man role, and by dedicating key resources to the 2nd unit.
Klay has played heavy minutes in non-Curry 2nd units his whole career, which is good for him because without Curry he gets to hunt more. The only thing that changes is he doesn’t play the first 5-8 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters, big deal. Both JP and JK get the time they need to get their games on track, something that is obviously harder for younger players. It worked with H Barnes. It should work with those two.
This is the same team. The vets are playing the same minutes, though I would reduce 2-3 p/gm minutes, but not because of the change in rotations, but for regular season load management. The same starting 5 can close games. But, based on ample evidence, you would get better production from the young guys, and you would end up having one of the best bench units in the NBA, thus taking pressure of the starting unit to outscore opponents by 23 per 100 possessions JUST to be in the game at the end.
In sum, anchor the 2nd unit with Klay & Dray with Moody in between. Rotate PGs (Lester Q, TY or RR) and GP2, PBJ and whatever vet min FA center they pick up. I can’t wait for that 2nd unit to get on the floor. In the meantime, if a Curry-Poole-Wiggs-JK-Looney starting 5 can’t outplay a majority of NBA teams, it’s time to tear it all down. Steph-Poole-Wiggs-JK are 4 20 pt p/gm scorers per 36 min., assuming you call 2 plays for JK per game.
In 2 months, Poole has rebuilt his trade value, meaning we can get value back in a mid-season trade without attaching JK in the deal. We trade Poole for bench depth. JK becomes a fixture in the starting lineup. Klay returns to the starting lineup and Dray becomes the new Iggy, the key component of the Warriors system that has been missing in action.
Why is doesn’t work? Neither Dray or Klay would be willing to do what Iggy once did. We complain about young players who want to start who we feel don’t “deserve” it. It’s not about deserving it. It’s about what is best for the team. And the old guys are just as guilty as the young guys in putting their own desires above what is best for the team. I miss the Steve Kerr that had the balls to approach Iggy and ask him to come off the bench. If we want to ever sniff a Championship again, we need that guy back.
After that gets working, why would you trade Poole? If its working you don't need more bench depth. If it isn't working Poole's value is probably going to be low anyway. So, I'm with you on everything you said, except trading Poole.
I think if Dray comes off the bench we still would want his minutes to partially overlap with Steph. Their chemistry is one of our strengths.
#TwilightYears
Maybe 'Twilight Zone' years......
As a pure basketball decision, the idea of Poole starting and Klay coming off the bench makes total sense to me. I’m also supportive of cutting back Dray and klay’s nightly minutes to 24-30 min to help keep them fresh.
Part of what makes me like this idea is having dray to cover up poole’s mistakes on defense.
I think it also makes sense to have Klay and Kuminga paired in some units—Kuminga is better at guarding point of attack, and klay can guard the power forward.
I do like the idea of Draymond on the bench and I actually think he would do it. Klay, though, that might be tougher.
I've never thought that Bradley Beal gets anyone all that many more wins, but I could be wrong.
You're not wrong.
Maybe the Warriors could try to get in on a Beal trade, but try to get Hartenstein if it's the Knicks, or maybe even Kuzma from the Wizards. The problem, though, is that Kuminga + Moody + pick is way too much for Hartenstein, not enough for Kuzma, and does work well in general salary-wise. If the Wizards are getting rid of Beal, I doubt if they want Poole's contract. The Knicks, however, might want Poole and Beal, if only to use Poole's contract in another trade (KAT?), while keeping Randle, Brunson, etc.
I'm sure this is another "all teams say no" trade, but (rough outline):
Knicks: Beal, KAT
Washington: Quickly, Kuminga, Hartenstein, (filler - Fournier + Rose), 3 picks (NYK)
Wolves: Poole, Toppin, Grimes, Moody, 2 picks (NYK)
Warriors: Barrett, Slo-Mo, NYK pick
I'm probably under-valuing Beal (even with that contract), and over-valuing Barrett, who might be traded for someone else, but if not, would be the opposite of Poole - terrible offense, better defense. The Wizards (Fournier + Rose's expiring?) might prefer shorter/rookie contracts over Barrett's Poole-length deal.
