Getting angry at the players for asking for more money is akin to blaming the rising costs of a Big Mac on the fact that the burger flipper makes $15 an hour.
Yes, the sheer numbers are VERY different, but the concept is the same; the economic constraints in these situations come from owners unwilling to give up on their astronomical profit margins in order to compensate laborers at a higher rate.
Yes, Lacob has been amazing thus far as an owner, but he's still constrained by the CBA and what ALL the owners have collectively decided. Yes, most franchise owners don't make a huge amount off of their individual restaurants, but they're constrained by the ultimate McDonald's corporate directions.
It's easy to place outrage on the face of the business (e.g., the players, and the fast food workers), but ultimately this is an ownership issue, not a player issue.
Supposedly Draymond is asking for a *max extension* which starts at 125% current salary for 4 additional years, not a max contract. The difference is quite large, roughly 30M a year vs. 40M a year initially.
The value that Steph, Dray, and Klay have brought to the Warriors, let alone the NBA, has far exceeded even twice their combined salaries so far. This is due to the portion of the CBA that the owners have insisted upon, imposing a collective discipline on themselves, via cap and tax and max salaries, to share as little of the revenue with players as possible. From the players' point of view, running up against the cap is a problem that the owners have to solve. Ownership wants to force players into moves such as what Harden just did, which amounts to breaking solidarity with the interests on his own side and yielding to the owners' artificial constraints.
This is an important distinction. Essentially Draymond is (allegedly) asking for a standard raise, and claiming (rightfully, in my opinion) that his past performance justifies the raise, and asserting (understandably) that he believes his future performance will earn it.
As you alluded to, team values (especially the Warriors) have ballooned much faster than the increase in the cap. Owners (as a whole) are making bank. One of the problems is that we see player salaries and think "I can't believe so and so is making x amount to play basketball!!!" when we can't simultaneously see how much the owners are making for the pleasure of paying x player to play basketball for them.
The Harden situation is so much different than this situation.
Bottom line: we cannot have 5 max players on this team.
Dray should want to do what Hardon did. Hes still filthy rich...his familys familys family is still set for life for generations...which is a bit sickening tbh lol
Think about it this way: there's a cap on what the players can make for their labors. There is NO cap on what the owners can make off of the players' labor.
Regardless of whether or not he's already wealthy, how much money has Lacob made as a direct result of Draymond and co. winning. The answer? A heck of a lot more than Draymond is (allegedly) asking for.
Just take away the numbers (which are all Monopoly money) and just look at the dynamic of employee vs. CEO/President/Owner and it's a much different picture than just "rich basketball player not willing to take a pay cut to keep winning ball games."
The Athletic is trying to put out NBA content in July. Draymond hasn't made a statement, hasn't given an interview or put out a request for the max. The Athletic is just trying to speculate as to what may happen, cap/luxury tax-wise, with the roster of most interesting team in sports.... none of this should start blowback on any of the Warriors players, as none of them were quoted, much less even contacted for the story.
fwiw, I think Slater & MT2 have pretty good sources & connections with key Warriors players (& Kawakami is obviously very well connected with their front office/ownership, a perk of serving as their mouthpiece)
but I agree that there's no point in getting mad at Dray (or anyone else) now, in the posturing stage of negotiations
This is very true. This story was the same story a week ago, and a week before that. In fact, the most recent news included in the story is Lacob's interview with AS. I guess you might include w/e Dray's said in recent podcasts or tweets - that he's eager for the date when he can be extended. Dray got the max last contract, too, and it stands to reason that he would expect the max next contract. I'm sure he certainly believes he can be 16-game Dray for five more years.
That being said, the question of what to do about the $530+M projected '23-'24 payroll & tax if Poole & Wiggs get expected extensions on top of if Dray opts-out is definitely a looming one for the Dubs. And the offseason is a perfectly reasonable time to talk about it.
I don’t understand Dray. Honestly. Look back to history: Pippen was paid less than Jordan, McHale wa paid less than Bird. Does someone even begin discussing how crucial McHale and Pippen were for the success of their teams? No. It’s simply an unwritten rule of the show, that the defender is paid somehow less than the scorer.
No matter that, it’s Lacob’s money, so it’s not upon me to argue. I say only that we risk, with that stuff, to be forced to give up Poole AND Wiggins in ‘23. And probably Wiseman, too. All that because of Dray’s max. Let’s think about it.
By the way, Harden, supposedly one of the most self-centered and presumptuous players ever, has just CUT his own payroll. Meditate, gente, meditate. (Think, people, think)
Umm... Dray is paid less than Steph, and will get paid less than Steph even on his max extension. If he turns down the player option, he can get a max extension starting @ $30.7M per year, according to the Athletic. That's far far less than the $52M Steph is set to make in '23-'24.
