Just catching up with all the Wiseman comments. I'm not a supporter or a detractor. I just want him to play with Steph, Klay and Dray long enough to confirm one way or the other whether or not he has a future with us. Imagine the pressure knowing that the next mistake is going to have you on the bench for the rest of the night. The G league isn't going to teach him anything. Neither is the second unit. I want to see him in the deep end of the pool and the only reason he sits the rest of the night is because he has accumulated 6 fouls. The guy has been overwhelmed with film and theory for years. He needs live reps against the players he should be playing against for the next decade. All I want to see is him bent over at the waist gasping for air in a timeout. And if ultimately the shoe doesn't fit, move on. No big deal. But I can't say he is a bust or won't progress while his live rep education is coming from the likes of Poole, DDV, TY, Moody, JmG & Kuminga while being Kerr's Yo-Yo. If he's going to play less than 18 minutes, make them matter. He can play a whole year in the second unit and I would still have no clue about him. Put him in the deep end before I go off the deep end. lol
I don't think it's particularly an issue of who he plays with. He doesn't understand the floor, doesn't defend effectively, and gets bullied by opponents despite his size.
>> Whenever Wiseman shares the floor with the reigning Finals MVP,
>>Curry’s net rating drops 32 points, from +12.5 to -19.5.
>> Perhaps more damning, the Dubs are somehow a worse rebounding team with
>>the 7-foot Wiseman on the floor: Ahead of Thursday’s game, the Warriors were
>> giving up offensive rebounds at a rate below the worst offensive rebounding team
I agree he should ask for G League time, as Poole did. In addition to needing to learn to play, though, Wiseman getting bullied also makes me think that he needs to build his lower-body strength. He could build upper-body strength with weights while rehabbing but he had to be careful with that knee.
I'm with you and not with the folks who say only big club minutes will help him and help the team evaluate him. His issues are with fundamentals - using balance and leverage, positioning for and tracking rebounds, playing physically with his lower body, catching passes, setting good screens, rolling decisively, moving his feet on D, staying vertical on contests. Sure, NBA players offer greater difficulty in doing these things right, but my eyeball test says he's pretty far from doing any of them consistently well, and 15 minute burn per game is not going to give him enough reps. Poole is the proof: after his G League stints he was a different player. 20-30 full game G-league runs will work a lot better IMO. The only thing he won't learn there is high-level team D; that's big, but he's gotta learn to walk first.
A lot of their play has been atrocious. Human nature has a pretty high winning percentage, and the last chip let a lot of air out of the balloon. Every been at a kid party and the jumpy starts losing air and all the parents start scrambling to pull their children out before they are swallowed? Kind of feels like the Warriors season so far.
2021-2022 3-man rotations, 2 highest minute totals and +/- per 100 possessions
1. Curry-Wiggs-Loon 1047 min +10.1 per 100
2. Poole-Wiggs-Loon 953 min +8.5 per 100
And the point? The Poole-Wiggs-Loon trio is a tried and true combo. On average, if this is the foundation, the tripod that builds stability in a 5-man rotation, these guys should be able to hold the line in non-Curry minutes. That group still needs a secondary ball handler (formerly DDV), as should be obvious by the amount of minutes Ty Jerome has been getting lately. Add a power forward or stretch 3 and your good to go.
Full disclosure, Poole-Wiggs-Loon is -2.1 per 100 in just over 60 minutes this year. But considering how bad the Dubs have been to start, this minus rating is not bad, coming in as the 11th best 3-man combo this year. So in the worst circumstances, with a bunch of young guys and new guys and returning injured guys who all haven't played together, if you build the second unit with this trio, you are at the bare minimum going to keeps the score even. And this is the primary goal of the second unit.
Also, I don't care who starts or who closes. What matters is 48 minutes and no more "Lord of the Flies" rotations. The 2nd unit has to have some foundation and Poole-Wiggs-Loon are the teenagers in the house, capable of making Mac & Cheese and hot dogs for the kids while the adults are out on date night. But the adults can't shirk all responsibility for taking care of the young ones on Poole (See most 2nd Unit rotations to date). Let Steph, Klay and Dray carry some of the load. That means putting Wiseman in a stroller and taking him out with you on the floor. When he poops his diapers, change them in real time. All parents know, it's a lot of work taking care of babies. Sometimes they stink it up. But then they do something amazing, like say Da-Da, or sky for an offensive rebound and rim shaking put back. Wiseman may need the most care and attention, but he can also provide the greatest joy. In my mind, Dray needs to stuff some baby wipes in that fanny pack of his to help Wise clean up his defense and Steph needs to grab some stuffies for Wiseman, and put them in a place where he can Stuff the Rim.
To the core: Date night is over. Give the teenagers a break. Shoulder YOUR responsibility and take your turn with the big man. And if you do, the 2nd unit won't destroy the house while you are out.
On Ty/Lamb potential signing down the line, dont we have 15 spot open? So we will sign one of them (most likely Ty) a day before Playoffs start ala GP2.
Whether we like it not, Andre isn't getting waived.
