If the Warriors release rights on Klay (and get rid of his cap hold), and release Looney, and guarantee CP3's contract, they're at 11 players and $169M committed, well under the trade restricting aprons. They could package CP3's $30M and another player (GP2?) for a $30-40M player. Then you've got:
Starters:
Steph, New guy, Dray, [Wiggins or JK], TJD
Bench:
[Wiggins or JK], Moody, Podz, [probably Looney], and Gui, TPMLE, 3x vet min.
It needs growth from the youngsters, and a relative return to "Good Wiggins", but that's a solid roster...
I'd probably rather get Klay back on a cheaper deal, let CP3 walk, and either keep GP2 or trade him... but if we know we're losing Klay, keeping CP3 is a viable path to improving the roster without blowing the bank.
There's nothing crazy about that plan. If you can keep the young guys and add a top 40 player closer to his prime it's really that middle strategy that fits the bill.
It's just the open question of who the $30-40M player is? Can they get that player without giving up Kuminga, Moody, Podz?
You could probably go get Jerami Grant and give up very little.
There's some smaller guards that are gettable: Dejounte Murray, Anfernee Simons, but the fit is questionable
I think Brandon Ingram would make a lot of sense, but rumors are they are not interested
You want to take a crack at rehabbing Deandre Ayton?
The best fits out there would be Markkanen or Mikal Bridges. The first problem with both of those two is that neither of those teams has shown any inclination to sell. Now, I think both of those teams CLEARLY should. They are thoroughly mediocre squads with elite complimentary players in their prime. They should do what the Spurs did with Dejounte Murray. Max out value on those guys, get sub-mediocre and put yourself in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes. The 2nd problem is those guys fit for everyone and that if they did hit the market lots of teams would be interested in overpaying to get them.
But if you could trade for Mikal Bridges just using picks and contracts he'd be such a perfect fit. Slot him in as a replacement at SG for Klay and you have a really interesting lineup.
I'm not sure. I would not be interested in that deal. It's a good roster, but I don't think we can expect Steph at age 36 to have that type of offensive responsibility to carry the team to a championship. There's no historical comparison that you could make for that. Bridges is a really good player, but not that type of secondary creator in my mind.
I think a realistic title chance at this point comes with betting on the growth and upside of Kuminga or Moody and more likely Kuminga. It might even take another year or two.
So if it were Moody, contracts/Wiggins, plus a couple first round picks and a pick swap, I could definitely be talked into that.
I think the timing makes it tricky though. CP3's contract needs to be guaranteed before the date when Klay can even start negotiating with other teams. Until that starts, it seems pretty impossible to know whether he is staying or leaving (unless he just flat out says he won't return at any price, which is unlikely).
As mentioned in the podcast, CP3s date could be pushed back with mutual agreement, but it may not make sense for CP3 to agree.
In terms of players to trade for, there are probably only a couple that fit the bill of player in that range where the team is willing to get worse just for a couple picks. Maybe a couple potential possibilities like Lavine or Jerami Grant, but it's not a huge list, and there may be better offers out there for anyone suitable.
> I think the timing makes it tricky though. CP3's contract needs to be guaranteed before the date when Klay can even start negotiating with other teams.
I'd argue that tampering is already happening. Teams just have to be less blatant about it than the teams that got punished last year. If Klay has high confidence in getting an offer above what the Warriors are willing to pay, the Warriors focus on figuring out what to do with CP3's contract. If there's value to the Warriors in deferring the decision on CP3, they can negotiate a guarantee date deferral.
It's absolutely not a huge list, but it just takes one decent fit... I'd really hate for it to be Zack LaVine tho, yuck... but I'd probably have said that about Andrew Wiggins before we acquired him too, so if they do go for LaVine, I'd trust they think he'll do well here... and if he tries on defense, doesn't get injured, and gets some shine from playing with Steph, it could turn out really well.
liked because this matches my thoughts on LaVine: I have doubts/concerns, but Kevin Durant is not walking through that door, and so if the team decides to bet on LaVine I will talk myself into it
Yeah, lotta overlap. Which is why it only makes sense to acquire LaVine if Klay's gone. But at the same time, LaVine has only had 37% of his FGM assisted, and 61% of his 3PM... he is much more of a "second creator" than Klay.
yeah, releasing Klay and guaranteeing CP3's contract is one of two ways to get salary ballast to trade for a big star (the other is to trade Wiggs, of course).
On the other hand, what team is going to want CP3 at $30 mil/GP2 at $10? Those are negative contracts. You'd have to throw a lot else in (Kuminga, and picks, certainly) to get a 1a/2 type of player.
And, you're probably not going to get a piece that puts you over the top for that. Klay/CP3/GP2/Kuminga is a lot of minutes to fill, and one player won't do it. So, you're looking at a TPMLE to fill in any gaps.
My problem with all these trades is that an upgrade for one player doesn't make us a contender. You come back to hoping from growth from your existing team, with one player augmenting things some.
But, is that worth trading the farm for? To be a contender, you still need very good health from Dray and Steph. Plus you need two of Moody/Kuminga/TJD/Podz (whoever is still around after the trade) to basically hit it out of the park. Might as well just stick with what you have and hope for that. At least you'll have assets to do any tweaking if it does happen.
I was figuring you'd add picks. You are getting a "disgruntled" or underperforming player for a "CP3+GP2+picks" package, and not a superstar... which has worked out for us previously.
So I've read a few ideas here and come up with a super aggressive offseason with some of these ideas that have been floating around. Some of them will be super unpopular, so let's get them out of the way first:
Jonathan Kuminga for Alex Caruso: We know the Dubs were interested at the deadline and while it's a raw skills downgrade, it's a huge BBIQ upgrade. It does mean that the Dubs are getting even smaller, so other moves will have to fill the size gap later.
Klay S&T for Jarrett Allen: The Dubs finally get a center who can block a shot and consistently post positive +/- numbers. Klay still can be a positive in this league, but I don't think it can be for the Dubs. There's too much history here.
Wiggs plus removing all but 1-3 protection on the FRP for Kuzma: It's not a fun trade, but it's pretty much the only way to trade the anchor that is Wiggins. Kuzma is more at ease scoring on broken plays and can guard 3/4 more readily than Wiggs who is more 2/3. It also allows the Dubs to trade a pick and still leave their full arsenal. While I'd love to target a Mikal Bridges instead, the value difference is just too great.
Sign Tobias Harris to NTPMLE. Harris consistently is a positive +/- and helps fill the 3/4 gap as well. It also pushes Kuzma to 6th man where he was when the Lakers won the title. If Harris doesn't sign for that little, sign DeAnthony Melton for that spot.
Sign Batum to a vet min. He was a target multiple times for the Dubs. Do they finally get their man?
Cut Looney and bring him back for vet min. Every dollar matters for getting a full NTPMLE.
The roster finally looks like:
Steph/Podz
Caruso/Moody/GP II
Harris/Kuzma
Draymond/Batum
Allen/TJD/Looney
It's not a young team, nor an especially athletic team. It likely has some spacing issues, and it's missing guys who can score 1:1 a ton. But what is chock full of is players who have super high BBIQ and consistently post out of this world +/- numbers. And at this point, that's all I can ask for.
Tempting TBH, but Klay either stays or walks. I highly doubt we deal him in a S&T
>Wiggs plus removing all but 1-3 protection on the FRP for Kuzma
I can get behind this one.
>Sign Tobias Harris to NTPMLE.
>Sign Batum to a vet min.
Huge pass. If we give Wiggs crap for disappearing at times I have a feeling we're going to LOATHE Harris. I'm still down for Batum though. I think he can still be a great fit with us.
Thank you for sharing this, though. Always love seeing other members taking their time on these posts. Makes fun a fun offseason discussion.
> I can get behind this one (Wiggs plus removing all but 1-3 protection on the FRP for Kuzma)
That’s the only one I’m down with as well. And even there, I don’t love it, and wouldn’t want to throw in any valuable draft capital to grease the wheels. Maybe kick in the #11-20 portion of the 2030 pick? I don’t think the margin between Wiggs and Kuzma (such at it is) is worth much more than that.
Kuminga for Caruso is just … blecchhhh to me. I don’t care how high Alex’s hoops IQ is: dude is 6’-5” with short arms (i.e. Podz size); turns 31 next season; and (worst of all on a team with a fairly desperate need for secondary scoring) has scored a whopping 6.8 ppg over his career.
