DNHQ After Dark is back with a sentimental victory lap for a Maple Jordan stan. Before we go to BUTLERMANIA, Daniel Hardee pays tribute to a "bust"-turned-champion who will live forever in GSW.
If I were designing a perfect basketball player for these times, I would start with youth, since I want to build a franchise around him. Let's say 20, 21 -- but not new to the game. What if he had professional experience overseas already? Then of course I'd want height. It's the NBA, height just matters. Let's make the guy 7'4" but not stumpy. I mean, since I can have anything I want, it's a fictional scenario, I'll say an ... 8'0" wing span. Lol. But not one of these lumbering big guys. I want the player to be able to run, spin, jump, be agile. I get it, I know it's never going to happen.
But this isn't 1973, either. I don't just want Kareem, great as he was. I want a guy who can hit the three, even the deep three. I want him to be able to hit mid-range, floaters, all of it. And still be able to dunk over everyone on offense, because remember I made him super long.
On defense I'd want him to use that length and quick instincts to not only block a great many shots, but to deter anyone from even trying him inside. Steals, also. OK, I get it, I'm asking for everything.
But that's the physical stuff. Basketball is also mental. I want a guy who really wants to win, a competitor, fierce.
It also matters where you play. I'd want him on a rebuilding team so he doesn't have to adjust his game to some fading superstar, but can try out different things. Also, give him a great coach who has all the teaching skills, but is also always willing to innovate.
Be nice if my daydream ideal player spoke French but I'm not THAT picky. Anyway, it's a lazy Saturday and I was just imagining things.
Among my various daydreams, I wondered once what Olajuwon would do in today's game.
Didn't take 3s, of course, but of all the old-school greats, he'd be the one I think most likely to adapt to the modern game. (Kareem might give him a run for his money, I guess).
It is amazing that we are even questioning that guys like the Dream and Kareem could play today.
Are we saying they could only play if they started shooting 3’s?
Isn’t it comical that QP is playing and we have doubts about those guys.
This is where I draw the line on 5’s shooting 3’s.
Kerr….sorry Kareem but we are sending you down to the G league for 3 months to practice shooting 3’s, you are messing up the spacing for our all time greats like JK, MM and GUI. You get better at it and you can come backup QP.
We won a title a couple years ago with Loon as our 5.
Dallas won the West last year with non shooting 5’s.
Should we hang a banner for the DLo-Wiggs-JK trade? Or should we just make a solid gold replica of the phone used to complete the trade and put it next to the phone used to trade Monta for Bogut and the one used to reject Klay + Dray for Love (Wiggs technically deserves something for that, too)?
While it's certainly not true of ALL games we lost this year, one frequent pattern observed revolves around someone from the opponent (often a role player) going absolutely nuclear in striping 3s, and our team's inability to respond in kind. I don't see how Jimmy helps in this regard, does he really defend the perimeter that much better than Andrew? Can he even play as many minutes as Wiggs?
We also lost several of the players who were occasionally able to return the favor, in Wiggs and occasionally Lindy and even Dennis.
Trading 3s for 2s is not a winning formula unless we can hit the latter at a very high rate.
At best, the trade leaves us even on perimeter defense and maybe slightly improved on interior offense, while making us worse on perimeter offense. Time will tell.
While I reserve the right to hate this trade if it ends up leading to the departure of JK, I really don't think that's the plan. I think, after getting under the 1st apron and cleaning up their books, the Dubs are willing to shell out some luxury tax dollars in order to pay back Curry in his final years all while continuing their 'second timeline', albeit with a little less fanfare. This aside, the more I look at this trade the more I like it. And that says a lot considering losing out on some of the guys who would have been available in this year's draft.
Our team has been flat-lining all year. If Dray is the heart of this team, then we need a pace-maker. How many code-blue 4th quarters have we had to endure this year? If there is anyone in this league who can help shock this team back into form, it's Jimmy Buckets, or as I refer to him, The Human Defibrillator.
I think if anything, JK surviving this round of trades was a real show of support from the team. Then again, he was in a lot of trade talks, and not just rumored, but stuff is coming out. And also: how big an endorsement of your game is it if they go get a guy who plays a LOT like you? Duplicative, or synergystic? That's our big question.
One positive thing (OK, two) I will say about JB ... he's a multi-tooled player, and with very high BBIQ.
If Kuminga's in the lineup and needs to be prowling around the low block to be effective, JB's going to figure out where he needs to be to get out of the way, and be able to get him a pass.
It would be really something if the Warriors of all teams won a title playing old school hoops.
Not relying much on 3’s but shooting a high pct on 2’s and getting to the ft line while playing really good D.
JB, JK, DG, Looney. Scoring less, giving up less. Live by the 3 die by the 3 for everyone else. A fantasy but I don’t see us out 3ing people anymore.
