I do, I think he's the best in the division now with Crawford moved up in weight. Stanionis should give him a pretty good test, even though he doesn't have much defense to speak of.
This was supposed to be a reply, but I'm posting it here because it's long, and I also want a resident cap-ologist to double-check and tell me where I messed up the rules:
Suppose the Warriors want KD (asking for a friend):
If I'm reading it correctly:
- Find a team that wants JK that's below the 1st apron (Charlotte?)
- If JK gets 4/$120, for example, his salary for Charlotte's purposes is about $30 mil, but while his outgoing salary would only be $15 mil for the Dubs, Charlotte would have to send out $30 mil.
This salary would go to the Suns.
- So far: Warriors $50 mil in (Durant), $15 mil out (JK) (need $35 mil out)
Someone who knows better will clarify, but I don't think that ingoing/outgoing stuff applies to a sign and trade (I think that's for situations like, if we had traded Moody, whose new contract doesn't kick in until next season we only get credit for his current salary but the other team has to match his new one) if you sign and trade in the off season the new salary is the number. I'm just getting that from how I've seen it happen not from a great understanding of the rules (paging Perks ...) but I'm throwing that out there because then DFiB's point about what someone would want to pay JK would be the value of what we get back more or less.
bigger picture because, as you point out most big trades would have us giving up the whole team I expect the most that will happen next year is a TPMLE signing and then maybe a sign and trade with JK, as you are suggesting, depending on how he shows out the rest of the season.
Moody is (was really becuase he can't be traded until the offseason, after it expires) a poison pill.
For a sign-and-trade (according to article, maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm like you said?):
"If the player meets those criteria and is included in a sign-and-trade deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes is considered to be his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. For the team he is being signed-and-traded to, his incoming figure for matching purposes is simply his new full salary."
With the way his season is going, and with the state of the free agency market, and with JK’s status as a RFA, there’s NO WAY he gets anybody willing to give him $30M…
My understanding is that there aren't many teams with cap space to sign him outright to much of anything. As a result he may be forced into a tough choice of taking the sign and trade to a capped team (or taking what the Ws offer in the case they want to keep him) or testing an open market without much "market".
We could trade Buddy (and maybe others) for a slightly bigger salary (since we're no long hard-capped after this season?), then trade that player to the Suns and not have to add Post, Gui, etc to the trade. Or we could S&T Looney, I guess.
Seriously, though, wtf was that? If I recall correctly, Draymond ended up hitting a 3 out of it, but still. Not even Andre was perverse enough to pass up a dunk like that.
No matter what happens tomorrow, this year was supposed to be a transition year, and yet we're essentially playing a pre-play-in (at home) for 6th in the last game of the season.
It hasn't been perfect, but even team has some bad losses. I'm confident we can at least compete with the Clippers, and we somehow win, I think we win at least 3 games in a 3-6 matchup (if not 4). LGW!!!
Edit: By waiting to make a trade at the deadline, we messed up our seeding yeah, but sacrificed it for better trade opportunities this coming offseason. Next season's moves are truly make-or-break for the coming 2 seasons, so I'm glad there wasn't a panic move this season. If we do end up making the 1st round, it'll be an added bonus (for me at least). If we're in the same boat this time next season, then maybe we made some wrong moves (although those bad moves will probably have been made this June/July, not getting Butler).
I think we have our core 7 or 8 for next year, TBH.
If you're thinking trade, who exactly can we send out to match salaries? They guys who make anything are not ones we want to trade, except possibly Hield.
And GP2, Loon, and JK are all FAs, so that would have to be a S&T, for which it is probably difficult to find a partner since it would hardcap the receiving team. Look at Dallas' woes this year.
Not that I'm aware. My understanding is that if a team takes an S&T player, they are hardcapped at the first apron (the same level we've been capped at this year).
So, for a team that is well below the first apron, it isn't an issue, but for anyone near or above the first apron, it's probably a challenge to stay under that level and take a S&T FA.
That feels like a realistic best(-ish) case scenario.
I’ve wondered a little about Cleveland, as well, an idea that relies upon Kenny Atkinson thinking he can achieve with Kuminga what Steve could not. One or two of Strus, Okoro, and/or Wade? Not as appealing as Wiggins, but there could be something there: Strus has played well with Butler before; Okoro seems more at peace with his 3/D destiny than JK does at this point; Wade offers some size and shooting for roughly the TPMLE. (Might have been more realistic before they acquired De’Andre Hunter, though.)
I was just wishing today that we had somehow trading Kuminga for Butler instead of Wiggs. Obviously impossible at the time, but this is an interesting idea.
Imagine Wiggs taking on the opponents best player with Jimmy and Dray lurking in the back. He’s the perfect 3rd/4th option too. I’d jump at that opportunity so fast
>>>Devin Booker on why it was important for him to play last night: “It took a real Suns fan to be in there tonight… I pay respect to the person that it was either their first time or maybe their last time ever seeing me play.”<<<
With all the talk about Kerr’s recent comments on the team’s rhythm and flow being off, I’m honestly baffled by how much of the blame is being dumped on Kuminga while Moody seems to be getting a free pass.
Our defense has actually held strong over the last 14 games—5th in net rating—but the offense has dropped off a cliff (we’re 16th). So if we’re going to point fingers, it makes more sense to look at the offensive side.
In those 14 games, Moody’s putting up 9 pts, 3 reb, and 1.6 ast on 37% FG and 30% from three (50 TS%) in 26 minutes a game. Kuminga? He’s averaging more across the board—12 pts, 4 reb, 2.2 ast—on 43% shooting and 18 3PT% (54 TS%), but he’s doing it in just 21 minutes. So he’s more productive in fewer minutes, but somehow he’s the problem?
Some people say Kuminga doesn’t do the “little things” that help the team flow better. But the best way we can guess at that is probably +/-… and Moody’s only slightly better there (+0.7 vs. Kuminga’s -0.4). And even that’s misleading when you realize Moody’s playing more with Curry, Podz, Dray, Butler(who are plus minus monsters)—while Kuminga’s much more with the bench.
Not saying Kuminga is blameless, but if we’re talking about rhythm and flow being off, it’s weird how the conversation skips right over Moody, who might actually be playing worse and under better conditions.
I think Kuminga is worse than Moody on defense. And then, in principle Kuminga is more of a creator than Moody, but recently I see lots of TOs for Kuminga and slightly better finishing for Moody. Both players are below average players if their 3p% is below 35%. JK is far below. I have doubts on Moody, but high hopes.
I think Moody will be the player we need him to be next year or the year after… which is not helpful for this year.
I think Kuminga will be an above average starter 3 years from now or more. Some players really need 7 years to get the game inside out…
The fact that Moody is a better defensive player is imho irrelevant when deterring our recent drop in form because, as I mentioned in my post our defensive has remained steadily elite during the last few weeks.
Instead, what has cratered is our offense and when we talk about THERE, Moody has been absolutely terrible and far worse than Kuminga.
When Kuminga plays, his usage rate is significantly higher, so you would expect him to put up better numbers. Moody is the 4th/5th option in the starting lineup (which has still been very effective and has like a +16 net rating) - when Kuminga plays with Jimmy and Draymond, it hasn't worked.
Moody's defense has also been very good, sometimes great (sometimes not, too), usually while guarding the other's team's first option (Brunson, Cade, Lillard, Luka, Booker). JK was awesome in the Lakers game, but has been very inconsistent.