Yeah, he’s a defensive savant with a super positive impact on the scoreboard over his career. So is GP2.
Edit: and the fact that he’s coming off his best scoring season ever at 30 just makes me think how ridiculous it is to put a hard ceiling on Kuminga at 21.
Harris and Kuzma are no one's favorite targets and I am sure there would be games I would tear my hair out at both of them. But with tools like the MLE and Wiggins? Well, we aren't dining at the French Laundry.
They both give size at least. And they both can sorta fill the second creator role that we would desperately lack. But if there's a way to add prime Kawhi, I'd be down. That's pretty much what that roster is missing. Hell, if current Lebron wants to play at the Expendables, basketball edition, I'd be down.
They will be able to put that high BBIQ to good use analyzing why they got run out of the gym again, over and over, and conclude that they are too old, short, unathletic, and can't shoot or score. This could certainly inform NEXT offseason's moves, if nothing else.
I mean, it's probably true that the season would end with some uber athletic team jumping out of the gym at them, but what's the alternative? JK growing into the most athletic player in the league? They don't really have a way to become athletic while still employing Steph and Dray. Lean into your identity.
And for god's sake, trade JK before you give him a second contract and screw yourself for the next 4 years. He just got played off the court by a team with like the 20th best young core in the league. And that was the most important game of his 3rd year in the league. His second contract has all the biggest red warning lights flashing at us.
To be fair, when I replied I was under the impression that Caruso had declined last season, and he hadn't, on the contrary. I kinda agree on the second contract issue with JK, but I'd want a young athletic player or lockdown defender in return, in addition to Caruso. I'm also negative on Harris, Batum (who *is* declining heavily), and Kuz.
That player isn't on the Bulls unfortunately. There's definitely something to be said about targeting youth in the offseason. It's why I think DeAnthony Melton is the single best value FA available. I would gladly sign him instead of a Tobias Harris in a vacuum. But he's another PG/SG and with Steph, Podz, Moody, and GPII (and in my plan, Caruso), he's just not a fit positionally. And anyone better is just a pipedream.
If the Dubs could somehow pry Deni Avidja in a Wiggins/Kuzma deal, he's another super interesting name. But the problem is you can only incrementally improve with each trade or signing and any dramatic acquisition is not plausible. So do I think the Dubs win the title with the roster above? No. But is it still the best I can envision? Yeah.
I'd rather have Kuninga and Wiggins than Caruso and Kuzma.
Yes, I agree JK is still kind of in netherland in terms of his 2nd contract long term value, but I could see it go either way.
It would be nice to see how AW plays next year before jettisoning him for the sake of making changes. We have seen his talents when he performs up to potential.
Also need more time to gauge how things play out next season with our young guys developing. They all have decent qualities, but have only had limited apportuities to shoulder a major load/role. I'm not sold on either Podz or TJD as solid foundation piece starters of a championship team. Maybe they will be, but I did not see it yet.
The salary cap, tax, apron etc. situation makes substantial overhauls very difficult. As a long time fan, I'd like to see the team we've had and enjoy the older vets working with the new younger players for at least another year.
"I'd rather have Kuninga and Wiggins than Caruso and Kuzma."
That's the crux of the argument and people who disagree with me will never agree on. Because to me, it's not close. Caruso is an extremely positive player that I can count on to be a starter for a deep playoff run. Every game Caruso plays, he'll give a positive impact.
Wiggins, Kuminga, and Kuzma are all lottery tickets where you're just happy if it ends up being green, not red. And counting on any of them is, well, counting on scratchers as your retirement plan. And they're expensive scratchers, because you have to give them minutes and they can easily lose you a bunch of games.
Man, how nice would it be if Gui turns into a nice rotational player for us next season. There are moves to be made if we want to creep back into the conversation but honestly I feel pretty good about our group of young guys.
"Draymond Green missed 27 games, and the Warriors still won 46 games and won 25 games on the road. You're not going to tell me that this wasn't a 53- or 54-win team if Draymond played some of those 27 games? So where would 52 wins got you? It would have got you the four seed. You would have had a home court advantage in round one. Dallas won 50 games and they went to the Finals...
"This whole like oh, the Warriors are done, and they need to trade 17 dudes and change their whole roster. Like, no! They can't have Draymond miss 27 games, just like Jokic couldn't miss 27 games, or Giannis couldn't miss 27 games, or Luka couldn't miss 27 games. The NBA, if your best players play a lot of games, you'll get the max results for your team. Last year, the Warriors had one of their absolute core pieces, indispensable guys miss 27 games."
I still don't buy this line of reasoning. Dray was beat up and likely in a bad mental space. If he never gets suspended, the Warrior lose some / many / all of these games closer to end of the season when he's even more hobbled and angry. Maybe JK and TJD never emerge the way they did. At least this way we got an interesting closing spurt to the RS rather than mediocrity throughout, and some modicum of hope for improvement next season.
Donovan Mitchell to the bay? Jarret Allen to the bay? But also... Cleveland has no cap space, so there's no way they can get Klay unless they're dumping one of their core players (Mitchell, Allen, Garland), or sending out multiple of Lavert, Struss, Mobley, or Niang. And Klay's a free agent, so it'd require a S&T to make the money work... it's a big challenge to get him to Cleveland at a salary north of the NTPMLE...
Would we want Donovan Mitchell? He's smallish; can he defend? I thought we'd want a longer, more defensive-minded guy to pair with Steph, preferably one who can shoot a 3.
As for Jarrett Allen, I'm game. What else are we giving up?
I assume the Dubs would have the big salary going out, and the Cavs would have to match that somehow. If so, the Dubs wouldn't *have* to give up anything else. But maybe the Dubs would be nice and throw in Wigs?
Whether or the Dubs don't throw in Wigs, would the Cavs be able to send some of the outgoing pieces to a third team, or must the Cavs send all the salary match to the same team of the player acquired in the S&T (in this case, the Dubs)?
Except it would hard-cap us... so it's not quite straight forward... and it would require Klay taking a roughly $20M contract. At that point, wouldn't we just sign and keep him?
Ahhh... so if you S&T and send out a guy, you're not hard capped? Only if you're receiving somebody on a S&T? Interesting... I thought it was both sides for some reason.
vignette17 is right. Only the team that receives the S&T player is hard capped. But of course y’all are assuming the Cavs want to trade for Klay. Plus Klay’s not going to do that for less than he can get on the open market, which means CLE has to throw in more salary, and we presumably would have to balance that with picks.
I think they want to be below that apron anyways so the hard cap might not be such a bad thing, but I'm also not 100% sure on sign and trade rules. You definitely get hard-capped if you receive a free agent who is S&T'd, but not sure if you do when you receive matching salary for your free agent.
I don't think Klay's yearly number is the big issue, it's the years. So if Cleveland offered him 3y/65M or something like that it might make sense.
Again in the world of wild speculation it's not that crazy. I could see the Cavs looking to continue to build up their shooting.
It's at least head games. Whether that's all it is, who can say?
As a fan, I don't like it. But if Klay is hoping that this will rile the fan base and put pressure on the Ws, he may be sorely disappointed. To me, it makes his leaving more concrete as a possibility, and I find that I can live with it. I wasn't rooting for it, but if he's ready to signal that he's done with the Dubs, for whatever reason (negotiating included), I feel less attached. And that's sad.
I feel much the same way. I also suspect MDJ will not be swayed by media reports and who Klay does or doesn’t follow on social media. He’ll offer the deal the FO and Lacob are willing to offer, and he’ll say the right things.
I think the vast majority of what we read in the media this time of year about free agents, draft picks, and trades is rubbish. When actual deals are announced, then we’ll see what’s real. AsYogi Berra might have said (but didn’t), “it ain’t real until it’s real."
I think Klay wants to be in the Bay, but money talks. In the end, I think he ends up re-signing for a length and amount that many people don't like: maybe in the 3/80 to even 3/90 range.
EDIT: I really want the Splash Bros to stay together, but I'll respect MDJ's decision, especially if Klay's demands become ridiculous.
You could be right but max money isn’t always the determining factor for a player who is going to make very good money regardless. There’s being on a team with a chance at winning; I can’t see Klay being happy on a bad team. (Of course we weren’t a contender this year but we can still be competitive.)