What’s there not to understand. He’s starting at his highest possible earning potential and the Warriors FO
are setting up the lowball early by claiming they won’t go past a mythical threshold. They’ll go through a song and dance between millionaires and billionaires and eventually they’ll settle on a happy medium, that if asked privately, Draymond would say that’s always the figure they were aiming for.
I don’t understand that song and dance. Shall it be because I can’t hear the music. I suppose that millionaires think very differently than me, but I’m pretty sure that if I should become a millionaire (I will never) I would think differently. Very differently.
I don't think you would, when your bosses would be billionaires. You would be wondering why you have to sacrifice your earning potential so that they can save a few bucks, and rightfully so.
Knowing myself from a literal lifetime, I am pretty sure of what I say. I would be different, because i am different already in my own limited world. I won’t start making examples, but I know what I’m talking about.
No need to speculate or even care what Dray will get in the future. It's none of our business and will not affect the situation at all. He's already set for life and so is his family's family's family for generations. All of this will seem meaningless after China shoots down Pelosi's plane over the S. China Sea and the west never sees another made in China product. The US economy is in serious trouble but you'd never know it by the salaries these guys get.
Since we're going way OT with this, I hope Pelosi doesn't take that trip; I think it's a mistake. But if she does, she won't fly over the South China Sea. That's to the SW. She'll come in to Taipei from the NE, over Japan and the East China Sea. Of course, the Chinese could try to shoot her down there too.
Since we're waaaaay OT, safely hidden into this thread until Eric Apricot will find out and ban forever us and seven generations of our descendants, let me call this to you in name of all free thinkers of the overseas countries: You have our blessings to do whatever is needed to set Brittany Griner free, but you should really set Julian Assange free in exchange, not a weapon dealer. It sounds like "choose, Barabba or Jesus." all over again.
What a bizarre trade that is. What was she thinking when she took the cannabis oil and vape out of the U.S? How dumb can you be. You have to obey the laws of the country you are in. There is a good chance she might be given time in jail, but it is rather a petty matter exacerbated by the rhetoric of the US towards their 'arch enemy', Russia. In Thailand, it is now legal to buy/sell/use cannabis in all forms. It's exploded here with shops, restaurants, and online sellers offering top shelf products. Everyone is now stoned
The Russians want their boy Viktor Bout. They have no use for Assange. But we don't have Assange yet anyway, the British have him. He is appealing his extradition.
OT:OT:OT: here we call it the 'west philippine sea' :)
great surf during amihan (cali winter) on the west coast of northern luzon
taiwan isn't even allowing transit visas for flights connecting through taipei, but eva air is selling flights that connect there. when will covid end?
Everyone worrying about Draymond I'm not. Would be foolish to even consider giving Draymond a max, ideally kuminga will be the starting 4 by the time dray has to opt in, while the defense might slide some....the offense would be dramatically better . Def want dray back but if he is being selfish that's on him, I expected him to take a serious pay cut and team friendly deal but as he said about kd .....he thinks he is some elite business man, go and play without Steph he will be completely exposed
Of course, Draymond should believe he should get the max. The Warriors can agree that he deserves it. But the organization can't pay everyone under the stupid current CBA luxury tax rules that penalize home-drafted and developed talent. The Big Stars should take less to keep the gang together.
He’s not getting max offers either way, from the Warriors or anyone else.
I’m with you, tho. I want to keep everyone, but if you twist my arm, I’d let both Dray and Klay walk at the end of their deals (at age 34) sooner than say goodbye to Poole, Wiggins, Kuminga, or Moody.
The last I heard Klay wants to play for Kerr for the rest of his career. Of course he expects and deserves to be well paid but I bet he'll take less than the max.
Steph’s signed for two years beyond Dray and Klay. And we have no idea how he’d react if the team opted to retool the roster at the end of their current deals.
Agree completely with you on this subject. Re-tooling is a fact of life in the NBA. Lacob has bent over backwards to create a dynasty. Nothing lasts forever, but good things can still happen in the future.
Not glad that I'm stressing over them. Really though, who are we going to lose? Such a stressful thought. Only player that we're sure to keep is Curry.
Sure is pretty strong, but I think Curry would stay. He's under contract, and in his heart, he has to know that Dray won't be worth a max contract. Does he really expect Lacob to cave to protect Green's ego, even if it costs him the future?
Thinking about life without Draymond and how hard he’d be to replace, it occurred to me that although it might sound crazy, perhaps Looney could develop into Draymond’s role as the defensive signal caller, free safety/help specialist, offensive facilitator.
Other than Steph, Klay, Dray and Iggy, there’s no one who appears to be more well-versed in the Warriors offense or has a higher BBIQ than “Lunchbox Looney”. While he’s currently spending most of his time setting screens and fighting for rebounds, he knows what’s going on around him and where to be. He’s not a big scoring threat, but that never stopped Draymond, Zaza or Bogut from leading the 3-ring circus from the 5. Though the ball doesn’t find its way into his hands very often, he shown the ability to find guys for open shots.