At best we make enough and have a few key games where we make more, but this is looking like a different kind of team. Tough, gritty. 98 - 95 vs 118 - 115.
> It would be really something if the Warriors of all teams won a title playing old school hoops.
Realistically, it’s impossible mathematically. Getting up hella threes (before the rest of the league realized they needed to) is the biggest reason the Warriors were able to average 70 wins in Kerr’s first couple seasons. Rolling out an offense today that doesn’t get up a lot off threes is like coming into every game with a 10-15 point handicap.
I don’t know what the exact minimum required number of 3FGA is to be competitive in today’s NBA, but I suspect it’s at least double or the amount you would need to be described as “old school.”
In Kerr’s first couple seasons he happened to have the best 3 point shooters in history playing in a league that had not yet been converted to the 3 point shooting religion. That advantage no longer exists. Hell, there are how many teams today that shoot it better than us?
There are also a lot of games lost BECAUSE a team throws up a bunch of 3’s. Look at the box scores everyday. Surprise loss, 7-35 from 3.
I understand the 3 point math and I hate it. It is ironic because math is certain. 1+1 is 2. The problem is Steph or whoever goes 8-12 today and 1-12 tomorrow. The mathematical certainty on any given day is out the window.
And I’m saying you’re dooming yourself to be an NBA bottom-feeder if you shoot that few. There’s a reason literally every team in the NBA gets up between 31 and 48 threes a game.
We don’t have to love it as fans — there’s definitely an argument that the “efficiency trap” makes the game more homogenous and less fun to watch, as with the increasing emphasis on the “three true outcomes” in baseball. But if you want to win games and not be left behind mathematically, you do you actually need to get with the program.
I understand what you are saying. I just have my doubts about this team shooting it well enough. Look at there 4 best players, Steph, JB, JK, DG and add Looney as there best playoff tested 5 if DG is not playing the 5.
Hopefully Hield, MM and Podz will surprise to the upside because they need something they aren’t getting now.
Sure, but devil is in the details. I'm sure we agree that if the Dubs hit 90% of their twos, that would do a lot. As you say, not realistic. But there does seem to be some room for a readjustment to the adjustment, to take advantage of the fact that everyone is overplaying the three on defense. That's what makes SGAs game work so well. But no, I am not saying I'm glad Jimmy doesn't shot threes well. I wish he were prime Klay. We all do.
From the article: "What made Wiggins so perfect for the Warriors wasn't just his physical gifts or statistical improvement. It was his willingness to be whatever the team needed on any given night."
I dispute that, and indeed the article itself does. What the team needed was for him to try super hard and attack the defense, and as Draymond says in the quote, we always needed that guy, not just once in a while.
I get it. This is a tribute article, and I'm not here to simply bad-mouth a nice guy. He did indeed shine in the 2022 playoffs. But there's nothing wrong with a little reality.
As it happens I'm also worried about Jimmy's willingness to be whatever the team needs on any given night. He's a very good player, including a very good passer, but much of his outsized reputation relies on his playoff scoring. Which is nice but we need a also need a guy who's going to set an unglamorous screen on Draymond's guy so Draymond can go set a screen on Steph's guy and so on. Let's see if Jimmy can fit into that kind of offense.
(In my opinion, of course) I see Butler as the opposite of Wiggs. He hates not being the alpha-dog so much that he goes all Dray (well, not full Dray, luckily) on his teammates when he can't dominate. He'll go all-out, and is willing to alienate teammates when he feels they aren't doing the same. I think this is in pusuit of winning, not individual glory (as seen in his assist totals) but we'll see. He's also never played with a player like Curry before.
Wiggins seems like a super-nice guy, and everyone likes him. I think at least some of his passiveness came from not wanting to go out of his way to take minutes, possessions, etc from other players and upset the balance. He absolutely stepped up in many big games when it was clear that if he didn't, the team would lose. If Butler himself vouched for Wiggs, that says something.
(I am slightly worried about how Butler or Dray will react to each other when one of them makes a big mistake. But for now, I'm going to enjoy the honeymoon period).
I completely agree. The biggest difference between the two is in their mental games. Butler is bored by the regular season and wants to get the ball in the last second of a playoff game. Wiggins shies away from big moments but will take on the scoring load in the second quarter of a midseason game.
They would've complimented each other really well on the Warriors. It's actually too bad we had to get rid of Wiggs, for all the frustration he causes sometimes.
In terms of Butler, that's very true (and probably annoyed Spo and Riley a lot). Luckily, in the West, every game is a playoff and we're on the outside looking in! wait . . .
I don’t know if it has been mentioned, but Butler told Pat Riley something interesting when he signed originally with Miami and was celebrating with him.
