Lots of fans are excited by Wiseman. I also want him to do well but I am not excited. He doesn't know how to play the game. He's athletic and big with long arms but most of what the excitement is about has been 'potential' not really performance. That may or may not come so easily. There is no guarantee. There are only two aspects to the game, offense and defense. Because Wiseman is big, you would think he would be a supreme rebounder and rim protector. So far, he is not. When I think of a great rebounder, I always think of Faried who was a force in the paint. Wiseman seems not to have a nose for the ball on defense. He is not positioned to get rebounds, his hands seem soft, and his timing is not sharp. He can dunk but he doesn't get to the rim. He prefers a perimeter or mid-range shot. The Dubs want to use him for spacing the floor. But I think he belongs in the paint. If they are not going to play him in the paint, then why did they draft him? Kerr is notorious for not maximizing size. He has never focused on the big man and quite frankly, I don't think he will or can do it. Bogut has been the only big guy we've had who was a real basketball player on both ends and could be the setup man in the paint. That team was arguably the greatest one we've had. I cannot imagine Wiseman growing into that kind of player especially with Kerr at the helm. Expecting Draymond to rebound and challenge big guys will take its toll on him. He did it before but age has a way of slowing you down and nothing stays the same forever. Wiseman will probably get destroyed by the more 'traditional' big guys that play in the paint. His learning curve needs to be enormous if he is ever to get it. I see a very raw player but with desire. I'm hoping that desire translates to the NBA game. That is not easy to do as the talent level is tremendous.
It wasn't a rant. I'm not pissed off about Wiseman and the pick. I was just stating my view which is different than a lot of the homies on here. That is what boards like this are for, diverse opinions and views. I wasn't being disrespectful and my next to last sentence said I'm hoping that desire he has can translate into an NBA game. Is that disrespect? I don't get it.
Kerr knows more about basketball than I will ever know. That doesn't mean he will win more championships. It's not his ideas that I am at odds with. He likes small ball. Nellie liked it too. I like it used at appropriate moments in a game as mismatches often work in favor of the offense. But I don't like being forced into small ball because the team is not on the same page and the big men can't quite score enough or move fast enough.
It will remain to be seen what this team looks like in the 2nd half of the season and beyond and which players survive to play another year here. Every team goes through these changes periodically. Some survive well, others nose dive. So far, we've nosedived through our misfortunes. But glad the young players are making millions and entertaining us.
It's not me against the fans. In fact, Wiseman had a very good game tonight and I was very encouraged to see him moving well, rebounding, and actually trying to be in position for put backs. If he continues to give us games like this I'll have nothing to question his game with. Like Paschall, whom I saw no change earlier this season from last season, he is giving us great PT and playing like a champ at C. Of course, I'd rather start Wiseman.
Wiseman is a great proyect...but is that..a proyect. I dont know if start games with him is the ideal.
Superstars destroyed us from the perimeter....and a part of that is because wiseman is lost on defense ...hes 19..
we should start with looney andtry to play better defense from the start, then put wiseman with the less talented guys...he will still learn and we will have a chance to make the playoffs, but that wont happen if we still give up 45% on 3pt to others teams.
We also need to start with lee instead of oubre, we cant play steph with 3 or 4 non shoters...
looney, dray, wiggins, lee curry and from the bench oubre, wiseman, wanamaker toscano and mulder looks more balanced
Everything else aside, I'm really glad Draymond is back. You could see him getting in there to grab loose balls, contest shots, and push the ball ahead in transition even if it didn't all work out.
During the 2nd & 3rd Q's Portland really defended strong though. They made it difficult to make *any* pass and then feasted on turnovers when guys who should know better tried to force them. (I'm looking at you, DLee & JTA.)
Wiseman is still really unpolished, and that's part of why the team is bad; he has a hard time actually holding on to rebounds even when he's in the right place for them. I am starting to wonder how much his game is actually kind of like "Kevin Durant, except with an average shooting touch" rather than "Giannis but with a jumper".
Also, Dame was just hot this game and that's not something anyone can do much about.
But my biggest concern right now is Oubre. I didn't see any of the defensive stopper who frustrated Detroit, and I also didn't see a guy who can make 3's (or any shot) even decently often. I don't know how a guy's career averages can bottom out so suddenly without an injury or something, but I hope Kerr & co. can figure out, because right now he's dragging the whole team down.
With Curry, I buy that the lack of a live audience is holding him back a little since it's well-known he feeds off that energy. Wonder if Oubre is like that, too. Seems like it would match what we know of his personality.
Man, I don't know, when I watch Wiseman it looks to me like he's a big part of why they are currently so bad. I'm hopeful about his future, but the Warriors didn't sign a veteran, defensive-minded center so his present play has to be part of the overall evaluation of why the team is struggling. The trial by fire approach might have benefits long term but we are currently seeing the downsides, imo.
