Yo, Wise was great last night. Some early fouls, but playing that well against Nurk is real enough, even though no Dame or anybody tough to get switched onto. Seems like he’s getting more comfortable by the game.
Agree - he's starting to show signs of knowing what he's doing out there. Not "Looney-knowing-what-he's-doing", but definitely a step up from what we've seen in the past.
He also looked pretty good in the post on offense.
Wiseman switched on Dame is never going to be a good matchup. I thought he looked great with Nurk's physicality, and the difference when other Warriors were playing him and were getting physically outmatched was notable. Haven't seen that from Wiseman before that I recall. Really exciting stuff.
Oct 12, 2022·edited Oct 12, 2022Liked by punk basketball
Wrote this on another board where the fans seemed to be laboring under the impression that the Dray decision was taken with no input from Poole:
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Per Kerr, Poole was the ultimate arbiter. He and Dray apparently got together and worked things out. Kerr said yesterday that the decision was going to be left to the players, which we can presume means principally JP with input from the elder statesman: Steph, Looney, Iguodala.
Loon in particular has apparently stepped up big in the crisis, being both super close with JP (who idolized him as a fellow Milwaukee prep stud, three years his senior) and an official member of the OG. Even with Dray returning, I think he’s effectively stepped into Dray’s role among the team’s core emotional leaders, with Steph and Andre. While he presumably signed off on Dray’s return, he also said it’s gonna take time for him to win back the players’ trust.
Personally: while I’m still pissed at Dray to the point where I basically want him gone (if not right now, at a date TBD, like Tommy in Goodfellas) I have no issue with the Warriors’ process of leaving it up to the players. And either way, I don’t think an arbitrary X game suspension coming down from on high (as happened with the Dray-KD dustup) really changes anything. Dray lost the respect he had among his teammates — who to a man rushed to JP’s side, notwithstanding the initial, sleazy Haynes report to the contrary — and among NBA players in general; and I don’t think he’s ever gonna win it back completely. Let him stew in that knowledge while he’s yapping at the refs with his teammates rolling their eyes behind him, or while he’s trying to negotiate his extension with his leverage lost.
In a lot of ways, Draymond reminds me of an alcoholic who won't address his problem, and things keep going down downhill. Has a crisis, apologizes for it, but the underlying problem is never addressed, and the same thing keeps happening over and over again.
I am not saying Dray is an alcoholic, just that his behavior reminds me of one.
I would love to see Draymond address whatever demons he is fighting. Remember Chris Mullins years ago? Great player, but kind of an asshole before he got sober, so sort of similar story but with a great ending. Same could happen for Draymond, if he would address his situation with honesty. I really like Draymond, and would love to see his story have a great ending. But so far, he's not said what he was dealing with the day he punched out JP, and his press conference seemed like "same old Dray excuses" rather than someone who really wants to change.
I have a lot of compassion for Draymond, but he's got a problem, and if he papers it over again, same thing's going to keep happening - over and over and over again.
An X game suspension (I was favoring 10) is just a way to hit Green in the pocketbook, which is the thing he understands best. I don't have a ton of faith that all of these apologies matter to him. He's done it so many times. But if millions were gone, he'd remember that.
He was fined, though, albeit we don't know how much. If losing money teaches the lesson, it's possible that happened unless it was a small fine. A suspension would make sense if the team didn't want him around for awhile longer or if just not being allowed to play were considered a form of punishment or if it enabled a much larger financial penalty. (I don't know if there are limits on fines and if so what they are.) Apparently his teammates did not want him suspended.
My understanding is that the maximum fine is relatively small -- $50k for a guy who has $53M remaining on his contract. That's less than a tenth of 1%). Not much of a deterrent, if that's the case.
On NBA tv last night after the game, Jared Greenberg said the max the team could fine him would be $50K - which is nothing to someone making millions. Both he & Greg Anthony were shocked there was no suspension. And I'm sure many others felt the same.
I feel the lack of discipline is a bit ominous - evidence that Draymond has used up all his free passes. Sometimes no real action means that management is no longer interested in working with you to fix issues or take responsibility for them, and would rather know early whether the issues are fixed or to cut their losses. The implications to me of GS' not imposing suspensions is that either Draymond demonstrates he can adjust on his own, and be productive, or he's gone. And I would have to feel there's some sort of pretty short internal timeline in GS management on evaluating how Draymond fits back in. It also permits GS to effectively say goodbye in good form with ring night if that's what it comes to. I would not be at all surprised, depending on locker room and performance outcomes, to see Draymond traded a month from now.
I don't see how that's possible. But maybe it's recency bias for me.
I'm never going to forget it. I've so enjoyed watching this guy play. But just like the episodes with Kerr, LeBron, and Durant, it's a reminder of what a two-edged sword the guy has always been. I remember how I felt the first time I heard someone compare him to Rodman, and I really thought that was overdone. Those people were more insightful than I ever would have guessed.
> Dray lost the respect he had among his teammates — who to a man rushed to JP’s side, notwithstanding the initial, sleazy Haynes report to the contrary — and among NBA players in general; and I don’t think he’s ever gonna win it back completely.
Not only that but he also probably lost significant money on his next contract and perhaps his chance to close out his career with the team he built. There are definitely consequences for him beyond those levied by the team.
In some ways the best outcome from the team perspective ... Poole and Draymond try to work it out. If not, move Draymond at the trade deadline for whatever they can get. If they do make it work, go for the chip and just let his contract play out.