It’s kind of weird to think about quiet, professional Kevon playing the part of wildcard Draymond. For those old enough to remember, it reminds me of when Meadowlark Lemon left the Globetrotters and there was just no way to replace him, but quiet Geese Ausbie stepped in. While there was no replacing Meadowlark, Geese made the role his own and achieved greatness as well.
I've been thinking about life without Dray for years. It's gonna happen but we don't know when. Best scenario fo me is to engineer a trade but I'm not gonna think about it because Dray is here now and now is the only thing that counts in my world.
His wingspan and upper body are huge which is really useful, but he’s always been “undersized”. The reason he was a 2nd rounder is because people though he wasn’t even big enough to play power forward, let along center. Not coincidentally, this was in the days before Draymond, Steph, Kerr and the rest of the Dubs changed the way the NBA game is played.
Far and away, Draymond’s biggest asset is his brain. His BBIQ is elite on both offense and defense, and combines quick recognition and reaction to make it look like he “sees things before they happen”.
Draymond is quick on defense, way faster than Looney. That's how he can play free safety and switch to where he's needed in time. When he needs to he can get down the court in a hurry on offense too, so he can push the tempo. Looney isn't that guy.
Draymond rated 36th and by far the best defender in the league, Looney...I don't know because I don't want to count down that far. EDIT: Looney was 116th, did not notice the rankings on the right, I feel like they are usually on the left lol.
I’ve seen a couple of complaints in the comments about Looney not developing more of an offensive game. I note:
1. Looney has had a LOT of injuries which put him out for long chunks of time.
2. If it were so easy, every non-lazy NBA player would have those skills. People rave about his work ethic, so it’s not laziness.
3. Most NBA pros are actually good at scoring and dribbling. Compare, for instance, Brian Scalabrine, who was talked about scathingly as the worst player in the NBA in his time. And yet, he famously destroyed every non-NBA challenger in one on one play, even in retirement.
So Kevon is probably very good at a lot of basketball things compared to very very good basketball players, but on the NBA court, compared to other NBA players, defended by NBA players, and exhausted by doing the things the team actually needs, he looks bad shooting, creating in the post, etc.
It would take a LOT of development to improve from “very good” to the elite level of “good in the NBA” and it might not even be possible for most humans.
4. Because Looney has shown excellent improvement in other aspects, I don’t think it’s fair to complain that Looney hasn’t improved in every dimension. In fact, shooting and post ups are very unimportant to this team, and to get better than that, he has to take away time he could spend doing other more important things, for instance, becoming an elite rebounder this season with Dejan, which was massive in the playoffs.
5. The fact that he spent time developing as a rebounder and one-on-one defender of smalls means that he has not gotten better at scoring and other glamorous aspects that get players paid, so it’s a tribute to his team-first approach, not a sign that he’s letting down the team.
My memory is that Looney used to have a little bit of a mid range jumper but he has pretty much stopped shooting it unless the shot clock is expiring as the team doesn't need him to shoot.
If I may add, it's not even true that he didn't improve in areas people want him to. It was observed somewhere on this board during the playoffs how he now has a pump fake and seems to have improved at finishing under the hoop this season.
Amen to this, I am surprised that Looney's improved finishing doesn't get mentioned more. I remember in years past not having any confidence in Looney hitting a contested layup under the basket, he's come a long way
Agreed, the eye test says Loon was reliably finishing layups in the playoffs - I recall being pleasantly surprised at the development. I think it tapered off vs Boston, but I'm sure Boston's personnel had something to do w/ that - all the Dubs were getting swatted in that series
There was an article I read a few days back that mentioned his workout and just some of the descriptions used by those in attendance made me think that he probably wasn’t going to get signed
Of course he wants it. And since he’s Draymond, he says it. And will likely say it many times. But I just see this as part of a negotiation. Dray wants to stay with the Dubs. He also wants the biggest contract possible. We’ll see what he gets. My prediction: he stays with us and gets a pretty nice but not a max contract.
I agree that he wants to stay with the Dubs and it’s also a negotiation tactic of a first stake in the ground that he can come down from. I also think he REALLY wants an extension so he doesn’t have to be in the situation where he’d have to call the Warriors bluff and test free agency. In a world where all the good teams are capped out, how much of a market is there for a 34-year-old who’s an incredible fit on the Warriors but a questionable fit pretty much anywhere else?
most likely the teams who would afford it and best benefit from Draymond's vet experience would be a young team who hasn't entered the territory of maxing out 2+ players yet, like Phoenix (CPIII) and Boston (Horford) a couple years ago.
I guess this is the current thread. Re-posting from the other one:
My prediction.