Riley asked him who is the most talented player he has played with. Answer, Andrew Wiggins. Riley scoffed at the idea and Butler said I am telling you the guy is insanely talented, or words to that effect.
Was thinking some more about the Luka Doncheeto trade.
Harrison is getting death threats, which, while disgusting, was predictable.
The media reporting said that deal was kept between Harrison, Pelinka and the owners. I wonder if he even ran it by his assistant GM, or team president (if they have one).
Since he was a first-time GM, you assume that they hired an experienced assistant GM to help him learn the ropes.
I find it hard to believe that an experienced GM would have made that trade, TBH, or at least not in that way.
If he got advice about the possible ramifications (bad trade, plus personal blowback) and went ahead anyway, then it's kind of on him. And, if he didn't run it by an experienced aide, well, it's kind of on him, too.
This is not to excuse the death threats at all. I hope they find those guys and put them in jail.
Even more than the dunk over Luka, I’ll always remember the earlier one, in Round Two, over Brandon Clark, which came about twelve minutes of game time after Dillon Brooks broke GP’s arm. It’s an absolutely savage dunk, through the contact of a serious, highly athletic contest, and with a stare down afterwards that announced, for all those who might have doubted, that Wiggins was ready for the moment.
It was occasionally frustrating to see him play with less force in the subsequent years, but ultimately pretty easy for me to forgive. In fact, I always found something humanizing, and ultimately endearing, about the occasional ambivalence Wiggs seemed to feel toward his own talent, or toward the marshaling of it in service of physically dominating his opponent. That that ambivalence grew more pronounced while he dealt with his father’s illness will retrospectively increase my fondness, and also my appreciation for that playoff run. Evidently it wasn’t easy for him to access that level of sustained aggression, but he did it for those months on behalf of his teammates and ultimately brought home a ‘chip. Champ, legend, and first-ballot HWFL.
If you wanted a mentor for JK… this is the guy. Giving him a contract to play with and mentor JK, sans the circus, is a great side benefit to just having him on the floor.
I don't really think that's how mentorship works. What's he going to do, tell him to hit midrange shots and play defense? Like JK doesn't already know that? Tell him to score more in big games? Tell him that if his contract isn't to his liking, he can always go on strike? I don't really get what you're hoping for. What does it look like? The legendary dinner out where they bond? The equally legendary "Their lockers are next to each other?"
Tell him how he plays cuts, angles, what he looks at when reading a defense, and things like that.
If you assume players already know all the stuff, then you’re kind of assuming there’s no pathway for growth, other than things like mechanical shot adjustments and the like.
I'm not assuming that players know all that stuff. I am assuming we have a coaching staff, paid a lot of money, to teach whatever needs to be taught. Jimmy is a player. What do we have coaches for if they aren't going to tell JK cuts, angles, how to read a defense? I never understand this line of argument, the "only players can truly coach" angle. Why?
I'm not that enthusiastic about that video. Of course he's a very good player. But is he that great? I've never really looked at his game closely, and this breakdown seems to say that by issuing a pump fake he's a genius. Butler is nothing that hasn't been seen before. His biggest claim to fame is that he plays well in the playoffs. Which I look forward to seeing, indeed, because we really are going to struggle if he's going to give us 32% from three, career average.
Am I completely cranky about him? Not at all. Improvement on Wiggins. But I need to see much more before jumping up and down on the couch like we got Luka. Ouch, sorry about that one.
So to be great you have to be completely unique? Only 2 or 3 players in the league at a time can be great then? Seems like a standard that is too exclusive to be meaningful, who on the Celtics last season was something that "hasn't been seen before"?
I think you're taking the expression "nothing that hasn't been seen before," which I used correctly, and then setting up straw man arguments from there. What is the point you wish to make?
I'll come in for Jimmy. There was a time when Klay was considered the best two-way 2G in the league & JB was a close second, followed by a very large gap between them and the third best. Even in Klay's prime, I would have given Jimmy the very close edge over Klay. He was just a more dynamic player, could score in more ways, could handle the ball and play-make and was a more disruptive team defender. Klay was always feared more and for good reason, because you never knew which made shot would trigger an avalanche of 3s. But Jimmy, while not feared like Klay, would be the one to sneak up behind you and sandbag you. And then he'd get to work on you.
This is a big swing, not just for the Curry timeline. I honestly look at this as the front office swinging a baseball bat at the Coach/Team. If I am Joe and the front office, I'm not happy with the product. Curry, Dray and Kerr are the leaders of this team, the FO has been trying to do everything they can to do things their way via draft picks (older or high IQ system picks) or free agency (Slo Mo, Melton, Hield, all players that fit a role in Kerr's system) and I think they have grown irritated by the results.