I can't see Draymond being regarded as a team leader again. But, I never played team sports ... maybe these internal fights just aren't as big a deal as I think they should be.
Best outcome is a JP3 extension by the weekend. Dubs make it clear to all who they stand behind. Dray plays out the 2 years, both of which are chips :)
Rollins is further along defensively than one might have expected, coming from a mid-major school and without being cleared to play until September. He doesn't mess up much on-ball or off-ball, and his length really plays. I'm not sure he's really gambled at all, but still gotten something like 5+ deflections + steals this game, including a couple deflections with his feet to stop passes to otherwise open rollers. I think he's still feeling things out on offense, but things somehow seem to run smoothly when he's handling the ball. That's a good sign. He also mixes it up in the paint a bit when it comes to rebounds.
I still like Quinones. He can shoot, he's solid on defense for a rookie, has made some nice passes within the flow of the offense, and he likes to gamble a bit off-ball but he's done a pretty decent job of not getting burned when he does. Between the 3-and-D skillset, his seemingly joyous locker room presence, and maybe a little more room to grow in terms of playmaking if things break right, I think they should absolutely keep him. But we'll see.
Anthony Lamb and Pat Spencer are really, really intriguing. I continue to be really hesitant about Lamb because of the reports that he faced sexual assault allegations while in college (I haven't looked it up at all because I'm not sure I want to know more yet), and knowing very very well how borderline impossible it is for any alleged perpetrator to face any consequences for sexual assault on campus, the fact that he didn't seem to face legal charges, or suspensions or whatnot from the university, doesn't necessarily mean much. He's played phenomenally well though - really really good on defense, on the boards, on offense while playing within the system, et cetera. He hit a couple 3's as well. If he plays like that in camp consistently as well as on the court in preseason games, I'm not sure if they can justify not keeping him somehow.
Spencer is great. I like his shot, his defense, how well he fits within the offensive system and keeps the ball moving crisply. The finishing inside was a surprise - not that he had bounce, I knew that, but he hit a lot of reverse layups and the like with confidence. No finishing adventures, so to speak. If it comes down to him and Lamb, I think they might have to choose Lamb given what he brings defensively, but I hope they're able to keep Spencer in Santa Cruz. I think if they do we'll see him playing for the Dubs at some point during the season to fill out minutes during the dog days of the season.
He's not the best among the G-leaguers/2-ways, but his defense seems pretty solid, he's a big! guard, and he's trying to what they want (pass a bit more). Unfortunately, I don't think he's shown enough of a jump shot to stick. Too bad. I think there's a chance he gets enough better to get to an NBA roster (probably for someone else).
Regarding the interview to Kerr yesterday after the match with Portland, when he communicated the decisions of Dubs FO and Team, about D. matter, I have only two or three things to say:
- If they weren't capable of doing what is impossible to me (i.e. rebuilding a good vibe where it was destroyed), I wouldn't be spending every odd night awake to watch them.
- I will never forget the image of JP that after the incident stays one hour more in the gym to work on his shooting. You will be Jordan Poole "Splashes in the dark" to me from now on.
- Draymond, look at these kids. You want to promise yourself to catch the bullet for them, because they are already strong, one day not far away they will be capable to raze the NBA, and they will need true leaders.
I brought my ice cream game up to playoff level tonight. Tonight's starters & end of the bench guys deserved it for the effort they gave tonight. Lots of good things tonight on the offense.
Uh, a suspension is not canceling anyone. It's an attempt to /help/ Green develop into a mature adult and reliable teammate. Discipline is love. The lack of it just enables bad behavior and gives him license to let his worst instincts rule.
But whatever. The team has elected NOT to discipline him. Maybe they'll get lucky. But I don't think they're doing Draymond any favors with this decision. YMMV.
If you mean the tendency towards all-or-nothing and unforgiving reactions, I can kind of see your sentiment.
However, that is NOT the primary way “cancel culture” the phrase is used, which in practice is very value-asymmetric, and used by people who are more politically conservative who have no qualms cancelling people for conservative reasons (eg see Florida’s “don’t say gay” bill, or an unsettling intra-Republican party warfare to cancel people who dont buy into election conspiracies). Ie in public discourse, people who complain about cancel culture are usually more upset about liberal-leaning values than they are about being unforgiving and silencing alternative views in a general way.
You can use words however you want, but be wary that it might not be conveying what you think you’re conveying. And before you call this attention to language a form of cancel culture… it’s more about clear communication.
I think I agree with the overall sentiment (people have been overreacting on the negative side toward Green), but I feel uneasy with the blame being placed on "cancel culture."
- Draymond did something bad. We, and everyone involved with the Warriors, wishes he didn't do it. I don't think this point is particularly debatable. However, how bad the action was can be debated. Some seem to be assuming this is PTSD-level triggering event for Poole -- while that is a possible outcome, and would be no fault to Poole, I doubt this type of incident normally has PTSD ramifications. I am not an expert on this matter though -- but the idea that this is not the first or last fight either has been involved in feels accurate. I also personally don't like to excessively judge people in situations I have not been in. I've never come close to punching anyone in anger, however I have gotten angry enough that I lost control of my reasonable sensibilities temporarily. I would be surprised if others have not been in a similar situation. If I were in a physical environment, as a basketball court is, I can't confidently say what the outcome would have been. Like many of us, who in some respects idolize and look up to these players, I wish in this moment Draymond had lived up to my belief he is a better person than I am. But, if he faltered, and exhibited the same flaws I may have, it is disappointing but I am not going to overly judge him for it.