Lacob is a business man. He knows that (1) the Cap is going up significantly the year after the big extensions would hit, and (2) how to amortize money and distribute it across multiple years. He gave Myers a pretty clear message to cut payroll this year, and Myers did. They will have a lower payroll than they did last year after taxes. He also knows that once the cap goes up, they will also end up with a lower payroll. So, he will be willing to take the hit to extend everyone for one year, and amortize out that cost over multiple years, including this year's payroll.
Honestly, Dray opting out into an early extension at a $3M raise above his option is probably a good thing long term for the Dubs. If Dray were to go into UFA in the same year the salary cap gets a huge bump, there will be LOTS of teams with money to spend, and the Max could go up to $50M+/year. There's a high probability he would end up earning a contract well in excess of $33M+ in the first year. Yah, the extra $3M+ hurts in the year where you're paying almost an 8x multiplier in luxury tax, but the long term money saved most likely offsets it.
This is a great prediction and I forgot his free agency would be under the new, bigger cap, but as I replied in the post above, I just don’t see a big market for him.
Yea... from the sounds of it a lot of players might try to extend only through 2025, waiting for new media deal money in summer of 2025.
However, the NBA may try to smooth the cap increase so that we don't get Mozgov silly business again.
where the calculus gets a bit weird is people expecting the salary cap to grow faster than salary increases (I think 8%?).
That said, 1) only competitors will sign Draymond, and 2) it'll have to be a young team who hasn't had to go crazy paying (multiple) stars yet, kind of like the suns with Chris Paul and Celtics with Horford, where they really benefit from the veteran experience.
I think we keep on to Draymond... but it'll be more expensive than many of us here anticipate, simply with the cap increasing so much (saw that it might be ~10%/yr for the next few years). My guess is that right now we think Draymond is worth maybe 25m/yr? In two years, add on 20%, that's 30m/yr. It seems crazy, but I think the proper way to think of it is what % of salary cap will Draymond be in that year.
Really tangential to this, but somewhat related. It's easy for us fans to go "hey, you're making tens of millions of dollars... what's there to complain about???" I mean, I'd be happy with a fraction of Draymond's salary. Sign me for the vet minimum!
On the other side, the players are looking at the owners and going "hey, you're a billionaire and making billions of dollars off of my popularity! It won't hurt you to give me $40m as opposed to $30m!"
And that right there is one of the more insidious aspects of the luxury tax: relatively speaking any amount of money that a player gives up in order to stay under the tax, or for luxury tax considerations is comparatively a larger amount of money to that player than any associated luxury tax would be to that owner.
Now whether it's the players or the owners, it's all in ridiculous Monopoly money figures and it's hard to really say that any individual is actually "worth" the amount they are receiving for either playing basketball or for owning a basketball team, but (and I haven't actually run the numbers on this but I'm fairly certain that it's correct) the luxury tax ends up hurting players more than it does owners when comparing it relatively.
I think that the luxury tax being more injurious to players than to owners was totally intentional and part of the reason that the owners lobbied for it.
Yeah the middle getting wiped out is real. As I said elsewhere, I think one solution is letting any player making under x amount ($10m?) Not count against the cap.
I somewhat disagree. Owners are greedy for sure But half of BRI goes to players, no matter what the luxury tax a team pays. What I mean to say is that luxury tax doesn't directly impact BRI.
Now you can argue that players should get more than half the BRI. or that owners shouldn't treat it like a business. Owners are rich like a hell so may be there is merit to that argument.. But same would apply to top 50 players in NBA who have become rich like hell through their hard work and unique craft. 200 least paid players would surely like bigger piece of player's part of BRI pie as they work extremely hard as well.
"owners shouldn't treat it like a business. Owners are rich like a hell so may be there is merit to that argument." I think not. Did you watch Igoudala and ET's recent "Point Forward" interview with Joe Lacob (the one that got Lacob fined)? Lacob talks about how they financed Chase Center. They were way over their heads because the cost basically doubled. They had to get creative to pull it off, and it worked, but doing projects like that, they'd be fools not to treat the team as a business. At the same time Lacob said his ownership wasn't about making money (he already did that), it was about winning. So at least for him, he runs it as a business so he can keep it successful and win.
I agree with that Owners have to atleast run it as a break even business.
It was kind of interesting that Lacob said that during Oracle days, all the profits went to build Chase.. But now all the profits are going towards paying the salaries of players, coaches, et al. But what wasn't captured was that Lacob and Co can (and did raise) raise money by selling a stake in now highly valued franchise. Players definitely would like a stake in that. But that will be inequitable across 450 players and unlike traditional businesses, you need your competitors to put a product out there. And that is why Dray (and others) want max numbers because in their view team can sell a stake and pay luxury tax.
Portland is going to be capped as will be almost any other team that Draymond might want to play on. The one wild card I can see is the Pistons depending on how much Draymond wants to go back to Michigan. They can easily create cap space and he will get to play with an extremely talented young core ... and they didn't draft a power forward.
