Underrated or overrated is always an odd thing. It's not a statement solely of the player's perceived performance, but of the extent to which the public generally rates them. I feel incompetent to say whether the public or the media or whoever generally rates anyone higher or lower than he should be.
I'm gonna say it; Dame Lillard is a little OVERRATED. Phenomenal player no doubt. But the deep threes and the very impressive run he had going for a while circa the Paul George "bad shot", along with being on an under-talented team tend to mask real issues with his low efficiency at times and his generally terrible defensive play. His ability to get to the line and convert once there is really elite though. And he's probably the second best deep three point shooter in history, a little ahead of Trae Young (who is a fairly mediocre three point shooter but doesn't really lose much efficiency when shooting from deep).
He’s not a perfect player, but he’s pretty great. You have to consider his leadership and ability to rise in big games as well.
He’s not a good defender, but they’ve just always done him a disservice in building that D around him. Small guards like Simons and CJ. Middling wings. A couple solid years of Nurkic but otherwise injuries and mediocrity.
Like what if he’d had the guys Harden had in Houston? Late prime Dwight and Capela. Ariza, Tucker as tough 3 and D wings. He’s not beating the Warriors either with that team but I wouldn’t be surprised if he had more conference finals runs.
Interesting comp in Harden. He's older and received more adulation including more All Star nods. But their profile very similarly, almost identical eFG, Dame ahead in 3 pt %. Both prodigious foul-drawers and defensive sieves. ESPN put Harden at 50 and Lillard at 75, which to me means Harden is the more overrated.
I called him “phenomenal” which I would assert is significantly higher praise than “pretty great”.
For context; he was voted a top 75 NBA player of ALL TIME. I think that's overrating him. He gets a sympathy bump for being a really good dude and staying with a loser team out of loyalty..
JK has a really hard time with rebounds because he's most often guarding perimeter players, putting him in very poor position for rebounds. But it's also why he's able to get fairly easy leak-out transition buckets.
Man that was cathartic. I wish some of the secondary Dubs would step up like that on the road. At home, most of them consistently play so well. Great game Warriors, love y’all. Go win the next 3 games!
Best defensive game of playoffs without best 2 defensive players (no shade Loon) not playing? Did they play great defense? Mostly. But what is really happening is less turnovers and better shot selection. The offensive bone is connected to the defensive bone. This game is the best representation of "good offense leads to good defense" I think I have ever seen. Do the Dubs want to keep chasing the Kings all around the court in transition, huffing and puffing their way to their man, always one step out of position, or would they rather take their damn time, protect the ball, value their possession, and take more than .5 seconds to make a GOOD decision and take a good shot. I'm done with the .5 second decision rule. It's more important to make a good decision, make the safe pass, value the possession and get a shot off. Sacramento scored 97 freaking points last night without Dray and GP2. And the Dubs did it by slowing down and playing with attention and intention. That is what I have been waiting for all freaking year long. Thank you Dubs. Thank you Adam Silver, for forcing Steve to put some faith in his players and to remind him that he is the coach, not Draymond. It's his job to light the fire. It's his job to flip the switch and lead his team to the light. Don't let go of that switch, Steve. It's time you start showing us just how smart you really are.
I don't really think of it as "slowing down" but more "not rushing". We still need to (and do) run in transition and put pressure on their defense in that way, which is critical. But if we come down in transition and the Kings are back we can go into a halfcourt offense and have some success rather than just YOLOing a three pointer four seconds into the possession.
It's not like we didn't play fast... that would be suicide against the Kings. The key is to not play frantically but have pace with purpose.
All to say, I agree with what you're saying, but I think some nuance is lost by boiling it all the way down to "slow down".
Also, one of the huge benefits of going to the rack is that there are fewer long rebounds for the Kings to turn into fast break opportunities the other way.
I hope we can keep this success in the half-court going, but you know Brown is going to have a counter for next game. Hope we have some other variation in the bag.
Apropos of nothing: Not a great sign for a player’s reputation when I see an article titled “Murders are spiking in Memphis” and my first thought is: “Have they checked Ja Morant’s alibis?”
That’s a rhetorical question, because obviously the Memphis police wouldn’t investigate him for anything as trivial as murder.
Hey played his usual 37 minutes. The Warriors were not very much negative without him and that includes garbage time where we gave up a little bit of that.
Lists like this always make me wonder what could’ve been if Steph had decided to join the NBA and left Davidson after one year or even after high school.
Most of the people on lists like these started their NBA career at least two years before Steph.
