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Filling Out The Roster Edition
We’re all just living in it
Trogdor (13 ♡):
I tend to agree as well. I don't think the Warriors value Andre *that* much as a player at this point (although he clearly can still do positive things when he's healthy enough to play).
I don't doubt he adds a great bench presence, and is essentially a player-coach out there. I'll defer to the team as to the level of impact this truly has.
But really, it's a good culture move to have them so adamant about wanting to bring him back. It's really not likely to impact Andre's decision too much one way or the other, and it feels good to know that you're wanted, especially when you were one of the pillars of FOUR championships, and turning the team around. How many teams will just kind of try and nudge out vets when they're past their expiration date. The LAST thing we want is Andre feeling disrespected and going and playing elsewhere.
If he's going to retire, it should be as a Warrior. If he's going to come back, it should be with the Warriors. The love the FO is showing him just really allows him to do this on his own terms without feeling like he's being pressured out.
National Suicide Help-Dial 988 (12 ♡):
I caught up with Warriors GM Bob Myers at the ESPYs. Considering what Myers said here generally, safe to say Warriors don't plan to reunite with Kevin Durant. Myers: “I like our team and where it’s at. I want to give the guys a chance to do it again.” https://on.nba.com/3cAb1qZ
kinbote (10 ♡):
As a master-strength chess player, I'd say that this is a lot more about some of the issues specific to chess and doesn't really translate to other sports. Most top level chess events are round robins - you play everyone else in the tournament once (or sometimes twice, or back in the day sometimes four times). Those kinds of formats encourage a significant amount of risk because a perfectly played game of chess is almost certainly a draw, and these guys can play a lot of types of positions almost perfectly. So to win enough games to finish at the top, you've got to risk losing. The World Championship is basically the only lengthy, high stakes match competition left, and it rewards the opposite approach: cautious, careful probing of the opponent's weaknesses, since a single loss might cost you the match. In the 2016 match between Carlsen and Sergey Karjakin, both players won one game and the other 10 were drawn. In the 2018 match between Carlsen and Fabi Caruana all 12 games were drawn. Both matches were decided in a rapid tiebreaker (only a little better than penalty kicks as a way of determining a winner) and Carlsen (who is even better in rapid formats than slow formats) won both easily. The problem from Carlsen's POV is that preparation for such a match requires tons and tons of memorization of opening theory (because if you get caught in trap and lose a game, there might not be any way to come back) and this opening theory is being fed to you by a team of grandmasters you've hired who are plugging opening variations into whatever computer program is considered the strongest at that moment (or, more likely, into a bunch of different programs and comparing what they say). I can't think of any other sporting competition where preparing for the title event is so fundamentally different from every other game, match, whatever you have it. That's why Carlsen is bowing out but not actually retiring from playing chess - he loves beating people and winning tournaments; he just doesn't want to sink the next six months of his life into memorizing a bunch of opening lines a computer spits out at him.
Trogdor (10 ♡):
As Draymond is generally considered a top five all time 2nd round draft pick (and I think there are good arguments for him being the second best ever), I think our second rounder karma is probably good for awhile.
It would be interesting to see a list of the best second round draft picks for each team. I have a feeling a lot probably didn't stay with their original team for long.
g8tgod (8 ♡):
Not sure if this was ever in doubt. Talking heads just love to stir up the controversy, but given what the Ws would have to give up to get him, how could Durant -- a soon-to-be 34 year old, uber-talented diva who never stays happy and needs to be the center of attention, and whose body is starting to break down -- even be a consideration?
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Stretch 4 checkbox checked
Sleepy Freud (21 ♡):
OT: I always get a little twitchy when people lay out the roster in terms of the five traditional positions, which seems especially ill-suited to the fluidity of Kerrball.
I feel like there should be a better way to visualize the roster in terms of the three primary positions — Primary Ballhandler, Wing, and Big — with "shades of grey" in between.
So I came up with the little sketch below of the Ws' 14-man roster as it stands (including Andre for fun). I'd love feedback on how clear you guys think it is as an infographic, and/or how accurate you think it is in describing the likely positions and roles of our 14 players.
Eric Apricot (18 ♡):
Has anyone mentioned this?
ESPN Sources: The NBA has fined Golden State Warriors owner Joe Lacob $500,000 for his recent comments on the Point Forward Podcast discussing the league’s collective bargaining talks, which included Lacob describing the league’s luxury tax system as “very unfair.”
Joe is light years ahead, as the fine won’t count against the cap, saving him millions in luxury tax penalties
Abaddon (17 ♡):
Andre just shouted out Lacob for the 500k fine lol
ServantOfLuna (16 ♡):
Having a better discipline = being a better team
Trogdor (14 ♡):
As stated, we essentially swapped GPII and OPJ for DDV and JMG. (Wow, that's quite the alphabet salad).