- the term "cancel culture" has become quite politically loaded, and I can't say that I agree with its connotations. People have always been "cancelled." While there are countless in history, a very clear and modern example is Muhammad Ali, who was quite literally cancelled from competing for four years in his prime years (a little bit more than then 1 to 40 game suspensions suggested here for Green), likely based on his race and religious beliefs. I think the information/internet age has made a lot more things readily available, which triggers more outrage when bad deeds are uncovered. But it is hard for me to reconcile the recent attacks on "cancel culture" as anything other than "we are upset that whites are now being cancelled". While perhaps not applicable to this particular case with Draymond Green, it definitely has bothered me that minorities have always been "cancelled" by society, and this only has seemed to become some terrible leftist machination when white people also started to become cancelled.
And let’s be crystal clear about who is getting upset about cancel culture:
The people getting upset about cancel culture are almost uniformly people expousing hateful and hurtful extremist conservative right wing ideology (or ideas associated with extremist conservative right wing ideology) who are upset that people in society aren’t letting them get away with openly being assholes anymore. They want people to laugh at their garbage when they call it all a joke, and are getting angry that people aren’t staying silent or laughing with them anymore.
"The people getting upset about cancel culture are almost uniformly people expousing hateful and hurtful extremist conservative right wing ideology" Well wait a minute. Yes, the far right has made "cancel culture" into a perjorative buzzword and throws the term around to, essentially, cancel people rather than engaging in a real discussion. I most certainly won't defend that (or them). But many people in the center and moderate left feel that canceling someone outright for a wrong action can be an arrogant and self-righteous overreaction, and it stifles free speech by those who do not necessarily agree with the majority group's norms and understanding. Rather than canceling someone, consider that it might be better to look for ways of bringing that person into balance and harmony.
Yes. And there's nothing more ironic and smug than accusing people of "cancel culture" as a means of silencing opinions you don't necessarily agree with, as the OP has done here.
OP = "Original Poster," referring to whoever started a thread/post. Here, thesarunas is apparently referring to Tonkal, who started the discussion of cancel culture.
When he gets minutes without the Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Draymond guys playing, he has scored in bunches. In Summer League, G-League, preseason, even in the actual NBA.
It does seem like an issue of trying to play his role too well alongside the starters, although I'd rather have that than the opposite.
How much playing time do you think Jerome will get? DDV seems to have misplaced his shot but he does continue to terrorize on the boards, assisting, and disrupting offences. He was everywhere tonight. Jerome might get a few minutes in garbage time unless there are some yet to be revealed skills in his set. The bench is already deep. Gonna be a dogfight and most will wind up in SC.
Not a huge fan of Jerome yet, I've watched too many backup PGs like Wanamaker who cannot beat their man off the dribble. DDV is a lot more to my liking.
Well, if Jordan Poole and the players had a strong say in deciding Draymond’s punishment and are at peace with it, as was reported, then I’m okay with it.
I agree, and I think Mycroft has a good point above: everybody on the team has decided Draymond gets another chance, but only one more. As Sleepy said, he has trashed his leadership and leverage, so he has every incentive to both clean up his act and maximize his performance on the floor, and he will have to do both to retire a Dub.
That's where I am as well. It is a team isolated issue so a team oriented solution seems appropriate. If they are ready to move on so should we be. There's no reason any fan should care about this situation more than the actual team. Also, if Draymond can somehow channel all of this into his play, we're in for one heck of a season.
I presume that you are saying that League will be better equipped in deciding the right level of punishment. And the idea there being to force Dray to rehabilitate (so to say).
Do you think you get that by say him getting suspended for 5 games? IMHO, not only that won't work given how Dray is but also healing from with in (which includes player's only meetings) will not be as effective.
In my opinion, he will be more beholden to what now he must have promised to the players.
Dubs should have suspended him for opening night in my opinion, but if that leads to most of his teammates being unhappy, what would have been the point?
In Loon (looks like he played a big role in getting all sorted out), Steph, Steve, Bob and even Dray, I trust.
An opening game suspension would have served the purpose of letting players know that there's a limit, a line you can't cross without consequences, no matter how big you are. Not that it matters now.
Yes, I thought the league would have something to say about events like this. Some kind of suspension wasn't unreasonable, imo. But I'm not going to get involved in putting a 'price' on Dray's punishment. Assault is taken seriously in courts. I didn't expect that Poole would press charges but I don't think it would be bad idea for the NBA to step in when things like this occur.
> total self interest is at work within the Warrior organization
Are you saying the players have their own interests in mind? And, instead, they should've subject themselves to the judgement of a higher authority instead?
If my negligent neighbor damages my window and we work out something to help me repair it. Are you saying I should file a police report for vandalism instead?
Which is hilarious, because ultimately the only people affected by that fight (no matter how hard people want to claim or wish otherwise) are the players on the roster and the members of the Warriors organization.
This didn’t affect the NBA as a league, or any of its franchises, in any way. Hell, if that leaker hadn’t put the video out, no one would have known about how it went down and people would have stopped talking about this incident sometime Sunday night.
The only people who this thing affected was the players and the organization. Only the players and the organization should decide what the punishment and resolution should be. Unless the process of internal resolution is suspected to involve criminal acts (like coercing Poole or his supportive teammates to downplay it or not speak out if needed, or other more nefarious acts like extortions/threats/etc.), there is no need for anyone else to get involved.
