Did they identify the first championship and the 73 win season as their main breadwinner or the Durant years?
With Bogut, Barnes, and Iguodala they had a combination of passing and defense that led to the Splash explosions leading to buzzsaw runs that were amazing and Steph had rockstar status touring the country. The term weaponized joy was bandied about.
Since then the Warriors have steadily valued chasing a superstar, and added non-passing bigs and wings over high IQ passers and have not found nearly as much joy.
Is it the Joy of movement and success or the power of overwhelming talent that will bring the Ownership group more $?
The main reason Wiggins will be a Warrior next year if Wiseman and the Minn pick are also Warriors is ego. There is no way the FO is going to be willing to take the heat of they have to give up draft picks to move off of Wiggins to save $. It would mean they traded Iguodala and a first, threw the team into a trash 15 win season that was awful even when Steph was on the floor, and had to eventually give up additional 1st round picks just to get off of the knee jerk DLo signing. They won’t be able to claim lightyears status based on doing all that for a 4-6 range pick from Minn. It would clearly be a massive L. And it would be locking in an L when winning a title the next couple years would turn it into a massive Win.
Good conversation. Patrick is always compelling! The dream of getting off of Wiggins contract for nothing in the summer is a bit of the pipe type. The idea that ownership is going to spend that much $ for anything other than uber championship favorite status is well taken. Can we safely say anything less than a WCF dogfight this year without Klay, will certainly lead to significant roster changes in the off-season, and even that might not be enough?
We didn't get Wiggins to be a high-volume low efficiency scorer. We've seen him do that, we've seen DLo do that, we've seen Beal do that, and it doesn't lead to wins.
I haven't seen that Wiggins can't fill the Barnes role that he was seemingly envisioned for. I super, super don't want to scrap the template before seeing him as the 3rd option with Klay and Steph. The league hasn't figured out how to guard those two together- a hobbled Klay with Steph were giving the Raptors the business the last time we saw them, no KD required.
I am down to wait to see if Wiggins can replicate the Barnes experience: reliable, boring dunks with the Occasional Surprise, good finishing on the break, occasional shot creation with the occasional month/finals-long 3 point dry spells, the ability to attack a closeout, (see also the disappointment of a legion of Mavs/Kings fans who thought that per 36 minutes numbers on a dynasty mean Oh That's What He'll Score If We Actually Play Him 36 Minutes For Us), and Most Importantly the ability in our switch-heavy defense to effectively guard 1-4 without complaining or whining. That defense lets us trot out our flame throwing happy guy with the Often Unfortunate hair to take everyone's lunch money and bring us a season's worth of jaw-dropping moments and, often, a championship. I am willing to wait to see if that can happen, and I am ok with the costs (time, losses, screaming) of developing continuity over the course of seasons like this.
Everyone ready to get blown out today? This seems like another big loss. I’m on the KAT or BeaL bus. We need to make a big change if we want the 4-6 seed. I’m talking like in 2018 LeBron traded half the cavs away. This is a 500 team as it stands and a fringe 8-10 seed. If everyone is ok with looking to next year and developing the young players then don’t make a trade.
One other Murray gem I loved (not to single him out; I guess I just take all the great Dan and Dru gems for granted at this point!): the observation that Wiseman looks pretty much exactly the way you would expect a guy who has worked on his skills without playing organized ball for a year to look. There are flashes of ridiculousness pretty much every game (lovely spin moves, picture perfect 3 point form, etc.) just often without the full-time offensive and defensive awareness at game speed that can only come from extended run in competitive 5 on 5 setting. Patience is seriously in order with our guy.
I mean, I’d be lying if it didn’t sting just a bit to see LaMelo and Haliburton lighting it up the way they are. At the same time, it’s super early, and those guys both had the benefit of playing organized ball while Wiseman was mostly working out with munchkins carrying paddles. If/when the game starts to slow down for Wiseman, he’s got a lot more physical potential to grow into than they do.
And heck, even if one or two or three guys in the draft end up outpacing Wiseman, that’s not something to commit hara kiri over, as long as our guy turns out really well. Getting the *one guy* who’s better than all the others at your pick is a lot to ask. A “Curry 2009” comes along once in a blue moon. If you happen to pick Klay over Kawhi, or Hakeem over Jordan, you tip your hat to the teams that got MJ and Kawhi, and happily live with second or third best.