I could also see the Warriors offering Draymond less than this, even knowing what his other offers are, and letting him walk.
The reality is, they've got Poole, Wise, Moody, Kuminga to pay, and re-signing Klay and Draymond are lesser priorities. Unless one of these young picks flame out (and thus doesn't need a new contract), the Dubs have to see what they will turn into. High picks don't come that often, and having four with significant potential is even rarer.
Maybe. I imagine a lot will ride on how he looks next season. My sense is there’s a fair amount of recency bias at play with Dray, from the fact the Ws won the ‘chip with him playing really well in the one-game sample of the close-out game. But I think Looney outplayed Dray in the playoffs overall; and at 26 is pretty good bet to be at least as good an overall player as 32-35 y.o. Dray over the next 3-4 seasons. And Loon commanded a modest 3/$25M this offseason, with the third year only partially guaranteed.
I don't think that's an apt analogy. I have sung many paeans to Looney and he can replicate some of what Draymond does on the defensive end but he does not open up Steph's off-ball game like Dray can on the other side and just isn't the passer Draymond is in general. Even though he's a non-shooter, he would have value to other teams on both ends of the floor which means he's going to get paid noticeably more than the $8m or so AAV that Loon got.
We’ll see. Guys in their early-mid 30s often go from “he’s going to get paid noticeably more than $8M” to scrounging for a minimum contract in the blink of an eye. Look at Carmelo Anthony. Or Westbrook, who I think will extremely lucky to find a taxpayer MLE somewhere after this season.
It's gonna be a very interesting year for a lot of Warriors, I think... I have a feeling that nobody's getting an extension this offseason. I suppose I could see some players signing a short extension that makes them UFA in the cap spike offseason, especially Poole since he would be able to lock in "generational wealth" career earnings before the upcoming season.
To your point, if Loon, Wise, and Kuminga look great... it's a lot less pressure to keep Dray at all costs.
Aside from Looney’s game which is celebrated so well here, I just love his attitude. Is there a more team first player? He’s up there with Steph. Loon always does what is needed, or steps aside when asked, with a smile on his face. Not just a professional but a good warm soul. I’m really happy he found a way - and did the work - for his game to fit into the puzzle that is the Dubs system.
I don't have much platitudes for Loon that Apricot and other posters in this thread haven't already expressed (shoutout to PhysiaPete and Phood Fight), so I will just say that if there are still folks who don't believe that Looney is a foundational piece of this championship team and an absolutely crucial component to their success, you can come fight me in Temecula. Looney is the kind of dude who saves his best play for the most important moments and always elevates his game when called upon. It's why his teammates and his coaches love him so much. He's a consummate professional and I love watching him play. Couldn't be anything less than an A pick.
I’ll fight you where’s Temecula? Look I already agree with all the points made about his sturdy approach,
his mental toughness, his team defense, his screen setting, his lack of ego. And I think that what you mean by “consummate professional” is something like has the right attitude,
shows up on time, works hard doesn’t complain, all of which I see and celebrate.
But isn’t part of professionalism working on every facet of one’s game? We’re allowed to admire and critique the same guy. In this case I find it frustrating that Looney hasn’t found any way to score reliably. He’s in the gym and on the court for six years — where’s the reliable midrange shot or pivot move that doesn’t look painful or clang off the rim? Hasn’t Steph shown us that true professionalism includes adding tools to the toolkit every year? If Looney could make an elbow shot reliably, that would help a ton. I’m sure he’s practiced every kind of shot probably ad nauseum — but the results have not been there. He needs to work on that to get both my thumbs up because right now it’s only one thumb.
every shot looney takes is one less shot for curry/klay/poole/wiggins. a doctor doesn't need to fly a fighter jet, and a pilot doesn't need to perform brain surgery. players have specialized skills the team needs. training them all to do everything is redundant, and makes them worse at their specialty.
Right but if he's on the floor he's going to be left open. And a wide open Looney who can hit at a high percentage is actually a better shot than a contested Steph 3. Then if he can establish any kind of threat, that opens things up for others. It's the five-out strat, I didn't invent it.
But if Looney is wide open and he does a handoff to Steph then Steph is wide open. Which is better than Looney or Embiid or pretty much any big being wide open.