But if Draymond knows the punishment is chosen by Poole, or by the FO, those people might not pick a punishment they really want, because they don't want Draymond to know they want that. If I'm forced to pick a punishment for my neighbor, and they know I get to pick it, I'll pick no punishment in fear of damaging the relationship. But if the police have a standard punishment I could say, "sorry neighbor I wish they didn't punish you so much," but secretly be happy they got punished, without needing to be the bad guy. I'm sure Poole would prefer the league play the bad guy, and pretend he is cool with whatever.
For me, last years chip was unexpected (kudos to some of you who had this pegged early). Me personally I don’t see any young cat on this roster who screams the next Curry or Draymond but some nice complementary pieces. I mention this because while last year was a pleasant Surprise I desperately want the chip this year. I just feel that Klay and drays contract situation gonna loom heavy over the team and the young guys are gonna be up for extensions. I don’t think we’re keeping everyone together. Just can’t pay them so I’m ok with kicking the can on the whole Draymond situation this year. Just has the feels of a special season prior to the punch. This is how I felt in 15-16.
Winning the chip the previous season unlocked something within the team in 15-16 and led to a historic season (we'll ignore what happened in the finals :). This season feels the same, it felt like something special was brewing and I'm optimistic that's still the case.
The team has made a decision based on self interest rather than the ultimate interest in Green's mental health. What could we really expect? It reminds of many police incidents of brutality that get marginalized and not really dealt with. Society needs to change but it begins with individuals.
I was really looking forward to seeing JMG start in place of Draymond. He had a great game and shows what he is really capable of. Very pleased with the game today. Great showing by the bench. Lots of hustle and playmaking.
Are you seriously comparing a fight between two grown men at a practice to police brutality and the unjust, morally bankrupt (if not downright evil) failings of members of the justice system in this country?
That’s a ridiculous low, Bum. You really lived up to the last three letters of your name with that sort of brainlessly hyperbolic and uncalled for statement.
People have and do actually die because of, and in the name of stopping, abusive corruption from people in the justice system. Nothing about two millionaires fighting on a basketball court comes anywhere near that.
If you try harder, you might connect the dots. If you can't, then the status quo of the general mindset is at work. It's not up to me to convince or defend anyone, but I will speak up when events don't make sense to me.
I did enjoy the game very much and I'm happy that we'll see Draymond play very soon, even though I don't agree with how their process evaluates things.
It seems unnecessarily hyperbolic to compare this incident with something as serious as police brutality which has claimed the lives of countless innocent civilians, some of them children, and grossly/disproportionately targeting people of color. I understand you wanted a harsher punishment but making this kind of comparison helps no one.
Even for Basketbum, comparing a fight at an NBA practice to freakin police brutality and moral corruption inside the justice system is a brand new low. One I didn’t think even Basketbum’s hot take infused mind was capable of.
Violence at any level is not condoned in my eyes. No amount of rhetoric makes it acceptable. America is a very violent country and this needs to be addressed no matter where it occurs.
There is a big, big difference in proportionality and scale of the two kinds of violence you are equating here. They are incomparable, and it has nothing to do with rhetoric. by putting them on the same plane you are trivializing the lives that have been ended by police brutality. That's not cool.
Explain to me how it's my judgement that is ill placed rather than your attempt to equate an athlete punching a teammate with the state-sanctioned and taxpayer-funded murder of innocent people.
You might not agree with my opinions, and that is fine. But everything is related to how you view the world and yourself. It's a big topic and this is not the place for a discussion of this.
You're not wrong about that stretch of fouling. I just enjoyed the hell out of watching our young guys actually run an offense and not wanting to turn away in horror.
In cases you missed it, here’s the clip Kerr talking about Looney. I can’t recall hearing him give anyone higher praise: https://twitter.com/nbcswarriors/status/1580066614677995520?s=21&t=bI32jaStrD1IKPZSp0nP9w
That was a fantastic piece of his comments last night.
Hoops Tonight on Dray/Poole, Warriors/Lakers, and more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuZSJkzK6Dg
First time I've watched him. I was expecting to not be impressed. But I was.
Yo, Wise was great last night. Some early fouls, but playing that well against Nurk is real enough, even though no Dame or anybody tough to get switched onto. Seems like he’s getting more comfortable by the game.
Agree - he's starting to show signs of knowing what he's doing out there. Not "Looney-knowing-what-he's-doing", but definitely a step up from what we've seen in the past.
He also looked pretty good in the post on offense.
It took Loon 3-5 years to begin being Loon.
Wiseman switched on Dame is never going to be a good matchup. I thought he looked great with Nurk's physicality, and the difference when other Warriors were playing him and were getting physically outmatched was notable. Haven't seen that from Wiseman before that I recall. Really exciting stuff.
Wrote this on another board where the fans seemed to be laboring under the impression that the Dray decision was taken with no input from Poole:
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Per Kerr, Poole was the ultimate arbiter. He and Dray apparently got together and worked things out. Kerr said yesterday that the decision was going to be left to the players, which we can presume means principally JP with input from the elder statesman: Steph, Looney, Iguodala.
Loon in particular has apparently stepped up big in the crisis, being both super close with JP (who idolized him as a fellow Milwaukee prep stud, three years his senior) and an official member of the OG. Even with Dray returning, I think he’s effectively stepped into Dray’s role among the team’s core emotional leaders, with Steph and Andre. While he presumably signed off on Dray’s return, he also said it’s gonna take time for him to win back the players’ trust.
