Yes Detroit was obliterated by the Raptors, but Wiseman played 24 minutes and led the team in +/- (0). Zero plus/minus … like you don’t exist at all, or are just a vacuum occupying space.
I understand how you can dismiss it. Up 29, the Dubs would be over on the bench high-fiving, throwing the ball into the stands four or five times seeking too-cool-for-school highlight reel plays like its 2016, and so forth. So, its understandable how you can think a lead equates to garbage time. But when the opponent's ballhandler beats his man and heads into the paint, and Wiseman adroitly steps over enough to contest/intimidate while still staying aware of his own man, and stops the ballhandler and forces him to dribble through the paint and exit toward the three-point line--yeah, that's not a sign of garbage time, that's a player showing they're effective. Its a player showing they aren't mailing it in. Dismiss it all you want. Down 29, the Pistons did not relax. And, up 29, the Raptors certainly didn't relax like the Dubs would with that lead. And that's why the Raptors won. And that's why we can't be sure, up 29, the Dubs would have won the same game. So, who's really padding in your so-called "garbage time," the player playing savvy defense while down, or almost every Dubs player who, when up OR down 29, plays for ESPN highlights?
> Zero plus/minus … like you don’t exist at all, or are just a vacuum occupying space.
Wiseman: 15 points in 24 minutes on 6/8 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3reb, 1 assist (but some hockey assists, not counted of course), 1 block, 2tov, 4 fouls (1 was a pretty bad call), with a +/- of zero in a 29 POINT LOSS. He was the 3rd highest scorer, of only 3 in double figures.
For comparison, Bagley was 6pts on 3/4 shooting in 14 minutes, 2reb, 3ast, 0 blocks, 0 tov, 0 fouls, with a +/- of -21.
Several possessions Wiseman was out past the elbow handling the ball--dribble hand-offs, passes to the corner, passes to the weakside backcourt. He was put in positions he NEVER experienced with the Dubs, and he did well. He was in a playmaker role on those possessions.
Defensively, Wiseman did an excellent job. At least three times he intimidated the ballhandler to turn back out of the paint. He also did a nice job pre-switching at times and also played well when in drop coverage when the Raps involved him in PnR.
Having watched the game, and seen the commentary of some, I know who's the zero who doesn't exist at all, just an empty spot in space. It ain't Wiseman.
And who would take him? He is sucking and his contract is a whopper. Trading him now would be one of the all time buy high - sell low moves. No, I think Poole is going to be enjoying DC for a while.
Would take expiring, 2 1st round picks, possible swaps and JK/Moody. No way Warriors do it when they didn't even consider Porzingis at a much lower price.
Really tough loss. Wiggs' game winner would have provoked a lot of joy. Give credit to Chet, though - he was in his shooting motion immediately - a quick foul would probably have been 3 free throws. Biggest complaint - what the heck happened from mid-third quarter through the end of the game? OKC went on a run and there was NOTHING that could have stemmed that tide?
I must say I am losing some optimism for GP2. I love the guy, but it's difficult for him to stay healthy and be a force. He seems prone to injuries and the team doesn't want to make him into a shooter. Is it because he is usually injured? I can't figure where he belongs on this team.
It's not just about not making him a shooter. He's not an offensive player to any significant degree. He can manage a back cut or a lob, but it's pretty surprising that he's made it in the NBA as a guard who can't create, doesn't dribble much, doesn't pass much. I love his on ball and overall defense, who wouldn't, but he's a liability on offense and I think that fans want to root for him and overlook the fact that he has glaring weaknesses. Injuries? I don't know that he's prone to them. He had five years in the league without them.
He's a defensive specialist. I think he has his uses. I sure as hell would have loved to have him in for the last play of the OKC game.
His relative weakness on the offensive side of the ball is being magnified, because the rest of our players are also scuffling at shooting.
If our shooters were shooting well, there would be more space for his cutting game, and he wouldn't be as reliant on his 3 ball (which I still don't really believe in, TBH).
To me it’s a question not of “is he good” but “is he a better or worse choice to put in overall than someone else?” In spots such as “we need someone on DeAaron Fox,” he might be. But overall Moody just seems to have fairly close defensive potential and much much more offense.
This makes me think of a proposed trade on ESPN a couple of years ago: Sabonis for Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody. Would you have made the trade then, with the benefit of hindsight now?
That's the kind of desperation people were spewing during training camp of the 2021-22 year. I kept counseling patience. Then they won the title. Crickets. No "Wow, was IIIIII mistaken!" Then, two months later, right back with the crazy trade proposals. . . . It never seems to stop.