There’s also lifestyle. For instance, the main reasons Paul George wanted to play with the Clippers were that he wanted to play with Kawhi and he’s from the L.A. area. He was going to make his money either way. Then again, maybe Klay would like to play in L.A. or Portland (albeit the Blazers aren’t very good), since he has roots there. But Cleveland? Yeah, they’re good but is that where he wants to play the last few years of his career? Permit me to doubt. There’s also how the player feels about management. How pissed is Klay? (We don’t know.)
Here in the Bay Area, he can be with a competitive team, he has a great lifestyle, he has had great fan support, he is playing with friends who understand how to play with him, and if his alleged disappointment with management is not a big deal, maybe that’s worth taking less — if it’s not TOO much less.
The truth is, none of really has a clue what will happen, and we won’t until it happens.
If he expects to start, to finish, and to keep his "any shot is a good shot for me" attitude, then it is a major mistake for the team to try to retain him and for him to come back at any price. If he re-signs with that understanding, I predict it will either mean a very frustrating season for fans of the team as the team struggles to make the play-in and misses the play-offs, or a very frustrating season for fans of the Klay, as he spends major parts of most games pouting on the bench.
This is not a fact, but it is what I expect.
I think a better outcome for all parties would be for him to go someplace else, have his 2 years of occasional heat-check threes going in, while the team tries to rebuild its "Strength in Numbers" identity with the 2 stars who's performance is more consistent and understanding that they are nearing the end of their careers is more real.
I get frustrated with Klay’s gunning too. In fairness, though, he still shot .387 from 3 this past year and .412 the year before. That’s more than occasional heat-check threes.
Ohio isn’t landlocked. Cleveland is right on Lake Erie, plenty of boating there.
Adding: Also, southern Ohio isn’t landlocked either. The Ohio River is a major navigable waterway that empties into the Mississippi and thence to the Gulf.
You are right that Ohio is not land-locked. But MAN, what a come-down. From sitting on the dock of the bay, sailing under the Golden Gate Bridge, and looking out onto western skies at sunset . . . to navigating the dirtiest "Great" Lake of the 5 and having to take some old canal with 8 locks just to get from there to Lake Ontario (and even more distance to get to the ocean) because boats can't navigate over the Niagara Falls.
I admit, the San Francisco Bay is not some pristine paradise. But its a whole bunch of magnitudes cleaner and aesthetically pleasing than Lake Erie.
[Givony] Rich Paul: "There's no deal made that it's guaranteed that if the Lakers draft Bronny at 55, he (LeBron) will resign... We don't need leverage. The Lakers can draft Bronny, and LeBron doesn't resign. LeBron is also not going to Phoenix for a minimum deal. We can squash that now."
Paul George says losing Robert Covington and Nicolas Batum really hurt the Clippers:
“We started the year off hot. Everybody was playing well, there was the energy there. It was kinda like the first time of us all being healthy with Russ now. It was the emergence of what it’s like being with Russ now with myself healthy, Kawhi healthy, and Russ full-time here. It was kind of like a fresh start… Then we traded to get James, and it’s not James’ fault of why we struggled, but the lost part of that was we lost RoCo, we lost Nico… Now you grab James, who is super talented offensively, now myself, Kawhi, we become the dirty guys…”
I've also wondered this. Some thoughts. Even though below NBA standards, his finishes around the rim did improve (I think 2-3 years ago). This year (maybe last year) he added a couple of drives to the basket to finish while protecting the ball with his body. But why no outside shot? Several possible reasons: 1. He can't make them consistently; 2. He can, but the offensive is to give the ball back to Steph or Klay, so he's not supposed to shoot; 3. His asthma limits his wind, and outside shooting (as many of us know!) is the first thing to go when winded or with tired legs; 4. He hasn't worked hard enough on it, as suggested by others.
Overall I wonder if he needs to loose 10-20 lbs? Is he carrying too much weight for his hips and the rest of his body and that's what led to the decline last year? His rebounding and parts of his defense will suffer with less bulk, but maybe overall a worthwhile or even needed change?
I did a little scouting around and couldn’t find any studies on how much and how often NBA players can improve their 3P% and FT%.
It may be that improvements like Jason Kidd and Brook Lopez are extreme outliers and we can’t say that most players can significantly improve their shot with sheer effort. That’s what my gut tells me. In general, players already work very hard on their shot just to make it to the pros, so they might already be near the limits of their performance. Saying Looney should work harder on his shot might be like saying a batter should work harder on raising their batting average. Easier said than done.
I agree with your main point don’t think hitting is a good comparison. Batters can and do work to improve their batting average but it’s a different thing than shooting from distance. It’s not just more practice or correct technique. They might stop trying to uppercut or pull everything, alter their stance, be more willing to hit to the opposite field, lay off a certain pitch that they can’t handle, etc.
That said, one aspect that would be more comparable to hitting is better shot selection.
Yes, my comp was a quick one without much thought.
But sometimes I feel like “Kevon Looney should learn to shoot 3s” is like “Brandon Crawford should learn to hit home runs”. It’s not just about time and effort. At the highest levels there are personal limits.
Thanks for adding some facts! Steve Nash also became a better shooter with age (until back problems), and I've always wondered if some of improved shooting (in general, not specific to Loon) is maturity to settle in to be as repetitive and simple as possible. Also, while overall athletic skills diminish, muscle memory can improve. Finally, those who practice at game speed (talking about you, Steph) see results that translate into games. I still remember being able to spot great practice shooters at pickup games who, once you sped them up in a game or made them uncomfortable, became average or worse --there's some maturity in practice and mindset that seem to be potential areas to improve in. Though again, not clear that this will work for Loon (or Draymond).
They always want the shiny object. Then if they get it, they drag it through the mud, team underperforms their unjustified inflated expectations, and Rob Pelinka blames the formerly shiny new object for all that is wrong in Lakerdom. Then they get rid of it. Rinse in dirty water, repeat.
I don't know what Looney or the Warriors have done to try to develop his shooting. It's certainly hard to put much blame on the Warriors. There's really not too much evidence he's a good prospect to become a stretch big. He's a 62% FT shooter for his career, and he doesn't have very good touch.
Even if he did become a decent 3P shooter it's not this magic pill that opens up the offense. He's got a slow release, he's painfully slow, and he's not a great finisher. Teams aren't going to guard him behind the 3P line because they can sag way off and still feel comfortable closing out. Even with a hard close out he's not going to cause any damage off the dribble. The realistic version is him taking like 1-2 3P's a game, and making one every other game. It's definitely not a bad thing, and certainly worth exploring. Maybe even finding out if he can rediscover some lost atheticism. No harm in working to get better.
But realistically, TJD is a much more likely 3P threat.
I do disagree about it being important that he being able to do anything off the dribble from the 3 point line.
I really have no idea if he can get with a great shooting coach and actually become something from 3 point land.
Maybe he has tried and it was hopeless for whatever reason.
I was just reaching for the moon and thinking he could shock the world. The Warriors need something unexpected with all of their money and trade possibilities problems.
Hey maybe Dray will be able to shoot in the second half of games next year. That was a crazy stat!
My guess is that the injuries have made it hard for him to get consistent enough in his upward shooting motion. It may not be an issue of practice or of touch.
Don’t you find it weird that any guy who loves playing hoops would let himself degenerate into a non scoring screen setter? Especially with his background?
I would pay a large sum of money if I had any to find out the story.
Reimagine the Warriors with KL and the I only make 3’s in the first half Dray being true floor spacers! The dream!
I don't understand why you think he's not trying ... film is posted every summer of him taking outside shots.
It could be as simple as, the coaches realize he's not a great shooter and have told him if your choice is take a 3 pointer or pass the ball, we want you to pass the ball. Not everyone can shoot, and bigs typically are worse at it.
I've always said and sometimes posted this. Whenever I say "that guy has very few offensive skills," someone refers me to his high school and college vids. Like that's the point. He's a lousy NBA offensive player and as far as we can see, has not worked on his outside shot, nor on his drive to the hole. For seven years he's been setting screens and playing defense and being a good team player. The ONLY improvement I've seen in his game has been that added elbow hitch in his free throw form. Get in the gym and hoist threes like you mean it.
What confuses me is the Warriors have an organization that I in my simplemindedness would think might just see that Looney Tunes being a floor stretcher vs a floor shrinker would be prudent.
Why did KL not take it upon himself? Makes no sense at all.
It is hard to believe that a staff of 50 coaches or whatever they have would not see the importance.
It almost nutty as it sounds, seems like they told him they don’t want him shooting the ball. We have the greatest 3 point shooters in the world so set screens!!!