I agree JK is getting too much blame, though. It's not his fault Draymond and Steph crapped the bed against the Spurs.
The fact that Moody is a better defensive player is imho irrelevant when deterring our recent drop in form because, as I mentioned in my post our defensive has remained steadily elite during the last few weeks.
Instead, what has cratered is our offense and when we talk about THERE, Moody has been absolutely terrible and far worse than Kuminga.
As for Kuminga having a higher usage, sure. Thats because Moody doesn’t try anything other than catch and shoot or attack closeouts. The lack of variety is why he can’t consistently generate shots and why when his shots off he plays terribly on offense (as he has these last couple weeks).
Kuminga is going to be criticized more as a 7 pick than moody. He is underperforming and has showed inconsistency for where he was drafted and what he thinks he’s supposed to be.
Moody is not expected and never was expected to be a star. For his role he is playing at par and at times better than his actual value. And this is after he’s basically had no to minimal minutes for most of his career here and this is his first time getting consistent run, unlike kuminga
I still argue that kuminga doesn’t have the feel or bbiq to be a superstar in this league. We can argue whether that’s due to his fit on this particular roster, coaching, etc.
This is exactly why we are raving about Quinten post. If he was a top five pick maybe we wouldn’t be as impressed. It’s all relative
I’m entirely confused, what does their respective draft picks status have to do with anything?
If we’re diving into the question of why we’ve been struggling the last few feels, does the fact that Kuminga was picked 7th and Moody was picked 14th in anyway change that analysis?
Let’s say Moody is responsible for 70% of the recent flow/rythm problems compare to JK’s 30%, do we criticize him less because he’s a 14th pick?
Agree on the question of draft place. I want all the players to be awesome regardless of where they were drafted. It's a pleasant surprise when a low pick like Post turns out better than expected, but that doesn't mean that if he plays lousy for a while I won't expect better.
>> Let’s say Moody is responsible for 70% of the recent flow/rythm problems
Why would we say something that is not in evidence? For quite a while there, the starting lineup with Moody was undefeated (like 15-0 or something like that), and the bad losses didn't start until JK came back. That doesn't mean that JK is *the problem*, but I have no idea why you are bringing Moses into this discussion. He has been JUST FINE.
I’m not saying that’s the case, I’m using it as an example to illustrate why their respective draft slots are irrelevant to determining who is responsible for our recent fall in form.
As for why I’m bringing Moody into the discussion, its because when I look around to see who in our rotation with significant minutes is performing poorly offensively (our offense being what has cratered recently), Moody’s extremely shitty play on offense (Moody’s putting up 9 pts, 3 reb, and 1.6 ast on 37% FG and 30% from three (50 TS%) in 26 minutes a game) is the greatest contributor and yet for some reason nobodies talking about it.
Because kuminga was always expected to be a better player with a better ceiling than moody. It’s all relative. And that’s why he gets more of the flack. He is expected to be better than moody. If moody has ups and downs it’s expected because he’s a role player drafted in the middle of the draft and not expected to be consistent. Kuminga was a top ten pick, heralded as the next star of the franchise. The production he is providing is not matching the perceived value of what many, including me, expect from him. If he is a star playing against the second unit of other teams off the bench he should be beasting.
Whether that is fair or not is a different question.
I agree that the recent struggles are moody, Podz struggling, bad lineups that are not allowing kuminga to thrive, and Draymond and curry being dipshits at times
""The most important thing is their confidence, not their record. People think Steph and Dray don't need confidence, but they all do. [Andrew] Wiggins didn't always have that and you could tell. Jimmy has provided that," a West executive said.
"I would not want to play them in any round."
Yeah, if they get there Dubs are dangerous in a series.
Oops, wrong sport, but man, Rory is six for six on threes. No one has *ever* started Augusta like that. Steph will be watching. It’s gotta be a sign. He will surely be inspired.
On a slow news day, I wanted to open for discussion something that's long been on my mind and came up in a chat below:
I think that the sports discussion landscape is wayyyyy too full of speculation about player motivation. I blame mostly the (annoying members of the) media, who love to do this, but fans certainly participate, as do coaches, and even players.
I'm referring to things like "He just got divorced, he won't play well." Or "The last time he was in this arena the fans booed him for switching teams and he will play extra well." Or "Now that he has signed for a lot of money he won't be motivated," or "The Warriors are thinking that if they can just get three out of five on this road trip they won't have to face the Lakers in the playoffs, and they remember what happened in 2004, so they have extra motivation tonight," or "I'm sure he wants that tenth triple double of the year."
Certainly everyone needs motivation, it is constantly there or not there to some extent.
But my own take is that the dominant motivations are the obvious ones: wanting to win, wanting to do well personally, wanting to use available skills, wanting to try hard in the moment.
The question of what motivates human beings is complex. Sports is very hard and NBA play is very fast: if a player is jostling for an offensive rebound, pushing hard, it hurts, can't grab it, now has to sprint back on defense and seems to my eyes to be going slowly, that might mean that he isn't quite as motivated as usual. And maybe that's true maybe not. But even if it's true, there SO MANY reasons it could be true. Maybe it's the divorce. Maybe he was distracted remembering what he read about Nietzsche. We can't know.
The most interesting is that I'm not always even sure the player knows. Supposing that before a game a player says "I am extra motivated because I always enjoy playing in front of my family." Sounds good, but is that the real reason that when there was a quick swing swing, you focused well and hit your three? How would we know? When you focus well and get an A on a test, is that because you want to impress your crush? Is it because you like looking smart? Is it because the material is important to you? What's the exact mix?
The negative of speculation isn't that bad. It can get ugly when it's personal and rude like "I'll bet his mistress told him to focus better." But I do find it pretty common that fans post assumptions about motivation that seem rooted in not much but vague opinion or personal bias To my mind, this also goes to the question of the extent to which celebrity lives ought to be private. I think that if at all possible, they should be. I view it as disrespectful to draw conclusions and make judgments about someone's personal life without even knowing them, whether or not they have great privilege.
With all due respect, after putting on my Inspector spectacles to introspectively circumspect the spectacle of speculation through the spectators perspective, in retrospect I suspect the specific aspects of spectators to prospectively speculate across the spectrum of spectacular speculations are to be, respectfully, expected, irrespective of any unsuspecting conspectus or bespectacled spectre of spectatorship, and any disrespect is pure speculation.
"When you stare too long into the void, the void stares back" - Friedrich Nietzsche "On the Genealogy of Warriors Basketball" - mid-1990's-early 2000's
On a serious note, assigning motivations to someone else's action(s) (especially negative ones) is one of the biggest problems in the world right now, especially with social media dominating discourse (and gambling being promoted heavily on pretty much every sports show, podcast, etc. - not here, though!)
Fundamental Attribution Error: The fundamental attribution error (FAE) is a cognitive bias where people tend to overemphasize personality or dispositional factors when explaining the behavior of others, while underestimating the influence of situational factors
"San Francisco has never seen a restaurant quite like Draymond Green's.... Meski is a new Afro Latin-Ethiopian restaurant from future Hall of Famer Draymond Green, acclaimed “Top Chef” alum Nelson German of Alamar Kitchen and Bar, and Guma Fassil of Meski’s Kitchen & Garden in Berkeley. Located at 1000 Larkin St., the new venture is a celebration of the African diaspora, black culture and the respective heritages of the two East Bay co-owners."