Fun question for debate: at this point last season, before we knew that GPII would be GARY f***ing Payton II, and before we knew that OPJ would stay (relatively) healthy for the season and playoff run, which of these two pairs would we have been more excited about getting?
I think we definitely would have been more excited about DDV than GPII, and I think there would have been robust debates about OPJ vs. JMG, mostly centered around OPJ's health, and the value of JMG being bigger (not taller) than OPJ.
The point being, I think this is exactly the sort of move we need to keep the dynasty going. As much as I love keeping players, new blood is good. The hungry, ring chasing vet with something to prove is somewhat of a staple in our championship teams, and an important ingredient in what we try and do.
I'm excited for how this roster is turning out, and (health pending) I see no reason why this year's team shouldn't be even better than last year's was.
Captain Jack (13 ♡):
Steph is great and all but his resume won't be completed until he checks this off.... and I have doubts.
JaGoofus (13 ♡):
“We were the better team. They just scored more points and won more games than we did. That’s all.”
Trogdor (13 ♡):
So I get what he's saying. And that's fine. The one thing that bugs me about quotes like this is that discipline IS one aspect of about good. A very important one.
So... he could say that the Celtics were more athletic (absolutely) or more talented (debatable, but whatever), but the "better team"? Warriors absolutely were the better TEAM, and discipline is the main reason for that, not just a side bonus.
This is the reason so many super teams (not saying that the C's were a super team) fail: they think that better talent = a better team. This is only the case where the talent is so overwhelmingly better that it doesn't matter what the more disciplined team does.
TwoRingTest (12 ♡):
Damn. We need to re-sign Chiozza to the last 2 -way.
How can we pass up the Mac and Cheese?
PlainCandleLight (11 ♡):
OT: Make A Wish: Meet Klay Thompson story
JaGoofus (11 ♡):
In the previous thread where I quoted the Denver Stiff article referencing JMG’s move to center, Being astutely questioned how that would affect his 3pt%.
I think part of the answer lies in playing behind Jokic (as the backup center) last season instead of with him (as a PF) like he had in previous seasons. As Joe V pointed out https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2022/7/19/23270674/warriors-film-study-deep-dive-jamychal-green JMG relies on catch-and-shoot 3’s and basically NEVER shoots unassisted 3-pointers. If you go from playing alongside a GREAT passer with HUGE gravity, to being his backup, your open 3-point looks are likely to suffer.
As others pointed out, playing without Murray and MPJ also likely affected spacing.
tempprofile (11 ♡):
One point worth mentioning; isn't it nice that we all just assume that the 22-23 Warriors are going to the playoffs? It's almost easy to forget all those years where Warriors fans would be wondering in November who the Warriors would be able to draft the following year (if they even had draft picks).
JaGoofus (11 ♡):
Our newest Warrior has played over 10,000 NBA minutes after coming into the league as an undrafted free agent. That’s pretty rarified air and deserves our respect. I’ve changed my name accordingly.
Airgetlam (10 ♡):
[On McClung] It’s a non-guaranteed deal, basically calling dibs before training camp
Asher B. (10 ♡):
Being pretty clever, I was about to post my insights that no one else has about JaMychal Green. Since I didn't actually have any, I looked up his stats, watched some video, and tried to remember having any opinion about his game in the past. I ... don't. He's ... a player. He's not the worst, he's not the best, and everything that's been posted about him is more than I knew. So I'm in a situation of desperately wanting to say something, but not knowing anything. Of course what this does NOT mean is that I shouldn't say anything. Rather, in the current sports landscape, it's time for an IGNORANT HOT TAKE! So here goes, it's my first deliberate one, lemme know how I did:
"Guys, GUYS! The Dubs have just made THE MOVE that will I predict get them back-to-back championships for the FIRST TIME EVER. But first click like and subscribe. As you can see I'm at 11 subscribers and this month I'm making a push for 12. Thanks. Ok, Guys, You heaRD it hear first: This is AMAMZING news. JaMychal Green will fit PERFECTLY into the Warriors system! What am I talking about? Experts are saying that if yyou look at the history of the Warriors (heres random footage of some plays), they only win when theres a guy named Green playing. So far that has always been Draymond Green. For those who don't know he's a power forward on the Warrio rostrr and has been arguably their best player ever. But he's getting older and will be sitting more, so in a genius move, they are getting another guy named Green who will be playing all the minutes anytime Draumond sits. For those who don't know, sometimes a player gets tired and Coach Kerr will have them sit on the bench and substitute another player instead, which is why he won Coach of the Year six straight years!! Anywy guys thanks for the likes and welcome to the Warriors Jeff Green, and as always: We bleed purple and gold!!
No one seems to be seriously hurt, so we declare victory
BadlyBrowned (28 ♡):
I'm just excited that Wiseman's knee looks good and he'll finally have an offseason to develop and not rehab or miss due to Covid.