Beal has a no trade clause that travels with him. If he’s actually as bad as he’s seemed for winning you can’t unload him to a team with cap space without his permission.
Beale next 4 years $46,741,590 $50,203,930 $53,666,270 $57,128,610
And this contract includes a No Trade clause. IMO, the very worst contract in the NBA, a franchise killer.
I appreciate your trade, but I think you are undervaluing our players based on short term memory sample size. If I am Washington, I am doing cartwheels here. Washington is so F'ed with that contract. I feel bad for them.
> Brandin Podziemski has helped himself as much as any prospect in the pre-draft process thus far, first at the NBA Combine, and then in private workouts, where one exec described him as a "mean MFer."
> "Just put him in the cage in 3 on 3 and let him fight. He makes the right reads every time."
https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1669746562954670105
If Podziemski has been giving the impression that he can keep up with NBA level size/athleticism in private workouts, then I could see the Warriors taking him. That's what validated Poole for Dunleavy. From today's Athletic article although I guess the quote is old:
> “We had Jordan in for two workouts,” Dunleavy said back then. “Thought he did really well in the first one. Then we brought him back for a second, had him go against some bigger, more physical guys. More two/threes than one/twos. He handled the ball a lot, and his ability to make plays — maybe it was something you don’t see as much in his college environment — was impressive. Then it felt like seeing him, there was some concerns about his physicality holding up in the NBA. He did really well in that workout. That was kind of a moment where everybody felt comfortable saying, ‘You know, this kid, he’s going to be able to hold up.'”
If Dubs can turn #19 into some early 2nd round picks, B Pod would be a great pick up. (if he slips that far)
Orrrrr… they could just take the players they like with the pick they have… just saying
Seemingly seeing a lot of “trading x player” gets us out of their contract. I’m not sure that matters if I’m correctly understanding that unless pretty much all the big contracts are gone, GSW are gonna be capped out regardless. If so, all we’d be doing in “salary dumps” is losing those spend slots if we’re not trying to get anything back right?
With that premise, Beal for Klay doesn’t sound too bad. Unless Klay can fetch us someone even younger and better, if you think Klay is on decline, then Beal might be a step up and better than nothing which we might end up with if Klay doesn’t re-sign or extend with us. And if he does, well, he’s on a decline (again, if you think that).
I dunno, I used to think “let these guys stay here forever no matter if we suck at the end” but that was whenI was drunk off championship high. Now, I’d rather not have to wait out mediocre old man ball until we get some young, fun, and dangerous days again like when our current core were relative pups and “ruining the league.” I get not alienating our living, still playing legends, and yeah, they deserve whatever they want. But I also feel it’s a franchise’s job—among other jobs, mind—to win and keep winning and set up for more winning.
Think Billy Beane and Moneyball. Different sport, sure, but I’m talking maximizing winning over “stories and sentimentality” where the latter can actually hurt the former.
There’s no easy answer. Even, “run it back, these guys just won a ring last year” isn’t that cut and dry. I think at these guys ages, a year is exponentially more in aging, especially as we go into playoffs more. Even in their youth, all the deep runs led to major injuries after or during the Toronto finals.
Anyway, tough stuff. I like that Dunleavy is GM though. Dude was here and suffered during Cohan, and shouldn’t let “A Great Time Out” be the focus (being the slogan and all) like it was then, and high expectations for the in-game play will be prioritized.
The issue is that Beal's contract is so ridiculous and 3 years longer than Klay's. And with the onerous penalties for exceeding the 2nd apron, it would handicap team building. It would be a really bad move for a guy who is barely an upgrade, if at all, and also on the decline.
There is also a possibility that Klay will sign an extension for less money.
Okay, all you wrote in the first paragraph makes sense and helps me understand there’s more downside then. Thanks, I admit the apron stuff is more abstract to me but I’m starting to get it
>Now, I’d rather not have to wait out mediocre old man ball until we get some young, fun, and dangerous days again like when our current core were relative pups and “ruining the league.”