Your wondering in this post might encourage some speculating about Draymond's personal life business and what we have seen from his on court behavior...
In general I do agree with your commentary about fan speculation.
Yes you are right what motivates a human is very complex. Fans like to think they understand the games enough to speculate about a wide variety of factors in determining the outcomes, and I do think most of it is just pure speculation, usually unfounded with actual inside knowledge. I do agree that often an individual may not know what their motivation is, or especially how it may effect their performance.
I also agree with Eric A.'s comments about salary. Many salaries are pretty much public knowledge and open to debate and therefore speculation. Unfortunately that has become a prime motivational factor in our lives.
I used to frequent an Ethiopian place a few blocks from the Holland Tunnel in the mid 80s, and wow, what great food and culture. Eating with your fingers around a circular woven grass table was a perfect experience for a first date ( of which, I seemed to have had way too many)
I assumed that JK would reappear after the injury as a 2.0, playing for a huge contract by doing things like rebounding; first guy down the floor and relentlessly aggressive defense.
Nope.
It almost seems like he’s wanting the big payday first.
We could really use a 2022 Wiggins playoff version of Kuminga but I’m not holding my breath.
Instead of 2022 Wiggins, you get … Playoff Jimmy. And you get a much better version of Moody, and slightly (?) better version of Kuminga. Hopefully those two together can equal one Otto.
Plus, Podz is better than Poole, and Post is about equal to Bjelly?
Very true. Also we don’t like to admit it but GSW caught some lucky injury opponent breaks and favorable matchups in 2022, probably won’t now. Sure every year there are injuries and sure we played well, but I think we had a larger share of fortune then than we can bank on now.
I think his ankle is still bothering him, and opposing teams are now putting lengthy defenders to make it harder for him to get to the rim or make passes to his teammates. I've noticed that he was taking fadeaway jumpers when he was trying to drive to the basket on his own in the past several games.
Alas, pooryorick. Hard for a young developing player, doing 17ppg, to come back to an uncertain role and future as a 2.0 AFTER injuries that took him out for a long time.
IMO he’s not fully recovered from his ankle sprain and then got the additional pelvic contusion (who knew those were catching?). Plus the usual out of rhythm from sitting out almost three months in the middle of the season.
I’m not buying that Draymond is one the best big man passers ever. I believed it at one time, but he throws far too many passes away going for home runs and has myopic tunnel vision for Steph.
Bill Walton, Joker, Arvidas Sabonis and both Gasols are better passers, off the top of my head.
I think Dray is a unique case (when isn't he?) because his defensive value isn't as obvious as "ermagerd look at da blockz" that any halfbrained owner can observe, which is why Gobert gets $35M to Dray's $25M
Gobert is a 4 time defensive mvp winner and he’s making 35 million isn’t proof to you that defense isn’t valued anywhere near scoring. Beal is literally making 50 million per year.
Let’s look at the other defensive mvps! Jaren Jackson is making 26 million. Marcus Smart is averaging 13 million. It’s almost as if teams not properly calling defense is a general quite common trend.
Wasn't suggesting offense didnt paid significantly more than defense, just that Draymond is a bit of an oddity given his defensive skills are so non-traditional. And Bradley Beal's contract could also be considered an outlier considering the Wizards are just inept beyond belief.
It does seem like the current ceiling for defensive specialists is around the mid-$30M though - OG at $36M, Gobert at $35M, Bam at $34M - which is around some offense-first guys like Jamaal Murray, Ja, MPJ. More massive contracts to super duper offensive players relative to the top tier defensive guys, of course, but you can get paid a pretty comparable amount to the next tier of offensive players
I don't know what measy means but $25 mil isn't chump change. A guy that averages less than 10 points per game but makes that amount proves your point that teams only pay for scoring?
Not arguing that teams pay more for scoring. The original comment was that they don't pay for defense which is factually wrong. As for Beal, it is generally considered one of the worst contracts, so not really a fair example.
When you’re a top 5 defender of all time, and u get paid roughly the equivalent to Anfernee Simons/John Collins/Terry Rozier, yeah you’re absolute not getting paid commensurate to your actual value.
Herro is #27th in OEPM... with a 3.0. (And a 2.8 overall EPM vs Draymond's 1.8)
See what I'm getting at?
Defensive skill just doesn't vary as much from player to player as offense does.
Vassel is mediocre on both sides of the ball, not really an offensive standout. A bad contract so far.
Meanwhile TMIII is a two-way player who had overall PM numbers comparable to Draymond last year and, like the other two, is expected to improve some with age.
You’re explaining why offender skill should be called more, that’s fine.
It doesn’t change the fact that defensive skill just isn’t as valued and doesn’t get u as high of a contract. If ur a good offensive player and bad defender l, you’ll get a much higher contract than a good defender and a bad defenders.
Perhaps on a team that lacks defense, that’s how they get on the court.
However, on a team that’s lacked scoring while being good defensively, we’ve preached defense and rebounding to Kuminga but upgraded his playing time when he scores (because our team construction values that more).
JK's been good a few games, and mostly not other games (largely because of poor shooting).
I think, in general, his offensive decision making has looked a little better than earlier in the season, and he's starting to explore drive and dishes, which is a good sign. Defense, well, others are saying it's not good, and I'm not equipped to judge.
Regardless, at this point, I'd say Gui is ahead of him on the depth chart for the playoffs. Kerr has to go with the guys who are performing well (Gui's shooting is a little off, too, but not to the same degree).
As for what that means for JK on the team next year, at this point, I think it's all about the price. If it's $30 million a year, no way the Dubs match. If it's $20 mil, I'm guessing they take the flier on JK and see if he can continue to grow.
I don't agree with your conclusion about payday. From what I can tell, he's trying to do the right things, just not succeeding at the rate we'd like to see.
Interesting. If you're right, that's kind of good news, from my perspective. If Kuminga does well, great! If not, well he can point JK to those shifts when he benches him (important from a player/ego management perspective for JK).
My read on Gui not playing is a little different. I think Kerr was trying very hard to get JK sorted back out again after the injury, and Gui is the one who lost minutes as a result. Not sure that continues for the playoffs, though.
If Kuminga falters in the playoffs GP2 (and Santos) might take over pretty quickly but I expect Kuminga will get the opportunity to falter.
I have no idea if it is good news, personally. The Warriors are between a rock and a hard place, they need the size and athleticism that Kuminga represents but the player himself doesn't play the role they need him to play (perhaps because he isn't good enough for it, perhaps because he isn't interested in it). I don't really think they have enough to win as constructed if you remove Kuminga from the rotation, but I could also definitely see that being their best path to maximize their chances.
The only way Kuminga could contribute on offense right now would be to run him in Curry/Kuminga PnR as his shot seems to be broken and he is having trouble creating his own shot in the paint as well. If they could get him a clean runway to the basket he would probably be more effective. Maybe you could do it with Post, Hield, and Podz on the floor as the defenders wouldn't be able to pack the paint. Of course defense could then be an issue without either Green or Butler.
to my mind it's reasonable to look at a player's performance and criticize it or praise it. What doesn't work for me is to speculate about their expectations of pay, or maybe argue that they aren't motivated because they got paid. Because unless they say so or some other real evidence from a witness, it's completely speculative and unfair to the player's character.
You've never speculated on why Kerr makes certain lineup/rotation decisions and that it might have to do with personal preferences he has? That's not my recollection but I'll defer to you if you say you don't.