National Suicide Help-Dial 988 (22 ♡):
Forward JaMychal Green is finalizing a contract buyout with the Oklahoma City Thunder and plans to sign with the Golden State Warriors after he clears waivers, his agent Michael Hodges told
BKisforSF (9 ♡):
I really like the JaMychal Green signing. I feel like he’s another guy who still has left in the tank and could thrive in GS. As good an Otto replacement as we could’ve hoped for
Sleepy Freud (16 ♡):
Word. Wiseman still has a ways to go before being a consistently positive NBA player. At the same time — knocking wood furiously — did anyone during Summer League ever see him mildly limping, grimacing, doubling over, etc. the way Robert Williams did every other game in the playoffs, or the way AD has done every other game in recent years?
That facts that (1) Wiseman feels great and (2) it shows are already big wins, imo.
Alas Phood Fight (15 ♡):
The Wiseman Draft
There has been a lot of hand wringing over the years about this pick. We’ve all heard the LaMelo takes, Okongwu & Halliburton arguments. I have and would argue that even if it came down to Edwards or Wiseman, the Warriors would have still taken Wiseman. And for good cause. I understand the philosophy that you draft talent over need in general.
But I believe a critic roster construction issue made Wiseman the one and only pick and that his addition would bear the most fruit in this draft.
Here is a list of players on the rosters from 2105 to 2020 that spent most of there time at Center or a fair enough chunk. I will include % of minutes played at the center position for some. Dray & Loon are included as well with attention to their % minutes.
2015 Dray 10%, No Loon, Bogut, Speights, Ezeli, David Lee 42%
2016 Dray 20%, Loon (inj), Bogut, Speights, Ezeli, Varejao, J Thompson, McAdoo 31%
2017 Dray 20%, Loon 58%, Zaza, West, McGee, Varejao, D Jones
2018 Dray 14%, Loon 61%, Zaza, West, McGee, D Jones, J Bell 49%
2019 Dray 2%, Loon 90%, J Bell, Cousins, D Jones, Bogut
2020 Dray 4%, Loon 65%, C-Stein, Chriss, Spellman, Bender, Smiley
Not counting Dray or Loon, that is 29 guys on your roster over 6 years who played most if not all of their minutes at the center position. Bogut came by trade and later FA. Ezeli, Looney (although they did not draft him as a center), D Jones, J Bell were all drafted. The rest were acquired through Free Agency.
Over 6 years the Warriors carried an average of 5 center-centric players on their rosters over the course of each of these years. The average length of stay for all those who logged + time at center (not named Looney) is less than 2 years. When you factor in a roster size of 15, you start to see the issue. When 30%+ of your roster (not named Dray or Loon) is tied up in a never-ending parade of temporary bigs, you end up shortchanging the rest of your roster. When you add to this the fact that when it is winning time, i.e., Green moves to the 5, all these guys are reduced to cheerleading. This was not a strategy for continued roster success. In addition, Looney’s health was still in question coming off his 2019 issues. For six years, the Warriors have had to dig in the discount barrel at Best Buy for viable centers. And the more the team's salary creeped up, the deeper into the bin they would have to dig, ending with the ultimate Center Rotation of Loon, WCS, Chriss, Spellman, Bender, Smiley in 2020.
This situation was untenable. Looney had only played in 20 games in 2020. Outside of Chriss who showed some promise and was by all projections going to be the starting center in 2021, everyone else was gone and it was back to the free agent scrap heap.
Skipping all the talk about who he was and could be and comparables to his class before the draft, let’s just look at the rosters that follow.
2021 Dray 40%, Loon 100%, Wise (inj), Chriss (inj), Bell, Paschall 65%
2022 Dray 19%, Loon 99%, Beli 100%, OPJ 24%, JK 19%
2023 (projected) Dray 15%, Loon, Wise, VET MIN tbd, JK 10% (misc)
The first thing to notice is that the Dubs are carrying less bigs overall, despite the injuries. What Wiseman allowed them to do was change their mindset and approach to bigs. 2023 is what they have been envisioned since that draft. Wiseman, Looney, one ring chasing Vet Big, and Dray and JK to eat minutes on the edges, Dray in crunch time and JK in garbage time. If you consider that JK is not on the roster to be a big, then the Warriors have moved from having 5 bigs on the roster not named Dray or Loon to 2 guys on the roster not named Dray or Loon.
Based on our roster history, the drafting of Wiseman has cleared 3 roster spots in terms of altering the way the Warriors approach roster construction. Even the idea of him, while out with injury, was enough for them to scrap their old habit of dumpster diving for 5s. They now have 3 extra roster spots for forwards, wings and guards.
Lastly, the addition of Wiseman did not disrupt the core including newly acquired Wiggins whom they had faith in. The addition of Ant-Man would ultimately result in the ejection of Klay or Wiggins. The addition of LeMelo would have been Swaggy P. 2.0. Or were we going to draft those guys and tell them they would be coming off the bench for the next 6 years.