Defensively, he's seemed slow to react and looks uncomfortable out on the perimeter which imo is part of all the open threes the Warriors are giving up. Kerr keeps talking about 5 guys being connected out there but it's tough when Wiseman is one of them and doesn't know where to be. Wiseman also seems contact averse, which doesn't help him rebound the ball or roll to the basket. On that one play where he caught the ball in the air and got fouled by Nurkic with a light arm hit, he should have had an easy and one dunk. But I think he was more worried about Nurkic hitting him than finishing. Although, it could also be because his hands might not be that great. Or it could be nothing and he just missed a dunk he'd normally make. We'll see as the season goes on.
Wiseman's speed is immediately an NBA-level weapon that can help justify him being on the floor as he learns defensively, but the Warriors doesn't seem to be utilizing it at all? I hate to sound like a basic Twitter coach, but it has been odd how few Curry/Wiseman high pick and rolls they've been running in favor of trying to get Wiseman midrange shots, no?
Most teams struggle that start a rookie...even the Mavs with Doncic, or Zion w the Pels. Its about growth, and thats what's most important for future years.
We will rise again like a glorious phoenix next season...with two more high profile rookies...but the big 3 should be back in a big way to mix well with the young bucks. Meanwhile, let Wiseman take his lumps and the team suck with him starting. Its the only real way he'll learn and the fastest way to get Kerr's complex schemes.
Agree with all this BUT he has already shown minor improvement is some areas (like not jumping at pump fakes as much) in just 5 games! Which makes me think he might look a lot better even by mid-season
I know this offense took time for the 2014-2015 team to learn, but man does it feel like we just don't have the right guys to keep running this motion offense. Oubre and Wiggins pretty much just chuck/drive into traffic the second they touch the ball, and don't seem all that capable in making reads. Wiseman has no idea where he's supposed to be, which isn't surprising for a rookie, but he is probably capable of running basic PnRs.
I guess the glass half full takeway for this game is that Paschall is looking more like the player we saw last year in his last couple of games. As a team, the Warriors appear to have no idea how to play defense but that's probably to be expected given how few games they have played together.
Thinking I'd like to experiment with Baze in the starting rotation, use KO's energy and chaos with the 2's. Any historic examples of a guy like JWise being taught physicality over time? I could live with what's there now but am imagining what if.
Seems like he’s more physical in second halves. Like it’s an adjustment. Someone reminds him at half time to get in the mix a bit more and bump some guys. I think he can learn.
This is definitely something I’ve been thinking about — I’m not a strength & conditioning person so I’m never one to harp on whether someone should bulk up, but to play interior D and really compete on the boards it’s clear he’s just going to need to build some muscle. I just liked that (it seemed) he was in the mix on the boards a bit more often last night, even if he didn’t end up coming down with the ball every time
Gobert might be a good comparison for how a naturally maturing physique can help inside. His rebounding numbers have increased every year. Wiseman has entered the league two years younger and about 10-15 lbs heavier, so he has a head start.
Excited about Wiseman. But, and I’m struggling for the right phrasing or words here, I gotta confess: I thought how he handled or reacted (or something) to the ankle tweak was odd.
I don’t know how to put it in appropriate words and I’m not trying to be mean so don’t murder me. LOL
Over my 60+ years of playing sports, I've always been the most freaked when I injure a body part for the first time... you think the world is over and your quality of life is finished. So far I have always recovered, and in some cases learned to live with healed body parts that might ache, or need babying. By now, of course, my entire body needs lots of babying, but I can still get out and get a good heart rate, and a good sweat going. If my back goes out I just say, 'damn, 3 weeks of recuperation, and I'll be back almost to my original condition.' As a 19 year old, he's probably just figuring out that things get hurt and he has to learn how to take care of them when they are tweaked.
I'm over the moon with the excitement of Wiseman's potential.
I saw the same. Perhaps a single game moment where he was overwhelmed by his lack of offensive production and 5 games of banging with some of the biggest athletes on the planet. I was just trying to survive academics and D3 baseball when I was 19.
Also, if you are playing for a team where everyone over the last two years seemingly has torn a ligament or tendon of some kind or other there might be a bit more angst when one goes down. And pain and severity of injury also do not always match. Wiseman has barely had time even to figure out what his body feels like when he's actually hurt.
Also, it was just a few days ago that he saw his teammate go down with an ankle injury that turned out to be season-ending. That might’ve spooked him even more.