Whether it works or not, I think getting Jimmy is a shot across the bows; it's a put up or shut up message to the leaders of this team that "if you want to do things your way, you need to win, and if you're not winning doing things your way, then things are going to change."
For sure. That is the hope, that he can do that again, while fitting into the Kerr offense and a good balance of threes. Can someone get a defilibrator for Hield?
Not sure if others are feeling this way but after reading the wonderful tribute above, then started watching the video.. it’s like you just broke up with your loyal girlfriend (or boyfriend). You guys had the highest of highs, have been through some tough times the last couple of years, personal tragedy, but you were working it out. S/he loved you and didn’t want to break up…
Then your buddies say.. get over it… look at your hot, new crazy boo. 😆
He ain't gonna be "this guy" if he gets a Steph/Warriors whistle.
What will be nice is that we finally will have a guy that used to be able to get to the stripe reliably that suddenly "forgets" how. Move along nothing to see here.
Moving bittersweetly forward, some elaboration on the lineup(s) I'd love to see when JK gets back:
Starting 5: Steph, Butler, Moody, Kuminga, Loon
Closing 5: Steph, Butler, Moody, Kuminga, Green
One nice thing about Jimmy is he’s an Iguodala-level passer/decision-maker with an ultra-low turnover rate — 5.6 ast to 1.4 tov per 36 this season — which allows us to sit or rest Dray and still build units with plenty of size and secondary playmaking. Like, that proposed starting 5 doesn’t really work with Wiggs, cos it would lack secondary playmaking (or force Wiggs, Kuminga, and Moody to do too much of it) whereas it works great with Jimmy.
To be clear: I still kinda think we’re rearranging the deck chairs with the trade; and I worry a lot about floor spacing. But there are plenty of areas where it’s upgrade, most notably on-ball scoring, passing, and playmaking. Heck, in the pure playmaking / turnover prevention realm, Jimmy is a significant an upgrade on KD.
My big question: Do Butler and Kuminga make each other better, or get in each other's way with the same goals? Can Butler and Kuminga both hunt middies and drive to the basket with the occasional three? While Kuminga is sizing up his opponent, what will Butler be doing, and vice versa
It’s not the cleanest imaginable fit, but I think they can make it work. JK isn’t a great shooter, but he is a good off-ball slasher. And on the other end, both are plus athletes who can defend 2-4.
There is potential to get burned defensively when facing the Morant or Fox type of guards. (But who doesn't get burned??) But with JB/JK and Dray or Looney playing behind & in help D, I wouldn't be overly concerned with getting cooked here or there. You will get it back on the other end anyway, with the size & skill in these groups. I think the Steph-Jimmy-Moody-JK-Dray may be the strongest unit we can put on the court. But it's in Kerr's hands whether we get to see it or not.
In all honesty I would have preferred to trade Draymond than Wiggins. A Curry, Butler, Wiggins, Kuminga, Center would have been at least entertaining and I can't imagine Wiggins punching a teammate or, for that matter, ever getting into a shoving match. Maybe Barkley is right and we shouldn't expect players to be role models but we can hold them to a somewhat higher standard than just being able to win games. I wish Andrew well in Miami and beyond.
I could see this. Then a secondary trade for Time Lord to shore up the back line of defense (as our hated rivals to the South did)… but, in the end, I think Miami wanted Wiggins.
https://dubnationhq.com/p/preview-the-splash-buckets-era-has preview thread up! DAMN SO MUCH CONTENT HERE AT THE HQ!
God bless you, Andrew. Thanks for giving us some great years and being someone we loved to cheer for. Wishing you all the best in Miami!
If I were designing a perfect basketball player for these times, I would start with youth, since I want to build a franchise around him. Let's say 20, 21 -- but not new to the game. What if he had professional experience overseas already? Then of course I'd want height. It's the NBA, height just matters. Let's make the guy 7'4" but not stumpy. I mean, since I can have anything I want, it's a fictional scenario, I'll say an ... 8'0" wing span. Lol. But not one of these lumbering big guys. I want the player to be able to run, spin, jump, be agile. I get it, I know it's never going to happen.
But this isn't 1973, either. I don't just want Kareem, great as he was. I want a guy who can hit the three, even the deep three. I want him to be able to hit mid-range, floaters, all of it. And still be able to dunk over everyone on offense, because remember I made him super long.
On defense I'd want him to use that length and quick instincts to not only block a great many shots, but to deter anyone from even trying him inside. Steals, also. OK, I get it, I'm asking for everything.
But that's the physical stuff. Basketball is also mental. I want a guy who really wants to win, a competitor, fierce.