You can compare Wiseman to anyone else in that draft in a vacuum and I won’t argue with you. Ant and Melo are freaking awesome. Fun, too. Real fun. But make no mistake, Wiseman was the correct answer on that test. One of the foundation walls of the Warrior’s roster was crippled, and Wiseman was the one in that draft who could fix it. (To be fair, I was okay with Okongwu as well.)
You can talk about screen assists all you want. Even injured, Wiseman got a roster assist that will reverberate a better team for years.
Captain Jack (14 ♡):
I don't care if it really doesn't make sense roster wise, PAT BEV COME ON DOWN! The world needs to see the duo of Draymond and Pat Bev talking that sh*t on the court. Teams will be gunning for us extra hard again coming off the title so might as well embrace the villain role
Sleepy Freud (14 ♡):
Aaand all the usual Chicken Littles who loudly opined that the Warriors were done adding vets to the roster — because they had not done so in the previous fifteen seconds, so DOMG what’s happening???? — quietly return to their corners and start looking for the next thing to worry about. ;-P
So presto, there’s our stretch big — fantastic rebounder and very good three point shooter, the two biggest things we needed with the loss of Otto. Wish he could pass like DWest or Bjelly, but maybe Dre can coach him up in that regard.
Now I think all that remains is probably another vet guard-wing who can defend and handle the rock — Iguodala or Beverley? — and then I bet they’re good, at least until training camp.
belilaugh (14 ♡):
I'm really on a roll with my offseason predictions, I don't know what's going on. I was the first person here to note that Quinones had two pre-draft workouts and was a realistic target for the Warriors as a result, first person to mention the possibility of DDV signing once Sacramento declined his option, first person to note OKC was probably buying Green out and that he'd make sense for the Warriors, and from what I recall the only person here to vote for Baldwin in his group in the Draft Tourney.
I didn't see Gui Santos coming though, admittedly.
Goldarn Staid Worrier (14 ♡):
Eleven Thoughts on Summer League and the Summer Dubs (Chapter 3 - Our Guys)
9. Moody and Kuminga. Yep, good. Kuminga got to try all kinds of things - playing PG, wing, center. Bombing, dunking, passing. As live, low risk practice I think this was an awesome SL for him. Much learning possible, I hope he was into it. I didn't always love his pouty whiny body attitude but he is only 19. Moody was far more mature. Two games showing his leadership ability, scoring, passing, plus some crazy dunk attempts and other in-the-paint assertiveness was good homework done. After two games, basta, enough. Now to repeat his moves for the next two months so he is a solid back up banger for the big club.
10. Quinndary. It's funny because he paralleled Lester Q - lots of minutes, relatively quiet. But he didn't seem invisible, quite the opposite. Old QW seemed to go to the right spots on offense, play good solid switching defense, make some shots when called upon, and in general play well. I just kept noticing him. High NF. I hope he gets a 2-way spot, I think he's good enough.
11. James Wiseman. What can I say that hasn't already been said? What I saw was a lot of size, a lot of skill, and fast learning. Seemed like he improved on something every game. Steadily better positioning. Steadily improving rim protection and rebounding. Didn't look confused on defense. Not great on PnR action, but seemed to be trying different approaches as time progressed. With better quality players and play makers around him, I think we're going to see a better JW than we saw two seasons ago. Yea, Giannis and Jokic are going to be hard on him. And he's going to blow coverages. And miss hius spots on O. But assuming health, I think Spring 2023 JW will be many leaps up from Autumn 2022 JW. This will also be a test of coaching, to put him in spots in which he can succeed. I'll be cheering for him every step of the way.
National Suicide Help-Dial 988 (11 ♡):
I'll allow it.
If the Warriors get the versions of JaMychal Green and Donte Divicenzo from two seasons ago, they’re going to be very, very good.
Goldarn Staid Worrier (11 ♡):
This Curry dude is baffling. This past season he shot crazily well from 3 point land on Mondays (.433), Thursdays (.465) and Fridays (.419). Sundays (.293) and Wednesdays (.319) were disasters. So damn inconsistent. Clearly he shouldn’t be allowed on the court three days of the week. Needs to get traded right now for Seth Curry. #WastingSethsPrime
Sleepy Freud (11 ♡):
Added bonus with JMG: the three teams that have let him go — whom he presumably would not mind sticking it to — are MEM, DEN, and LAC. Likely our three biggest competitors in the West.
Also: .610 career TS in the playoffs (49 games, 820 minutes).
Dilly (11 ♡):
Wiseman Island - you'd better stake out your spot now:
"It just bodes well for the rest of his summer," Mahlalela said. "He can now do development work and not do rehab work. That's a fundamentally different thing for him and we're just -- as a coaching staff and organization -- excited for that process and for him to learn and grow and come into training camp a different player, because he's actually had a summer where he can work."