Again probably all looney tunes over this but really hard to believe KL has no desire or pride in being able to light up the board some.
I want an investigation into the Warriors Looney malpractice!!!
I bet we trade either him or Wiggs. If we trade Wiggs, depending on who we get back, I think it could be helpful to have GP’s defense around (and vice-versa).
His contract at 9M is a more moveable filler contract for a potential trade, so that may have been the reason. Especially if Looney's contract is off the books.
First the Dubs have to get below the second tax apron, which probably means waiving CP3. Otherwise they can’t combine salaries in a trade for a more expensive player so GP2 as filler won’t work.
I think they'd miss his on court performance, but (if they do trade him) they decided he wasn't able to be on the court enough for them to justify keeping him around at that price.
A few years ago the Nuggets traded JaMychal Green and a future first for the #30 pick and a couple second rounders to OKC. Green made around what GP2 makes now. I could see the Warriors looking for a salary dump like that during the draft, although the introduction of the second round exception with the new CBA makes those late first rounders less valuable to high salaried teams.
Or maybe they'll try to package him to actually get a player. We know they've been interested in Caruso for awhile and supposedly tried to trade Moody for him at the deadline, maybe they revisit that with GP2 as the mid-sized matching salary.
So… Monty Williams was just fired by the Pistons with five (!) years left on his contract. Should we snap him up for Kerr’s top AC? IIRC, he and Kerr are close…
Didn't he take Phoenix to the finals -- where they hadn't been in almost 20 years? I would accept that as an indicator that the reputation is deserved.
I’m not sure there’s any hard evidence that *any* coach is good (or bad) at his or her job. Really hard to distill the isolated effects of coaching from the quality of the players.
I wouldn't try to isolate the effects of coaching from the quality of players, but there have been teams with plenty of talent who haven't been to a final. Think of the Harden Rockets or the Durant Nets. I'm ready to give credit to those who got that far -- more so if they can do it repeatedly. That's why even with his shortcomings, I'm always inclined to give Kerr a LOT of leeway.
I wonder what his motivation level would be. I have to imagine there is offset clauses in the contract he got from the Pistons so I'm not sure whether he would even get additional money to coach. His wife also had cancer last summer, and part of his hesitance to coach the Pistons was around wanting to be with her. I believe she is cancer-free now, but he might still
If somebody was going to pay me $65 mil to play on the beach for five years, I'd let them.
He's got like five kids (which I found out when his first wife died in an auto accident). Don't know how many are still in the house, but I'm guessing he takes some time off.
I haven't seen convincing evidence that Wiseman is an NBA caliber player. That's not meant in an emotional way. It just seems to be the case. he could develop. But then again, so could a lot G league players. We shall see.
I am not hopeful. Downthread someone asked why Looney doesn't practice jump shots. I wonder the same about Wiseman. It may not have worked, but I will always wonder why he didn't spend all summer making himself into a stretch big. If his defense is never going to be better than C- (which some seem to think would be his ceiling), maybe he should said "Screw that" and spend his time trying to become a lights-out shooter. His form was pretty good, I think he just needed all the reps he missed getting in college. Plus maybe more. That would have been a way to stay on the floor. Teams could move him to forward and scheme around his defensive weakness. But trying to go beyond his ceiling defensively just . . . now he's got no identity except "Guy who couldn't catch (a break)".
I still hope it works out for him. But I am very doubtful it will. I hope my doubts prove wrong.
I think the "Harry Giles rule" gives Wiseman an extra year of two-way eligibility since he missed his second season. Could be wrong, but I think that's how it works and if so I think he'll get a two-way offer from someone.
Because you love it? Because the opportunity to stay in the league may be a limited time offer (cf. Mark Jackson), so you want to do it while you can? Because it is fun, and few people get a chance to do something like this in their lifetime?
My favourite date: July 20: USA Basketball Showcase in London: USA vs. South Sudan (3 ET, FOX)
as I will be there :) Looking forward to seeing Steph and KD on the court together again! Last time I saw them live was the 2019 playoff series against Houston...
Also, late to the party I know, but that pod with Perks was epic. Everyone should watch it :)
Cool! I’m just going to miss being around for that one. Have fun.
I’m curious which players are involved with team South Sudan. It’s an amazing story because, even now, almost anyone of Olympic basketball age from that country would have grown up at least partially during their long, awful civil war. And yet quite a number of NBA players have emerged: Luol Deng, Thon Maker, Duop Reath, and others. I believe there’s a major prospect in next year’s draft from there, too, though I’ve forgotten his name… Anyway, a pretty cool event all around.
Yeah, can't wait. I saw one of the 2012 warm-up games (vs GB in Manchester) which was awesome. I remember thinking how KD was just head and shoulders above everyone else on the team and that this young kid from Kentucky looked pretty good!
Hello! I feel like I owe you a reply from the last time I visited, but by the time I got to it, it was like 5 threads ago... hope life is treating you well :)
Alright, crazy thinking here:
If the Warriors release rights on Klay (and get rid of his cap hold), and release Looney, and guarantee CP3's contract, they're at 11 players and $169M committed, well under the trade restricting aprons. They could package CP3's $30M and another player (GP2?) for a $30-40M player. Then you've got:
Starters:
Steph, New guy, Dray, [Wiggins or JK], TJD
Bench:
[Wiggins or JK], Moody, Podz, [probably Looney], and Gui, TPMLE, 3x vet min.
It needs growth from the youngsters, and a relative return to "Good Wiggins", but that's a solid roster...
I'd probably rather get Klay back on a cheaper deal, let CP3 walk, and either keep GP2 or trade him... but if we know we're losing Klay, keeping CP3 is a viable path to improving the roster without blowing the bank.
There's nothing crazy about that plan. If you can keep the young guys and add a top 40 player closer to his prime it's really that middle strategy that fits the bill.
It's just the open question of who the $30-40M player is? Can they get that player without giving up Kuminga, Moody, Podz?
You could probably go get Jerami Grant and give up very little.
There's some smaller guards that are gettable: Dejounte Murray, Anfernee Simons, but the fit is questionable
I think Brandon Ingram would make a lot of sense, but rumors are they are not interested
You want to take a crack at rehabbing Deandre Ayton?
The best fits out there would be Markkanen or Mikal Bridges. The first problem with both of those two is that neither of those teams has shown any inclination to sell. Now, I think both of those teams CLEARLY should. They are thoroughly mediocre squads with elite complimentary players in their prime. They should do what the Spurs did with Dejounte Murray. Max out value on those guys, get sub-mediocre and put yourself in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes. The 2nd problem is those guys fit for everyone and that if they did hit the market lots of teams would be interested in overpaying to get them.
But if you could trade for Mikal Bridges just using picks and contracts he'd be such a perfect fit. Slot him in as a replacement at SG for Klay and you have a really interesting lineup.
wing swap: Wiggs, Moody, Kuminga for Bridges & DFS
how many picks do the Dubs have to add for Brooklyn to make that deal?
They should give us picks for kuminga
I'm not sure. I would not be interested in that deal. It's a good roster, but I don't think we can expect Steph at age 36 to have that type of offensive responsibility to carry the team to a championship. There's no historical comparison that you could make for that. Bridges is a really good player, but not that type of secondary creator in my mind.
I think a realistic title chance at this point comes with betting on the growth and upside of Kuminga or Moody and more likely Kuminga. It might even take another year or two.
So if it were Moody, contracts/Wiggins, plus a couple first round picks and a pick swap, I could definitely be talked into that.
(Dubs roster then looks like:
Steph, Klay, Bridges, Dray, Trayce
Podz, GP2, DFS, Loon
room to bring in an MLE guy to bolster the bench)
I think the timing makes it tricky though. CP3's contract needs to be guaranteed before the date when Klay can even start negotiating with other teams. Until that starts, it seems pretty impossible to know whether he is staying or leaving (unless he just flat out says he won't return at any price, which is unlikely).
As mentioned in the podcast, CP3s date could be pushed back with mutual agreement, but it may not make sense for CP3 to agree.
In terms of players to trade for, there are probably only a couple that fit the bill of player in that range where the team is willing to get worse just for a couple picks. Maybe a couple potential possibilities like Lavine or Jerami Grant, but it's not a huge list, and there may be better offers out there for anyone suitable.
> I think the timing makes it tricky though. CP3's contract needs to be guaranteed before the date when Klay can even start negotiating with other teams.