Personally: while I’m still pissed at Dray to the point where I basically want him gone (if not right now, at a date TBD, like Tommy in Goodfellas) I have no issue with the Warriors’ process of leaving it up to the players. And either way, I don’t think an arbitrary X game suspension coming down from on high (as happened with the Dray-KD dustup) really changes anything. Dray lost the respect he had among his teammates — who to a man rushed to JP’s side, notwithstanding the initial, sleazy Haynes report to the contrary — and among NBA players in general; and I don’t think he’s ever gonna win it back completely. Let him stew in that knowledge while he’s yapping at the refs with his teammates rolling their eyes behind him, or while he’s trying to negotiate his extension with his leverage lost.
In a lot of ways, Draymond reminds me of an alcoholic who won't address his problem, and things keep going down downhill. Has a crisis, apologizes for it, but the underlying problem is never addressed, and the same thing keeps happening over and over again.
I am not saying Dray is an alcoholic, just that his behavior reminds me of one.
I would love to see Draymond address whatever demons he is fighting. Remember Chris Mullins years ago? Great player, but kind of an asshole before he got sober, so sort of similar story but with a great ending. Same could happen for Draymond, if he would address his situation with honesty. I really like Draymond, and would love to see his story have a great ending. But so far, he's not said what he was dealing with the day he punched out JP, and his press conference seemed like "same old Dray excuses" rather than someone who really wants to change.
I have a lot of compassion for Draymond, but he's got a problem, and if he papers it over again, same thing's going to keep happening - over and over and over again.
Nice analogy. Similar deal with Nellie before he gave up the bottle for Nellie-Kush and blissing out in Hawaii.
An X game suspension (I was favoring 10) is just a way to hit Green in the pocketbook, which is the thing he understands best. I don't have a ton of faith that all of these apologies matter to him. He's done it so many times. But if millions were gone, he'd remember that.
He was fined, though, albeit we don't know how much. If losing money teaches the lesson, it's possible that happened unless it was a small fine. A suspension would make sense if the team didn't want him around for awhile longer or if just not being allowed to play were considered a form of punishment or if it enabled a much larger financial penalty. (I don't know if there are limits on fines and if so what they are.) Apparently his teammates did not want him suspended.
My understanding is that the maximum fine is relatively small -- $50k for a guy who has $53M remaining on his contract. That's less than a tenth of 1%). Not much of a deterrent, if that's the case.
On NBA tv last night after the game, Jared Greenberg said the max the team could fine him would be $50K - which is nothing to someone making millions. Both he & Greg Anthony were shocked there was no suspension. And I'm sure many others felt the same.
Wow, that's a mild wrist slap. If that's so, I guess I have to change my tune about suspension.
How many times has be punched a teammate in practice?
I feel the lack of discipline is a bit ominous - evidence that Draymond has used up all his free passes. Sometimes no real action means that management is no longer interested in working with you to fix issues or take responsibility for them, and would rather know early whether the issues are fixed or to cut their losses. The implications to me of GS' not imposing suspensions is that either Draymond demonstrates he can adjust on his own, and be productive, or he's gone. And I would have to feel there's some sort of pretty short internal timeline in GS management on evaluating how Draymond fits back in. It also permits GS to effectively say goodbye in good form with ring night if that's what it comes to. I would not be at all surprised, depending on locker room and performance outcomes, to see Draymond traded a month from now.
Agreed Sleepy.
Unless Dray has another outburst later in the season, I think most fans will forget by X-mas time. For better or worse.
I don't see how that's possible. But maybe it's recency bias for me.
I'm never going to forget it. I've so enjoyed watching this guy play. But just like the episodes with Kerr, LeBron, and Durant, it's a reminder of what a two-edged sword the guy has always been. I remember how I felt the first time I heard someone compare him to Rodman, and I really thought that was overdone. Those people were more insightful than I ever would have guessed.
Agreed. More of a statement about the average attention span/media cycles than anything else.
I don't think about his Charlotte outburst or debacle with KD at all unless prompted. Winning cures all.
> Dray lost the respect he had among his teammates — who to a man rushed to JP’s side, notwithstanding the initial, sleazy Haynes report to the contrary — and among NBA players in general; and I don’t think he’s ever gonna win it back completely.
Not only that but he also probably lost significant money on his next contract and perhaps his chance to close out his career with the team he built. There are definitely consequences for him beyond those levied by the team.
In some ways the best outcome from the team perspective ... Poole and Draymond try to work it out. If not, move Draymond at the trade deadline for whatever they can get. If they do make it work, go for the chip and just let his contract play out.
I can't see Draymond being regarded as a team leader again. But, I never played team sports ... maybe these internal fights just aren't as big a deal as I think they should be.
Best outcome is a JP3 extension by the weekend. Dubs make it clear to all who they stand behind. Dray plays out the 2 years, both of which are chips :)
Rollins is further along defensively than one might have expected, coming from a mid-major school and without being cleared to play until September. He doesn't mess up much on-ball or off-ball, and his length really plays. I'm not sure he's really gambled at all, but still gotten something like 5+ deflections + steals this game, including a couple deflections with his feet to stop passes to otherwise open rollers. I think he's still feeling things out on offense, but things somehow seem to run smoothly when he's handling the ball. That's a good sign. He also mixes it up in the paint a bit when it comes to rebounds.