AttilaTheHun (10 ♡):
I have to find the article I read about that but apparently they legally can't pull the QO. BUT if he's convicted of a felony, there is a morals clause in the standard NBA contract that presumably would let the Hornets out of the deal.
Mr Teal (10 ♡):
Belila--prolly gonna let us know about this all year--ugh!
Sleepy Freud (9 ♡):
Aw, I gotta be petty occasionally! Of course I should be bigger, but I’ll never understand the immediate shift into negativity/concern mode of a vocal segment of Warrior fans like, before the kisses on the Larry O’Brien trophy were even dry. It’s just sad to me that winning it all — the whole point of everything, in this corner of the world — seems more like a brief break in the battle for some folks.
And it’s hard to see the “growth” when we get the same levels of anhedonia and gratuitous negativity, year after year, even as the Warriors keep giving us so much to be joyful and positive about.
But you’re right, I shouldn’t exacerbate matters by being gratuitously negative about the gratuitous negativity. Carry on… :-)
Chasing Rings... (9 ♡):
And he sayeth unto Joe, "Accept these 7 feet of Frankensteinian gifts for the baby Threesus that he may enjoy solid screens and lob threats.". And Lo, Joe was indeed pleased with the prophesized Wise man as he joined Moses and St Johnathan at the Poole Party of Jordan.
Sleepy Freud (9 ♡):
Ryan Rollins: Rally Nor Sin
Patrick Baldwin: Rapid Black Twin
Gui Santos: Go Sustain
Lester Quinones: Quietness Loner
James Wiseman: Mean Wise Jams
Jonathan Kuminga: Naught Ninja Amok
Moses Moody: Some Sodomy
Gotta say, for a guy who wears #00, “Naught Ninja” is a pretty cool nickname (not that he needs anymore…)
vignette17 (8 ♡):
Look OPJ has more talent than JMG. OPJ was the #3 pick and had a $100M+ contract. But in terms of actual production on the Dubs?
Per 36 OPJ last year: 13.3/9.3/2.4 on .464/.370/.804
Per 36 JMG career: 13.6/9.9/1.6 on .472/.366/.785
Arash (8 ♡):
This is an absolutely fantastic signing! Green is a very solid multipositional player/defender (SF/PF/C) who can stroke it from distance AND has a considerable amount of experience in the playoffs!
Along with the Donte signing, we now have 8 playoff tested veterans we can lean on come playoff time which allows for us the flexibility to develop the youth during the NBA season.
Between Kuminga/Wiseman/Moody, all we need is one of them to develop enough to have at minimum a Bjelica level impact and we'll have a 9 man rotation ready for the playoffs to get a second chip.
Imagine what happens if all three of our youngsters make a leap? How deep would our team be?
Maybe Wiseman will get more reps
Trogdor (13 ♡):
Really happy with what I've seen with Wiseman in SL. He's progressed from game to game, especially in things like rebounding and screening. He's also clearly one of the best players on the floor when he's out there.
Accordingly, he gets a lot of defensive attention on him. It will be fun to see when he plays with the big team when he's only like the third offensive option when he's out there. Should be able to get more low post touches end good passes while cutting.
He still has a long ways to go, by really happy thus far.
Alas Phood Fight (12 ♡):
Wow, Hot Stove Wiseman chatter. I'm in.
In judging talent, most people make the mistake of looking at a player's skills in a vacuum, as if basketball was a one-on-one game. Wiseman can still bring immense value to the Warriors even if his game is limited, even if he doesn't meet everyone's expectations based on him being drafted 2nd. Wiggins has been with us for 2 1/2 years and he didn't really seal the deal (fans are ALL IN) until these playoffs, and he has been in the league for years,
I thought the value that Wiseman could bring now was pretty obvious. A young athletic big who can eat minutes against the plethora of bigs in this league. He doesn't have to be Dikembe Mutumbo. But every minute Wiseman has a body on Gobert, Jokic, Embiid, JJJ, etc, is a minute that Green or Looney isn't guarding them. Who thinks going another full season with Green (back issues) and Looney (already played 104 games last year) playing major minutes every night banging. Wiseman will have a negative plus/minus next year. Get over it. But maybe, if the guy gives us 20-24 a night, we get into next post-season and Green and Looney won't be trashed. The league is getting bigger and faster. The Warriors aren't going to keep winning Chips without closing the athletic gap. And having Wiseman is the best insurance we can have on the health of Green & Loon.
And remember when we had a vertical spacer? McGee? Remember how many easy freaking dunks he got. If Wiseman converts 80% of what McGee used to its a win. And when you combine East-West spacing with our shooters with a vertical spacer, and you got Draymond driving the lane, it's a whole new world.