I'd argue that tampering is already happening. Teams just have to be less blatant about it than the teams that got punished last year. If Klay has high confidence in getting an offer above what the Warriors are willing to pay, the Warriors focus on figuring out what to do with CP3's contract. If there's value to the Warriors in deferring the decision on CP3, they can negotiate a guarantee date deferral.
It's absolutely not a huge list, but it just takes one decent fit... I'd really hate for it to be Zack LaVine tho, yuck... but I'd probably have said that about Andrew Wiggins before we acquired him too, so if they do go for LaVine, I'd trust they think he'll do well here... and if he tries on defense, doesn't get injured, and gets some shine from playing with Steph, it could turn out really well.
liked because this matches my thoughts on LaVine: I have doubts/concerns, but Kevin Durant is not walking through that door, and so if the team decides to bet on LaVine I will talk myself into it
lotta overlap with Klay tho as scoring guards with questions about defense & playmaking
Yeah, lotta overlap. Which is why it only makes sense to acquire LaVine if Klay's gone. But at the same time, LaVine has only had 37% of his FGM assisted, and 61% of his 3PM... he is much more of a "second creator" than Klay.
yeah, releasing Klay and guaranteeing CP3's contract is one of two ways to get salary ballast to trade for a big star (the other is to trade Wiggs, of course).
On the other hand, what team is going to want CP3 at $30 mil/GP2 at $10? Those are negative contracts. You'd have to throw a lot else in (Kuminga, and picks, certainly) to get a 1a/2 type of player.
And, you're probably not going to get a piece that puts you over the top for that. Klay/CP3/GP2/Kuminga is a lot of minutes to fill, and one player won't do it. So, you're looking at a TPMLE to fill in any gaps.
My problem with all these trades is that an upgrade for one player doesn't make us a contender. You come back to hoping from growth from your existing team, with one player augmenting things some.
But, is that worth trading the farm for? To be a contender, you still need very good health from Dray and Steph. Plus you need two of Moody/Kuminga/TJD/Podz (whoever is still around after the trade) to basically hit it out of the park. Might as well just stick with what you have and hope for that. At least you'll have assets to do any tweaking if it does happen.
i like the part where the Dubs release Klay
Who would trade for CP3 and GP2 at those salaries?
Noone by themselves, but if it in a package to get Kuminga and those juicy picks, they might.
"Juicy picks"?
I was figuring you'd add picks. You are getting a "disgruntled" or underperforming player for a "CP3+GP2+picks" package, and not a superstar... which has worked out for us previously.
So I've read a few ideas here and come up with a super aggressive offseason with some of these ideas that have been floating around. Some of them will be super unpopular, so let's get them out of the way first:
Jonathan Kuminga for Alex Caruso: We know the Dubs were interested at the deadline and while it's a raw skills downgrade, it's a huge BBIQ upgrade. It does mean that the Dubs are getting even smaller, so other moves will have to fill the size gap later.
Klay S&T for Jarrett Allen: The Dubs finally get a center who can block a shot and consistently post positive +/- numbers. Klay still can be a positive in this league, but I don't think it can be for the Dubs. There's too much history here.
Wiggs plus removing all but 1-3 protection on the FRP for Kuzma: It's not a fun trade, but it's pretty much the only way to trade the anchor that is Wiggins. Kuzma is more at ease scoring on broken plays and can guard 3/4 more readily than Wiggs who is more 2/3. It also allows the Dubs to trade a pick and still leave their full arsenal. While I'd love to target a Mikal Bridges instead, the value difference is just too great.
Sign Tobias Harris to NTPMLE. Harris consistently is a positive +/- and helps fill the 3/4 gap as well. It also pushes Kuzma to 6th man where he was when the Lakers won the title. If Harris doesn't sign for that little, sign DeAnthony Melton for that spot.
Sign Batum to a vet min. He was a target multiple times for the Dubs. Do they finally get their man?
Cut Looney and bring him back for vet min. Every dollar matters for getting a full NTPMLE.
The roster finally looks like:
Steph/Podz
Caruso/Moody/GP II
Harris/Kuzma
Draymond/Batum
Allen/TJD/Looney
It's not a young team, nor an especially athletic team. It likely has some spacing issues, and it's missing guys who can score 1:1 a ton. But what is chock full of is players who have super high BBIQ and consistently post out of this world +/- numbers. And at this point, that's all I can ask for.
>Jonathan Kuminga for Alex Caruso
I'd like to get Caruso, but not just for JK
>Klay S&T for Jarrett Allen
Tempting TBH, but Klay either stays or walks. I highly doubt we deal him in a S&T
>Wiggs plus removing all but 1-3 protection on the FRP for Kuzma
I can get behind this one.
>Sign Tobias Harris to NTPMLE.
>Sign Batum to a vet min.
Huge pass. If we give Wiggs crap for disappearing at times I have a feeling we're going to LOATHE Harris. I'm still down for Batum though. I think he can still be a great fit with us.
Thank you for sharing this, though. Always love seeing other members taking their time on these posts. Makes fun a fun offseason discussion.
> I can get behind this one (Wiggs plus removing all but 1-3 protection on the FRP for Kuzma)
That’s the only one I’m down with as well. And even there, I don’t love it, and wouldn’t want to throw in any valuable draft capital to grease the wheels. Maybe kick in the #11-20 portion of the 2030 pick? I don’t think the margin between Wiggs and Kuzma (such at it is) is worth much more than that.
…
Kuminga for Caruso is just … blecchhhh to me. I don’t care how high Alex’s hoops IQ is: dude is 6’-5” with short arms (i.e. Podz size); turns 31 next season; and (worst of all on a team with a fairly desperate need for secondary scoring) has scored a whopping 6.8 ppg over his career.
Yeah, he’s a defensive savant with a super positive impact on the scoreboard over his career. So is GP2.
Edit: and the fact that he’s coming off his best scoring season ever at 30 just makes me think how ridiculous it is to put a hard ceiling on Kuminga at 21.
#BetterThanJaylenBrown
Or you see the present value of Mikal Bridges, see where he was at age 21-23, and wonder how it would be possible to trade Moody.
Harris and Kuzma are no one's favorite targets and I am sure there would be games I would tear my hair out at both of them. But with tools like the MLE and Wiggins? Well, we aren't dining at the French Laundry.
They both give size at least. And they both can sorta fill the second creator role that we would desperately lack. But if there's a way to add prime Kawhi, I'd be down. That's pretty much what that roster is missing. Hell, if current Lebron wants to play at the Expendables, basketball edition, I'd be down.
They will be able to put that high BBIQ to good use analyzing why they got run out of the gym again, over and over, and conclude that they are too old, short, unathletic, and can't shoot or score. This could certainly inform NEXT offseason's moves, if nothing else.
In other words, I don't like this plan AT ALL.
I mean, it's probably true that the season would end with some uber athletic team jumping out of the gym at them, but what's the alternative? JK growing into the most athletic player in the league? They don't really have a way to become athletic while still employing Steph and Dray. Lean into your identity.
And for god's sake, trade JK before you give him a second contract and screw yourself for the next 4 years. He just got played off the court by a team with like the 20th best young core in the league. And that was the most important game of his 3rd year in the league. His second contract has all the biggest red warning lights flashing at us.
To be fair, when I replied I was under the impression that Caruso had declined last season, and he hadn't, on the contrary. I kinda agree on the second contract issue with JK, but I'd want a young athletic player or lockdown defender in return, in addition to Caruso. I'm also negative on Harris, Batum (who *is* declining heavily), and Kuz.
That player isn't on the Bulls unfortunately. There's definitely something to be said about targeting youth in the offseason. It's why I think DeAnthony Melton is the single best value FA available. I would gladly sign him instead of a Tobias Harris in a vacuum. But he's another PG/SG and with Steph, Podz, Moody, and GPII (and in my plan, Caruso), he's just not a fit positionally. And anyone better is just a pipedream.
If the Dubs could somehow pry Deni Avidja in a Wiggins/Kuzma deal, he's another super interesting name. But the problem is you can only incrementally improve with each trade or signing and any dramatic acquisition is not plausible. So do I think the Dubs win the title with the roster above? No. But is it still the best I can envision? Yeah.
I'd rather have Kuninga and Wiggins than Caruso and Kuzma.
Yes, I agree JK is still kind of in netherland in terms of his 2nd contract long term value, but I could see it go either way.