I make the Sabonis - Haliburton trade every day of the week if I'm Sacramento, with Fox in the backcourt. I pick Haliburton instead of Wiseman every day of the year, and at this point of their career, I pick Sabonis over Draymond Green every single day remaining in my life
I've been reading all the replies to this, and it's making me wonder: Just how good do folks consider Haliburton to be? Seems like most people think he's better in a vacuum than Sabonis, but what about vs Fox?
(My own opinion is that he's better than either Fox or Sabonis, though I'm somewhat persuaded by the argument that neither guard would have blossomed quite like this while sharing a backcourt.)
Haliburton seems really, really good. Stats suggest he's a top-20, maybe top-10 player in the league already. Dark horse for MVP this season. IMO he doesn't really deserve MVP consideration yet but it's not crazy that he's on the fringes of that conversation.
Fox is good, really blossoming under Mike Brown's coaching, but I think he's somewhere in the range of 20-40th best player in the league if not lower: worse than most teams' best guy, better than most teams' second best.
It's more that Fox looks better than I ever expected. That team really doesn't work without Fox, while idk if that's true for Sabonis (at least I haven't seen them play without him much)
The results they have now are a great offense, a mediocre-to-poor defense, and zero playoff series wins.
I’d argue Haliburton is the better and less game-plannable player right now. I like Sabonis a lot, but I’d be surprised if there’s a GM in the league who would take him over Hali, given the choice (and that includes teams with elite PGs like Dallas and GS). I could be wrong, tho…
Mmm they are both point guards. They both beed the ball in their hands to be at their Best. I really doubt together they Will put the same numbers. Haliburton is not a great defensive player..one of them would have to guard the other team Best guard..that takes a tool
Grizzlies-Celtics and Jazz-Suns are surprisingly close games; Thunder is blowing out the Blazers; Rockets are leading against the Lakers by several points.
Dallas played last night and lost to the Bucks in Milwaukee. Looks like fatigue has gotten the better of them, as they are about to lose a lot to the Kings.
Watching some non NBA games, Sea Dubs are cooking playing all the young guys, maybe we have the wrong Kerr? Great chase down block by Garuba in the third quarter. I'll check if that makes a YouTube highlight. He looked a lot better today, gobbling up rebounds and making 1 foot shots and bobbling a few passes in the lane - very Loon- like outing.
Also, saw the end of Stanford-Duke, fun game. Cam Brink has 72 free throws without a miss - hasn't missed since Feb. Hey Steph, can you ask your god sister to have a chat with Wiggs? Maybe give him a pointer or two? The record is 75, which she can probably get next game if it keeps going.
We'd be lucky to see Garuba on our bench this season. I think he will benefit being in SC playing with the future Dubs, learning the system. Without plugging into the system, there is little chance anyone plays for Kerr.
Lakers barely beat the Rockets 105-104. Lakers are now 8-6 and 6-1 at home, while the Rockets fall to 6-5 and are 0-4 on the road.
So close to OT…
I'm just glad it wasn't a blow out with all bench players in the fourth
Yea I was hoping!
As for the minutes, VanVleet and Brooks each played 40+ minutes, while the other Rockets starters played for 31-32 minutes.
Yes Detroit was obliterated by the Raptors, but Wiseman played 24 minutes and led the team in +/- (0). Zero plus/minus … like you don’t exist at all, or are just a vacuum occupying space.
He pulled a Mychal Mulder and scored a lot in garbage time. Definition of empty stats.
I understand how you can dismiss it. Up 29, the Dubs would be over on the bench high-fiving, throwing the ball into the stands four or five times seeking too-cool-for-school highlight reel plays like its 2016, and so forth. So, its understandable how you can think a lead equates to garbage time. But when the opponent's ballhandler beats his man and heads into the paint, and Wiseman adroitly steps over enough to contest/intimidate while still staying aware of his own man, and stops the ballhandler and forces him to dribble through the paint and exit toward the three-point line--yeah, that's not a sign of garbage time, that's a player showing they're effective. Its a player showing they aren't mailing it in. Dismiss it all you want. Down 29, the Pistons did not relax. And, up 29, the Raptors certainly didn't relax like the Dubs would with that lead. And that's why the Raptors won. And that's why we can't be sure, up 29, the Dubs would have won the same game. So, who's really padding in your so-called "garbage time," the player playing savvy defense while down, or almost every Dubs player who, when up OR down 29, plays for ESPN highlights?
> Zero plus/minus … like you don’t exist at all, or are just a vacuum occupying space.
Wiseman: 15 points in 24 minutes on 6/8 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3reb, 1 assist (but some hockey assists, not counted of course), 1 block, 2tov, 4 fouls (1 was a pretty bad call), with a +/- of zero in a 29 POINT LOSS. He was the 3rd highest scorer, of only 3 in double figures.