Lots of fans are excited by Wiseman. I also want him to do well but I am not excited. He doesn't know how to play the game. He's athletic and big with long arms but most of what the excitement is about has been 'potential' not really performance. That may or may not come so easily. There is no guarantee. There are only two aspects to the game, offense and defense. Because Wiseman is big, you would think he would be a supreme rebounder and rim protector. So far, he is not. When I think of a great rebounder, I always think of Faried who was a force in the paint. Wiseman seems not to have a nose for the ball on defense. He is not positioned to get rebounds, his hands seem soft, and his timing is not sharp. He can dunk but he doesn't get to the rim. He prefers a perimeter or mid-range shot. The Dubs want to use him for spacing the floor. But I think he belongs in the paint. If they are not going to play him in the paint, then why did they draft him? Kerr is notorious for not maximizing size. He has never focused on the big man and quite frankly, I don't think he will or can do it. Bogut has been the only big guy we've had who was a real basketball player on both ends and could be the setup man in the paint. That team was arguably the greatest one we've had. I cannot imagine Wiseman growing into that kind of player especially with Kerr at the helm. Expecting Draymond to rebound and challenge big guys will take its toll on him. He did it before but age has a way of slowing you down and nothing stays the same forever. Wiseman will probably get destroyed by the more 'traditional' big guys that play in the paint. His learning curve needs to be enormous if he is ever to get it. I see a very raw player but with desire. I'm hoping that desire translates to the NBA game. That is not easy to do as the talent level is tremendous.
It wasn't a rant. I'm not pissed off about Wiseman and the pick. I was just stating my view which is different than a lot of the homies on here. That is what boards like this are for, diverse opinions and views. I wasn't being disrespectful and my next to last sentence said I'm hoping that desire he has can translate into an NBA game. Is that disrespect? I don't get it.
Kerr knows more about basketball than I will ever know. That doesn't mean he will win more championships. It's not his ideas that I am at odds with. He likes small ball. Nellie liked it too. I like it used at appropriate moments in a game as mismatches often work in favor of the offense. But I don't like being forced into small ball because the team is not on the same page and the big men can't quite score enough or move fast enough.
It will remain to be seen what this team looks like in the 2nd half of the season and beyond and which players survive to play another year here. Every team goes through these changes periodically. Some survive well, others nose dive. So far, we've nosedived through our misfortunes. But glad the young players are making millions and entertaining us.
It's not me against the fans. In fact, Wiseman had a very good game tonight and I was very encouraged to see him moving well, rebounding, and actually trying to be in position for put backs. If he continues to give us games like this I'll have nothing to question his game with. Like Paschall, whom I saw no change earlier this season from last season, he is giving us great PT and playing like a champ at C. Of course, I'd rather start Wiseman.
Wiseman is a great proyect...but is that..a proyect. I dont know if start games with him is the ideal.
Superstars destroyed us from the perimeter....and a part of that is because wiseman is lost on defense ...hes 19..
we should start with looney andtry to play better defense from the start, then put wiseman with the less talented guys...he will still learn and we will have a chance to make the playoffs, but that wont happen if we still give up 45% on 3pt to others teams.
We also need to start with lee instead of oubre, we cant play steph with 3 or 4 non shoters...
looney, dray, wiggins, lee curry and from the bench oubre, wiseman, wanamaker toscano and mulder looks more balanced
Everything else aside, I'm really glad Draymond is back. You could see him getting in there to grab loose balls, contest shots, and push the ball ahead in transition even if it didn't all work out.
During the 2nd & 3rd Q's Portland really defended strong though. They made it difficult to make *any* pass and then feasted on turnovers when guys who should know better tried to force them. (I'm looking at you, DLee & JTA.)
Wiseman is still really unpolished, and that's part of why the team is bad; he has a hard time actually holding on to rebounds even when he's in the right place for them. I am starting to wonder how much his game is actually kind of like "Kevin Durant, except with an average shooting touch" rather than "Giannis but with a jumper".
Also, Dame was just hot this game and that's not something anyone can do much about.
But my biggest concern right now is Oubre. I didn't see any of the defensive stopper who frustrated Detroit, and I also didn't see a guy who can make 3's (or any shot) even decently often. I don't know how a guy's career averages can bottom out so suddenly without an injury or something, but I hope Kerr & co. can figure out, because right now he's dragging the whole team down.
With Curry, I buy that the lack of a live audience is holding him back a little since it's well-known he feeds off that energy. Wonder if Oubre is like that, too. Seems like it would match what we know of his personality.
This is not who Oubre is. It’s obviously frustrating for everyone, but he will relax into a flow at some point.
Klay in the walking boot looks upbeat in the Instagram video
Man, I don't know, when I watch Wiseman it looks to me like he's a big part of why they are currently so bad. I'm hopeful about his future, but the Warriors didn't sign a veteran, defensive-minded center so his present play has to be part of the overall evaluation of why the team is struggling. The trial by fire approach might have benefits long term but we are currently seeing the downsides, imo.