It also matters where you play. I'd want him on a rebuilding team so he doesn't have to adjust his game to some fading superstar, but can try out different things. Also, give him a great coach who has all the teaching skills, but is also always willing to innovate.
Be nice if my daydream ideal player spoke French but I'm not THAT picky. Anyway, it's a lazy Saturday and I was just imagining things.
Among my various daydreams, I wondered once what Olajuwon would do in today's game.
Didn't take 3s, of course, but of all the old-school greats, he'd be the one I think most likely to adapt to the modern game. (Kareem might give him a run for his money, I guess).
Easily my favorite center of all time.
It is amazing that we are even questioning that guys like the Dream and Kareem could play today.
Are we saying they could only play if they started shooting 3’s?
Isn’t it comical that QP is playing and we have doubts about those guys.
This is where I draw the line on 5’s shooting 3’s.
Kerr….sorry Kareem but we are sending you down to the G league for 3 months to practice shooting 3’s, you are messing up the spacing for our all time greats like JK, MM and GUI. You get better at it and you can come backup QP.
We won a title a couple years ago with Loon as our 5.
Dallas won the West last year with non shooting 5’s.
Agreed. I loved his play. One of my all time favorites, and able to adjust to many challenges including threes, because he could learn any skill.
Perhaps you missed the important news that I have given Wemby the nickname Extreme Olajuwon in honor of their similarities.
Aha! That's probably what brought the memory back. I'm really good at filing off the serial numbers and thinking the thought was original. :) Sorry.
A player like that might not make it. Maybe if you added the hard hat mentality of a Larry Smith.
Come on. Let's not get greedy.
Warrior for Life, and an easy guy to root for, but my bar for Statue (and Jersey retirement) is a bit higher.
That being said, I hope he comes back and he can add to his Warriors resume.
Should we hang a banner for the DLo-Wiggs-JK trade? Or should we just make a solid gold replica of the phone used to complete the trade and put it next to the phone used to trade Monta for Bogut and the one used to reject Klay + Dray for Love (Wiggs technically deserves something for that, too)?
Statue of Kahn, too, then, next to a Steph look away?
Hahahahah
While it's certainly not true of ALL games we lost this year, one frequent pattern observed revolves around someone from the opponent (often a role player) going absolutely nuclear in striping 3s, and our team's inability to respond in kind. I don't see how Jimmy helps in this regard, does he really defend the perimeter that much better than Andrew? Can he even play as many minutes as Wiggs?
We also lost several of the players who were occasionally able to return the favor, in Wiggs and occasionally Lindy and even Dennis.
Trading 3s for 2s is not a winning formula unless we can hit the latter at a very high rate.
At best, the trade leaves us even on perimeter defense and maybe slightly improved on interior offense, while making us worse on perimeter offense. Time will tell.
If Jimmy leads to a more efficient offense overall, maybe. How many missed layups and clanked threes lead to easy offense foe the oppenent.
It will be intresting to see how this plays out.
Simmons to the Clippers, Len to the Pacers, Biyombo(!) to the Spurs on a 10-day (I forgot that he was still around).
Clippers could make some noise.
For example "God DAMN IT WHY DID WE DO THAT?"
While I reserve the right to hate this trade if it ends up leading to the departure of JK, I really don't think that's the plan. I think, after getting under the 1st apron and cleaning up their books, the Dubs are willing to shell out some luxury tax dollars in order to pay back Curry in his final years all while continuing their 'second timeline', albeit with a little less fanfare. This aside, the more I look at this trade the more I like it. And that says a lot considering losing out on some of the guys who would have been available in this year's draft.
Our team has been flat-lining all year. If Dray is the heart of this team, then we need a pace-maker. How many code-blue 4th quarters have we had to endure this year? If there is anyone in this league who can help shock this team back into form, it's Jimmy Buckets, or as I refer to him, The Human Defibrillator.
I think if anything, JK surviving this round of trades was a real show of support from the team. Then again, he was in a lot of trade talks, and not just rumored, but stuff is coming out. And also: how big an endorsement of your game is it if they go get a guy who plays a LOT like you? Duplicative, or synergystic? That's our big question.
One positive thing (OK, two) I will say about JB ... he's a multi-tooled player, and with very high BBIQ.
If Kuminga's in the lineup and needs to be prowling around the low block to be effective, JB's going to figure out where he needs to be to get out of the way, and be able to get him a pass.
It would be really something if the Warriors of all teams won a title playing old school hoops.
Not relying much on 3’s but shooting a high pct on 2’s and getting to the ft line while playing really good D.
JB, JK, DG, Looney. Scoring less, giving up less. Live by the 3 die by the 3 for everyone else. A fantasy but I don’t see us out 3ing people anymore.
At best we make enough and have a few key games where we make more, but this is looking like a different kind of team. Tough, gritty. 98 - 95 vs 118 - 115.