Yeah we speculate about everything else so I think it's puzzling that this particular thing would somehow be off-limits. Pay is a huge part of professional sports and it should be normal to discuss $-related issues, like someone's expectations, that they have clearly expressed through past salary negotiations, of how much they want to be paid.
Why should it be normal? Why would someone's private life be our topic for discussion? Aren't we here to discuss sports, not lives? I think character as expressed on the court is fair like "He argues and is a hothead with flagrant fouls." Otherwise, it seems to me that human beings have a right to their privacy. I feel the same way about any celebrity. Just because you're Taylor Swift doesn't mean I get to speculate about your sex life
1. NBA players don’t expect privacy about their salaries. These numbers are public knowledge.
2. NBA players talk openly about their salaries and that of other players. It’s normal for the players themselves and there’s no reason for us to think it’s shameful.
3. Any discussions of a team’s future require a precise discussion of the salaries the players make, due to the salary cap. It’s not reasonable to avoid the topic.
I'm not talking about salary itself. I'm talking about connecting salary to character and motivation. It is entirely, as you say, reasonable to discuss salary. It's a whole other game to say "Because he gets paid very little relative to the team, he doesn't try hard," or similar. We can't know that, and frequently it gets to be unpleasant speculation or dark hints about character, which I find unfair.
It's not part of your private life anymore when you're a public figure earning a multi million dollar salary from a publicly facing organization like a professional sports team. Yes, a normal person has more of an expectation of privacy than someone like a pro athlete or a famous musician or actor. That's how it always has been. I didn't make the world, I just live in it.
Edit: not to mention that someone's salary and their sex life are not equally private information, which I think should be fairly obvious.
I could not disagree more. I don't see why earning a lot of money means giving up private life. You didn't make the world, but we all live in it and can contribute positive or negative things. I'm no saint, I say stupid shit about public figures sometimes, it happens. But I think a society suffers when we other people for whatever reason, including if they have a high level of privilege. They're just people. Making 50 million a year means that you're rich, not "no longer human and therefore we can say whatever we want to about you." That's the world I live in .
Fair point. I was not speculating about motives (I think). It was more of an observation that guys can certainly be seen elevating their play as current contracts end.
I think it is more likely that JK has been deeply disappointed for some time about his usage and lack thereof in lineups.
I think that there are many personal reasons why a player might play well or not, but most sports talk -- certainly not just you -- has wayyyyyy too much speculation about motivations. "He still remembers when they scored 50 on him ten years ago" "Their coach is out for revenge," "He just got divorced his head's not in the right place" and all of that is speculative and off topic without evidence.
I do think it's very likely that JK has been disappointed about his usage, because he has said similar things in the past. But I don't know that he's waiting for any payday and that's impacting his play. is all.
But if he’s disappointed about his usage, that suggests he’s not listening, because everyone here knows what it takes for him to get more usage- Kerr has been open as hell about it. Rebound and play within himself. Don’t try to be the number one or even number two. Be an effective role player.
I don't agree that if he's disappointed about usage that suggests he's not listening. Almost every player ever who doesn't play starter minutes is disappointed about usage. You're naming things he can do to earn more minutes and that's fine, but that doesn't prove he's not listening.
“everyone here knows what it takes for him to get more usage- Kerr has been open as hell about it”
There was a time when Kuminga did play that role and played defense and hustled and got rebounds. Then he got benched in the playoffs and GP2 took his minutes.
It was only when he came back next year and became a more dominant scorer, dramatically outplayed Wiggins scoring wise for most of the season, and threw Kerr under the bus in the media did he finally get consistent minutes.
So what’s the lesson learned here for Kuminga? Defense/rebounding doesn’t get him on the floor with the Warriors,no matter what Kerr says, scoring does.
That’s only the lesson if you’ve been living under a rock and don’t know about the Jimmy acquisition. I feel like some of the Kuminga apologists low key resent Jimmy’s emergence, even though it’s clearly made the Dubs a far better team. Kuminga was probably gonna be a star on a worse Dubs team. Am I sad that didn’t come to fruition? Hell no.
In a different situation, the team could pour resources into a suitable development process. I’m sure there’s a way to maximize his talents on a winning team, but the last couple weeks have shown to me at least that such a process on this team is a distracting hindrance.
It has always been about the rebounding for me. Respect for guys coming into the League goes up exponentially when they are willing to fight under the boards.
New E1P thread coming at 8pm.
Somebody broke out the color crayons for those of us that need it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1jxmsi5/updated_playoff_scenarios/
So basically if the Clippers and Wolves win we’re 7. Otherwise we’re 6.
Crusty, you got Jaron Ennis winning tonight?
OT ???
I do, I think he's the best in the division now with Crawford moved up in weight. Stanionis should give him a pretty good test, even though he doesn't have much defense to speak of.
This was supposed to be a reply, but I'm posting it here because it's long, and I also want a resident cap-ologist to double-check and tell me where I messed up the rules:
It's complicated: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/08/hoops-rumors-glossary-sign-and-trade.html
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/05/hoops-rumors-glossary-base-year-compensation-4.html
Suppose the Warriors want KD (asking for a friend):
If I'm reading it correctly:
- Find a team that wants JK that's below the 1st apron (Charlotte?)
- If JK gets 4/$120, for example, his salary for Charlotte's purposes is about $30 mil, but while his outgoing salary would only be $15 mil for the Dubs, Charlotte would have to send out $30 mil.
This salary would go to the Suns.
- So far: Warriors $50 mil in (Durant), $15 mil out (JK) (need $35 mil out)
Suns: $30 mil in (from Charlotte), ~$50 mil out
Hornets: $30 mil in, $30 mil out (done?)
-So the Dubs need to send a net $15 mil somewhere ($20 mil can go to the Suns). Take your pick (But probably Brooklyn, Detroit, or maybe Utah): https://hoopshype.com/lists/2025-cap-space-landscape-the-outlook-for-each-nba-team/
The final trade might be (players only): GSW: Durant; Charlotte: JK; Suns: Nurkic (lol), Grant Williams, Moody, Podz, TJD; Nets: Buddy, TJD, Gui, Post
(This is just a salary-matching exercise, hopefully not the real trade, it would literally take most of the team as constructed)
Short answer: ask Perks.
Longer answer: please ask Perks.
Even longer answer: Base Year Compensation may factor into this? https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2022/06/hoops-rumors-glossary-base-year-compensation-2.html so please ask Perks.
Someone who knows better will clarify, but I don't think that ingoing/outgoing stuff applies to a sign and trade (I think that's for situations like, if we had traded Moody, whose new contract doesn't kick in until next season we only get credit for his current salary but the other team has to match his new one) if you sign and trade in the off season the new salary is the number. I'm just getting that from how I've seen it happen not from a great understanding of the rules (paging Perks ...) but I'm throwing that out there because then DFiB's point about what someone would want to pay JK would be the value of what we get back more or less.
bigger picture because, as you point out most big trades would have us giving up the whole team I expect the most that will happen next year is a TPMLE signing and then maybe a sign and trade with JK, as you are suggesting, depending on how he shows out the rest of the season.
Moody is (was really becuase he can't be traded until the offseason, after it expires) a poison pill.
For a sign-and-trade (according to article, maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm like you said?):
"If the player meets those criteria and is included in a sign-and-trade deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes is considered to be his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. For the team he is being signed-and-traded to, his incoming figure for matching purposes is simply his new full salary."