In the top 10 you have Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, West who played as much or more college than Curry though. And with Curry specifically it's hard to know if he could really have played in the NBA yet. Probably 1 year earlier but unlikely more than that. And for this particular stat of playoff scoring, I think it's safe to say that extra year wouldn't have helped.
With less minutes played than a lot of the 50 players in the list. 3rd highest TS% and 4th highest EFG% and, of course, most 3 pointers made. Impressive!
Big shout out to Adam Silver for the assist on tonight's W. A smaller shout out to whatever bug knocked out GP2. It took losing 45 min p/gm in rotation minutes for Kerr to dish out 29 minutes to Moody and JK. Warriors slowed down, they took care of the ball, their added length and athleticism (Moody & JK) is a problem for the Kings, Looney absolutely shines in Dray's absence, and I'll even give Kerr credit for winning the substitution battle with Mike Brown for changing Curry's sub pattern.
My worry now is Draymond and Curry hooking up again. They remind me of those two guys who, when you hang with them alone, they are cool. But when they get together they kind of turn into a-holes. And by that I mean they have a negative impact on each other in the area of ball security. Draymond tends to push things a little too fast at times and create passes that just aren't there. Then Curry starts winding up those overhead cross court skip passes to the other team. I would love to see a stat of what their respective turnover rates are while on the court individually and while together.
Styles make fights and match ups matter. GP2 has been very efficient in this series. Draymond a little less so . In the first 2 games, Steph and Dray accounted for 9 turnovers per game just between them. That cannot continue. So the $64,000 dollar question is: will Steve take what he's learned from game 3 and apply it, or will he flip the channel back to business as usual, and give the keys to the car back to Draymond days after it got out of the shop from him wrecking it?
I think we have a large enough sample size to say definitively that they are better together. Like better together enough to be on an all-time list of teammates who were better together. And Dray is an a-hole, regardless.
But I do like your observation that the silver lining is that JK and Moody were forced into playing time by our depleted roster.... Go Warriors!
I know Lamb have some naysayers on here. I for one also wanted a serviceable big instead. Tonight though, Lamb came through with some nice defensive plays. That block on Monk’s corner 3pter was so demoralizing for Monk that I doubt he’ll eat any Lamb for at least until we end this series.
If Steve and the staff stick to staggering Dray and Loon the entire game for spacing...who do you think should get the start? I know Steve probably goes Dray, but after the night Loon had, tough to send him to the bench the next game. Gotta reward him.
Crazy thing, Draymond & Loon have the highest +/- rating per 100 possessions (+13.6) of any two-man combination on the team. Steph/Looney is second (+11.9). I think they achieve that as a defensive combo, Looney on the back line allowing Dray to play middle linebacker. It seems like a risk, but the numbers don't lie.
HB has had a solid start to the series so far which means he'll disappear when things get tough for them.
THE ATHLETIC Anonymous NBA player poll 2023
Who’s the most underrated player? 97 votes
Jrue Holiday 17.5%
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander 11.3%
Mikal Bridges 5.2%
Jalen Brunson 4.1%
Jaden McDaniels 4.1%
Derrick White 4.1%
Jaylen Brown 3.1%
Anthony Edwards 2.1%
De’Aaron Fox 2.1%
Jaren Jackson Jr. 2.1%
Damian Lillard 2.1%
Khris Middleton 2.1%
Dejounte Murray 2.1%
Immanuel Quickley 2.1%
Austin Reaves 2.1%
No Loondawg. Must mean NBA players actually rate him?! Was so great to hear his value to the team being trumpeted on TNT in light of Greens absence.
Underrated or overrated is always an odd thing. It's not a statement solely of the player's perceived performance, but of the extent to which the public generally rates them. I feel incompetent to say whether the public or the media or whoever generally rates anyone higher or lower than he should be.
I'm gonna say it; Dame Lillard is a little OVERRATED. Phenomenal player no doubt. But the deep threes and the very impressive run he had going for a while circa the Paul George "bad shot", along with being on an under-talented team tend to mask real issues with his low efficiency at times and his generally terrible defensive play. His ability to get to the line and convert once there is really elite though. And he's probably the second best deep three point shooter in history, a little ahead of Trae Young (who is a fairly mediocre three point shooter but doesn't really lose much efficiency when shooting from deep).
He’s not a perfect player, but he’s pretty great. You have to consider his leadership and ability to rise in big games as well.
He’s not a good defender, but they’ve just always done him a disservice in building that D around him. Small guards like Simons and CJ. Middling wings. A couple solid years of Nurkic but otherwise injuries and mediocrity.