I still like Quinones. He can shoot, he's solid on defense for a rookie, has made some nice passes within the flow of the offense, and he likes to gamble a bit off-ball but he's done a pretty decent job of not getting burned when he does. Between the 3-and-D skillset, his seemingly joyous locker room presence, and maybe a little more room to grow in terms of playmaking if things break right, I think they should absolutely keep him. But we'll see.
Anthony Lamb and Pat Spencer are really, really intriguing. I continue to be really hesitant about Lamb because of the reports that he faced sexual assault allegations while in college (I haven't looked it up at all because I'm not sure I want to know more yet), and knowing very very well how borderline impossible it is for any alleged perpetrator to face any consequences for sexual assault on campus, the fact that he didn't seem to face legal charges, or suspensions or whatnot from the university, doesn't necessarily mean much. He's played phenomenally well though - really really good on defense, on the boards, on offense while playing within the system, et cetera. He hit a couple 3's as well. If he plays like that in camp consistently as well as on the court in preseason games, I'm not sure if they can justify not keeping him somehow.
Spencer is great. I like his shot, his defense, how well he fits within the offensive system and keeps the ball moving crisply. The finishing inside was a surprise - not that he had bounce, I knew that, but he hit a lot of reverse layups and the like with confidence. No finishing adventures, so to speak. If it comes down to him and Lamb, I think they might have to choose Lamb given what he brings defensively, but I hope they're able to keep Spencer in Santa Cruz. I think if they do we'll see him playing for the Dubs at some point during the season to fill out minutes during the dog days of the season.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes Quinones.
He's not the best among the G-leaguers/2-ways, but his defense seems pretty solid, he's a big! guard, and he's trying to what they want (pass a bit more). Unfortunately, I don't think he's shown enough of a jump shot to stick. Too bad. I think there's a chance he gets enough better to get to an NBA roster (probably for someone else).
Regarding the interview to Kerr yesterday after the match with Portland, when he communicated the decisions of Dubs FO and Team, about D. matter, I have only two or three things to say:
- If they weren't capable of doing what is impossible to me (i.e. rebuilding a good vibe where it was destroyed), I wouldn't be spending every odd night awake to watch them.
- I will never forget the image of JP that after the incident stays one hour more in the gym to work on his shooting. You will be Jordan Poole "Splashes in the dark" to me from now on.
- Draymond, look at these kids. You want to promise yourself to catch the bullet for them, because they are already strong, one day not far away they will be capable to raze the NBA, and they will need true leaders.
Let's build up strong and win it all, Dubs.
S.
I brought my ice cream game up to playoff level tonight. Tonight's starters & end of the bench guys deserved it for the effort they gave tonight. Lots of good things tonight on the offense.
I went with French Vanilla but now am out and need to buy more.
I restocked a couple of days ago. Never run out, never surrender ,,, to pudding cups after a Dubs victory.
We will fight in the cupboards,
We will fight in the freezers,
we will fight in the gelato cups,
we will never surrender (except to temptation)
Poole seems to be a bigger man than all the cancel culture people who want Draymond suspended.
Uh, a suspension is not canceling anyone. It's an attempt to /help/ Green develop into a mature adult and reliable teammate. Discipline is love. The lack of it just enables bad behavior and gives him license to let his worst instincts rule.
But whatever. The team has elected NOT to discipline him. Maybe they'll get lucky. But I don't think they're doing Draymond any favors with this decision. YMMV.
Whoa what do you mean by “cancel culture”?
If you mean the tendency towards all-or-nothing and unforgiving reactions, I can kind of see your sentiment.
However, that is NOT the primary way “cancel culture” the phrase is used, which in practice is very value-asymmetric, and used by people who are more politically conservative who have no qualms cancelling people for conservative reasons (eg see Florida’s “don’t say gay” bill, or an unsettling intra-Republican party warfare to cancel people who dont buy into election conspiracies). Ie in public discourse, people who complain about cancel culture are usually more upset about liberal-leaning values than they are about being unforgiving and silencing alternative views in a general way.
You can use words however you want, but be wary that it might not be conveying what you think you’re conveying. And before you call this attention to language a form of cancel culture… it’s more about clear communication.
This is a beautiful explanation.
Really.
I think I agree with the overall sentiment (people have been overreacting on the negative side toward Green), but I feel uneasy with the blame being placed on "cancel culture."
- Draymond did something bad. We, and everyone involved with the Warriors, wishes he didn't do it. I don't think this point is particularly debatable. However, how bad the action was can be debated. Some seem to be assuming this is PTSD-level triggering event for Poole -- while that is a possible outcome, and would be no fault to Poole, I doubt this type of incident normally has PTSD ramifications. I am not an expert on this matter though -- but the idea that this is not the first or last fight either has been involved in feels accurate. I also personally don't like to excessively judge people in situations I have not been in. I've never come close to punching anyone in anger, however I have gotten angry enough that I lost control of my reasonable sensibilities temporarily. I would be surprised if others have not been in a similar situation. If I were in a physical environment, as a basketball court is, I can't confidently say what the outcome would have been. Like many of us, who in some respects idolize and look up to these players, I wish in this moment Draymond had lived up to my belief he is a better person than I am. But, if he faltered, and exhibited the same flaws I may have, it is disappointing but I am not going to overly judge him for it.