As long as we’re on the topic of the draft, though: when is someone gonna hold Mr. Murray’s feet to the fire for saying he would pick old man Obi Toppin over LaMelo, Wiseman, Edwards, or Haliburton?
If I had to pull one clear takeaway from your fun, wide-ranging convo, it’s ... Wiggins kinda has to go. I’m not big on stressing about Lacob’s wallet, but $200M+ a year (including luxury taxes) is a rather insane price for Andrew Wiggins alone.
Patrick stops short of losing Wiseman and the Minny pick in a Wiggins-Beal swap — which is basically where I am. I am intrigued by the scenario he lays out with a core of Curry-Beal-Thompson-Oubre-Green, with a three-headed C of Looney-Chriss-Lopez. In a league with no clear standard bearer, that could be a fringe title contender. But like Patrick and I suspect most here, I’m just short of endorsing it if JDub has to go.
Tricky situation for sure. One potential Wiggins target you don’t mention: Kyle Lowry. Would Toronto flip Lowry for Maple Jordan and, say, the Minnesota pick? Would we? What’s great about Lowry (beyond his all-star play and championship mettle) is that he’s on an expiring contract, which would potentially allow us to keep him while renegotiating a much lower contract with him, possibly saving the team $100M+ in luxury taxes. And the resulting core, if Lowry’s game can hold up another couple years at age 35, is not too far off the Beal core noted above.
No idea how likely it is the Ws make a big move before the deadline, but given the potential of a ~$500M payroll (if the Warriors just stand pat) along with Bob Myers’ comment that the team would be “aggressive” ... it wouldn’t totally shock me. Tick tick tick...
Very informative chat, guys. Hopefully, the posters on this board will finally understand how caught the Warriors are between a rock and a hard place. So don't hope for any dream trade to happen before the end of the season. And even then, the difficulty of getting a dream player is small. What we should be hoping for is to move Wiggins, use the Minny pick wisely, getting Klay back in working order, developing Wiseman and Oubre for efficiency, and hoping our 2021 and 2022 picks convey real stars for the rest of the decade. Good show, guys!
My big Question about the Ownership group:
Did they identify the first championship and the 73 win season as their main breadwinner or the Durant years?
With Bogut, Barnes, and Iguodala they had a combination of passing and defense that led to the Splash explosions leading to buzzsaw runs that were amazing and Steph had rockstar status touring the country. The term weaponized joy was bandied about.
Since then the Warriors have steadily valued chasing a superstar, and added non-passing bigs and wings over high IQ passers and have not found nearly as much joy.
Is it the Joy of movement and success or the power of overwhelming talent that will bring the Ownership group more $?
The main reason Wiggins will be a Warrior next year if Wiseman and the Minn pick are also Warriors is ego. There is no way the FO is going to be willing to take the heat of they have to give up draft picks to move off of Wiggins to save $. It would mean they traded Iguodala and a first, threw the team into a trash 15 win season that was awful even when Steph was on the floor, and had to eventually give up additional 1st round picks just to get off of the knee jerk DLo signing. They won’t be able to claim lightyears status based on doing all that for a 4-6 range pick from Minn. It would clearly be a massive L. And it would be locking in an L when winning a title the next couple years would turn it into a massive Win.
Good conversation. Patrick is always compelling! The dream of getting off of Wiggins contract for nothing in the summer is a bit of the pipe type. The idea that ownership is going to spend that much $ for anything other than uber championship favorite status is well taken. Can we safely say anything less than a WCF dogfight this year without Klay, will certainly lead to significant roster changes in the off-season, and even that might not be enough?
We didn't get Wiggins to be a high-volume low efficiency scorer. We've seen him do that, we've seen DLo do that, we've seen Beal do that, and it doesn't lead to wins.
I haven't seen that Wiggins can't fill the Barnes role that he was seemingly envisioned for. I super, super don't want to scrap the template before seeing him as the 3rd option with Klay and Steph. The league hasn't figured out how to guard those two together- a hobbled Klay with Steph were giving the Raptors the business the last time we saw them, no KD required.