For comparison, Bagley was 6pts on 3/4 shooting in 14 minutes, 2reb, 3ast, 0 blocks, 0 tov, 0 fouls, with a +/- of -21.
Several possessions Wiseman was out past the elbow handling the ball--dribble hand-offs, passes to the corner, passes to the weakside backcourt. He was put in positions he NEVER experienced with the Dubs, and he did well. He was in a playmaker role on those possessions.
Defensively, Wiseman did an excellent job. At least three times he intimidated the ballhandler to turn back out of the paint. He also did a nice job pre-switching at times and also played well when in drop coverage when the Raps involved him in PnR.
Having watched the game, and seen the commentary of some, I know who's the zero who doesn't exist at all, just an empty spot in space. It ain't Wiseman.
Good news: we get Houston tomorrow on the second night of a road back to back. Hopefully they’ll get a couple of overtimes with LA tonight!
Damn. JP already on the chopping block in Washington? Yikes.
And who would take him? He is sucking and his contract is a whopper. Trading him now would be one of the all time buy high - sell low moves. No, I think Poole is going to be enjoying DC for a while.
Take him back if they include their 1st round pick
For what? Klay?
Nah DC basketball media just has literally nothing to talk about and JP is the easiest way to get clicks.
Can also be FO folks hedging and saying what makes them look smarter in the moment.
I don't remember Dillon Brooks being this good at shooting.
You haven't been observant. He is a force.
A force? A career 34.5% from 3pt land is barely knocking at the door at league average lol
Outstanding defensive player and has a career 14ppg. I'll take it.
Hard to remember a thing that didn’t exist
You know that is not true.
If only there was a way we could get Markkanen from the Jazz.... I don't think Warriors have assets to pull off a trade.
You could trade Kuminga and CP for Markannen and Olynik. Not sure it would be wise.
Markannen would be awesome but, excluding Curry, is there anyone on the roster that the Jazz would seriously consider in return?
Nope. Opposing GMs see the same thing we as fans see except theyre not as quick to want to pull the trigger lol
Would take expiring, 2 1st round picks, possible swaps and JK/Moody. No way Warriors do it when they didn't even consider Porzingis at a much lower price.
for who?
No thanks. I'm in the "no more Kelly O. camp"
I never wanted to root for CP3, but I really, really, *really* don't want to ever root for Olynyk.
Why? He played well in the FIFA cup.
Really tough loss. Wiggs' game winner would have provoked a lot of joy. Give credit to Chet, though - he was in his shooting motion immediately - a quick foul would probably have been 3 free throws. Biggest complaint - what the heck happened from mid-third quarter through the end of the game? OKC went on a run and there was NOTHING that could have stemmed that tide?
GPII might have helped...
I must say I am losing some optimism for GP2. I love the guy, but it's difficult for him to stay healthy and be a force. He seems prone to injuries and the team doesn't want to make him into a shooter. Is it because he is usually injured? I can't figure where he belongs on this team.
It's not just about not making him a shooter. He's not an offensive player to any significant degree. He can manage a back cut or a lob, but it's pretty surprising that he's made it in the NBA as a guard who can't create, doesn't dribble much, doesn't pass much. I love his on ball and overall defense, who wouldn't, but he's a liability on offense and I think that fans want to root for him and overlook the fact that he has glaring weaknesses. Injuries? I don't know that he's prone to them. He had five years in the league without them.
He's a defensive specialist. I think he has his uses. I sure as hell would have loved to have him in for the last play of the OKC game.
His relative weakness on the offensive side of the ball is being magnified, because the rest of our players are also scuffling at shooting.
If our shooters were shooting well, there would be more space for his cutting game, and he wouldn't be as reliant on his 3 ball (which I still don't really believe in, TBH).
To me it’s a question not of “is he good” but “is he a better or worse choice to put in overall than someone else?” In spots such as “we need someone on DeAaron Fox,” he might be. But overall Moody just seems to have fairly close defensive potential and much much more offense.
Without context, I would agree with you. But, there are matchups where I think GPII is the better choice ... Sac is one of those.
Moody is just not quick enough to keep up with Fox. GPII (mostly) is. And, Sac's lack of rim protection makes GPII's rim-running more effective.
All in all, have we made much ado about nothing? Was it absurd to bring him back to the team? Was this another Myers mishap?
>All in all, have we made much ado about nothing?
No.
>Was it absurd to bring him back to the team?
Yes, because he never should have been allowed to leave in the first place.
>Was this another Myers mishap?
No. If it were a mishap it would not be "another," it would be his first.
phoenix with his issues too...strugglin to beat the jazz....will beal ever be available and at full strenght?
Officials overturn the call. Suns beat the Jazz 140-137 in double OT.