- the term "cancel culture" has become quite politically loaded, and I can't say that I agree with its connotations. People have always been "cancelled." While there are countless in history, a very clear and modern example is Muhammad Ali, who was quite literally cancelled from competing for four years in his prime years (a little bit more than then 1 to 40 game suspensions suggested here for Green), likely based on his race and religious beliefs. I think the information/internet age has made a lot more things readily available, which triggers more outrage when bad deeds are uncovered. But it is hard for me to reconcile the recent attacks on "cancel culture" as anything other than "we are upset that whites are now being cancelled". While perhaps not applicable to this particular case with Draymond Green, it definitely has bothered me that minorities have always been "cancelled" by society, and this only has seemed to become some terrible leftist machination when white people also started to become cancelled.
I cannot agree more with your second point.
And let’s be crystal clear about who is getting upset about cancel culture:
The people getting upset about cancel culture are almost uniformly people expousing hateful and hurtful extremist conservative right wing ideology (or ideas associated with extremist conservative right wing ideology) who are upset that people in society aren’t letting them get away with openly being assholes anymore. They want people to laugh at their garbage when they call it all a joke, and are getting angry that people aren’t staying silent or laughing with them anymore.
"The people getting upset about cancel culture are almost uniformly people expousing hateful and hurtful extremist conservative right wing ideology" Well wait a minute. Yes, the far right has made "cancel culture" into a perjorative buzzword and throws the term around to, essentially, cancel people rather than engaging in a real discussion. I most certainly won't defend that (or them). But many people in the center and moderate left feel that canceling someone outright for a wrong action can be an arrogant and self-righteous overreaction, and it stifles free speech by those who do not necessarily agree with the majority group's norms and understanding. Rather than canceling someone, consider that it might be better to look for ways of bringing that person into balance and harmony.
Yes. And there's nothing more ironic and smug than accusing people of "cancel culture" as a means of silencing opinions you don't necessarily agree with, as the OP has done here.
What is OP?
OP = "Original Poster," referring to whoever started a thread/post. Here, thesarunas is apparently referring to Tonkal, who started the discussion of cancel culture.
Love this.
Moody is a 3 and D only role player prospect, they said.
It's almost like Moody woke up. I was thinking "Damn who is that" several different times in the first half.
When he gets minutes without the Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Draymond guys playing, he has scored in bunches. In Summer League, G-League, preseason, even in the actual NBA.
It does seem like an issue of trying to play his role too well alongside the starters, although I'd rather have that than the opposite.
Kuminga doesn't give effort on defense they said.
DDV is the third PG and they have no need for Jerome and should just keep Quinones, they said.
Oh wait, that was me.
Everytime someone mentions Jerome, I get confused if they're talking about Ty Jerome or Jerome Robinson lol.
How much playing time do you think Jerome will get? DDV seems to have misplaced his shot but he does continue to terrorize on the boards, assisting, and disrupting offences. He was everywhere tonight. Jerome might get a few minutes in garbage time unless there are some yet to be revealed skills in his set. The bench is already deep. Gonna be a dogfight and most will wind up in SC.
Not a huge fan of Jerome yet, I've watched too many backup PGs like Wanamaker who cannot beat their man off the dribble. DDV is a lot more to my liking.
Pulling receipts on yourself? That's cold blooded, even for you beli...
Well, if Jordan Poole and the players had a strong say in deciding Draymond’s punishment and are at peace with it, as was reported, then I’m okay with it.
I agree, and I think Mycroft has a good point above: everybody on the team has decided Draymond gets another chance, but only one more. As Sleepy said, he has trashed his leadership and leverage, so he has every incentive to both clean up his act and maximize his performance on the floor, and he will have to do both to retire a Dub.
That's where I am as well. It is a team isolated issue so a team oriented solution seems appropriate. If they are ready to move on so should we be. There's no reason any fan should care about this situation more than the actual team. Also, if Draymond can somehow channel all of this into his play, we're in for one heck of a season.
Jordan Poole is the physically smaller but emotionally bigger man. I was a big fan before, an even bigger fan now. Now let's just go out and repeat!
Kerr's statement about that swayed my thinking too.
IMO, total self interest is at work within the Warrior organization. This should have moved up to a league level intervention and decision.
Who’s interest other than Poole’s should we be worried about?
I presume that you are saying that League will be better equipped in deciding the right level of punishment. And the idea there being to force Dray to rehabilitate (so to say).
Do you think you get that by say him getting suspended for 5 games? IMHO, not only that won't work given how Dray is but also healing from with in (which includes player's only meetings) will not be as effective.
In my opinion, he will be more beholden to what now he must have promised to the players.
Dubs should have suspended him for opening night in my opinion, but if that leads to most of his teammates being unhappy, what would have been the point?
In Loon (looks like he played a big role in getting all sorted out), Steph, Steve, Bob and even Dray, I trust.
An opening game suspension would have served the purpose of letting players know that there's a limit, a line you can't cross without consequences, no matter how big you are. Not that it matters now.
Yes, I thought the league would have something to say about events like this. Some kind of suspension wasn't unreasonable, imo. But I'm not going to get involved in putting a 'price' on Dray's punishment. Assault is taken seriously in courts. I didn't expect that Poole would press charges but I don't think it would be bad idea for the NBA to step in when things like this occur.
> total self interest is at work within the Warrior organization
Are you saying the players have their own interests in mind? And, instead, they should've subject themselves to the judgement of a higher authority instead?
An authority that is removed from the personal narratives of a team. Isn't that what laws are all about?
This.
If my negligent neighbor damages my window and we work out something to help me repair it. Are you saying I should file a police report for vandalism instead?
Now your pulling straws out of your pillow.
Which is hilarious, because ultimately the only people affected by that fight (no matter how hard people want to claim or wish otherwise) are the players on the roster and the members of the Warriors organization.