Defensively, he's seemed slow to react and looks uncomfortable out on the perimeter which imo is part of all the open threes the Warriors are giving up. Kerr keeps talking about 5 guys being connected out there but it's tough when Wiseman is one of them and doesn't know where to be. Wiseman also seems contact averse, which doesn't help him rebound the ball or roll to the basket. On that one play where he caught the ball in the air and got fouled by Nurkic with a light arm hit, he should have had an easy and one dunk. But I think he was more worried about Nurkic hitting him than finishing. Although, it could also be because his hands might not be that great. Or it could be nothing and he just missed a dunk he'd normally make. We'll see as the season goes on.
Wiseman's speed is immediately an NBA-level weapon that can help justify him being on the floor as he learns defensively, but the Warriors doesn't seem to be utilizing it at all? I hate to sound like a basic Twitter coach, but it has been odd how few Curry/Wiseman high pick and rolls they've been running in favor of trying to get Wiseman midrange shots, no?
Most teams struggle that start a rookie...even the Mavs with Doncic, or Zion w the Pels. Its about growth, and thats what's most important for future years.
We will rise again like a glorious phoenix next season...with two more high profile rookies...but the big 3 should be back in a big way to mix well with the young bucks. Meanwhile, let Wiseman take his lumps and the team suck with him starting. Its the only real way he'll learn and the fastest way to get Kerr's complex schemes.
Agree with all this BUT he has already shown minor improvement is some areas (like not jumping at pump fakes as much) in just 5 games! Which makes me think he might look a lot better even by mid-season
I know this offense took time for the 2014-2015 team to learn, but man does it feel like we just don't have the right guys to keep running this motion offense. Oubre and Wiggins pretty much just chuck/drive into traffic the second they touch the ball, and don't seem all that capable in making reads. Wiseman has no idea where he's supposed to be, which isn't surprising for a rookie, but he is probably capable of running basic PnRs.
If this continues I think at some point Bob has to consider a Trade package for Beal.
I guess the glass half full takeway for this game is that Paschall is looking more like the player we saw last year in his last couple of games. As a team, the Warriors appear to have no idea how to play defense but that's probably to be expected given how few games they have played together.
Thinking I'd like to experiment with Baze in the starting rotation, use KO's energy and chaos with the 2's. Any historic examples of a guy like JWise being taught physicality over time? I could live with what's there now but am imagining what if.
Seems like he’s more physical in second halves. Like it’s an adjustment. Someone reminds him at half time to get in the mix a bit more and bump some guys. I think he can learn.
This is definitely something I’ve been thinking about — I’m not a strength & conditioning person so I’m never one to harp on whether someone should bulk up, but to play interior D and really compete on the boards it’s clear he’s just going to need to build some muscle. I just liked that (it seemed) he was in the mix on the boards a bit more often last night, even if he didn’t end up coming down with the ball every time
Gobert might be a good comparison for how a naturally maturing physique can help inside. His rebounding numbers have increased every year. Wiseman has entered the league two years younger and about 10-15 lbs heavier, so he has a head start.
Excited about Wiseman. But, and I’m struggling for the right phrasing or words here, I gotta confess: I thought how he handled or reacted (or something) to the ankle tweak was odd.
I don’t know how to put it in appropriate words and I’m not trying to be mean so don’t murder me. LOL
Over my 60+ years of playing sports, I've always been the most freaked when I injure a body part for the first time... you think the world is over and your quality of life is finished. So far I have always recovered, and in some cases learned to live with healed body parts that might ache, or need babying. By now, of course, my entire body needs lots of babying, but I can still get out and get a good heart rate, and a good sweat going. If my back goes out I just say, 'damn, 3 weeks of recuperation, and I'll be back almost to my original condition.' As a 19 year old, he's probably just figuring out that things get hurt and he has to learn how to take care of them when they are tweaked.
I'm over the moon with the excitement of Wiseman's potential.
Love this.
So true, first time I rolled my ankle I thought it was broken, after the 4th time (slow learner) I understood I'd be good to go in a day or two.
I saw the same. Perhaps a single game moment where he was overwhelmed by his lack of offensive production and 5 games of banging with some of the biggest athletes on the planet. I was just trying to survive academics and D3 baseball when I was 19.
I was terrified with the way he laid there
And this is probably the sensible answer. I agree. A lot of firsts for the kid. I’m sure it’s a bit overwhelming.
Also, if you are playing for a team where everyone over the last two years seemingly has torn a ligament or tendon of some kind or other there might be a bit more angst when one goes down. And pain and severity of injury also do not always match. Wiseman has barely had time even to figure out what his body feels like when he's actually hurt.
Yeah, good point.
Also, it was just a few days ago that he saw his teammate go down with an ankle injury that turned out to be season-ending. That might’ve spooked him even more.
Yeah, makes sense. Spooked by the ghost of 2020. Glad he’s okay.
NATE P. IN THE HOUSE!!!!
And yes, Nate P!