IMO- Moses Moody is a decent player with a decent contract (for both him and the Warriors). Not what I would characterize as a poison pill.
With the way his season is going, and with the state of the free agency market, and with JK’s status as a RFA, there’s NO WAY he gets anybody willing to give him $30M…
If it's less, then it becomes a bit easier to dump half of his salary (and less likely he signs an offer sheet, ruining a potential S&T)
My understanding is that there aren't many teams with cap space to sign him outright to much of anything. As a result he may be forced into a tough choice of taking the sign and trade to a capped team (or taking what the Ws offer in the case they want to keep him) or testing an open market without much "market".
Yeah, basically the Nets, Pistons (if it's under $20 mil??) (or maybe Utah but unlikely), plus any teams that clear space.
(ran out of space, sorry for the huge post)
We could trade Buddy (and maybe others) for a slightly bigger salary (since we're no long hard-capped after this season?), then trade that player to the Suns and not have to add Post, Gui, etc to the trade. Or we could S&T Looney, I guess.
>>>Quinten Post and Pat Spencer's hilarious reaction to Jimmy Butler passing the ball on a wide-open layup<<<
https://old.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1jxpujx/quinten_post_and_pat_spencers_hilarious_reaction/
Seriously, though, wtf was that? If I recall correctly, Draymond ended up hitting a 3 out of it, but still. Not even Andre was perverse enough to pass up a dunk like that.
Steph is listed as questionable vs LAC. GTD I'm guessing.
https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/referee/injury/Injury-Report_2025-04-12_06PM.pdf
No matter what happens tomorrow, this year was supposed to be a transition year, and yet we're essentially playing a pre-play-in (at home) for 6th in the last game of the season.
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOG5jMGRtMzBxdTFlYnBscnk4Njhvb2dmcmdwd29xdGZseXc0anJjayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rvaQRHCzisFeo/giphy.gif
It hasn't been perfect, but even team has some bad losses. I'm confident we can at least compete with the Clippers, and we somehow win, I think we win at least 3 games in a 3-6 matchup (if not 4). LGW!!!
Edit: By waiting to make a trade at the deadline, we messed up our seeding yeah, but sacrificed it for better trade opportunities this coming offseason. Next season's moves are truly make-or-break for the coming 2 seasons, so I'm glad there wasn't a panic move this season. If we do end up making the 1st round, it'll be an added bonus (for me at least). If we're in the same boat this time next season, then maybe we made some wrong moves (although those bad moves will probably have been made this June/July, not getting Butler).
I think we have our core 7 or 8 for next year, TBH.
If you're thinking trade, who exactly can we send out to match salaries? They guys who make anything are not ones we want to trade, except possibly Hield.
And GP2, Loon, and JK are all FAs, so that would have to be a S&T, for which it is probably difficult to find a partner since it would hardcap the receiving team. Look at Dallas' woes this year.
Teams might hard cap for jk because I think it penalizes more at certain total salaries than others - but u realize I don’t know that level of detail
Not that I'm aware. My understanding is that if a team takes an S&T player, they are hardcapped at the first apron (the same level we've been capped at this year).
So, for a team that is well below the first apron, it isn't an issue, but for anyone near or above the first apron, it's probably a challenge to stay under that level and take a S&T FA.
Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself, but this off-season, let’s sign-and-trade JK for Wiggs.
That feels like a realistic best(-ish) case scenario.
I’ve wondered a little about Cleveland, as well, an idea that relies upon Kenny Atkinson thinking he can achieve with Kuminga what Steve could not. One or two of Strus, Okoro, and/or Wade? Not as appealing as Wiggins, but there could be something there: Strus has played well with Butler before; Okoro seems more at peace with his 3/D destiny than JK does at this point; Wade offers some size and shooting for roughly the TPMLE. (Might have been more realistic before they acquired De’Andre Hunter, though.)
I was just wishing today that we had somehow trading Kuminga for Butler instead of Wiggs. Obviously impossible at the time, but this is an interesting idea.
Imagine Wiggs taking on the opponents best player with Jimmy and Dray lurking in the back. He’s the perfect 3rd/4th option too. I’d jump at that opportunity so fast
I already said that. (so, of course, I agree)
I said it first.
I thought it before that even
Is there a good search engine for DNHQ archives :)
>>>Devin Booker on why it was important for him to play last night: “It took a real Suns fan to be in there tonight… I pay respect to the person that it was either their first time or maybe their last time ever seeing me play.”<<<
https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1jxmej7/devin_booker_on_why_it_was_important_for_him_to/
'Last time.' Ouch. Suns are a mess right now. Durant preferred to be there than back with the Dubs...
Ouch? I didn't interpret it as "last time I play for the Suns", more like last time the fan is able to go to a Suns game
With all the talk about Kerr’s recent comments on the team’s rhythm and flow being off, I’m honestly baffled by how much of the blame is being dumped on Kuminga while Moody seems to be getting a free pass.
Our defense has actually held strong over the last 14 games—5th in net rating—but the offense has dropped off a cliff (we’re 16th). So if we’re going to point fingers, it makes more sense to look at the offensive side.
In those 14 games, Moody’s putting up 9 pts, 3 reb, and 1.6 ast on 37% FG and 30% from three (50 TS%) in 26 minutes a game. Kuminga? He’s averaging more across the board—12 pts, 4 reb, 2.2 ast—on 43% shooting and 18 3PT% (54 TS%), but he’s doing it in just 21 minutes. So he’s more productive in fewer minutes, but somehow he’s the problem?
Some people say Kuminga doesn’t do the “little things” that help the team flow better. But the best way we can guess at that is probably +/-… and Moody’s only slightly better there (+0.7 vs. Kuminga’s -0.4). And even that’s misleading when you realize Moody’s playing more with Curry, Podz, Dray, Butler(who are plus minus monsters)—while Kuminga’s much more with the bench.
Not saying Kuminga is blameless, but if we’re talking about rhythm and flow being off, it’s weird how the conversation skips right over Moody, who might actually be playing worse and under better conditions.
I think Kuminga is worse than Moody on defense. And then, in principle Kuminga is more of a creator than Moody, but recently I see lots of TOs for Kuminga and slightly better finishing for Moody. Both players are below average players if their 3p% is below 35%. JK is far below. I have doubts on Moody, but high hopes.
I think Moody will be the player we need him to be next year or the year after… which is not helpful for this year.
I think Kuminga will be an above average starter 3 years from now or more. Some players really need 7 years to get the game inside out…
The fact that Moody is a better defensive player is imho irrelevant when deterring our recent drop in form because, as I mentioned in my post our defensive has remained steadily elite during the last few weeks.
Instead, what has cratered is our offense and when we talk about THERE, Moody has been absolutely terrible and far worse than Kuminga.
I agree with a portion of your post, specifically
>> I’m honestly baffled
I mean, we watch the games, Moody is doing fine. Could be better in some areas, could be much worse in most.
9 pts and 1.6 ast in 26 mpg while shooting 37 % from the field and 30% from three is doing fine?
Your definition of fine is quite different from mine.
When Kuminga plays, his usage rate is significantly higher, so you would expect him to put up better numbers. Moody is the 4th/5th option in the starting lineup (which has still been very effective and has like a +16 net rating) - when Kuminga plays with Jimmy and Draymond, it hasn't worked.