It would be nice to see how AW plays next year before jettisoning him for the sake of making changes. We have seen his talents when he performs up to potential.
Also need more time to gauge how things play out next season with our young guys developing. They all have decent qualities, but have only had limited apportuities to shoulder a major load/role. I'm not sold on either Podz or TJD as solid foundation piece starters of a championship team. Maybe they will be, but I did not see it yet.
The salary cap, tax, apron etc. situation makes substantial overhauls very difficult. As a long time fan, I'd like to see the team we've had and enjoy the older vets working with the new younger players for at least another year.
"I'd rather have Kuninga and Wiggins than Caruso and Kuzma."
That's the crux of the argument and people who disagree with me will never agree on. Because to me, it's not close. Caruso is an extremely positive player that I can count on to be a starter for a deep playoff run. Every game Caruso plays, he'll give a positive impact.
Wiggins, Kuminga, and Kuzma are all lottery tickets where you're just happy if it ends up being green, not red. And counting on any of them is, well, counting on scratchers as your retirement plan. And they're expensive scratchers, because you have to give them minutes and they can easily lose you a bunch of games.
Man, how nice would it be if Gui turns into a nice rotational player for us next season. There are moves to be made if we want to creep back into the conversation but honestly I feel pretty good about our group of young guys.
Gui shot a respectable 37% (10-27) on 3P. It always felt like a fluke, but the shot looked pretty good. If that’s real, that would be huge.
He made almost all of the momentum swinging 3s too so he's good in my book
I'm convinced one of you is Fitz.
"Draymond Green missed 27 games, and the Warriors still won 46 games and won 25 games on the road. You're not going to tell me that this wasn't a 53- or 54-win team if Draymond played some of those 27 games? So where would 52 wins got you? It would have got you the four seed. You would have had a home court advantage in round one. Dallas won 50 games and they went to the Finals...
"This whole like oh, the Warriors are done, and they need to trade 17 dudes and change their whole roster. Like, no! They can't have Draymond miss 27 games, just like Jokic couldn't miss 27 games, or Giannis couldn't miss 27 games, or Luka couldn't miss 27 games. The NBA, if your best players play a lot of games, you'll get the max results for your team. Last year, the Warriors had one of their absolute core pieces, indispensable guys miss 27 games."
https://www.audacy.com/957thegame/sports/golden-state-warriors/fitz-explains-why-warriors-dont-need-to-make-major-moves
I still don't buy this line of reasoning. Dray was beat up and likely in a bad mental space. If he never gets suspended, the Warrior lose some / many / all of these games closer to end of the season when he's even more hobbled and angry. Maybe JK and TJD never emerge the way they did. At least this way we got an interesting closing spurt to the RS rather than mediocrity throughout, and some modicum of hope for improvement next season.
Dray = Jokic or Giannis? Cool story, Boob. Now tell me about his 7’-5” wingspan…
I get a feeling we're not done pursuing Caruso yet
If we trade for Caruso, I bet the Bulls will try and trade Zach LaVine to us.
That’s the only version of a Caruso trade I’m interested in
The dream has sailed away haha🙃 was a hypothetical I liked too as a fallout if Klay was gone.
Klay has followed the Mobley brothers on IG. After following Luke Walton, who's a coach for the Cavs.
Donovan Mitchell to the bay? Jarret Allen to the bay? But also... Cleveland has no cap space, so there's no way they can get Klay unless they're dumping one of their core players (Mitchell, Allen, Garland), or sending out multiple of Lavert, Struss, Mobley, or Niang. And Klay's a free agent, so it'd require a S&T to make the money work... it's a big challenge to get him to Cleveland at a salary north of the NTPMLE...
Would we want Donovan Mitchell? He's smallish; can he defend? I thought we'd want a longer, more defensive-minded guy to pair with Steph, preferably one who can shoot a 3.
As for Jarrett Allen, I'm game. What else are we giving up?
I assume the Dubs would have the big salary going out, and the Cavs would have to match that somehow. If so, the Dubs wouldn't *have* to give up anything else. But maybe the Dubs would be nice and throw in Wigs?
Whether or the Dubs don't throw in Wigs, would the Cavs be able to send some of the outgoing pieces to a third team, or must the Cavs send all the salary match to the same team of the player acquired in the S&T (in this case, the Dubs)?
I can’t think of a reason Cleveland would want that deal.
If we are recklessly speculating a S&T for Jarett Allen would be pretty straightforward.
Except it would hard-cap us... so it's not quite straight forward... and it would require Klay taking a roughly $20M contract. At that point, wouldn't we just sign and keep him?
The Cavs would be hard-capped, not us. Allen is already under contract.
Ahhh... so if you S&T and send out a guy, you're not hard capped? Only if you're receiving somebody on a S&T? Interesting... I thought it was both sides for some reason.
vignette17 is right. Only the team that receives the S&T player is hard capped. But of course y’all are assuming the Cavs want to trade for Klay. Plus Klay’s not going to do that for less than he can get on the open market, which means CLE has to throw in more salary, and we presumably would have to balance that with picks.
I think they want to be below that apron anyways so the hard cap might not be such a bad thing, but I'm also not 100% sure on sign and trade rules. You definitely get hard-capped if you receive a free agent who is S&T'd, but not sure if you do when you receive matching salary for your free agent.
I don't think Klay's yearly number is the big issue, it's the years. So if Cleveland offered him 3y/65M or something like that it might make sense.
Again in the world of wild speculation it's not that crazy. I could see the Cavs looking to continue to build up their shooting.
Wonder how much his agent told him to do all this Instagram stuff during negotiation tactics.
Untill he starts following me, I don't care what he does on the gram 😤
Indeed, it could just be head games. I wouldn’t take it seriously.
It's at least head games. Whether that's all it is, who can say?
As a fan, I don't like it. But if Klay is hoping that this will rile the fan base and put pressure on the Ws, he may be sorely disappointed. To me, it makes his leaving more concrete as a possibility, and I find that I can live with it. I wasn't rooting for it, but if he's ready to signal that he's done with the Dubs, for whatever reason (negotiating included), I feel less attached. And that's sad.
I feel much the same way. I also suspect MDJ will not be swayed by media reports and who Klay does or doesn’t follow on social media. He’ll offer the deal the FO and Lacob are willing to offer, and he’ll say the right things.
I think the vast majority of what we read in the media this time of year about free agents, draft picks, and trades is rubbish. When actual deals are announced, then we’ll see what’s real. AsYogi Berra might have said (but didn’t), “it ain’t real until it’s real."
I think Klay wants to be in the Bay, but money talks. In the end, I think he ends up re-signing for a length and amount that many people don't like: maybe in the 3/80 to even 3/90 range.
EDIT: I really want the Splash Bros to stay together, but I'll respect MDJ's decision, especially if Klay's demands become ridiculous.
I want him to stay but he also needs to have a mentality of being 100% coachable.
Team has not been united in winning a chip since 22'. I just want to see strength on numbers and next man up mentality return.
And this is why I hope Klay kicks ass for some other team this season.
you mean, shoot a team out of the post-season like Klay has done to the Dubs for the past 2 seasons?
bye Klay
You could be right but max money isn’t always the determining factor for a player who is going to make very good money regardless. There’s being on a team with a chance at winning; I can’t see Klay being happy on a bad team. (Of course we weren’t a contender this year but we can still be competitive.)
There’s also lifestyle. For instance, the main reasons Paul George wanted to play with the Clippers were that he wanted to play with Kawhi and he’s from the L.A. area. He was going to make his money either way. Then again, maybe Klay would like to play in L.A. or Portland (albeit the Blazers aren’t very good), since he has roots there. But Cleveland? Yeah, they’re good but is that where he wants to play the last few years of his career? Permit me to doubt. There’s also how the player feels about management. How pissed is Klay? (We don’t know.)
Here in the Bay Area, he can be with a competitive team, he has a great lifestyle, he has had great fan support, he is playing with friends who understand how to play with him, and if his alleged disappointment with management is not a big deal, maybe that’s worth taking less — if it’s not TOO much less.
The truth is, none of really has a clue what will happen, and we won’t until it happens.
If he expects to start, to finish, and to keep his "any shot is a good shot for me" attitude, then it is a major mistake for the team to try to retain him and for him to come back at any price. If he re-signs with that understanding, I predict it will either mean a very frustrating season for fans of the team as the team struggles to make the play-in and misses the play-offs, or a very frustrating season for fans of the Klay, as he spends major parts of most games pouting on the bench.