Yeah he is going to suck sometimes and make boneheaded plays. But every player has value beyond their obvious skills or lack thereof. Its not Wiseman vs Ball or Ant Man. Or Wiseman vs. another versatile wing. Its about all the different roles he can play on our team and how they impact the team as a whole. I believe the FO has a real good idea about that value and that they are fully in on him.
TwoRingTest (12 ♡):
So, at a minimum, we're going to have seven players in their early 20s on the roster:
Poole, Kuminga, Moody, Wiseman, PBJ, Rollins, Quinones, [ maybe Santos ].
I henceforth dub (get it?) thee:
Poole and the Gang.
Alas Phood Fight (11 ♡):
Nice article on Quinones this morning in the Chron. Another culture move, 6-5, 6-10 wingspan, 39% 3 point shooter 2 years in College. And he's Wiseman's old buddy from Memphis and it appears the Warriors were his favorite team to boot. I mean, how many boxes does that check off?
Appears he has legit skills for a 2-way contract. (Plus 2 workouts with team)
It gives Wiseman his own confidant on the team, someone to talk to after getting advice from 14 Hall of Famers.
If the Warriors decide at any given point in time that Wiseman could use a little extended run in the G League, having his buddy running point down there softens the potential pride blow and gives Wiseman a personal reason to enjoy the assignment. Maybe good minutes with Lester can help showcase Lester's skills and help smooth his buddy's path to the NBA.
And if he is good, he fills a position of need and he will get run in the regular season (Chiozza's old minutes), likely paired with Wiseman in some second unit run.
You can understand why they had this guy signed to a 2-way 3 minutes after the draft. The Warriors don't just draft (or acquire) guys on basketball skills alone. There always seems to be a secondary motive or personal attribute that they glom onto that helps make their decision.
I like the move.
GhostRidingTheInjuryCart (10 ♡):
Jama Mahlalela thought tonight was James Wiseman's best game of summer league
"It just bodes well for the rest of his summer. He can now do development work and not do rehab work."
7:10 PM · Jul 17, 2022
That's great if true.
tempprofile (10 ♡):
I'm just really happy he has played significant minutes in 3 games without having any knee issues. That in and of itself is huge.
One more summer league game on Sunday 4:30
Goofus (15 ♡):
I don’t if everyone saw the signs I posted around campus, but us Santos fans are organizing. We’re planning on writing and performing song-and-dance routines about him. If you’d like to audition for the Gui Club, our first meeting is in the cafeteria after school on Monday.
Goofus (12 ♡):
What I like about Wiseman over these first three SL games:
- His presence as a rim protector has been obvious
- He’s making more effort to box out
- His screen-setting is improving (good breakdown from Joe V https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2022/7/15/23220929/warriors-thunder-summer-league-james-wiseman-screen-setting-film-breakdown)
If this keeps up, my goal/vision of him being “Javale with a jumper” looks pretty realistic this season
AttilaTheHun (9 ♡):
Looked at another way, it's comedy.
Alas Phood Fight (9 ♡):
You know what would be cool (but impossible)? It would be great if we all just stopped talking about Wiseman's development and instead just treated him like a normal NBA player. We all know he is young and is going to get better. But for now, coming out of the gate in his third year, maybe he is a D Lee type of player. Has some good nights, has some stinkers, has some "Meh" nights and might even help you win a game or two over the year. The kid is going to be as good as he can be on any given night, and as my wife often reminds our children, "Sorry kids, that's what we got for dinner."
Speaking of what's for dinner, development is like a Chicken Pot Pie. How many times can we take it out of the oven and talk about how good it 'could be' before its actually done? So I say: F it, Let the kids play and don't mind the furniture. BandAids are in the hall closet if you need 'em.
Players gotta crawl before they can dunk. Rather than muse relentlessly over what all these guys could be, I will try to enjoy the aggravating and amusing pratfalls of their youth and the lasting memories they are going to generate.
Ahhh, who the F am I kidding! Let's talk about Moody.
I see a Danny Green type of ... with more .... and his athleticism will certainly .... while many felt his floor ... and by year 5 ... (fade into oblivion)
Goldarn Staid Worrier (9 ♡):
I don’t remember ever watching Summer League before. This year I’ve watched all the Vegas Dubs games (skipped the CA Classic, was on the road with the fam). And I’ve enjoyed them despite the general lack of winning. Am I mature enough to genuinely put aside my desire for winning and objectively get pleasure from the real value of SL (practice for the young guns)? Or is my soul dead? I for sure enjoyed the one win - come back and game breaking JK free throw against all odds.
Truth be told, I’ve loved watching JK, JW, and Moody try stuff. Gather data for their summer training regimen. Practice against live bodies. These guys should be part of the Dubs’ rotation this year, and need to learn fast. If they suck it will mean regular season losses, which I for sure will NOT enjoy.