Moody's defense has also been very good, sometimes great (sometimes not, too), usually while guarding the other's team's first option (Brunson, Cade, Lillard, Luka, Booker). JK was awesome in the Lakers game, but has been very inconsistent.
I agree JK is getting too much blame, though. It's not his fault Draymond and Steph crapped the bed against the Spurs.
The fact that Moody is a better defensive player is imho irrelevant when deterring our recent drop in form because, as I mentioned in my post our defensive has remained steadily elite during the last few weeks.
Instead, what has cratered is our offense and when we talk about THERE, Moody has been absolutely terrible and far worse than Kuminga.
As for Kuminga having a higher usage, sure. Thats because Moody doesn’t try anything other than catch and shoot or attack closeouts. The lack of variety is why he can’t consistently generate shots and why when his shots off he plays terribly on offense (as he has these last couple weeks).
Kuminga is going to be criticized more as a 7 pick than moody. He is underperforming and has showed inconsistency for where he was drafted and what he thinks he’s supposed to be.
Moody is not expected and never was expected to be a star. For his role he is playing at par and at times better than his actual value. And this is after he’s basically had no to minimal minutes for most of his career here and this is his first time getting consistent run, unlike kuminga
I still argue that kuminga doesn’t have the feel or bbiq to be a superstar in this league. We can argue whether that’s due to his fit on this particular roster, coaching, etc.
This is exactly why we are raving about Quinten post. If he was a top five pick maybe we wouldn’t be as impressed. It’s all relative
I’m entirely confused, what does their respective draft picks status have to do with anything?
If we’re diving into the question of why we’ve been struggling the last few feels, does the fact that Kuminga was picked 7th and Moody was picked 14th in anyway change that analysis?
Let’s say Moody is responsible for 70% of the recent flow/rythm problems compare to JK’s 30%, do we criticize him less because he’s a 14th pick?
Agree on the question of draft place. I want all the players to be awesome regardless of where they were drafted. It's a pleasant surprise when a low pick like Post turns out better than expected, but that doesn't mean that if he plays lousy for a while I won't expect better.
>> Let’s say Moody is responsible for 70% of the recent flow/rythm problems
Why would we say something that is not in evidence? For quite a while there, the starting lineup with Moody was undefeated (like 15-0 or something like that), and the bad losses didn't start until JK came back. That doesn't mean that JK is *the problem*, but I have no idea why you are bringing Moses into this discussion. He has been JUST FINE.
I’m not saying that’s the case, I’m using it as an example to illustrate why their respective draft slots are irrelevant to determining who is responsible for our recent fall in form.
As for why I’m bringing Moody into the discussion, its because when I look around to see who in our rotation with significant minutes is performing poorly offensively (our offense being what has cratered recently), Moody’s extremely shitty play on offense (Moody’s putting up 9 pts, 3 reb, and 1.6 ast on 37% FG and 30% from three (50 TS%) in 26 minutes a game) is the greatest contributor and yet for some reason nobodies talking about it.
Because kuminga was always expected to be a better player with a better ceiling than moody. It’s all relative. And that’s why he gets more of the flack. He is expected to be better than moody. If moody has ups and downs it’s expected because he’s a role player drafted in the middle of the draft and not expected to be consistent. Kuminga was a top ten pick, heralded as the next star of the franchise. The production he is providing is not matching the perceived value of what many, including me, expect from him. If he is a star playing against the second unit of other teams off the bench he should be beasting.
Whether that is fair or not is a different question.
I agree that the recent struggles are moody, Podz struggling, bad lineups that are not allowing kuminga to thrive, and Draymond and curry being dipshits at times
Edwards tech has been rescinded. No Suspension for him.
Predictable.
ESPN insider (pro tip if you have a vpn set it to Canada to read for free)
NBA playoffs intel: Examining Lakers, Warriors, West contenders
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/44617316/nba-playoff-intel-doom-lakers-warriors-grizzlies-postseason-runs
""The most important thing is their confidence, not their record. People think Steph and Dray don't need confidence, but they all do. [Andrew] Wiggins didn't always have that and you could tell. Jimmy has provided that," a West executive said.
"I would not want to play them in any round."
Yeah, if they get there Dubs are dangerous in a series.
The most important thing is health ...
yes, NBA champs are great teams that are also generally healthy it seems.
But also fear
noooobody expects this dynasty’s 5th ring!
Princess Bride? I missed it the first time.
edit: Ah, Monty P
I thought it was surprise.
ruthless efficency has won us 4 titles so far. not nice red uniforms, though (luckily)
No, that's what makes a dog yelp.
Rory for 3!!!
OT???
Oops, wrong sport, but man, Rory is six for six on threes. No one has *ever* started Augusta like that. Steph will be watching. It’s gotta be a sign. He will surely be inspired.
You're talking about that sport where they stun worms into submission with clubs and spray a lot of sand around, right?
go-karting?
He's gonna beat out Ant for 3s made!
On a slow news day, I wanted to open for discussion something that's long been on my mind and came up in a chat below:
I think that the sports discussion landscape is wayyyyy too full of speculation about player motivation. I blame mostly the (annoying members of the) media, who love to do this, but fans certainly participate, as do coaches, and even players.
I'm referring to things like "He just got divorced, he won't play well." Or "The last time he was in this arena the fans booed him for switching teams and he will play extra well." Or "Now that he has signed for a lot of money he won't be motivated," or "The Warriors are thinking that if they can just get three out of five on this road trip they won't have to face the Lakers in the playoffs, and they remember what happened in 2004, so they have extra motivation tonight," or "I'm sure he wants that tenth triple double of the year."
Certainly everyone needs motivation, it is constantly there or not there to some extent.
But my own take is that the dominant motivations are the obvious ones: wanting to win, wanting to do well personally, wanting to use available skills, wanting to try hard in the moment.
The question of what motivates human beings is complex. Sports is very hard and NBA play is very fast: if a player is jostling for an offensive rebound, pushing hard, it hurts, can't grab it, now has to sprint back on defense and seems to my eyes to be going slowly, that might mean that he isn't quite as motivated as usual. And maybe that's true maybe not. But even if it's true, there SO MANY reasons it could be true. Maybe it's the divorce. Maybe he was distracted remembering what he read about Nietzsche. We can't know.
The most interesting is that I'm not always even sure the player knows. Supposing that before a game a player says "I am extra motivated because I always enjoy playing in front of my family." Sounds good, but is that the real reason that when there was a quick swing swing, you focused well and hit your three? How would we know? When you focus well and get an A on a test, is that because you want to impress your crush? Is it because you like looking smart? Is it because the material is important to you? What's the exact mix?
The negative of speculation isn't that bad. It can get ugly when it's personal and rude like "I'll bet his mistress told him to focus better." But I do find it pretty common that fans post assumptions about motivation that seem rooted in not much but vague opinion or personal bias To my mind, this also goes to the question of the extent to which celebrity lives ought to be private. I think that if at all possible, they should be. I view it as disrespectful to draw conclusions and make judgments about someone's personal life without even knowing them, whether or not they have great privilege.
With all due respect, after putting on my Inspector spectacles to introspectively circumspect the spectacle of speculation through the spectators perspective, in retrospect I suspect the specific aspects of spectators to prospectively speculate across the spectrum of spectacular speculations are to be, respectfully, expected, irrespective of any unsuspecting conspectus or bespectacled spectre of spectatorship, and any disrespect is pure speculation.