OT: Probably this is a minority opinion but I think Andre can be a steadying hand with the puppy lineup (play 10 mins or so). As for his body breaking down, if I remember correctly, Andre's injury progressively moved up his body. Started with knee issues and he had neck pain towards the end - so something fundamental..Rick and Co are probably working to fix that like they did with Dray.
Why not both? Kerrball offense is not built around a single initiator.
You’re also limiting Poole’s talents and potentially stunting his career growth by putting him in exclusively off-ball role. In two years he’ll be as old as Ty Jerome. Do you really want to give up on his development as primary initiator just cos you’re mad that that he turned the ball over too much in a brutal road trip at age 23? Were you calling for him to stop initiating the offense, like, two weeks ago!
Initiation without creation is close to worthless, and Ty Jerome is not an NBA level creator. He's good at utilizing advantages created by others (by shooting and attacking close-outs with floaters), but that doesn't mean he can beat someone off the dribble or in a PNR.
There is a serious lack of play making. IMO, there should always be 2 of (Steph, Poole DDV, Ty, Andre Or Dray). Rollins could be added to that group but we haven't seen enough. If Poole is left in a 2nd unit without one of these guys, he is screwed. This is why I was so big on Trevion. Poole can play the primary point guard role, but like Steph, he needs to be able to move off-ball as well. We have too many heavy minute guys who aren't great ball-handler/passers. (Klay, Moody, Wiggs, Jk, Loon, etc.) So if Poole, or Steph for that matter, get stuck with a rotation full of ball stoppers, it ain't good. It's not so much who initiates the offense, it more that there is more than one player who can do it, where an initial action fails and the ball finds itself in the hands of someone else who can initiate another action. You are definitely right, though. The fact that Ty has played so many minutes shows how important it is.
Hahaha... that's a really good description. I don't know if the stats are available anywhere but I'd like to know the Dubs' PPP when JP takes more than 3 dribbles on a touch vs. 3 or less.
Question for those who (like me) find themselves tempted to start consciously uncoupling from Wiseman (and with apologies to all those who understandably find this premature or unseemly—by all means, ignore!):
What sort of trades do you imagine might be out there? Any recent analogues that might give a clue? Are we in Marvin Bagley territory yet? What would you want, and what seems realistic?
Not sure how realistic but I would like Olynyk, seems realistic enough and he's someone that can pass and space the floor being able to play both PF/C for us. Another is Poeltl as some floated around already but he does not offer floor spacing which I think is important for us to have as opposed to Looney/Draymond
I am confused. Our former big guys like Bogut and Javale seemed tasked with playing almost exclusively around the basket. Defending, stopping slashing players, rebounding , etc. I don’t remember that there were multiple plays designed for them, pick and roll, etc. it seems like GSW is trying to make JW into a different kind of big. For what reason is he not being trained to function like Bogut and others who were needed under the basket and a great help to the team?
Looney also is like Bogut in coming up high to set hard screens and we rely on his passing, although Bogut was decidedly the better passer. Bogut also was bigger and a much better rim protector. Actually, other than not having a jump shot (probably due to that horrible injury he had before we got him), Bogut was better than Looney at every aspect of the game.
I agree on JW's real issue, and I'll add that if JW could rebound and defend and screen as well as vet Javale, he'd be a clear 6th or 7th on the depth chart of the team. Instead, he looks like he should be working on getting at least one of those skills up to par in the G League.
Memory and time makes recollection fuzzy, but I believe this was a lot easier way back then because the league had not fully adjusted to perimeter 3 play at that point. Like it or not, the Dubs are somewhat a victim of their own prolonged success. The entire league has adjusted dramatically to the Dubs' style of play from the personnel (athletic switchable wings) to philosophy (5-out), and specifically defense (perimeter contain, doubling/trapping/hedging vs. Curry), etc.
I don't know if 2016 Curry and 2016 Bogut have such an easy time of it in today's defensive environment.
Bogut would be fine because if he had the ball in hand and they committed to curry he could easily turn and create through passing or have curry run through the double screen leading to multiple options. Bogut was an excellent decision maker and passer from the high post.
My understanding is that floor is typically reserved for their potential floor after development has occurred, disregarding potential career-altering injuries.
Wiseman's 2022 is essentially his rookie season and any performance this year should be much much worse than his potential career floor.
If anyone was saying that about Wiseman's 2022 floor, otoh, you're right, they would be dead wrong.
Kerr not even trusting Wiseman down the stretch in a game where there were basically no other options seems the most damning. And begs the question: why are we even bothering to tank the season to develop him when Looney is already an excellent, young option at 5?
A) I think they're counting on his improving and NOT tanking the season.
B) They are trying to figure out what they have in Wiseman. They may be hoping to increase his trade value, but the longer they hold him, the lower his value is trending. I hope that turns sometime this season.
Is it ok to draft a raw C who is the antithesis of what your coach likes to utilize in a C with the #2 pick when you have the best player/s that your team might ever have?
The decision should be lambasted constantly.
Wiseman should be traded to a team that wants Wembi where he can learn to be himself. I still think he might actually be a really raw SF and not a C but they’ve gone for weight and strength instead of agility he’s never going to fit Kerrball where all bbiq players flourish.