Alright, let's fight. I think this criticism of Looney is somewhat nonsensical, TBH. This team doesn't need him to be a shooter, they need him to be a guy who does the dirty work and gets rebounds and sets screens and all of those things that you seem to take for granted and not value as highly as shooting/scoring ability, even though plenty of teams that possess a plethora of guys who can shoot get knocked out of the playoffs every season because they don't have enough guys with the skills and willingness to to defend, rebound, and do the dirty work. It's a thankless job and not every NBA player by far has the mentality to be able to accept that role nor the toughness to do it on a regular basis. And I wouldn't even agree with your assertion that Looney doesn't work on his scoring game, just that he doesn't have many opportunities to show it because the team does not ask him to shoot or score very often as it is not his role. He can finish reliably enough near the rim and has an underrated pump fake that has gotten better every season he has played. Asking him to also become a good mid-range shooter is like saying Steph needs to become a better post defender. Why? That isn't his role. Looney isn't a David West or a Mo Speights, he's more of a Zaza, who was never expected to be much of a shooter or scorer either. If what Loon does isn't enough to garner approval from both of your thumbs, then may I suggest that it is your thumbs that are at fault here, not Looney's performance.
I also want you to acknowledge that Looney scoring reliably would increase his worth to a point that the Warriors would not be able to keep him anymore. Not all players should do all things. Sometimes, it's less beneficial to a team when a player is too good at too many things because it usually means they get more money from another team to take a bigger role. The art in assembling a championship, nay, a dynasty-level roster is to find players that fit together perfectly and whose skills complement each other, not players who can all do everything well, because there is no way that team could ever be kept together beyond a season or two.
The things that Looney does well are exactly what this team needs the most and the things he does poorly are things that the team has other options for. That's a perfect-fitting piece. If he could do what he does on the defensive end, such as being able to face-guard opposing ball-handlers, which is already incredibly valuable especially in a playoff context, and also was a good scorer, he would be making far more money elsewhere because that is an extremely valuable player.
Indeed we disagree. 1. A guy can be really good at setting screens and all the stuff Looney does well AND shoot well. It's not one or the other. Hey, KD shot well, but no one got mad when he also blocked shots.
2. You're confusing me. You're saying that it doesn't quite matter that Looney doesn't need to score; but yet that if looked at closely, he does score well, his pump fakes and so on -- and yet again saying that if he does score well, he will cost too much. So all at once you're saying that he is someone who isn't scoring well, is scoring well, and is at risk of scoring too well. That seems contradictory.
Effectively what you're saying is that Looney is good, which should lead us to say "good for him," but not that good, which should lead us to say "Good for the FO for balancing the team with the right role players in the right spots." So then it's not a question of Looney's value, but of the FO's smarts, which is a separate topic.
This role player thing is overstated. It's a bug, not a feature. If you can for the same money have an all-star, you don't trade him for a role player. If Looney magically this summer develops JJJ's skills set and uses it in games, exactly zero people in the Dubs universe will be upset.
Looney is not in my mind "exactly what this team needs." He does things well, as I've acknowledged. But he also does things poorly, (like all players) Let's just imagine, for a second, that he could shoot something other than a putback. That would decrease the load on the other guys, increase the scoring because he's gonna be wide open, and make defenders honor him, leaving shooters more open. It's five out ball, which I hella didn't invent, but is insanely effective. As things stand Kerr is reluctant to play Draymond and Looney together at times because that's two non shooters.
I don't think it's crazy to ask a basketball player to make an elbow jumper reliably in real games. There's no such thing as a basketball player that the team "doesn't need" to be a shooter. There are players we accept are not very good shooters and play them for their other skills, like Looney, but that's not nearly the same as "not needing" him to score.
Hate to bring fruit cake to a cocktail party, but how much has Durant's close association with Kyrie caused his value in the league to decrease, dare I say plummet? Leaving the Warriors, KD was one of the most sought after free agents to ever hit the market. He's old, but he ain't that old. He's got 4 years on his contract, and despite the dollars, I would say it's a safe bet he plays to the value of the 4 years. Being somewhat moody and possessing a wandering soul aren't qualities that have ever deterred a front office from signing a great player. My guess is that, by riding the Kyrie Irving Magic School Bus, KD has tainted his own value to the equivalent of:
I think this is true only insofar as Kyrie has hurt the team and cost them a chance at deep playoff runs and rings. That hurts Durants' legacy and his perceived value as a postseason superstar. Otherwise, I agree with Trogdor, Durant's hurt his own market value with his lack of commitment.
Yeah, I disagree with this. I don't think that KD's friendship with Kyrie has hurt KD's value. I think the only thing that may really be hurting KD's value is his own pattern of (dis)loyalty to teams. I don't even hold it against KD, as he shouldn't feel beholden to stay in a situation that he doesn't want to (although I disagree personally with his decision to leave the Warriors).
I think any team looking at KD is thinking "okay, if we trade for him we 'only' have him for the length of his contract, and no longer than that. If the guy is willing to leave OKC when they loved him, leave the Warriors when they were title favorites every year, and force his way out of Brooklyn when they literally bent over backwards for him, what chance do we have of keeping him past the end of his contract?"
Then the question becomes, is it worth mortgaging the future of your team in order for a KD rental? Okay, we'll call it more of a KD lease since it's a relatively long term rental.