Like what if he’d had the guys Harden had in Houston? Late prime Dwight and Capela. Ariza, Tucker as tough 3 and D wings. He’s not beating the Warriors either with that team but I wouldn’t be surprised if he had more conference finals runs.
Interesting comp in Harden. He's older and received more adulation including more All Star nods. But their profile very similarly, almost identical eFG, Dame ahead in 3 pt %. Both prodigious foul-drawers and defensive sieves. ESPN put Harden at 50 and Lillard at 75, which to me means Harden is the more overrated.
I think Harden is a much better regular season player. But I’d rather have Dame in a key moment.
Harden is deserving of his 50 spot too. Maybe higher, TBH.
I called him “phenomenal” which I would assert is significantly higher praise than “pretty great”.
For context; he was voted a top 75 NBA player of ALL TIME. I think that's overrating him. He gets a sympathy bump for being a really good dude and staying with a loser team out of loyalty..
I think he’s worthy of the top 75 and not overrated
Cool. Opinions!
They think he’s already highly rated 😊
Guys probably didn't vote for Loon because they're tired of him locking them up when they think they have a easy opportunity on the switch.
Loon should be up there. So should Steph, frankly. Yeah, he's a two-time MVP, four-time champion, etc. And yeah, they /still/ underrate him.
It's always a good sign for us when Looney is dominating the boards. We need to win that battle every time.
Moody has also looked like he has a better nose for rebounds. I really wish Kuminga could quickly get there
JK has a really hard time with rebounds because he's most often guarding perimeter players, putting him in very poor position for rebounds. But it's also why he's able to get fairly easy leak-out transition buckets.
Kinda like Klay.
I hope Moody's success has a positive impact on the hustle/dirty work part of JK's game.
All I can say is - Thank our lucky stars, we can call Steph our own
I wore my "In steph we trust" jersey last night. Got to do that for every play-off game now!
Man that was cathartic. I wish some of the secondary Dubs would step up like that on the road. At home, most of them consistently play so well. Great game Warriors, love y’all. Go win the next 3 games!
Looney 4 points and 20 rebounds on 4/20. That's funny.
Ayy
Best defensive game of playoffs without best 2 defensive players (no shade Loon) not playing? Did they play great defense? Mostly. But what is really happening is less turnovers and better shot selection. The offensive bone is connected to the defensive bone. This game is the best representation of "good offense leads to good defense" I think I have ever seen. Do the Dubs want to keep chasing the Kings all around the court in transition, huffing and puffing their way to their man, always one step out of position, or would they rather take their damn time, protect the ball, value their possession, and take more than .5 seconds to make a GOOD decision and take a good shot. I'm done with the .5 second decision rule. It's more important to make a good decision, make the safe pass, value the possession and get a shot off. Sacramento scored 97 freaking points last night without Dray and GP2. And the Dubs did it by slowing down and playing with attention and intention. That is what I have been waiting for all freaking year long. Thank you Dubs. Thank you Adam Silver, for forcing Steve to put some faith in his players and to remind him that he is the coach, not Draymond. It's his job to light the fire. It's his job to flip the switch and lead his team to the light. Don't let go of that switch, Steve. It's time you start showing us just how smart you really are.
> And the Dubs did it by slowing down
I don't really think of it as "slowing down" but more "not rushing". We still need to (and do) run in transition and put pressure on their defense in that way, which is critical. But if we come down in transition and the Kings are back we can go into a halfcourt offense and have some success rather than just YOLOing a three pointer four seconds into the possession.
It's not like we didn't play fast... that would be suicide against the Kings. The key is to not play frantically but have pace with purpose.
All to say, I agree with what you're saying, but I think some nuance is lost by boiling it all the way down to "slow down".
I think you nailed it.
Also, one of the huge benefits of going to the rack is that there are fewer long rebounds for the Kings to turn into fast break opportunities the other way.
I hope we can keep this success in the half-court going, but you know Brown is going to have a counter for next game. Hope we have some other variation in the bag.
I believe John Wooden called that “be quick, but don’t hurry.”
https://clutchpoints.com/warriors-reactions-steph-curry-dominates-in-game-3-rout-of-kings
Of course I enjoyed the game and the after chat. No Dray, no GP2, and no Iggy, so God did it. He mad Moses the Ram in the Bush! 🙏😍
Apropos of nothing: Not a great sign for a player’s reputation when I see an article titled “Murders are spiking in Memphis” and my first thought is: “Have they checked Ja Morant’s alibis?”
That’s a rhetorical question, because obviously the Memphis police wouldn’t investigate him for anything as trivial as murder.
This seems a bit much.