> It would be really something if the Warriors of all teams won a title playing old school hoops.
Realistically, it’s impossible mathematically. Getting up hella threes (before the rest of the league realized they needed to) is the biggest reason the Warriors were able to average 70 wins in Kerr’s first couple seasons. Rolling out an offense today that doesn’t get up a lot off threes is like coming into every game with a 10-15 point handicap.
I don’t know what the exact minimum required number of 3FGA is to be competitive in today’s NBA, but I suspect it’s at least double or the amount you would need to be described as “old school.”
By old school I don’t mean shooting 5 3’s a game.
I should have been more clear.
I am talking maybe 20 instead of 40.
In Kerr’s first couple seasons he happened to have the best 3 point shooters in history playing in a league that had not yet been converted to the 3 point shooting religion. That advantage no longer exists. Hell, there are how many teams today that shoot it better than us?
There are also a lot of games lost BECAUSE a team throws up a bunch of 3’s. Look at the box scores everyday. Surprise loss, 7-35 from 3.
I understand the 3 point math and I hate it. It is ironic because math is certain. 1+1 is 2. The problem is Steph or whoever goes 8-12 today and 1-12 tomorrow. The mathematical certainty on any given day is out the window.
That Houston 0-27 will live on forever.
The game has become more of a crapshoot.
> I am talking maybe 20 instead of 40.
And I’m saying you’re dooming yourself to be an NBA bottom-feeder if you shoot that few. There’s a reason literally every team in the NBA gets up between 31 and 48 threes a game.
We don’t have to love it as fans — there’s definitely an argument that the “efficiency trap” makes the game more homogenous and less fun to watch, as with the increasing emphasis on the “three true outcomes” in baseball. But if you want to win games and not be left behind mathematically, you do you actually need to get with the program.
I understand what you are saying. I just have my doubts about this team shooting it well enough. Look at there 4 best players, Steph, JB, JK, DG and add Looney as there best playoff tested 5 if DG is not playing the 5.
Hopefully Hield, MM and Podz will surprise to the upside because they need something they aren’t getting now.
It will be interesting.
Sure, but devil is in the details. I'm sure we agree that if the Dubs hit 90% of their twos, that would do a lot. As you say, not realistic. But there does seem to be some room for a readjustment to the adjustment, to take advantage of the fact that everyone is overplaying the three on defense. That's what makes SGAs game work so well. But no, I am not saying I'm glad Jimmy doesn't shot threes well. I wish he were prime Klay. We all do.
From the article: "What made Wiggins so perfect for the Warriors wasn't just his physical gifts or statistical improvement. It was his willingness to be whatever the team needed on any given night."
I dispute that, and indeed the article itself does. What the team needed was for him to try super hard and attack the defense, and as Draymond says in the quote, we always needed that guy, not just once in a while.
I get it. This is a tribute article, and I'm not here to simply bad-mouth a nice guy. He did indeed shine in the 2022 playoffs. But there's nothing wrong with a little reality.
As it happens I'm also worried about Jimmy's willingness to be whatever the team needs on any given night. He's a very good player, including a very good passer, but much of his outsized reputation relies on his playoff scoring. Which is nice but we need a also need a guy who's going to set an unglamorous screen on Draymond's guy so Draymond can go set a screen on Steph's guy and so on. Let's see if Jimmy can fit into that kind of offense.
(In my opinion, of course) I see Butler as the opposite of Wiggs. He hates not being the alpha-dog so much that he goes all Dray (well, not full Dray, luckily) on his teammates when he can't dominate. He'll go all-out, and is willing to alienate teammates when he feels they aren't doing the same. I think this is in pusuit of winning, not individual glory (as seen in his assist totals) but we'll see. He's also never played with a player like Curry before.
Wiggins seems like a super-nice guy, and everyone likes him. I think at least some of his passiveness came from not wanting to go out of his way to take minutes, possessions, etc from other players and upset the balance. He absolutely stepped up in many big games when it was clear that if he didn't, the team would lose. If Butler himself vouched for Wiggs, that says something.
(I am slightly worried about how Butler or Dray will react to each other when one of them makes a big mistake. But for now, I'm going to enjoy the honeymoon period).
I completely agree. The biggest difference between the two is in their mental games. Butler is bored by the regular season and wants to get the ball in the last second of a playoff game. Wiggins shies away from big moments but will take on the scoring load in the second quarter of a midseason game.
They would've complimented each other really well on the Warriors. It's actually too bad we had to get rid of Wiggs, for all the frustration he causes sometimes.
In terms of Butler, that's very true (and probably annoyed Spo and Riley a lot). Luckily, in the West, every game is a playoff and we're on the outside looking in! wait . . .