This. Bigs are supposed to take a long time to develop. The reason Wiseman's been a problem is less to do with him, and more to do with the (clearly deliberate) strategy to only keep one starting center and Draymond for the center rotation, and then fill in around that.
On a rebuilding team, he'd be bad along with everybody else, and it wouldn't stick out so much.
If he was on another good team, they'd probably have a true backup center, and he would just be getting spot minutes until he was ready (a few years down the road).
The common knowledge of bigs taking more time to develop only makes drafting one in the middle of thr Steph era even more egregious. Especially when Looney was already developed and able to handle that role
You have to remember the situation when we drafted JW. There were three players who almost everybody agreed were the top choices. Anthony Edwards went #1 to the Wolves. That left Melo Ball and JW. At the time many thought Ball's shot was broken, and he hadn't blown people away playing in Australia. Besides we had Steph, and Klay wasn't re-injured until within days of the draft. (We had Poole but he was struggling.) Maybe we could have used another guard but we didn't have anyone on the team taller than 6'9". Looney had a history of injuries, and the previous season at one point we had no healthy player bigger than 6'7". We were relying on Paschall. So it made sense to take a chance on Wiseman, who showed (and sometimes still shows) huge potential.
Haliburton was the fan choice. He’d be fine on this roster. FA c’s are easy to come by when you don’t have a highly drafted youngster there to eat the c minutes.
It didn't make sense to draft Wiseman at the time and the reasons why have been made clear since imo.
> There were three players who almost everybody agreed were the top choices.
There were four players who almost everybody agreed were the top choices in the 2021 draft, but then Masai Ujiri said fuck those choices and took Scottie Barnes over Jalen Suggs.
The other thing is that COVID protocols were in place and they couldn't even work anyone out. All they had for Wiseman was film of his 3? games at Memphis and zoom meetings.
I was much more inclined to nab Haliburton, personally. Fair point on Loon's health, but given that the Steph + smallball Dray lineups have always been the crux of our success, it still seems baffling to push all the chips in on a traditional big that will take forever to develop not only due to the nature of the position, but amplified by Wiseman's complete lack of any experience
If all we wanted was a big who can fill in for 20 minutes or so during the reg season, it's not hard to find another Zaza or JaVale (who already know how to play basketball) in free agency
I think that's a bit of hindsight talking. Loon is great, but he was injured when the Ws drafted him and was looked at early as someone who might always be on a minutes restriction. He was a contributor by the time they took Wise, but no one saw him becoming the iron man who played in every game last season.
That said, now the Ws /do/ know, and I think it's going to put pressure on the team to either develop Wiseman or move him. No matter how ageless Curry looks, time is undefeated. Gotta do what they can to take advantage of his prodigious talent while they have it.
Kyrie is so poor at understanding the bigger issues that I am a bit reluctant to even bother, but let's just note his scripted apology: "To All Jewish families and Communities that are hurt and affected from my post, I am deeply sorry to have caused you pain and I apologize."
This is one of those things people say (or their PR guy scripts) that seems good at first; but the issue here is not about Jewish families only. It's about bigotry and ignorance. By singling out Jewish families, the implication is that if Jewish families and communities had not been hurt, his post would have been fine. Non-Jewish people would have been just fine, they don't care. That's so myopic and foolish, and ultimately recreates the same problem. It singles out a group and paints them all in the same way. Effectively he's saying "Jewish people are a certain way about bigotry and other people aren't as, you know ... touchy."
The language of the statement is all about the others -- how Jewish people are. There's nothing about how he is. The proverbial I-statement vs. You-statement problem. As in, if he had said, "I really shouldn't have posted that, I don't actually know what it's about," that would be cool.
So hi, Kyrie. I'm Jewish. I wasn't hurt, I thought you were being a douche. I would think the same if your comments had offended against any other group. The "apology?" Thanks, I hated it.
This is spot on. Up until this latest incident, I figured Kyrie was merely a damn fool who was self-centered, irresponsible, and arrogant. If anyone was hurt by his behavior and statements before his endorsement of antisemitic propaganda, it was his team and teammates, and that's between them. Now I think Kyrie is a skunk that need to be de-scented. That so-called "apology" was very obviously written by a PR flak and not meaningful. Apology not accepted. As for the Nets, unfortunately they can't go 0-82 but we will settle for 3-79.
I also hate it when the offender acts like the issue is hurt feelings. There's no acknowledgment that his sharing his 'opinion' and misinformation contributes to an atmosphere in which Jewish people can be discriminated against and even physically harmed.
An acknowledgment expressing regret or asking pardon for a fault or offense.
A formal justification or defense.
An explanation or excuse.”
An apology can take many forms and was probably the wrong format to impose on him.
“ Definition of self-revelation
: revelation of one's own thoughts, feelings, and attitudes especially without deliberate intent.”
He needed to speak to who he is and own his ignorance and all that he did using his platform, whether intentional or not.
Bottom line, he got himself a lot of press, so the harm is already done and continues on social media, whether he made his little apology or not.