"When you stare too long into the void, the void stares back" - Friedrich Nietzsche "On the Genealogy of Warriors Basketball" - mid-1990's-early 2000's
On a serious note, assigning motivations to someone else's action(s) (especially negative ones) is one of the biggest problems in the world right now, especially with social media dominating discourse (and gambling being promoted heavily on pretty much every sports show, podcast, etc. - not here, though!)
Amen
Fundamental Attribution Error: The fundamental attribution error (FAE) is a cognitive bias where people tend to overemphasize personality or dispositional factors when explaining the behavior of others, while underestimating the influence of situational factors
Well cited
While you're waiting for an actual game.....
"San Francisco has never seen a restaurant quite like Draymond Green's.... Meski is a new Afro Latin-Ethiopian restaurant from future Hall of Famer Draymond Green, acclaimed “Top Chef” alum Nelson German of Alamar Kitchen and Bar, and Guma Fassil of Meski’s Kitchen & Garden in Berkeley. Located at 1000 Larkin St., the new venture is a celebration of the African diaspora, black culture and the respective heritages of the two East Bay co-owners."
https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/warriors-draymond-green-sf-restaurant-needed-20259720.php
I wonder what happens if you argue with the waiter.
You get a technical and/or ejection?
Your wondering in this post might encourage some speculating about Draymond's personal life business and what we have seen from his on court behavior...
In general I do agree with your commentary about fan speculation.
Yes you are right what motivates a human is very complex. Fans like to think they understand the games enough to speculate about a wide variety of factors in determining the outcomes, and I do think most of it is just pure speculation, usually unfounded with actual inside knowledge. I do agree that often an individual may not know what their motivation is, or especially how it may effect their performance.
I also agree with Eric A.'s comments about salary. Many salaries are pretty much public knowledge and open to debate and therefore speculation. Unfortunately that has become a prime motivational factor in our lives.
Love me some Alamar out in Oakland and Ethiopian food is tops. I'll have to take my girl here.
And Shalimar in Fremont!
Njera and tej for the win! Hope to check it out someday.
Strongly recommend cafe colluci San Pablo near Powell. Years of recognition and quality. Good vegetarian also
I used to frequent an Ethiopian place a few blocks from the Holland Tunnel in the mid 80s, and wow, what great food and culture. Eating with your fingers around a circular woven grass table was a perfect experience for a first date ( of which, I seemed to have had way too many)
I’ll definitely check it out.
I assumed that JK would reappear after the injury as a 2.0, playing for a huge contract by doing things like rebounding; first guy down the floor and relentlessly aggressive defense.
Nope.
It almost seems like he’s wanting the big payday first.
We could really use a 2022 Wiggins playoff version of Kuminga but I’m not holding my breath.
Instead of 2022 Wiggins, you get … Playoff Jimmy. And you get a much better version of Moody, and slightly (?) better version of Kuminga. Hopefully those two together can equal one Otto.
Plus, Podz is better than Poole, and Post is about equal to Bjelly?
preach it! preach it! I believe. I believe.
League is tons better, though, IMHO, particularly the West. I don't think the 2022 team would do much this year.
Very true. Also we don’t like to admit it but GSW caught some lucky injury opponent breaks and favorable matchups in 2022, probably won’t now. Sure every year there are injuries and sure we played well, but I think we had a larger share of fortune then than we can bank on now.
I think his ankle is still bothering him, and opposing teams are now putting lengthy defenders to make it harder for him to get to the rim or make passes to his teammates. I've noticed that he was taking fadeaway jumpers when he was trying to drive to the basket on his own in the past several games.
Alas, pooryorick. Hard for a young developing player, doing 17ppg, to come back to an uncertain role and future as a 2.0 AFTER injuries that took him out for a long time.
IMO he’s not fully recovered from his ankle sprain and then got the additional pelvic contusion (who knew those were catching?). Plus the usual out of rhythm from sitting out almost three months in the middle of the season.
Yes, Abs.
Alas, you’ve kept old Yorick in check.
Seriously it's like a pelvic contusion pandemic
Teams don’t pay for defense, hustle, rebounding. They pay for scoring.
Don’t believe me? Look at Looney/GP2.
There's this guy named Draymond. Ever heard of him?
Draymond is arguably a top five defender all time and his two contracts through his prime was a measy 17 million per year and 25 million per year.
This is on top of Draymond being one of the greatest big man passers of all time and a great leader.
Draymond literally proves my point.
I’m not buying that Draymond is one the best big man passers ever. I believed it at one time, but he throws far too many passes away going for home runs and has myopic tunnel vision for Steph.
Bill Walton, Joker, Arvidas Sabonis and both Gasols are better passers, off the top of my head.
Bird
I think Dray is a unique case (when isn't he?) because his defensive value isn't as obvious as "ermagerd look at da blockz" that any halfbrained owner can observe, which is why Gobert gets $35M to Dray's $25M
Gobert is a 4 time defensive mvp winner and he’s making 35 million isn’t proof to you that defense isn’t valued anywhere near scoring. Beal is literally making 50 million per year.
Let’s look at the other defensive mvps! Jaren Jackson is making 26 million. Marcus Smart is averaging 13 million. It’s almost as if teams not properly calling defense is a general quite common trend.
Wasn't suggesting offense didnt paid significantly more than defense, just that Draymond is a bit of an oddity given his defensive skills are so non-traditional. And Bradley Beal's contract could also be considered an outlier considering the Wizards are just inept beyond belief.
It does seem like the current ceiling for defensive specialists is around the mid-$30M though - OG at $36M, Gobert at $35M, Bam at $34M - which is around some offense-first guys like Jamaal Murray, Ja, MPJ. More massive contracts to super duper offensive players relative to the top tier defensive guys, of course, but you can get paid a pretty comparable amount to the next tier of offensive players
I don't know what measy means but $25 mil isn't chump change. A guy that averages less than 10 points per game but makes that amount proves your point that teams only pay for scoring?
I mean in a world where Beal gets paid double, yeah scoring is clearly being paid more
Not arguing that teams pay more for scoring. The original comment was that they don't pay for defense which is factually wrong. As for Beal, it is generally considered one of the worst contracts, so not really a fair example.
When you’re a top 5 defender of all time, and u get paid roughly the equivalent to Anfernee Simons/John Collins/Terry Rozier, yeah you’re absolute not getting paid commensurate to your actual value.
Teams pay for quality.
Great defenders get paid, but there's twice as much variance in ORPM as DRPM, so the best attackers make the most.
Great defenders get paid at a far lesser rate than even mid level scorers.
Draymond, an all time great defense, is getting paid less than Vassel/Murphy/Herro for example. They’re not even top 5 in the league right now.
It’s just a fact of the matter that Kuminga’s playing time has largely been tied to when he starts scoring a bunch.
Draymond is #3 in the NBA in DEPM... at 2.8.
Herro is #27th in OEPM... with a 3.0. (And a 2.8 overall EPM vs Draymond's 1.8)
See what I'm getting at?
Defensive skill just doesn't vary as much from player to player as offense does.
Vassel is mediocre on both sides of the ball, not really an offensive standout. A bad contract so far.
Meanwhile TMIII is a two-way player who had overall PM numbers comparable to Draymond last year and, like the other two, is expected to improve some with age.
You’re explaining why offender skill should be called more, that’s fine.
It doesn’t change the fact that defensive skill just isn’t as valued and doesn’t get u as high of a contract. If ur a good offensive player and bad defender l, you’ll get a much higher contract than a good defender and a bad defenders.