This is not a fact, but it is what I expect.
I think a better outcome for all parties would be for him to go someplace else, have his 2 years of occasional heat-check threes going in, while the team tries to rebuild its "Strength in Numbers" identity with the 2 stars who's performance is more consistent and understanding that they are nearing the end of their careers is more real.
I get frustrated with Klay’s gunning too. In fairness, though, he still shot .387 from 3 this past year and .412 the year before. That’s more than occasional heat-check threes.
So Klay wants to play in the Eastern Conference?
And in landlocked Ohio??
Ohio isn’t landlocked. Cleveland is right on Lake Erie, plenty of boating there.
Adding: Also, southern Ohio isn’t landlocked either. The Ohio River is a major navigable waterway that empties into the Mississippi and thence to the Gulf.
You are right that Ohio is not land-locked. But MAN, what a come-down. From sitting on the dock of the bay, sailing under the Golden Gate Bridge, and looking out onto western skies at sunset . . . to navigating the dirtiest "Great" Lake of the 5 and having to take some old canal with 8 locks just to get from there to Lake Ontario (and even more distance to get to the ocean) because boats can't navigate over the Niagara Falls.
I admit, the San Francisco Bay is not some pristine paradise. But its a whole bunch of magnitudes cleaner and aesthetically pleasing than Lake Erie.
Yep. Make sure to tell Klay that. 😊
DRAFT/BRONNY/LBJ:
[Givony] Rich Paul: "There's no deal made that it's guaranteed that if the Lakers draft Bronny at 55, he (LeBron) will resign... We don't need leverage. The Lakers can draft Bronny, and LeBron doesn't resign. LeBron is also not going to Phoenix for a minimum deal. We can squash that now."
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1djph7u/givony_rich_paul_theres_no_deal_made_that_its/
> “LeBron is also not going to Phoenix on a minimum deal”
LeBron to GS on a minimum deal confirmed.
WNBA: Cameron Brink has torn ACL.
Oh no...
Boo
:(
Ugh, that sucks. She seemed so excited about playing 3x3 in the Olympics
Awww dang, that really sucks. It looked bad last night, so not surprised this was an ACL.
Hopefully she makes a full recovery, thankfully medical science has progressed to where this just means a lost year and not a lost career.
Paul George says losing Robert Covington and Nicolas Batum really hurt the Clippers:
“We started the year off hot. Everybody was playing well, there was the energy there. It was kinda like the first time of us all being healthy with Russ now. It was the emergence of what it’s like being with Russ now with myself healthy, Kawhi healthy, and Russ full-time here. It was kind of like a fresh start… Then we traded to get James, and it’s not James’ fault of why we struggled, but the lost part of that was we lost RoCo, we lost Nico… Now you grab James, who is super talented offensively, now myself, Kawhi, we become the dirty guys…”
https://x.com/joeylinn_/status/1803484362069164411
Both would be pretty solid vet min options for the Warriors
I've also wondered this. Some thoughts. Even though below NBA standards, his finishes around the rim did improve (I think 2-3 years ago). This year (maybe last year) he added a couple of drives to the basket to finish while protecting the ball with his body. But why no outside shot? Several possible reasons: 1. He can't make them consistently; 2. He can, but the offensive is to give the ball back to Steph or Klay, so he's not supposed to shoot; 3. His asthma limits his wind, and outside shooting (as many of us know!) is the first thing to go when winded or with tired legs; 4. He hasn't worked hard enough on it, as suggested by others.
Overall I wonder if he needs to loose 10-20 lbs? Is he carrying too much weight for his hips and the rest of his body and that's what led to the decline last year? His rebounding and parts of his defense will suffer with less bulk, but maybe overall a worthwhile or even needed change?
I did a little scouting around and couldn’t find any studies on how much and how often NBA players can improve their 3P% and FT%.
It may be that improvements like Jason Kidd and Brook Lopez are extreme outliers and we can’t say that most players can significantly improve their shot with sheer effort. That’s what my gut tells me. In general, players already work very hard on their shot just to make it to the pros, so they might already be near the limits of their performance. Saying Looney should work harder on his shot might be like saying a batter should work harder on raising their batting average. Easier said than done.
I agree with your main point don’t think hitting is a good comparison. Batters can and do work to improve their batting average but it’s a different thing than shooting from distance. It’s not just more practice or correct technique. They might stop trying to uppercut or pull everything, alter their stance, be more willing to hit to the opposite field, lay off a certain pitch that they can’t handle, etc.
That said, one aspect that would be more comparable to hitting is better shot selection.
Yes, my comp was a quick one without much thought.
But sometimes I feel like “Kevon Looney should learn to shoot 3s” is like “Brandon Crawford should learn to hit home runs”. It’s not just about time and effort. At the highest levels there are personal limits.
Thanks for adding some facts! Steve Nash also became a better shooter with age (until back problems), and I've always wondered if some of improved shooting (in general, not specific to Loon) is maturity to settle in to be as repetitive and simple as possible. Also, while overall athletic skills diminish, muscle memory can improve. Finally, those who practice at game speed (talking about you, Steph) see results that translate into games. I still remember being able to spot great practice shooters at pickup games who, once you sped them up in a game or made them uncomfortable, became average or worse --there's some maturity in practice and mindset that seem to be potential areas to improve in. Though again, not clear that this will work for Loon (or Draymond).
Lakers haven't officially announced the Redick hiring. I bet they want Monty now. Lol.
They always want the shiny object. Then if they get it, they drag it through the mud, team underperforms their unjustified inflated expectations, and Rob Pelinka blames the formerly shiny new object for all that is wrong in Lakerdom. Then they get rid of it. Rinse in dirty water, repeat.
Looney Tunes or what?
Maybe I am crazy but did the Warriors make a mistake with KL?
You all know he was a point guard in high school and a forward at UCLA, so he had skills,right?
Now he is a 6-9 center that is a screening machine and cannot score.
Picture the beloved Mr.Looney if he was a 3 point shooter and how that would change his value and the team. No?
I don’t get why he has not been working hard on it the past several years.
Come on now, he is not spending hours a day practicing screen setting.
I get his injury history but that does not prevent him from hoisting up a few hundred threes everyday, right?
I don't know what Looney or the Warriors have done to try to develop his shooting. It's certainly hard to put much blame on the Warriors. There's really not too much evidence he's a good prospect to become a stretch big. He's a 62% FT shooter for his career, and he doesn't have very good touch.
Even if he did become a decent 3P shooter it's not this magic pill that opens up the offense. He's got a slow release, he's painfully slow, and he's not a great finisher. Teams aren't going to guard him behind the 3P line because they can sag way off and still feel comfortable closing out. Even with a hard close out he's not going to cause any damage off the dribble. The realistic version is him taking like 1-2 3P's a game, and making one every other game. It's definitely not a bad thing, and certainly worth exploring. Maybe even finding out if he can rediscover some lost atheticism. No harm in working to get better.
But realistically, TJD is a much more likely 3P threat.
Good points.
I do disagree about it being important that he being able to do anything off the dribble from the 3 point line.
I really have no idea if he can get with a great shooting coach and actually become something from 3 point land.
Maybe he has tried and it was hopeless for whatever reason.
I was just reaching for the moon and thinking he could shock the world. The Warriors need something unexpected with all of their money and trade possibilities problems.
Hey maybe Dray will be able to shoot in the second half of games next year. That was a crazy stat!
My guess is that the injuries have made it hard for him to get consistent enough in his upward shooting motion. It may not be an issue of practice or of touch.
He needs to work on mid range jumpers and bunnies, not threes.
Don’t you find it weird that any guy who loves playing hoops would let himself degenerate into a non scoring screen setter? Especially with his background?
I would pay a large sum of money if I had any to find out the story.
Reimagine the Warriors with KL and the I only make 3’s in the first half Dray being true floor spacers! The dream!
I don't understand why you think he's not trying ... film is posted every summer of him taking outside shots.
It could be as simple as, the coaches realize he's not a great shooter and have told him if your choice is take a 3 pointer or pass the ball, we want you to pass the ball. Not everyone can shoot, and bigs typically are worse at it.
Maybe you are right.
But now they are going to have to pass on Looney.
I am more optimistic that he could shoot it but we will never know.
He's got 3 rings and money in the bank. I'm guessing that's enough for him. Especially with two bad hips.