So if you're acquiring KD you need to be in "win now" mode, because there's no building around him (because of both age, and the likelihood he'll leave at the end of his contract, if not sooner). Accordingly, you can't give up your "win now" pieces.
Brooklyn is demanding "win now" pieces in exchange for KD. KD is talented enough that I don't think people really care that he's friends with Kyrie. What they do care about is making sure that they can win.
Brooklyn's demanded price (coupled with the recent price for Gobert as E2148 pointed out) essentially makes this an impossible trade. any team trading for KD needs to be able to be a championship contender post trade. Brooklyn's asking price for KD is so high that it will take a team out of championship contention by giving in to the asking price.
I see no way that KD gets traded before the start of the regular season, and very little chance he gets traded during the season. It's much more likely he'll get shipped out after a season or two when his contract is shorter, and therefore the asking price for him is smaller.
I agree with most of your reasoning, but I'm less convinced that whoever acquires Durant will get him for the length of his contract. That would be great, as he's got four years to go. But the whole reason someone besides the Nets can even think about having him is that he's trying to get away from them, even though he has a four-year contract. All that contract seems to mean is that he's going to get paid a LOT of money by someone for the next several years. But whether a team trading for him will have him for the length of that contract is only a guess. He can always decide he'd rather be elsewhere and try to force a trade.
Disagree. He still has a lot of value as a player, I think what Utah got for Gobert though inflated KDs value to a point where it’d be silly to trade for him and essentially blow up your team.
1. Looney good, fusho 2. But not great, let's not get carried away here. NBA players who are not notably better than I am at passing, shooting or dribbling never quite impress. Be nice if Looney could develop a modest dependable shot like a David West mid-range that he could knock down consistently and confidently, or a couple of post moves to count on. 3. Pat Connaughton was mentioned with a bit of a shrug here, but the guy was a starter through the playoffs for a championship team, and has averaged 44-36-80% shooting which ain't bad. He's a scrapper. Can't really compare him to Looney because they don't play the same game.
OK, I'm being a jerk but that was funny. Also everyone in the NBA, college and high school, possibly middle school is not better than I am at anything basketball related. I'm 57 years old, or as it's called "One Udonis Unit."
Eh, he's pretty great. It's all somewhat relative to the 30th pick here, but he just played a huge role in that title run, and what he does is not easily replaceable.
His per 36 in the playoffs matches up with Bam, Gobert, Horford, JJJ, or RW3. Scores less, but rebounds more and assists more. Was incredibly efficient and matchup proof. Just an incredible run by him.
"relative to 30th pick" is exactly right, and fair. If you are really claiming you would not trade him right now for Bam, Gobert, JJJ, then I'm not sure we're talking about the same sport, his playoff 36 notwhitstanding. Put Bam on the Warriors instead of Loon and we might not ever lose again. Hyperbole is fun, but that's my comeback. I want Comeback Commenter of the Year for that one.
>If you are really claiming you would not trade him right now for Bam, Gobert, JJJ, then I'm not sure we're talking about the same sport, his playoff 36 notwhitstanding.
I didn't claim that. I just said he was hanging with those guys this postseason in terms of impact an effectiveness. There's big caveats that his game probably only works to that effectiveness here and very few other spots, and he plays way less minutes then those other guys.
But those caveats can be true, and so can this statement: he played like an elite C in the playoffs, and that was a critical factor in the Warriors 4th title.
I bet Loon is notably better at dribbling, passing, and shooting than you. :-P
I dunno about dependable, but Loon has occasionally flashed a competent “Kevon Durant” mid-range shot. And I wouldn’t totally preclude him mixing in a semi-credible 3-ball at age 26. He did shoot .415 from 3 in college (in a smallish sample, 22-53). And lots of NBA bigs develop three-point range relatively late in life. Chris Bosh, for example, never hit more than 12 threes in a season until his 10th NBA season.
For sure. He may be *capable* of producing more, he just hasn't developed either the shot or the confidence. I just think if you're in the NBA for six years, that's a developable skill. Like free throws. I'd LOVE to see Looney trend anywhere at all in the Bosh direction. Hopefully we see Wiseman come out and play well enough on D that we can watch his offense; because there's a guy with some skills.
And this maligning of my dribbling does not go unnoticed. Also I once made two -- NO, correction!! THREE straight three pointers in an empty gym.
We did see his free throw shooting mechanics change slightly last season (that little chicken wing elbow tuck) so that's evidence of some improvement/work no?
I've always said I'd be more than happy to take the vet minimum to be the 15th man on the team and not be listed on the active roster every single game. Nobody would be a better benchwarmer and more supportive teammate than me! I'd take my celebrations extremely seriously.
My one worry is Kerr's philosophy of playing everyone. I think I'd definitely force him to make an exception to that rule really quickly.