My in-laws escaped from the Warsaw ghetto to Russia and finally ended up in the United States. They would find all this deeply hurtful, despite the apology. They would also realize that this deeply stupid man is allowed to say things to a large audience just because he’s very good at playing with a little ball.
Wasn't it the #1 book and film on Amazon for the entire week?
Possibly the worst part of Kyrie doing what he did is that he has absolutely no clue about the massive, self-perpetuating damage his little post will continue to have going forward.
The guy is caught up in conspiratorial nonsense and thinks he's "shining a light" when he's just producing violence.
Last night was the perfect opportunity to let wiseman spot up and see if he can hit corner 3s and also see how the switch everything scheme works with him, I seriously don’t get why this play style is being forced onto wiseman, how long until it kills his confidence?
He obviously wants to play like a wing, I’m sick of him sitting in the post trying to call for the ball
Brook Lopez played as a high post passing hub in college, an offensive minded traditional center main guy on the nets, and now a stretch 5 that can bang inside, rebound and occasionally protect the rim. Add running the floor and you’d have one absolutely incredible basketball player. So yeah that would be really cool.
After watching this game I feel it was mistake to have not sat the same guys back in DET. This speaks to how disastrous a road trip this was. I’m curious to see if Steph’s minutes are more staggered for a block of games going forward. I would also love to see JK get guaranteed minutes like Wiseman has and was afforded. Please develop JK
Yeah losing the first game of both back-to-backs was poor management, at least in hindsight. They should have gone all-in for those two games (i.e. by playing Wiseman minimal minutes in those) and then give the young players more time in the two back-end games.
We could have easily gone 3-3 instead of 0-6 if a few things had broken our way and the back-to-backs were better managed. Unfortunate.
Obviously, this is a freezing cold take, but I was very encouraged by last night's game.
I had hoped to see some glimpses of what might work after 10 games. Well, it took until game 10 to see anything!, but there were some great takeaways.
1. Kuminga needs to play.
2. Jerome and Lamb are a really nice one-two combo, particularly since both can shoot.
3. I'm coming around to the idea of Wiseman going to the G-league for a while. Maybe they can at least get his defensive positioning and technique sorted out.
4. JMG needs his minutes reduced until he can show some improvement. He's not scoring enough to make up for his defensive lapses.
I'm not really sure what to do about center if Wiseman does go to the G-league. Might have to play Lamb and Kuminga in a small-ball lineup until Wiseman is more solid.
5. We need to start thinking about how to get both Lamb and Jerome on the main roster. They are Warriors players.
1st 7 minutes: Steph, Klay, Wiggs, Dray, Loon
Next 3 min: Steph, Klay, Poole, Wiggs, Loon
Next 5 Min: Poole, DDV, Moody, Dray, Kuminga
Next 2 min: DDV, Moody, Wiggs, Dray, Kuminga
Next 5 min: Curry, Klay, Wiggs, Kuminga, Loon
Last 2 min: Curry, Klay, Poole, Kuminga, Dray
While ddv is hurt play Ty. Hope the 4th is garbage time in our favor 50% of the time.
Steph Curry, Wiggs, Klay~ 34
Dray~32
Loon~30
Kuminga~28
Poole~20
Moody, DDV/Ty ~14
10 player rotation that might work until Poole gets his groove back.
Just catching up with all the Wiseman comments. I'm not a supporter or a detractor. I just want him to play with Steph, Klay and Dray long enough to confirm one way or the other whether or not he has a future with us. Imagine the pressure knowing that the next mistake is going to have you on the bench for the rest of the night. The G league isn't going to teach him anything. Neither is the second unit. I want to see him in the deep end of the pool and the only reason he sits the rest of the night is because he has accumulated 6 fouls. The guy has been overwhelmed with film and theory for years. He needs live reps against the players he should be playing against for the next decade. All I want to see is him bent over at the waist gasping for air in a timeout. And if ultimately the shoe doesn't fit, move on. No big deal. But I can't say he is a bust or won't progress while his live rep education is coming from the likes of Poole, DDV, TY, Moody, JmG & Kuminga while being Kerr's Yo-Yo. If he's going to play less than 18 minutes, make them matter. He can play a whole year in the second unit and I would still have no clue about him. Put him in the deep end before I go off the deep end. lol
If he is so limited that he can only learn with hall of famers he’s already a lost cause.
I don't think it's particularly an issue of who he plays with. He doesn't understand the floor, doesn't defend effectively, and gets bullied by opponents despite his size.
>> Whenever Wiseman shares the floor with the reigning Finals MVP,
>>Curry’s net rating drops 32 points, from +12.5 to -19.5.
>> Perhaps more damning, the Dubs are somehow a worse rebounding team with
>>the 7-foot Wiseman on the floor: Ahead of Thursday’s game, the Warriors were
>> giving up offensive rebounds at a rate below the worst offensive rebounding team
>>in the league with Wiseman on the court.
https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/warriors-james-wiseman-problem-17559316.php
I really hope he turns it around, and I'm also becoming convinced that the G League would be his best chance. He should ASK to be assigned.