Truth is the trio of Steph, Klay and Dray is most likely a once in a generation type of deal for our franchise. I doubt we'll replicate this success anytime in the near future after they hang it up. I'm expecting a whole lot of "mortal" basketball after this era is over.
Once Steph is gone, we could easily become "Wizards West."
Sure, but we gotta keep pushing on and seeing how close we can get I think. The post-Finals-mortem from The Ringer (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/6/13/23759661/2023-nba-champions-denver-nuggets-patience-nikola-jokic-jamal-murray-michael-malone) talks about how the Nuggets let their guys—Jokic, Murray at the core—cook for about 7 years before they got to where they are now. I think we gotta start cooking some of the fresh grocery we have and can fetch. We can’t do 7 more years of literal Steph Dray and Klay at this point. I mean we can, but that’s not just mortal basketball, that’s gonna veer into undead basketball sooner or later.
And look, I’m fine with the Warriors doing that, kinda. I mean I’m gonna start having some wandering eyes looking at teams who have fresher futures and presents, I won’t lie. (For the record I’m a Dubs fan for life barring some real hellscape return to a Cohan-like existence.) But I think a good number of us might have to accept that “not wasting Curry’s prime” doesn’t necessarily mean keeping Klay and/or Dray affixed to that. Even “not wasting Curry’s prime” might have to be let go at some point if what that statement means means going for broke by trading lower value assets that still have time to appreciate and/or recover lost value. That restarts the “7 year clock” for each young guy we do that with, whether or not we get youth or age back. And if it’s the latter, unless it’s a home run trade, we might be looking at pushing the clock off a cliff for non-sure-things.
Moody and Looney, and Wiggins if he’s focused on basketball, seem to be a nice core to build around. Now just need to get a distributor with solid D that’s not going to hijack the entire team’s performance with super high usage and inefficiency (TO’s + meh TS) so the team can avoid being a 500 team at best with the occasional playoff appearance.
Fultz would be my choice in that age bracket and Orlando has a bunch of guards so he might be gettable. He still can’t shoot the three with a natural stroke but he’s back to shooting normally from a few feet inside the arc. He’s been their win driver but they might feel they flashed enough potential without him this past year.
A team I could love if we only have an old man Curry left would be:
Fultz
Curry
Moody
Wiggins
Looney
GP2
Hawkins
PBJ
Santos
Thybull
A couple vet bigs that can bang and pass. Please don’t ever draft a big.
Appreciate this comment and being someone who is at least thinking of alternatives to the current core trio guys. Fultz would be a pretty nice piece, yeah. I don’t think a three point shot is super crucial if we just get shots in period.
A PG let’s Steph get more off ball too so some more catch and shoot action for him might keep him even more dangerous at the three anyway.
Only question is does Old Man Curry wanna stick around when his fellow vet brothers are gone. He didn’t seem to even wanna let go of Iguodala and let him retire last season. But if he wanted out, he could fetch a lot back for sure too. No one wants that, but not wanting to even think about alternatives is gonna make the transition hard for a lot of fans I think, especially if they’ve mostly just experienced the dynasty years more than what came before.
Anyway, thanks again
Added the Ringer article to my comment above but here it is too: “The Denver Nuggets Were Built to Last” Rob Mahoney —https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/6/13/23759661/2023-nba-champions-denver-nuggets-patience-nikola-jokic-jamal-murray-michael-malone
Plus Klay has great chemistry with Dray, Steph, and Loon. And I doubt Steph would be happy with that trade, which does matter.
Do you really gain that much in a Beal/Klay trade? I don't see enough upside to make that trade - for a lot of reasons..
Word, I especially didn’t understand the cap implications are even worse, just was thinking if we get a usable semi-younger player for a little longer, then that’s better than a less than with Klay, assuming he’s declining faster (which I don’t know is true, but is possible)
https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1669817198972481536
Don't know if this has been posted anywhere but Warrior's receiving calls on JP. Seems like other teams are at least interested.