But that's the way a young player gets on the court more. Then you continue to get better on O to earn that payday.
Perhaps on a team that lacks defense, that’s how they get on the court.
However, on a team that’s lacked scoring while being good defensively, we’ve preached defense and rebounding to Kuminga but upgraded his playing time when he scores (because our team construction values that more).
JK's been good a few games, and mostly not other games (largely because of poor shooting).
I think, in general, his offensive decision making has looked a little better than earlier in the season, and he's starting to explore drive and dishes, which is a good sign. Defense, well, others are saying it's not good, and I'm not equipped to judge.
Regardless, at this point, I'd say Gui is ahead of him on the depth chart for the playoffs. Kerr has to go with the guys who are performing well (Gui's shooting is a little off, too, but not to the same degree).
As for what that means for JK on the team next year, at this point, I think it's all about the price. If it's $30 million a year, no way the Dubs match. If it's $20 mil, I'm guessing they take the flier on JK and see if he can continue to grow.
I don't agree with your conclusion about payday. From what I can tell, he's trying to do the right things, just not succeeding at the rate we'd like to see.
If the Warriors make the playoffs, Kuminga is getting the first crack at the rotation.
Santos barely played last night. He might be who Kerr prefers deep down but Kerr doesn't go to preference until he needs to.
Interesting. If you're right, that's kind of good news, from my perspective. If Kuminga does well, great! If not, well he can point JK to those shifts when he benches him (important from a player/ego management perspective for JK).
My read on Gui not playing is a little different. I think Kerr was trying very hard to get JK sorted back out again after the injury, and Gui is the one who lost minutes as a result. Not sure that continues for the playoffs, though.
If Kuminga falters in the playoffs GP2 (and Santos) might take over pretty quickly but I expect Kuminga will get the opportunity to falter.
I have no idea if it is good news, personally. The Warriors are between a rock and a hard place, they need the size and athleticism that Kuminga represents but the player himself doesn't play the role they need him to play (perhaps because he isn't good enough for it, perhaps because he isn't interested in it). I don't really think they have enough to win as constructed if you remove Kuminga from the rotation, but I could also definitely see that being their best path to maximize their chances.
The only way Kuminga could contribute on offense right now would be to run him in Curry/Kuminga PnR as his shot seems to be broken and he is having trouble creating his own shot in the paint as well. If they could get him a clean runway to the basket he would probably be more effective. Maybe you could do it with Post, Hield, and Podz on the floor as the defenders wouldn't be able to pack the paint. Of course defense could then be an issue without either Green or Butler.
to my mind it's reasonable to look at a player's performance and criticize it or praise it. What doesn't work for me is to speculate about their expectations of pay, or maybe argue that they aren't motivated because they got paid. Because unless they say so or some other real evidence from a witness, it's completely speculative and unfair to the player's character.
Speculation is a key part of fandom tbh
It's not for me.
You've never speculated on why Kerr makes certain lineup/rotation decisions and that it might have to do with personal preferences he has? That's not my recollection but I'll defer to you if you say you don't.
Yeah we speculate about everything else so I think it's puzzling that this particular thing would somehow be off-limits. Pay is a huge part of professional sports and it should be normal to discuss $-related issues, like someone's expectations, that they have clearly expressed through past salary negotiations, of how much they want to be paid.
Why should it be normal? Why would someone's private life be our topic for discussion? Aren't we here to discuss sports, not lives? I think character as expressed on the court is fair like "He argues and is a hothead with flagrant fouls." Otherwise, it seems to me that human beings have a right to their privacy. I feel the same way about any celebrity. Just because you're Taylor Swift doesn't mean I get to speculate about your sex life
1. NBA players don’t expect privacy about their salaries. These numbers are public knowledge.
2. NBA players talk openly about their salaries and that of other players. It’s normal for the players themselves and there’s no reason for us to think it’s shameful.
3. Any discussions of a team’s future require a precise discussion of the salaries the players make, due to the salary cap. It’s not reasonable to avoid the topic.
I'm not talking about salary itself. I'm talking about connecting salary to character and motivation. It is entirely, as you say, reasonable to discuss salary. It's a whole other game to say "Because he gets paid very little relative to the team, he doesn't try hard," or similar. We can't know that, and frequently it gets to be unpleasant speculation or dark hints about character, which I find unfair.
It's not part of your private life anymore when you're a public figure earning a multi million dollar salary from a publicly facing organization like a professional sports team. Yes, a normal person has more of an expectation of privacy than someone like a pro athlete or a famous musician or actor. That's how it always has been. I didn't make the world, I just live in it.
Edit: not to mention that someone's salary and their sex life are not equally private information, which I think should be fairly obvious.
I could not disagree more. I don't see why earning a lot of money means giving up private life. You didn't make the world, but we all live in it and can contribute positive or negative things. I'm no saint, I say stupid shit about public figures sometimes, it happens. But I think a society suffers when we other people for whatever reason, including if they have a high level of privilege. They're just people. Making 50 million a year means that you're rich, not "no longer human and therefore we can say whatever we want to about you." That's the world I live in .
Fair point. I was not speculating about motives (I think). It was more of an observation that guys can certainly be seen elevating their play as current contracts end.
I think it is more likely that JK has been deeply disappointed for some time about his usage and lack thereof in lineups.
I think that there are many personal reasons why a player might play well or not, but most sports talk -- certainly not just you -- has wayyyyyy too much speculation about motivations. "He still remembers when they scored 50 on him ten years ago" "Their coach is out for revenge," "He just got divorced his head's not in the right place" and all of that is speculative and off topic without evidence.
I do think it's very likely that JK has been disappointed about his usage, because he has said similar things in the past. But I don't know that he's waiting for any payday and that's impacting his play. is all.
But if he’s disappointed about his usage, that suggests he’s not listening, because everyone here knows what it takes for him to get more usage- Kerr has been open as hell about it. Rebound and play within himself. Don’t try to be the number one or even number two. Be an effective role player.
I don't agree that if he's disappointed about usage that suggests he's not listening. Almost every player ever who doesn't play starter minutes is disappointed about usage. You're naming things he can do to earn more minutes and that's fine, but that doesn't prove he's not listening.
“everyone here knows what it takes for him to get more usage- Kerr has been open as hell about it”
There was a time when Kuminga did play that role and played defense and hustled and got rebounds. Then he got benched in the playoffs and GP2 took his minutes.
It was only when he came back next year and became a more dominant scorer, dramatically outplayed Wiggins scoring wise for most of the season, and threw Kerr under the bus in the media did he finally get consistent minutes.
So what’s the lesson learned here for Kuminga? Defense/rebounding doesn’t get him on the floor with the Warriors,no matter what Kerr says, scoring does.
That’s only the lesson if you’ve been living under a rock and don’t know about the Jimmy acquisition. I feel like some of the Kuminga apologists low key resent Jimmy’s emergence, even though it’s clearly made the Dubs a far better team. Kuminga was probably gonna be a star on a worse Dubs team. Am I sad that didn’t come to fruition? Hell no.
In a different situation, the team could pour resources into a suitable development process. I’m sure there’s a way to maximize his talents on a winning team, but the last couple weeks have shown to me at least that such a process on this team is a distracting hindrance.
It has always been about the rebounding for me. Respect for guys coming into the League goes up exponentially when they are willing to fight under the boards.
Yes, see Gui Santos.