I agree he should ask for G League time, as Poole did. In addition to needing to learn to play, though, Wiseman getting bullied also makes me think that he needs to build his lower-body strength. He could build upper-body strength with weights while rehabbing but he had to be careful with that knee.
I'm with you and not with the folks who say only big club minutes will help him and help the team evaluate him. His issues are with fundamentals - using balance and leverage, positioning for and tracking rebounds, playing physically with his lower body, catching passes, setting good screens, rolling decisively, moving his feet on D, staying vertical on contests. Sure, NBA players offer greater difficulty in doing these things right, but my eyeball test says he's pretty far from doing any of them consistently well, and 15 minute burn per game is not going to give him enough reps. Poole is the proof: after his G League stints he was a different player. 20-30 full game G-league runs will work a lot better IMO. The only thing he won't learn there is high-level team D; that's big, but he's gotta learn to walk first.
Here's how the Warriors team stats look like based on 10 games:
Offense:
3 in points scored!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (117.4)
25 in points in paint (44.8)
24 in fastbreak points (12.1)
17 in offensive efficiency
9 in shooting % !!!! (47.3%)
17 in three point % (35.9%)
4 in two point % !!!!!!!!!!!!!! (56.8%)
21 in off. rebound % (22.3%)
23 in def. rebound % (73.5%)
9 in total rebound % !!! (50.9%)
2 in opponent blocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (3.3)
26 in opponent steals (8.8)
3 in assists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (28.6)
30 in turnovers (16.9)
Defense:
30 in points allowed (121.4)
16 in opponent points in paint (49.0)
18 in opponent fastbreak points (14.8)
28 in defensive efficiency
25 in opponent shooting % (47.6%)
18 in opponent three point % (35.9%)
24 in opponent two point % (55.4%)
25 in blocks (4.0)
13 in steals (7.5)
26 in opponent assists (27.2)
7 in opponent turnovers!!!!!!!! (16.0)
A lot of their play has been atrocious. Human nature has a pretty high winning percentage, and the last chip let a lot of air out of the balloon. Every been at a kid party and the jumpy starts losing air and all the parents start scrambling to pull their children out before they are swallowed? Kind of feels like the Warriors season so far.
2021-2022 3-man rotations, 2 highest minute totals and +/- per 100 possessions
1. Curry-Wiggs-Loon 1047 min +10.1 per 100
2. Poole-Wiggs-Loon 953 min +8.5 per 100
And the point? The Poole-Wiggs-Loon trio is a tried and true combo. On average, if this is the foundation, the tripod that builds stability in a 5-man rotation, these guys should be able to hold the line in non-Curry minutes. That group still needs a secondary ball handler (formerly DDV), as should be obvious by the amount of minutes Ty Jerome has been getting lately. Add a power forward or stretch 3 and your good to go.
Full disclosure, Poole-Wiggs-Loon is -2.1 per 100 in just over 60 minutes this year. But considering how bad the Dubs have been to start, this minus rating is not bad, coming in as the 11th best 3-man combo this year. So in the worst circumstances, with a bunch of young guys and new guys and returning injured guys who all haven't played together, if you build the second unit with this trio, you are at the bare minimum going to keeps the score even. And this is the primary goal of the second unit.
Also, I don't care who starts or who closes. What matters is 48 minutes and no more "Lord of the Flies" rotations. The 2nd unit has to have some foundation and Poole-Wiggs-Loon are the teenagers in the house, capable of making Mac & Cheese and hot dogs for the kids while the adults are out on date night. But the adults can't shirk all responsibility for taking care of the young ones on Poole (See most 2nd Unit rotations to date). Let Steph, Klay and Dray carry some of the load. That means putting Wiseman in a stroller and taking him out with you on the floor. When he poops his diapers, change them in real time. All parents know, it's a lot of work taking care of babies. Sometimes they stink it up. But then they do something amazing, like say Da-Da, or sky for an offensive rebound and rim shaking put back. Wiseman may need the most care and attention, but he can also provide the greatest joy. In my mind, Dray needs to stuff some baby wipes in that fanny pack of his to help Wise clean up his defense and Steph needs to grab some stuffies for Wiseman, and put them in a place where he can Stuff the Rim.
To the core: Date night is over. Give the teenagers a break. Shoulder YOUR responsibility and take your turn with the big man. And if you do, the 2nd unit won't destroy the house while you are out.
On Ty/Lamb potential signing down the line, dont we have 15 spot open? So we will sign one of them (most likely Ty) a day before Playoffs start ala GP2.
Whether we like it not, Andre isn't getting waived.
OT: Probably this is a minority opinion but I think Andre can be a steadying hand with the puppy lineup (play 10 mins or so). As for his body breaking down, if I remember correctly, Andre's injury progressively moved up his body. Started with knee issues and he had neck pain towards the end - so something fundamental..Rick and Co are probably working to fix that like they did with Dray.
So that means Andre's next injury will be...a splitting headache?
Watching the second team lately probably already gave Dre a splitting headache.
😃.
The real question is what comes after that, since anatomically it doesn't go up any further?
Crown chakra.
Opinion: Jerome (and maybe DDV) should be the one to initiate the offense instead of Poole.
Why not both? Kerrball offense is not built around a single initiator.