I mean, Jordan put up 24.5 points per 36 on 57% true shooting in a down year (that's good for 21st in the league in points/36). The only one younger than him to put up more was #1 pick Anthony Edwards... I don't know why other teams wouldn't be interested.
Because he doesn't defend well, is one thing
He doesn't defend, period. But apparently there is a market out there for him and I don't buy that we'd have to include another of our key young players to make something happen. A pick, maybe, but keep Kuminga (and Moody) or give me death!
True but he's not the only glass cannon in the league, people around here are even talking about replacing him with fellow traffic cones Bradley Beal and Jordan Clarkson.
I suspect more than a few teams want to take advantage of a new GM. It's probably like chum in the water for other GMs.
Hopefully, Dunleavy will not do something Vlade-ish.
Other teams' GMs doing their due diligence too... "Can we get Poole and the #19 pick for Ben Simmons? Hello? Weird... call just randomly ended..."
We shall see. We have no idea how Dunleavy will run the show. Yes, he was Myer's right hand man but we're not certain if he'll operate the same way. Time will tell.
Let the funleavy era begin
I head on 957 the game that this era is being called the Dun-Kirk Era :-)
Yikes. Let's hope it goes better than that.
I'm up for the strategic retreat to Santa Rosa.
If we win a championship:
The Dun and One era.
I like Dundun.
If he makes good trades he can be the Dundeal.
Or Dundone
Presumably they will say a lot while revealing nothing about their draft / free agency / extension plans.
**
Joe Lacob will introduce Mike Dunleavy Jr. as the next Warriors GM in a press conference on Monday at 11 am, Warriors announce.
https://twitter.com/shaynarubin/status/1669768176031395890?s=61&t=P_FoYb59qpl6sz-fj5Z51g
"We're just now closing on a trade, I can't say anything until it's official, but let me say it rhymes with "Thai Chairome for Yawnis Andy Kompo"
Nah we only get those deals with the Twolves. They have a big fellow they might trade though. Not naming any names of course.
Not Gobert. Not Gobert. Not Gobert...
No, no, that's out. Besides after all they paid for Gobert, they'd want a mint for him. But rumor (yes I know that can be BS) has it that KAT might be available. Normally I'd say no way we can afford him but it's the Twolves, so hope springs eternal.
Poole for KAT let’s go
I wasn't naming names and you let the KAT out of the bag! But yeah, I'm in.
Marc Spears reporting Draymond is expected to opt out of the deal.
I think this happening was extremely predictable and is a step toward the mutually agreed upon plan for Draymond to sign a long term deal at a lower number, but I guess we'll find out for sure in a few weeks.
Time to live in anxiety and worry until the first day of free agency.
No anxiety for me. I want Dray to stay, but if he tries to play hardball with the franchise, it would be fascinating to see him try his luck with the rest of the league. I don't doubt that he could find a home, but at what price?
…or he’s off to parts unknown 🤷🏼♂️
I don't see it... who's giving him more than the Warriors would match? And would he really leave the Warriors and Steph without getting a significant bump? Only place I could squint and see competing out is OKC...
I don't want this. But is there a possibility for pick no 3 for Green?
I’ve actually been making your point all along and was being more tongue in cheek 🤙🏼
Well if he is then I guess the "trying to trade for a high lottery pick" reports make sense lol
For the record, I think your post above was right; just having fun with how binary it now becomes.
Seems like people really do grow into their names!
I wonder if Memphis is going to make Ja available for trade.
1. They've signalled that they want to go a different way with things (Brooks not being offered a contract).
2. They've played very well without him in the lineup, and Ja's missed enough time, it's probably not a fluke.
The suspension won't affect his value much. He'd probably bring back two or three pieces.
My thoughts:
Trade 1: No. Beal is massively overpaid and is a streaky shooter.
Trade 2: No. I don't want a PG that is past his prime anywhere near the Dubs.
Trade 3: Yes, but Magic is gonna decline that offer. That huge contract Poole signed is gonna make it hard for the Warriors to move him.
Trade 4: Yes. Not sure if Jazz will agree, though.