Warriors top 5 in playoff net on-off per 100 possessions:
1. Curry +62.2
2. Looney +21.4
3. Wiggins +7.6
4. Poole +0.1
5. Payton -6.1
Everyone else -6.3 or below (Klay last among regulars at -23.6).
Problem: Warriors not good with Curry off.
Solution: Curry no off
Hey played his usual 37 minutes. The Warriors were not very much negative without him and that includes garbage time where we gave up a little bit of that.
I thought that I saw Payton has had great numbers through the first two games
2 game +/- is only slightly less useless that single game +/-
Nah it was his on n off numbers and Ortg and dRtg that I thought I saw were very good, he's been locking up fox, hitting threes and finishing inside
Steph passes Pippen & Nowitzki on career playoff scoring list: https://www.si.com/fannation/nba/fastbreak/news/steph-curry-made-nba-history-in-kings-warriors-game-3
Lists like this always make me wonder what could’ve been if Steph had decided to join the NBA and left Davidson after one year or even after high school.
Most of the people on lists like these started their NBA career at least two years before Steph.
In the top 10 you have Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, West who played as much or more college than Curry though. And with Curry specifically it's hard to know if he could really have played in the NBA yet. Probably 1 year earlier but unlikely more than that. And for this particular stat of playoff scoring, I think it's safe to say that extra year wouldn't have helped.
With less minutes played than a lot of the 50 players in the list. 3rd highest TS% and 4th highest EFG% and, of course, most 3 pointers made. Impressive!
Next up: Magic, 37 points ahead.
@nbastats
Take a look at Stephen Curry move without the ball as he travels 192.7 feet on a single possession in Game 1! #NBABreakdown
https://twitter.com/nbastats/status/1649154148988866568?s=46&t=axFNM8-E0eUBlHUbIgeXJQ
I've seen Giannis travel 192.7 feet on a single dribble.
“Try an keep up young fella!”
Big shout out to Adam Silver for the assist on tonight's W. A smaller shout out to whatever bug knocked out GP2. It took losing 45 min p/gm in rotation minutes for Kerr to dish out 29 minutes to Moody and JK. Warriors slowed down, they took care of the ball, their added length and athleticism (Moody & JK) is a problem for the Kings, Looney absolutely shines in Dray's absence, and I'll even give Kerr credit for winning the substitution battle with Mike Brown for changing Curry's sub pattern.
My worry now is Draymond and Curry hooking up again. They remind me of those two guys who, when you hang with them alone, they are cool. But when they get together they kind of turn into a-holes. And by that I mean they have a negative impact on each other in the area of ball security. Draymond tends to push things a little too fast at times and create passes that just aren't there. Then Curry starts winding up those overhead cross court skip passes to the other team. I would love to see a stat of what their respective turnover rates are while on the court individually and while together.
Styles make fights and match ups matter. GP2 has been very efficient in this series. Draymond a little less so . In the first 2 games, Steph and Dray accounted for 9 turnovers per game just between them. That cannot continue. So the $64,000 dollar question is: will Steve take what he's learned from game 3 and apply it, or will he flip the channel back to business as usual, and give the keys to the car back to Draymond days after it got out of the shop from him wrecking it?
I think we have a large enough sample size to say definitively that they are better together. Like better together enough to be on an all-time list of teammates who were better together. And Dray is an a-hole, regardless.
But I do like your observation that the silver lining is that JK and Moody were forced into playing time by our depleted roster.... Go Warriors!
Can we do a multi choice poll on this to see how well we think we know this team/coach?!!!
I know Lamb have some naysayers on here. I for one also wanted a serviceable big instead. Tonight though, Lamb came through with some nice defensive plays. That block on Monk’s corner 3pter was so demoralizing for Monk that I doubt he’ll eat any Lamb for at least until we end this series.
And a number of other glue guy moves. Loved it.
If Steve and the staff stick to staggering Dray and Loon the entire game for spacing...who do you think should get the start? I know Steve probably goes Dray, but after the night Loon had, tough to send him to the bench the next game. Gotta reward him.
Crazy thing, Draymond & Loon have the highest +/- rating per 100 possessions (+13.6) of any two-man combination on the team. Steph/Looney is second (+11.9). I think they achieve that as a defensive combo, Looney on the back line allowing Dray to play middle linebacker. It seems like a risk, but the numbers don't lie.
Loon looked good up against Sabonis. If we really want to win i’d put in Looney to start. We keep the same starting lineup as today.
Take Looney out mid way point of 1st throw Green on a tired Sabonis it’ll be lights out.
I like. But If only. Just can't see it happening. Kerr knows Draymond plays his best playing off the edge or not at all.