You’re also limiting Poole’s talents and potentially stunting his career growth by putting him in exclusively off-ball role. In two years he’ll be as old as Ty Jerome. Do you really want to give up on his development as primary initiator just cos you’re mad that that he turned the ball over too much in a brutal road trip at age 23? Were you calling for him to stop initiating the offense, like, two weeks ago!
Initiation without creation is close to worthless, and Ty Jerome is not an NBA level creator. He's good at utilizing advantages created by others (by shooting and attacking close-outs with floaters), but that doesn't mean he can beat someone off the dribble or in a PNR.
There is a serious lack of play making. IMO, there should always be 2 of (Steph, Poole DDV, Ty, Andre Or Dray). Rollins could be added to that group but we haven't seen enough. If Poole is left in a 2nd unit without one of these guys, he is screwed. This is why I was so big on Trevion. Poole can play the primary point guard role, but like Steph, he needs to be able to move off-ball as well. We have too many heavy minute guys who aren't great ball-handler/passers. (Klay, Moody, Wiggs, Jk, Loon, etc.) So if Poole, or Steph for that matter, get stuck with a rotation full of ball stoppers, it ain't good. It's not so much who initiates the offense, it more that there is more than one player who can do it, where an initial action fails and the ball finds itself in the hands of someone else who can initiate another action. You are definitely right, though. The fact that Ty has played so many minutes shows how important it is.
Probably the biggest reason they went from guys like Nico and Chiozza as backup 1s, to guys like DDV, Ty Jerome, and even Ryan Rollins.
They want handlers that can play next to Poole in the backcourt.
I think he is fine as 1 but he needs to cut out early in the clock 10 sec drunken mastery.
> early in the clock 10 sec drunken mastery
Hahaha... that's a really good description. I don't know if the stats are available anywhere but I'd like to know the Dubs' PPP when JP takes more than 3 dribbles on a touch vs. 3 or less.
That's probably a big reason why those two guys were signed to begin with.
I've always looked at him as more a 2 anyway.
Question for those who (like me) find themselves tempted to start consciously uncoupling from Wiseman (and with apologies to all those who understandably find this premature or unseemly—by all means, ignore!):
What sort of trades do you imagine might be out there? Any recent analogues that might give a clue? Are we in Marvin Bagley territory yet? What would you want, and what seems realistic?
Not sure how realistic but I would like Olynyk, seems realistic enough and he's someone that can pass and space the floor being able to play both PF/C for us. Another is Poeltl as some floated around already but he does not offer floor spacing which I think is important for us to have as opposed to Looney/Draymond
I like those. Poeltl is appealing to me as a sort of lesser Andrew Bogut. I'd been thinking about him, too. But good luck selling Lacob on that!
I am confused. Our former big guys like Bogut and Javale seemed tasked with playing almost exclusively around the basket. Defending, stopping slashing players, rebounding , etc. I don’t remember that there were multiple plays designed for them, pick and roll, etc. it seems like GSW is trying to make JW into a different kind of big. For what reason is he not being trained to function like Bogut and others who were needed under the basket and a great help to the team?
Looney plays like bogut with the handoffs and rim protection without jumping
Looney also is like Bogut in coming up high to set hard screens and we rely on his passing, although Bogut was decidedly the better passer. Bogut also was bigger and a much better rim protector. Actually, other than not having a jump shot (probably due to that horrible injury he had before we got him), Bogut was better than Looney at every aspect of the game.
Bogut, and Zaza were elite strategic centers. Big and high bball IQ - and even javale (to a lesser extent)
I would throw David West in there, too.
I think this is spot on. Because JW seems like a decent shooter, maybe the idea is let's use him differently, which messes with The GSW Way (TM).
But the real issue for JW is defense and there he's way too close to Javale and way far away from Bogut. Way far away yonder far far away
I agree on JW's real issue, and I'll add that if JW could rebound and defend and screen as well as vet Javale, he'd be a clear 6th or 7th on the depth chart of the team. Instead, he looks like he should be working on getting at least one of those skills up to par in the G League.
Maybe even #LightYears away
More importantly they knew how to set screens. I remember when all it took was a bogut screen to get curry a wide open three off the dribble
Memory and time makes recollection fuzzy, but I believe this was a lot easier way back then because the league had not fully adjusted to perimeter 3 play at that point. Like it or not, the Dubs are somewhat a victim of their own prolonged success. The entire league has adjusted dramatically to the Dubs' style of play from the personnel (athletic switchable wings) to philosophy (5-out), and specifically defense (perimeter contain, doubling/trapping/hedging vs. Curry), etc.
I don't know if 2016 Curry and 2016 Bogut have such an easy time of it in today's defensive environment.
Bogut would be fine because if he had the ball in hand and they committed to curry he could easily turn and create through passing or have curry run through the double screen leading to multiple options. Bogut was an excellent decision maker and passer from the high post.
Thnx. Now I am less confused.
That's surely true. I think funleavyfotofun93 was just reminiscing, not prescribing. Those /were/ the days.
This is why it never rang true when people casually said Wiseman's floor was a better offensive player than Looney.