I've always said and sometimes posted this. Whenever I say "that guy has very few offensive skills," someone refers me to his high school and college vids. Like that's the point. He's a lousy NBA offensive player and as far as we can see, has not worked on his outside shot, nor on his drive to the hole. For seven years he's been setting screens and playing defense and being a good team player. The ONLY improvement I've seen in his game has been that added elbow hitch in his free throw form. Get in the gym and hoist threes like you mean it.
I agree.
What confuses me is the Warriors have an organization that I in my simplemindedness would think might just see that Looney Tunes being a floor stretcher vs a floor shrinker would be prudent.
Why did KL not take it upon himself? Makes no sense at all.
It is hard to believe that a staff of 50 coaches or whatever they have would not see the importance.
It almost nutty as it sounds, seems like they told him they don’t want him shooting the ball. We have the greatest 3 point shooters in the world so set screens!!!
Again probably all looney tunes over this but really hard to believe KL has no desire or pride in being able to light up the board some.
I want an investigation into the Warriors Looney malpractice!!!
Rebounding and defensive positioning seem to have improved almost every year until this last one.
GP2 opts in to his final season at $9M (no surprise).
😭 Assuming this means he’s likely gone. One of my all-time favorite Warriors.
Will the Warriors keep or trade him? I'd say that the Warriors will trade him. He was injured a lot last season and only played 44 games.
I bet we trade either him or Wiggs. If we trade Wiggs, depending on who we get back, I think it could be helpful to have GP’s defense around (and vice-versa).
Didn't GP2 say after the season ended that he was open to opting out and re-signing at a lower number for more years?
This suggests to me that the Warriors weren't interested in doing that.
His contract at 9M is a more moveable filler contract for a potential trade, so that may have been the reason. Especially if Looney's contract is off the books.
First the Dubs have to get below the second tax apron, which probably means waiving CP3. Otherwise they can’t combine salaries in a trade for a more expensive player so GP2 as filler won’t work.
Yeah, that's what I think this move signifies. Will he still be a Warrior after the draft?
Not the worst result if he leaves. The injuries have been a problem, and it clears some minutes for other players (Gui? incoming big wing?).
I love the guy, and I'm really glad he got one good contract, but I don't think his on-court performance is such that we'll really miss him.
I think they'd miss his on court performance, but (if they do trade him) they decided he wasn't able to be on the court enough for them to justify keeping him around at that price.
A few years ago the Nuggets traded JaMychal Green and a future first for the #30 pick and a couple second rounders to OKC. Green made around what GP2 makes now. I could see the Warriors looking for a salary dump like that during the draft, although the introduction of the second round exception with the new CBA makes those late first rounders less valuable to high salaried teams.
Or maybe they'll try to package him to actually get a player. We know they've been interested in Caruso for awhile and supposedly tried to trade Moody for him at the deadline, maybe they revisit that with GP2 as the mid-sized matching salary.
If he's the First Coming of GPII that's fantastic. If he's the Second Coming, boo.
He's going to be the "Not Coming To Warriors Training Camp" version of GP2 with this move, he's getting traded
Gotta take the money. He won't get a contract that good again...
So… Monty Williams was just fired by the Pistons with five (!) years left on his contract. Should we snap him up for Kerr’s top AC? IIRC, he and Kerr are close…
Is there any evidence he is good at his job? What is that evidence?
Didn't he take Phoenix to the finals -- where they hadn't been in almost 20 years? I would accept that as an indicator that the reputation is deserved.
I’m not sure there’s any hard evidence that *any* coach is good (or bad) at his or her job. Really hard to distill the isolated effects of coaching from the quality of the players.
I wouldn't try to isolate the effects of coaching from the quality of players, but there have been teams with plenty of talent who haven't been to a final. Think of the Harden Rockets or the Durant Nets. I'm ready to give credit to those who got that far -- more so if they can do it repeatedly. That's why even with his shortcomings, I'm always inclined to give Kerr a LOT of leeway.
Agree in general,
For sure. But what just happened in Detroit would really make me hesitate. It’s hard to imagine a team looking much worse relative to potential.
I wonder what his motivation level would be. I have to imagine there is offset clauses in the contract he got from the Pistons so I'm not sure whether he would even get additional money to coach. His wife also had cancer last summer, and part of his hesitance to coach the Pistons was around wanting to be with her. I believe she is cancer-free now, but he might still
He's definitely a great candidate though.
If somebody was going to pay me $65 mil to play on the beach for five years, I'd let them.
He's got like five kids (which I found out when his first wife died in an auto accident). Don't know how many are still in the house, but I'm guessing he takes some time off.
They hired one guy from the Pistons this summer, that's enough imo.
Can't really tell if Williams is even a good coach or just someone who everyone in the league likes. Have similar suspicions about Steve Clifford.
I thought Clifford was just a big dog.
People here always post references or lyrics to songs from back in the day that go over my head, so allow me to return the favor to them lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nZAav393Jg
Hmm. He did keep Wiseman on the bench (barring injuries to Duren, Beef Stew and/or Bagley) so his instincts seem relatively sound? 😜
I am so curious to see what happens with Wiseman this offseason.
I haven't seen convincing evidence that Wiseman is an NBA caliber player. That's not meant in an emotional way. It just seems to be the case. he could develop. But then again, so could a lot G league players. We shall see.
I am not hopeful. Downthread someone asked why Looney doesn't practice jump shots. I wonder the same about Wiseman. It may not have worked, but I will always wonder why he didn't spend all summer making himself into a stretch big. If his defense is never going to be better than C- (which some seem to think would be his ceiling), maybe he should said "Screw that" and spend his time trying to become a lights-out shooter. His form was pretty good, I think he just needed all the reps he missed getting in college. Plus maybe more. That would have been a way to stay on the floor. Teams could move him to forward and scheme around his defensive weakness. But trying to go beyond his ceiling defensively just . . . now he's got no identity except "Guy who couldn't catch (a break)".
I still hope it works out for him. But I am very doubtful it will. I hope my doubts prove wrong.
I think the "Harry Giles rule" gives Wiseman an extra year of two-way eligibility since he missed his second season. Could be wrong, but I think that's how it works and if so I think he'll get a two-way offer from someone.
Hmm. So you're saying Monty made the same mistakes Steve Kerr did. And it turns out that both missed the playoffs. Coincidence? :)
Tom Gores doesn’t seem to have a clue..
Yes please, always good to have a strong different opinion.
What makes you sure it’d be different? They’re both from the Popovich line, no?
Why work when you don't have to? 😅
Because you love it? Because the opportunity to stay in the league may be a limited time offer (cf. Mark Jackson), so you want to do it while you can? Because it is fun, and few people get a chance to do something like this in their lifetime?
Because people gotta take my comment too seriously?
That too. 😁
FA: Siakam re-signs for 4/189 with the Pacers
Pistons have fired Monty Williams.
My favourite date: July 20: USA Basketball Showcase in London: USA vs. South Sudan (3 ET, FOX)
as I will be there :) Looking forward to seeing Steph and KD on the court together again! Last time I saw them live was the 2019 playoff series against Houston...
Also, late to the party I know, but that pod with Perks was epic. Everyone should watch it :)
Cool! I’m just going to miss being around for that one. Have fun.
I’m curious which players are involved with team South Sudan. It’s an amazing story because, even now, almost anyone of Olympic basketball age from that country would have grown up at least partially during their long, awful civil war. And yet quite a number of NBA players have emerged: Luol Deng, Thon Maker, Duop Reath, and others. I believe there’s a major prospect in next year’s draft from there, too, though I’ve forgotten his name… Anyway, a pretty cool event all around.
Yeah, can't wait. I saw one of the 2012 warm-up games (vs GB in Manchester) which was awesome. I remember thinking how KD was just head and shoulders above everyone else on the team and that this young kid from Kentucky looked pretty good!
And yes you are right, South Sudan have Khaman Maluach, a future top pick, playing for them. So that'll provide some intrigue https://www.nba.com/news/beyond-the-hardwood-khaman-maluach
Hi Patrick!!
Hello! I feel like I owe you a reply from the last time I visited, but by the time I got to it, it was like 5 threads ago... hope life is treating you well :)
Haha. At first I read “5 years ago” and was gonna ask you about the cap ramifications of the Durant/DLo sign-and-trade… 😜
Life is pretty good. Hit me up for beers next time you’re in NYC!