Worried??? I can't wait!!!!
I don’t know if it has been mentioned, but Butler told Pat Riley something interesting when he signed originally with Miami and was celebrating with him.
Riley asked him who is the most talented player he has played with. Answer, Andrew Wiggins. Riley scoffed at the idea and Butler said I am telling you the guy is insanely talented, or words to that effect.
Far out
Was thinking some more about the Luka Doncheeto trade.
Harrison is getting death threats, which, while disgusting, was predictable.
The media reporting said that deal was kept between Harrison, Pelinka and the owners. I wonder if he even ran it by his assistant GM, or team president (if they have one).
Since he was a first-time GM, you assume that they hired an experienced assistant GM to help him learn the ropes.
I find it hard to believe that an experienced GM would have made that trade, TBH, or at least not in that way.
If he got advice about the possible ramifications (bad trade, plus personal blowback) and went ahead anyway, then it's kind of on him. And, if he didn't run it by an experienced aide, well, it's kind of on him, too.
This is not to excuse the death threats at all. I hope they find those guys and put them in jail.
For what it's worth...Dallas PD said they have no active threats against anyone in Mavs organization.
That's good to hear.
Love this, Daniel. A really fine tribute.
Even more than the dunk over Luka, I’ll always remember the earlier one, in Round Two, over Brandon Clark, which came about twelve minutes of game time after Dillon Brooks broke GP’s arm. It’s an absolutely savage dunk, through the contact of a serious, highly athletic contest, and with a stare down afterwards that announced, for all those who might have doubted, that Wiggins was ready for the moment.
It was occasionally frustrating to see him play with less force in the subsequent years, but ultimately pretty easy for me to forgive. In fact, I always found something humanizing, and ultimately endearing, about the occasional ambivalence Wiggs seemed to feel toward his own talent, or toward the marshaling of it in service of physically dominating his opponent. That that ambivalence grew more pronounced while he dealt with his father’s illness will retrospectively increase my fondness, and also my appreciation for that playoff run. Evidently it wasn’t easy for him to access that level of sustained aggression, but he did it for those months on behalf of his teammates and ultimately brought home a ‘chip. Champ, legend, and first-ballot HWFL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw_OUHDvVkM
This guy is on the Warriors now
If you wanted a mentor for JK… this is the guy. Giving him a contract to play with and mentor JK, sans the circus, is a great side benefit to just having him on the floor.
I don't really think that's how mentorship works. What's he going to do, tell him to hit midrange shots and play defense? Like JK doesn't already know that? Tell him to score more in big games? Tell him that if his contract isn't to his liking, he can always go on strike? I don't really get what you're hoping for. What does it look like? The legendary dinner out where they bond? The equally legendary "Their lockers are next to each other?"
Tell him how he plays cuts, angles, what he looks at when reading a defense, and things like that.
If you assume players already know all the stuff, then you’re kind of assuming there’s no pathway for growth, other than things like mechanical shot adjustments and the like.
I'm not assuming that players know all that stuff. I am assuming we have a coaching staff, paid a lot of money, to teach whatever needs to be taught. Jimmy is a player. What do we have coaches for if they aren't going to tell JK cuts, angles, how to read a defense? I never understand this line of argument, the "only players can truly coach" angle. Why?
A player, who has a different perspective, one that has proven successful with a similar type of player archetype.
> only players can truly coach
Please point out where I said Jimmy is the only one who can coach JK… I didn’t, and it’s not remotely my suggestion.
Then we are back to the original question I had. What is it you think Jimmy can mentor JK with, that he's not already learning?
I'm not that enthusiastic about that video. Of course he's a very good player. But is he that great? I've never really looked at his game closely, and this breakdown seems to say that by issuing a pump fake he's a genius. Butler is nothing that hasn't been seen before. His biggest claim to fame is that he plays well in the playoffs. Which I look forward to seeing, indeed, because we really are going to struggle if he's going to give us 32% from three, career average.
Am I completely cranky about him? Not at all. Improvement on Wiggins. But I need to see much more before jumping up and down on the couch like we got Luka. Ouch, sorry about that one.
> Butler is nothing that hasn't been seen before.
So to be great you have to be completely unique? Only 2 or 3 players in the league at a time can be great then? Seems like a standard that is too exclusive to be meaningful, who on the Celtics last season was something that "hasn't been seen before"?
I think you're taking the expression "nothing that hasn't been seen before," which I used correctly, and then setting up straw man arguments from there. What is the point you wish to make?