Wiseman can shoot, isnt that a good thing?
Does it matter when they never run plays that utilize it?
My understanding is that floor is typically reserved for their potential floor after development has occurred, disregarding potential career-altering injuries.
Wiseman's 2022 is essentially his rookie season and any performance this year should be much much worse than his potential career floor.
If anyone was saying that about Wiseman's 2022 floor, otoh, you're right, they would be dead wrong.
I actually liked this experiment I just wish it happened last back to back and I would have really liked to have seen Curry out there with the kids.
I’d like to see dray out there with the kids, he’a the player coach isnt he?
Just a reminder that DDV is Ty Jerome with more experience and much better defense.
They’re really missing him and I think what a big part of their plans he was is being overlooked.
I am thinking the same
I think Jerome looks a lot steadier as a decision maker than DDV
Ty Jerome probably has the best handle in terms of ball security on the team.
109 minutes played and 2 TOVs.
Kerr not even trusting Wiseman down the stretch in a game where there were basically no other options seems the most damning. And begs the question: why are we even bothering to tank the season to develop him when Looney is already an excellent, young option at 5?
A) I think they're counting on his improving and NOT tanking the season.
B) They are trying to figure out what they have in Wiseman. They may be hoping to increase his trade value, but the longer they hold him, the lower his value is trending. I hope that turns sometime this season.
On the one hand, it’s tempting to agree.
On the other, he is basically still in his rookie season and fan disappointment has been steadily and rudely overlooking that.
Is it ok to draft a raw C who is the antithesis of what your coach likes to utilize in a C with the #2 pick when you have the best player/s that your team might ever have?
The decision should be lambasted constantly.
Wiseman should be traded to a team that wants Wembi where he can learn to be himself. I still think he might actually be a really raw SF and not a C but they’ve gone for weight and strength instead of agility he’s never going to fit Kerrball where all bbiq players flourish.
Yes. I find it crazy how quickly people are “ready to move on”…
This. Bigs are supposed to take a long time to develop. The reason Wiseman's been a problem is less to do with him, and more to do with the (clearly deliberate) strategy to only keep one starting center and Draymond for the center rotation, and then fill in around that.
On a rebuilding team, he'd be bad along with everybody else, and it wouldn't stick out so much.
If he was on another good team, they'd probably have a true backup center, and he would just be getting spot minutes until he was ready (a few years down the road).
Banchero is being lauded for being what Wiseman would be naturally too.
The common knowledge of bigs taking more time to develop only makes drafting one in the middle of thr Steph era even more egregious. Especially when Looney was already developed and able to handle that role
You have to remember the situation when we drafted JW. There were three players who almost everybody agreed were the top choices. Anthony Edwards went #1 to the Wolves. That left Melo Ball and JW. At the time many thought Ball's shot was broken, and he hadn't blown people away playing in Australia. Besides we had Steph, and Klay wasn't re-injured until within days of the draft. (We had Poole but he was struggling.) Maybe we could have used another guard but we didn't have anyone on the team taller than 6'9". Looney had a history of injuries, and the previous season at one point we had no healthy player bigger than 6'7". We were relying on Paschall. So it made sense to take a chance on Wiseman, who showed (and sometimes still shows) huge potential.
Haliburton was the fan choice. He’d be fine on this roster. FA c’s are easy to come by when you don’t have a highly drafted youngster there to eat the c minutes.
It didn't make sense to draft Wiseman at the time and the reasons why have been made clear since imo.
> There were three players who almost everybody agreed were the top choices.
There were four players who almost everybody agreed were the top choices in the 2021 draft, but then Masai Ujiri said fuck those choices and took Scottie Barnes over Jalen Suggs.
The other thing is that COVID protocols were in place and they couldn't even work anyone out. All they had for Wiseman was film of his 3? games at Memphis and zoom meetings.
I was much more inclined to nab Haliburton, personally. Fair point on Loon's health, but given that the Steph + smallball Dray lineups have always been the crux of our success, it still seems baffling to push all the chips in on a traditional big that will take forever to develop not only due to the nature of the position, but amplified by Wiseman's complete lack of any experience
If all we wanted was a big who can fill in for 20 minutes or so during the reg season, it's not hard to find another Zaza or JaVale (who already know how to play basketball) in free agency
IIRC Klay had reinsured himself on the day of the draft.
I think that's a bit of hindsight talking. Loon is great, but he was injured when the Ws drafted him and was looked at early as someone who might always be on a minutes restriction. He was a contributor by the time they took Wise, but no one saw him becoming the iron man who played in every game last season.
That said, now the Ws /do/ know, and I think it's going to put pressure on the team to either develop Wiseman or move him. No matter how ageless Curry looks, time is undefeated. Gotta do what they can to take advantage of his prodigious talent while they have it.
💜
Kyrie is so poor at understanding the bigger issues that I am a bit reluctant to even bother, but let's just note his scripted apology: "To All Jewish families and Communities that are hurt and affected from my post, I am deeply sorry to have caused you pain and I apologize."