I am down to wait to see if Wiggins can replicate the Barnes experience: reliable, boring dunks with the Occasional Surprise, good finishing on the break, occasional shot creation with the occasional month/finals-long 3 point dry spells, the ability to attack a closeout, (see also the disappointment of a legion of Mavs/Kings fans who thought that per 36 minutes numbers on a dynasty mean Oh That's What He'll Score If We Actually Play Him 36 Minutes For Us), and Most Importantly the ability in our switch-heavy defense to effectively guard 1-4 without complaining or whining. That defense lets us trot out our flame throwing happy guy with the Often Unfortunate hair to take everyone's lunch money and bring us a season's worth of jaw-dropping moments and, often, a championship. I am willing to wait to see if that can happen, and I am ok with the costs (time, losses, screaming) of developing continuity over the course of seasons like this.
Everyone ready to get blown out today? This seems like another big loss. I’m on the KAT or BeaL bus. We need to make a big change if we want the 4-6 seed. I’m talking like in 2018 LeBron traded half the cavs away. This is a 500 team as it stands and a fringe 8-10 seed. If everyone is ok with looking to next year and developing the young players then don’t make a trade.
Alchemy suggested a derozan for wiggins trade, if we can sign both oubre and derozan after this season I would do it
One other Murray gem I loved (not to single him out; I guess I just take all the great Dan and Dru gems for granted at this point!): the observation that Wiseman looks pretty much exactly the way you would expect a guy who has worked on his skills without playing organized ball for a year to look. There are flashes of ridiculousness pretty much every game (lovely spin moves, picture perfect 3 point form, etc.) just often without the full-time offensive and defensive awareness at game speed that can only come from extended run in competitive 5 on 5 setting. Patience is seriously in order with our guy.
I mean, I’d be lying if it didn’t sting just a bit to see LaMelo and Haliburton lighting it up the way they are. At the same time, it’s super early, and those guys both had the benefit of playing organized ball while Wiseman was mostly working out with munchkins carrying paddles. If/when the game starts to slow down for Wiseman, he’s got a lot more physical potential to grow into than they do.
And heck, even if one or two or three guys in the draft end up outpacing Wiseman, that’s not something to commit hara kiri over, as long as our guy turns out really well. Getting the *one guy* who’s better than all the others at your pick is a lot to ask. A “Curry 2009” comes along once in a blue moon. If you happen to pick Klay over Kawhi, or Hakeem over Jordan, you tip your hat to the teams that got MJ and Kawhi, and happily live with second or third best.
As long as we’re on the topic of the draft, though: when is someone gonna hold Mr. Murray’s feet to the fire for saying he would pick old man Obi Toppin over LaMelo, Wiseman, Edwards, or Haliburton?
Great stuff, gents!
If I had to pull one clear takeaway from your fun, wide-ranging convo, it’s ... Wiggins kinda has to go. I’m not big on stressing about Lacob’s wallet, but $200M+ a year (including luxury taxes) is a rather insane price for Andrew Wiggins alone.
Patrick stops short of losing Wiseman and the Minny pick in a Wiggins-Beal swap — which is basically where I am. I am intrigued by the scenario he lays out with a core of Curry-Beal-Thompson-Oubre-Green, with a three-headed C of Looney-Chriss-Lopez. In a league with no clear standard bearer, that could be a fringe title contender. But like Patrick and I suspect most here, I’m just short of endorsing it if JDub has to go.
Tricky situation for sure. One potential Wiggins target you don’t mention: Kyle Lowry. Would Toronto flip Lowry for Maple Jordan and, say, the Minnesota pick? Would we? What’s great about Lowry (beyond his all-star play and championship mettle) is that he’s on an expiring contract, which would potentially allow us to keep him while renegotiating a much lower contract with him, possibly saving the team $100M+ in luxury taxes. And the resulting core, if Lowry’s game can hold up another couple years at age 35, is not too far off the Beal core noted above.
No idea how likely it is the Ws make a big move before the deadline, but given the potential of a ~$500M payroll (if the Warriors just stand pat) along with Bob Myers’ comment that the team would be “aggressive” ... it wouldn’t totally shock me. Tick tick tick...
Very informative chat, guys. Hopefully, the posters on this board will finally understand how caught the Warriors are between a rock and a hard place. So don't hope for any dream trade to happen before the end of the season. And even then, the difficulty of getting a dream player is small. What we should be hoping for is to move Wiggins, use the Minny pick wisely, getting Klay back in working order, developing Wiseman and Oubre for efficiency, and hoping our 2021 and 2022 picks convey real stars for the rest of the decade. Good show, guys!