I'll come in for Jimmy. There was a time when Klay was considered the best two-way 2G in the league & JB was a close second, followed by a very large gap between them and the third best. Even in Klay's prime, I would have given Jimmy the very close edge over Klay. He was just a more dynamic player, could score in more ways, could handle the ball and play-make and was a more disruptive team defender. Klay was always feared more and for good reason, because you never knew which made shot would trigger an avalanche of 3s. But Jimmy, while not feared like Klay, would be the one to sneak up behind you and sandbag you. And then he'd get to work on you.
This is a big swing, not just for the Curry timeline. I honestly look at this as the front office swinging a baseball bat at the Coach/Team. If I am Joe and the front office, I'm not happy with the product. Curry, Dray and Kerr are the leaders of this team, the FO has been trying to do everything they can to do things their way via draft picks (older or high IQ system picks) or free agency (Slo Mo, Melton, Hield, all players that fit a role in Kerr's system) and I think they have grown irritated by the results.
Whether it works or not, I think getting Jimmy is a shot across the bows; it's a put up or shut up message to the leaders of this team that "if you want to do things your way, you need to win, and if you're not winning doing things your way, then things are going to change."
It's all very spicy to me, so I love it. lol
I think that Jimmy is a great great 90s player. But it's 2025 and the spacing and the three matter quite a bit. We shall see.
He was the best player on 2 Finals teams in the last 4 years. He's not an archaic throwback.
For sure. That is the hope, that he can do that again, while fitting into the Kerr offense and a good balance of threes. Can someone get a defilibrator for Hield?
JB has his own speed and he controls it. Not too fast, not too slow. And he can kind of lull his opponent to sleep while setting up those middies.
Not sure if others are feeling this way but after reading the wonderful tribute above, then started watching the video.. it’s like you just broke up with your loyal girlfriend (or boyfriend). You guys had the highest of highs, have been through some tough times the last couple of years, personal tragedy, but you were working it out. S/he loved you and didn’t want to break up…
Then your buddies say.. get over it… look at your hot, new crazy boo. 😆
He ain't gonna be "this guy" if he gets a Steph/Warriors whistle.
What will be nice is that we finally will have a guy that used to be able to get to the stripe reliably that suddenly "forgets" how. Move along nothing to see here.
Butler will continue to get to the line because a "Warriors whistle" doesn't exist
Yum
Moving bittersweetly forward, some elaboration on the lineup(s) I'd love to see when JK gets back:
Starting 5: Steph, Butler, Moody, Kuminga, Loon
Closing 5: Steph, Butler, Moody, Kuminga, Green
One nice thing about Jimmy is he’s an Iguodala-level passer/decision-maker with an ultra-low turnover rate — 5.6 ast to 1.4 tov per 36 this season — which allows us to sit or rest Dray and still build units with plenty of size and secondary playmaking. Like, that proposed starting 5 doesn’t really work with Wiggs, cos it would lack secondary playmaking (or force Wiggs, Kuminga, and Moody to do too much of it) whereas it works great with Jimmy.
To be clear: I still kinda think we’re rearranging the deck chairs with the trade; and I worry a lot about floor spacing. But there are plenty of areas where it’s upgrade, most notably on-ball scoring, passing, and playmaking. Heck, in the pure playmaking / turnover prevention realm, Jimmy is a significant an upgrade on KD.
My big question: Do Butler and Kuminga make each other better, or get in each other's way with the same goals? Can Butler and Kuminga both hunt middies and drive to the basket with the occasional three? While Kuminga is sizing up his opponent, what will Butler be doing, and vice versa
It’s not the cleanest imaginable fit, but I think they can make it work. JK isn’t a great shooter, but he is a good off-ball slasher. And on the other end, both are plus athletes who can defend 2-4.
There is potential to get burned defensively when facing the Morant or Fox type of guards. (But who doesn't get burned??) But with JB/JK and Dray or Looney playing behind & in help D, I wouldn't be overly concerned with getting cooked here or there. You will get it back on the other end anyway, with the size & skill in these groups. I think the Steph-Jimmy-Moody-JK-Dray may be the strongest unit we can put on the court. But it's in Kerr's hands whether we get to see it or not.
The Four Phases of the Dynasty:
14-15: The arrival
16-17, 17-18: You know my name
21-22: Wiggin’ out!
??: The Butler did it
In all honesty I would have preferred to trade Draymond than Wiggins. A Curry, Butler, Wiggins, Kuminga, Center would have been at least entertaining and I can't imagine Wiggins punching a teammate or, for that matter, ever getting into a shoving match. Maybe Barkley is right and we shouldn't expect players to be role models but we can hold them to a somewhat higher standard than just being able to win games. I wish Andrew well in Miami and beyond.
Definitely agree but I don't think the Heat take Draymond over Wiggins
I could see this. Then a secondary trade for Time Lord to shore up the back line of defense (as our hated rivals to the South did)… but, in the end, I think Miami wanted Wiggins.