This is one of those things people say (or their PR guy scripts) that seems good at first; but the issue here is not about Jewish families only. It's about bigotry and ignorance. By singling out Jewish families, the implication is that if Jewish families and communities had not been hurt, his post would have been fine. Non-Jewish people would have been just fine, they don't care. That's so myopic and foolish, and ultimately recreates the same problem. It singles out a group and paints them all in the same way. Effectively he's saying "Jewish people are a certain way about bigotry and other people aren't as, you know ... touchy."
The language of the statement is all about the others -- how Jewish people are. There's nothing about how he is. The proverbial I-statement vs. You-statement problem. As in, if he had said, "I really shouldn't have posted that, I don't actually know what it's about," that would be cool.
So hi, Kyrie. I'm Jewish. I wasn't hurt, I thought you were being a douche. I would think the same if your comments had offended against any other group. The "apology?" Thanks, I hated it.
This is spot on. Up until this latest incident, I figured Kyrie was merely a damn fool who was self-centered, irresponsible, and arrogant. If anyone was hurt by his behavior and statements before his endorsement of antisemitic propaganda, it was his team and teammates, and that's between them. Now I think Kyrie is a skunk that need to be de-scented. That so-called "apology" was very obviously written by a PR flak and not meaningful. Apology not accepted. As for the Nets, unfortunately they can't go 0-82 but we will settle for 3-79.
Thanks for sharing.
I also hate it when the offender acts like the issue is hurt feelings. There's no acknowledgment that his sharing his 'opinion' and misinformation contributes to an atmosphere in which Jewish people can be discriminated against and even physically harmed.
Definition of “Apology:
An acknowledgment expressing regret or asking pardon for a fault or offense.
A formal justification or defense.
An explanation or excuse.”
An apology can take many forms and was probably the wrong format to impose on him.
“ Definition of self-revelation
: revelation of one's own thoughts, feelings, and attitudes especially without deliberate intent.”
He needed to speak to who he is and own his ignorance and all that he did using his platform, whether intentional or not.
Bottom line, he got himself a lot of press, so the harm is already done and continues on social media, whether he made his little apology or not.
My in-laws escaped from the Warsaw ghetto to Russia and finally ended up in the United States. They would find all this deeply hurtful, despite the apology. They would also realize that this deeply stupid man is allowed to say things to a large audience just because he’s very good at playing with a little ball.
And your last sentence is the truth. What’s upsetting is that Kyrie doesn’t realize it or won’t accept or just doesn’t get it.
Wasn't it the #1 book and film on Amazon for the entire week?
Possibly the worst part of Kyrie doing what he did is that he has absolutely no clue about the massive, self-perpetuating damage his little post will continue to have going forward.
The guy is caught up in conspiratorial nonsense and thinks he's "shining a light" when he's just producing violence.
Last night was the perfect opportunity to let wiseman spot up and see if he can hit corner 3s and also see how the switch everything scheme works with him, I seriously don’t get why this play style is being forced onto wiseman, how long until it kills his confidence?
He obviously wants to play like a wing, I’m sick of him sitting in the post trying to call for the ball
I’d much rather him be brook lopez then deandre ayton
Brook Lopez played as a high post passing hub in college, an offensive minded traditional center main guy on the nets, and now a stretch 5 that can bang inside, rebound and occasionally protect the rim. Add running the floor and you’d have one absolutely incredible basketball player. So yeah that would be really cool.
Play curry with looney
Play poole green and kuminga together, poole is better with green, green is better with a lob threat on the short rolls, just makes perfect sense.
If jmg doesn’t step up let lamb get his minutes with the starters
Curry jerome Wiggins jmg/lamb looney
Poole moody klay kuminga green let kuminga guard ball and klay guard 4s
I don't think Kerr will ever break up the Curry/Draymond duo, nor should he.
After watching this game I feel it was mistake to have not sat the same guys back in DET. This speaks to how disastrous a road trip this was. I’m curious to see if Steph’s minutes are more staggered for a block of games going forward. I would also love to see JK get guaranteed minutes like Wiseman has and was afforded. Please develop JK
Yeah losing the first game of both back-to-backs was poor management, at least in hindsight. They should have gone all-in for those two games (i.e. by playing Wiseman minimal minutes in those) and then give the young players more time in the two back-end games.
We could have easily gone 3-3 instead of 0-6 if a few things had broken our way and the back-to-backs were better managed. Unfortunate.
Obviously, this is a freezing cold take, but I was very encouraged by last night's game.
I had hoped to see some glimpses of what might work after 10 games. Well, it took until game 10 to see anything!, but there were some great takeaways.
1. Kuminga needs to play.
2. Jerome and Lamb are a really nice one-two combo, particularly since both can shoot.
3. I'm coming around to the idea of Wiseman going to the G-league for a while. Maybe they can at least get his defensive positioning and technique sorted out.
4. JMG needs his minutes reduced until he can show some improvement. He's not scoring enough to make up for his defensive lapses.
I'm not really sure what to do about center if Wiseman does go to the G-league. Might have to play Lamb and Kuminga in a small-ball lineup until Wiseman is more solid.
5. We need to start thinking about how to get both Lamb and Jerome on the main roster. They are Warriors players.