Must be nice to be on the right side of a critical successful challenge
Refs do like KD and the suns - I thought he clearly contacted the arm of the shooter
Phoenix having their own issues trying to put away a game up three.
Double OT in Utah
Celtics barely beat the Grizzlies. Jazz-Suns heading to OT.
sabonis and fox destroying the mavs in dallas...they are 8-4 now. They are looking legit once again...
That sabonix trade sure looks good
This makes me think of a proposed trade on ESPN a couple of years ago: Sabonis for Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody. Would you have made the trade then, with the benefit of hindsight now?
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/32763408/five-big-trades-shake-nba-playoff-picture?fbclid=IwAR2GO1juDzrHp-hiTeqL80pKszQLlf73lt89Aahf1a68oQxLnyJGfeQnllI
That's the kind of desperation people were spewing during training camp of the 2021-22 year. I kept counseling patience. Then they won the title. Crickets. No "Wow, was IIIIII mistaken!" Then, two months later, right back with the crazy trade proposals. . . . It never seems to stop.
I make the Sabonis - Haliburton trade every day of the week if I'm Sacramento, with Fox in the backcourt. I pick Haliburton instead of Wiseman every day of the year, and at this point of their career, I pick Sabonis over Draymond Green every single day remaining in my life
I've been reading all the replies to this, and it's making me wonder: Just how good do folks consider Haliburton to be? Seems like most people think he's better in a vacuum than Sabonis, but what about vs Fox?
(My own opinion is that he's better than either Fox or Sabonis, though I'm somewhat persuaded by the argument that neither guard would have blossomed quite like this while sharing a backcourt.)
Haliburton seems really, really good. Stats suggest he's a top-20, maybe top-10 player in the league already. Dark horse for MVP this season. IMO he doesn't really deserve MVP consideration yet but it's not crazy that he's on the fringes of that conversation.
Fox is good, really blossoming under Mike Brown's coaching, but I think he's somewhere in the range of 20-40th best player in the league if not lower: worse than most teams' best guy, better than most teams' second best.
Fox is better than Haliburton by miles now. In the future who can answer?
It's more that Fox looks better than I ever expected. That team really doesn't work without Fox, while idk if that's true for Sabonis (at least I haven't seen them play without him much)
at the time of the trade fox wasnt playing great...and they bet on him instead of hali.
That was a big call too
I think they’d be an incredible pairing, personally.
Still think trading Haliburton was a mistake, as good a player as Sabonis is. Let’s check in in 3-4 years and see how the trade looks.
I don't agree. In 3-4 years of playoff for Sacramento, after 26 years in the lottery, this will be a great trade for the Kings front office
They would not be the team they are without Sabonis. We don't need to wait to understand this. Both teams benefitted tremendously.
Both teams benefited, for sure. I’m saying the Pacers got the significantly better (and younger) player, so benefited more.
but they wanted results now, not in 3-4 years.
Agree 100%
The results they have now are a great offense, a mediocre-to-poor defense, and zero playoff series wins.
I’d argue Haliburton is the better and less game-plannable player right now. I like Sabonis a lot, but I’d be surprised if there’s a GM in the league who would take him over Hali, given the choice (and that includes teams with elite PGs like Dallas and GS). I could be wrong, tho…
Mmm they are both point guards. They both beed the ball in their hands to be at their Best. I really doubt together they Will put the same numbers. Haliburton is not a great defensive player..one of them would have to guard the other team Best guard..that takes a tool
They broke the playoff drought. That was worth a lot to Vivek, all I understand it. He hated having the record for futility.
Grizzlies-Celtics and Jazz-Suns are surprisingly close games; Thunder is blowing out the Blazers; Rockets are leading against the Lakers by several points.
Dallas played last night and lost to the Bucks in Milwaukee. Looks like fatigue has gotten the better of them, as they are about to lose a lot to the Kings.
All I ask is for Warriors to have a better record than the Mavs at the of of this season.
"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling."
And also beat them in the 1st round. Anything else is bonus for me.
Are you Don Nelson?
Watching some non NBA games, Sea Dubs are cooking playing all the young guys, maybe we have the wrong Kerr? Great chase down block by Garuba in the third quarter. I'll check if that makes a YouTube highlight. He looked a lot better today, gobbling up rebounds and making 1 foot shots and bobbling a few passes in the lane - very Loon- like outing.
Also, saw the end of Stanford-Duke, fun game. Cam Brink has 72 free throws without a miss - hasn't missed since Feb. Hey Steph, can you ask your god sister to have a chat with Wiggs? Maybe give him a pointer or two? The record is 75, which she can probably get next game if it keeps going.
We'd be lucky to see Garuba on our bench this season. I think he will benefit being in SC playing with the future Dubs, learning the system. Without plugging into the system, there is little chance anyone plays for Kerr.