The rest of the guys have not done much to pluck my heart strings. Mac is a selfish clanker (trying desperately to get a job, yea, but I’m not buying). Gui has had brief shiny glows emanating from him in faint but glorious whispers but mostly been trying too hard with youthful recklessness. I did notice that he seemed to mostly be playing with scrubs so didn’t have much team to work with. Quindary has shown some flashes, he’s ok. Quiñones has been somewhere between invisible and meh. The rest of the weak assortment of spastic tall guys, non-shooters and foul fodder clearly are there to take up space and they do a fine job of it.
So, thank you Dubs for some summer basketball entertainment! I look forward to the Sunday game. Then a solid two months of sad quietude and repetitive rosterbation here on DNHQ. After the last SL romp I’ll share my 11 Concluding Thoughts About Summer League. I’m sure you’re all waiting for that!!
Holy crap. Poole mentioned Wiggs Island.
Asher B. (6 ♡):
This is outrageous. I've heard some absurd analysis in my life but this? I mean, I agree that he's polarizing. I agree that he might either be a superstar or a bust. I agree that summer league doesn't indicate much about regular season performance, and that the focus was on getting reps and working on discreet skills. But shaved brussel sprouts in a chicken pot pie? SHAVED BRUSSEL SPROUTS? You have gone way, way too far with that. Do you realize how many pot pies I have eaten in my life? The number cannot be in mere four digits. Not once has a chicken pot pie had -- that thing you're saying, which I won't type again. This site. I'm outta here.
rebranding as the OKC Thinder
Captain Jack (13 ♡):
Man, I know everyone says this about young prospects but i really can’t believe JK is only 19. His game still has a lot of flaws but the stuff he does have down is special. Unless he turns into a Kyrie/KD mix and becomes a full on diva this dude will be pretty damn good for us in his mid 20s once he starts to figure the rest of his game out
thesarunas (13 ♡):
Cause you can't hurry love.
belilaugh (12 ♡):
I'm really liking Santos' game.
jeckyllhouse (10 ♡):
need the Summer Dubs to get the dub so we can get an Explain One Play, I'm going through withdrawal
Nate P (9 ♡):
Something that shouldn’t go unnoticed: Wiseman is definitely affecting things in the paint defensively. Guards are hesitating to shoot or kicking out when they see him START to rotate over. Definitely hard to know if that’ll be the case in a regular season game, but it’s more noticeable tonight than other nights even if he doesn’t end up with a whole lot of blocks.
notoriousA.B.E. (9 ♡):
They'll have to rename it the Gui League
Alas Phood Fight (9 ♡):
Keeping it real on Wiseman. He will take the longest to develop, but could still have the highest peak. I am all for patience and development. But it's about time I come clean with you all and explain what my biggest reservation is about J Dub, what he did and what it could mean for the future of this organization.
In his rookie season in transition, James led a break with Oubre pushing the ball past half court. James put up his hand while entering the key, Oubre through a perfect lob pass which James caught in stride and proceeded to violate the net and rim with a thunderous 2-hand dunk. Time was called to report the crime and as James turned back up court, Oubre was well positioned for a shout out high 5 and James flat out Ghosted him. He passed right through him like Vision from the Marvel series. So disrespectful. Whatever your feelings are about Oubre, that was the best lob James got all year (unlike the bad lob thrown by Dray that ended in a sprained wrist for James) and Oubre, for all his faults, deserved better. When I re-watch this play, I am reminded of the 1970s commercial that has an American Indian standing on the side of the highway as some rednecks toss out a bag of garbage onto our pristine land and then we zoom in on the American Indian who has a tear streaming down his cheek. It hurt me.
So what does this mean? Pulling the tongue out of my cheek, it means this. He is not self-centered or selfish in a negative sense. But in an athletic sense, he appears very results orientated, very focused on the success or failure of his own actions, and his self-judgment may be a tad overzealous. Of course, who would look at the fierce competitor that Klay is today and draw a straight line to the young rook in the locker room who barely said a word? No one. I am not trying to make a judgment on Wiseman, rather a casual observation of where he is today in his own head.
About 99% of basketball players in history have focused on scoring points first when they enter the league. The scorekeeper doesn't put points up on the board for good screens, blocks or steals. It's natural that James is "Looking" for his shot and that other players on the court may feel pressed to "Look for him." This just turns into bad basketball. What James needs more than anything else is
1. Next Play. Forget the result of any play or action that has already happened because by that time, the play is somewhere else. He needs to allow himself all the time in the world he needs for self-judgment when the ball is NOT in play.
2. Stop looking for the ball. It's not how the Warriors play. It's why guys like Oubre flamed out. IN the Warriors system, you don't FIND your shot, the SHOT FINDS YOU. And it only finds you in the natural process of moving, passing, screening, rebounding, etc. The more James tries to show he belongs in this league, the faster he will be playing for another team in the league.