This didn’t affect the NBA as a league, or any of its franchises, in any way. Hell, if that leaker hadn’t put the video out, no one would have known about how it went down and people would have stopped talking about this incident sometime Sunday night.
The only people who this thing affected was the players and the organization. Only the players and the organization should decide what the punishment and resolution should be. Unless the process of internal resolution is suspected to involve criminal acts (like coercing Poole or his supportive teammates to downplay it or not speak out if needed, or other more nefarious acts like extortions/threats/etc.), there is no need for anyone else to get involved.
But if Draymond knows the punishment is chosen by Poole, or by the FO, those people might not pick a punishment they really want, because they don't want Draymond to know they want that. If I'm forced to pick a punishment for my neighbor, and they know I get to pick it, I'll pick no punishment in fear of damaging the relationship. But if the police have a standard punishment I could say, "sorry neighbor I wish they didn't punish you so much," but secretly be happy they got punished, without needing to be the bad guy. I'm sure Poole would prefer the league play the bad guy, and pretend he is cool with whatever.
That was my thinking.
Yep. Ultimately, it's the players (and especially Poole) that should decide how to move on from this.
Just tuning into the game now, but LOVED the highlights. I wish the Ws could field a 2nd team; I'd watch and root for these guys. They were great!
For me, last years chip was unexpected (kudos to some of you who had this pegged early). Me personally I don’t see any young cat on this roster who screams the next Curry or Draymond but some nice complementary pieces. I mention this because while last year was a pleasant Surprise I desperately want the chip this year. I just feel that Klay and drays contract situation gonna loom heavy over the team and the young guys are gonna be up for extensions. I don’t think we’re keeping everyone together. Just can’t pay them so I’m ok with kicking the can on the whole Draymond situation this year. Just has the feels of a special season prior to the punch. This is how I felt in 15-16.
Winning the chip the previous season unlocked something within the team in 15-16 and led to a historic season (we'll ignore what happened in the finals :). This season feels the same, it felt like something special was brewing and I'm optimistic that's still the case.
"while last year was a pleasant Surprise I desperately want the chip this year."
Yep, way more.
gonna work on finding the clip, but Kerr called Loon "the moral compass of the team" & "a special human being"
Yeah, that was such a strong statement, especially Kerr’s delivery of those words.
Kerith has the quote but not a clip: https://twitter.com/KerithBurke/status/1580060725346594819?s=20&t=qTn4lntDASdpNfE1wa5fSw
MANAGEMENT WHITEWASHES THE GREEN/POOLE INCIDENT
The team has made a decision based on self interest rather than the ultimate interest in Green's mental health. What could we really expect? It reminds of many police incidents of brutality that get marginalized and not really dealt with. Society needs to change but it begins with individuals.
I was really looking forward to seeing JMG start in place of Draymond. He had a great game and shows what he is really capable of. Very pleased with the game today. Great showing by the bench. Lots of hustle and playmaking.
Are you seriously comparing a fight between two grown men at a practice to police brutality and the unjust, morally bankrupt (if not downright evil) failings of members of the justice system in this country?
That’s a ridiculous low, Bum. You really lived up to the last three letters of your name with that sort of brainlessly hyperbolic and uncalled for statement.
People have and do actually die because of, and in the name of stopping, abusive corruption from people in the justice system. Nothing about two millionaires fighting on a basketball court comes anywhere near that.
If you try harder, you might connect the dots. If you can't, then the status quo of the general mindset is at work. It's not up to me to convince or defend anyone, but I will speak up when events don't make sense to me.
I did enjoy the game very much and I'm happy that we'll see Draymond play very soon, even though I don't agree with how their process evaluates things.
It seems unnecessarily hyperbolic to compare this incident with something as serious as police brutality which has claimed the lives of countless innocent civilians, some of them children, and grossly/disproportionately targeting people of color. I understand you wanted a harsher punishment but making this kind of comparison helps no one.
Yeah.
Even for Basketbum, comparing a fight at an NBA practice to freakin police brutality and moral corruption inside the justice system is a brand new low. One I didn’t think even Basketbum’s hot take infused mind was capable of.
Violence at any level is not condoned in my eyes. No amount of rhetoric makes it acceptable. America is a very violent country and this needs to be addressed no matter where it occurs.
There is a big, big difference in proportionality and scale of the two kinds of violence you are equating here. They are incomparable, and it has nothing to do with rhetoric. by putting them on the same plane you are trivializing the lives that have been ended by police brutality. That's not cool.
Your judgement is ill placed.
Explain to me how it's my judgement that is ill placed rather than your attempt to equate an athlete punching a teammate with the state-sanctioned and taxpayer-funded murder of innocent people.
You might not agree with my opinions, and that is fine. But everything is related to how you view the world and yourself. It's a big topic and this is not the place for a discussion of this.
Absolutely. I fear we may lose perspective when baying for blood!
That was an IMMENSELY enjoyable preseason game.
ehhhh .. ... That late 2nd qtr whistlefest was awful, but yeah otherwise was fun to watch the kids tighten up on D.
And then Steph nearly knocked me outta my chair with the quip a out he and his locker mates.
I watch on recorded feed so I jump through the FT fests… highly recommended
You're not wrong about that stretch of fouling. I just enjoyed the hell out of watching our young guys actually run an offense and not wanting to turn away in horror.
DNP: Curry, Poole, Thompson, Wiggins, Green, Looney, Iguodala. 😂