It's not an easy ask. The Warriors system asks all of its players to ignore things they believed about basketball and how its played their entire lives. Things like "you can be just as dangerous without the ball in your hands" and "we don't want you to block the shot, we just want you to alter the shot." It's not easy. But the path to being a real Warrior is this: it's not about you. The Self must be sacrificed. The personal rewards must be subjugated to the greater whole. That wicked two-handed jam was not your success! It was only an aspect of something larger, something much more powerful: teamwork.
Brah, you owe Obre 5.
bloophero (9 ♡):
Currently kicking myself for having 4 children and not naming them all the same name but spelt using 4 different variations. ONE CHANCE and I blew it!
Chaos_Samedi (8 ♡):
Cj was nice as a commentator, those are the insights and analytical things I'd love to hear every game
Summer League Dreams Edition
Sabrina-Kevon with the bag! (20 ♡):
Substack disrupts my vibe of going through and hearting all comments when I can't heart all the comments.
Apricot says: It’s a Substack bug which counts the Like but doesn’t show it right away on the screen… usually takes a reload to see it.
Eric Apricot (17 ♡):
On the checkbook wins from a neutral writer:
“Was GSW supposed to let their own players leave? Are GSW to be faulted for drafting and developing, and then paying, Stephen Curry, Draymond and Klay Thompson? How about Jordan Poole when he’s next to sign a big new deal?
If the answer is no, then what’s the crying about?”
Hashemite Kingdom (16 ♡):
I'll repeat what I said earlier this year: Draymond enables Steph.
Doesn't everyone remember what happened to Steph's scoring while Draymond was out with the back injury last winter?
I want nothing to do with any KD trade scenario that involves Draymond, and I'm shocked at the lack of appreciation Draymond gets sometimes. He's really one of a kind.
Sleepy Freud (9 ♡):
I HATE not being a to express my love for all the posts of my choosing!
Sabrina-Kevon with the bag! (9 ♡):
James Wiseman and Jonathan Kuminga will play for the Warriors summer league team vs the Thunder tomorrow. If OKC plays Chet Holmgren, it’ll be a spotlight test for Wiseman. Moses Moody status TBD. Fell hard late in last game.
DFiB (9 ♡):
KD outside Steph's window with a boombox?
Asher B. (8 ♡):
Interesting discussion by Jason Timpf about striving for the optimal balance between the league's interests, a team's interests, and a player's interests. It's complicated, and I'd be interested in the thoughts of others on the related questions. Take KD's situation. If we look at him from a sort of general fan perspective, we would possibly say "We want teams to build and retain well, we want more loyalty like Giannis or Steph. It makes for a better product, and fans get to build a relationship with players, which is not only more fun but is financially better for all parties because the fan base of a successful loyal team grows significantly. You voluntarily signed a long-term contract with the Nets, you make obscene amounts of money, now go play and stop demanding trades."
But if we look at it from the player's perspective, it's more, "Hey, KD, you have terrific value. That's leverage. Use it as you see fit. In few other occupations do people sign such lengthy binding contracts. Most importantly the league's legal structure as a single business with franchises effectively puts you up against a trust that restricts your rights. A Google employee can pretty much quit any time and try her hand over at Apple, if they want her. But a Net who signs a contract with Brooklyn is not even permitted to talk to Sacramento. Not that anyone would want to talk to the Kangz, but you get the idea. We support your efforts to determine your fate, because you're a human being, not a basketbot. Sure, you make a lot of money, but so do the owners. You want a trade, try to get a trade."
(On perhaps a side note, I always find it pretty shocking that a seemingly powerful player, with leverage, and with a family and kids in school, can get traded from say Miami to Toronto to Utah in a year; and they pretty much can't do anything about it. Imagine the disruption to your life if that happened. Some players decide to leave the kids in their schools, and fly to go see them, some move the kids around which is almost always bad for a kid's development. The kid needs a stable situation, not to try to make new friends every few months. It's pretty damned hard to lead a normal healthy family life, and I worry about those kids in that sense. Even living in the same town, the player is often on the road. Then someone comes along and says to the kid "You're so lucky, your family is wealthy, your father is famous and talented, what a rebounder, the city loves him," and, my guess is, the kid thinks "It's really not all roses, I'd rather have a father who's home every evening." Maybe the spouse agrees... maybe not...)
Timpf comments at 18:17 of
Night Night (7 ♡):
Looney's contract is very team friendly. He's worth a lot more...
IMO, there's one critical measure of a team's starting center: Can they stay on the court in the post-season? Many centers (including Ayton, Gobert, Adams, and others) saw their minutes reduced. Looney was getting significant minutes alongside the likes of Jokic, Embiid, Bam, Williams III, etc. Not to say Looney is of the same caliber, but that should be a defining factor in contract negotiations with bigs - whether they're good enough to stay on the court during the post-season.
Looney checks that box in a big way. Hashtag get that bag.
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