I've thought about this as well. I can add value as a mentor off the court in other ways as well and would consider guiding these young guys a fiduciary responsibility. $1.6M is tiny by NBA standards, but I think our family would find a way to make it work.
As for Kerr playing everyone, I'm not too concerned. At 60+ and 5-4, I'm not thinking he'd be all that tempted.
Getting angry at the players for asking for more money is akin to blaming the rising costs of a Big Mac on the fact that the burger flipper makes $15 an hour.
Yes, the sheer numbers are VERY different, but the concept is the same; the economic constraints in these situations come from owners unwilling to give up on their astronomical profit margins in order to compensate laborers at a higher rate.
Yes, Lacob has been amazing thus far as an owner, but he's still constrained by the CBA and what ALL the owners have collectively decided. Yes, most franchise owners don't make a huge amount off of their individual restaurants, but they're constrained by the ultimate McDonald's corporate directions.
It's easy to place outrage on the face of the business (e.g., the players, and the fast food workers), but ultimately this is an ownership issue, not a player issue.
Supposedly Draymond is asking for a *max extension* which starts at 125% current salary for 4 additional years, not a max contract. The difference is quite large, roughly 30M a year vs. 40M a year initially.
The value that Steph, Dray, and Klay have brought to the Warriors, let alone the NBA, has far exceeded even twice their combined salaries so far. This is due to the portion of the CBA that the owners have insisted upon, imposing a collective discipline on themselves, via cap and tax and max salaries, to share as little of the revenue with players as possible. From the players' point of view, running up against the cap is a problem that the owners have to solve. Ownership wants to force players into moves such as what Harden just did, which amounts to breaking solidarity with the interests on his own side and yielding to the owners' artificial constraints.
Like the username. Is your drummer Dray Cool?
This is an important distinction. Essentially Draymond is (allegedly) asking for a standard raise, and claiming (rightfully, in my opinion) that his past performance justifies the raise, and asserting (understandably) that he believes his future performance will earn it.
As you alluded to, team values (especially the Warriors) have ballooned much faster than the increase in the cap. Owners (as a whole) are making bank. One of the problems is that we see player salaries and think "I can't believe so and so is making x amount to play basketball!!!" when we can't simultaneously see how much the owners are making for the pleasure of paying x player to play basketball for them.
The Harden situation is so much different than this situation.
Bottom line: we cannot have 5 max players on this team.
Dray should want to do what Hardon did. Hes still filthy rich...his familys familys family is still set for life for generations...which is a bit sickening tbh lol
Lacob is even more filthy rich, why should any player sacrifice for him so that he saves some millions in luxury tax?
Think about it this way: there's a cap on what the players can make for their labors. There is NO cap on what the owners can make off of the players' labor.
Regardless of whether or not he's already wealthy, how much money has Lacob made as a direct result of Draymond and co. winning. The answer? A heck of a lot more than Draymond is (allegedly) asking for.
Just take away the numbers (which are all Monopoly money) and just look at the dynamic of employee vs. CEO/President/Owner and it's a much different picture than just "rich basketball player not willing to take a pay cut to keep winning ball games."
The Athletic is trying to put out NBA content in July. Draymond hasn't made a statement, hasn't given an interview or put out a request for the max. The Athletic is just trying to speculate as to what may happen, cap/luxury tax-wise, with the roster of most interesting team in sports.... none of this should start blowback on any of the Warriors players, as none of them were quoted, much less even contacted for the story.
fwiw, I think Slater & MT2 have pretty good sources & connections with key Warriors players (& Kawakami is obviously very well connected with their front office/ownership, a perk of serving as their mouthpiece)
but I agree that there's no point in getting mad at Dray (or anyone else) now, in the posturing stage of negotiations
This is very true. This story was the same story a week ago, and a week before that. In fact, the most recent news included in the story is Lacob's interview with AS. I guess you might include w/e Dray's said in recent podcasts or tweets - that he's eager for the date when he can be extended. Dray got the max last contract, too, and it stands to reason that he would expect the max next contract. I'm sure he certainly believes he can be 16-game Dray for five more years.
That being said, the question of what to do about the $530+M projected '23-'24 payroll & tax if Poole & Wiggs get expected extensions on top of if Dray opts-out is definitely a looming one for the Dubs. And the offseason is a perfectly reasonable time to talk about it.
I don’t understand Dray. Honestly. Look back to history: Pippen was paid less than Jordan, McHale wa paid less than Bird. Does someone even begin discussing how crucial McHale and Pippen were for the success of their teams? No. It’s simply an unwritten rule of the show, that the defender is paid somehow less than the scorer.
No matter that, it’s Lacob’s money, so it’s not upon me to argue. I say only that we risk, with that stuff, to be forced to give up Poole AND Wiggins in ‘23. And probably Wiseman, too. All that because of Dray’s max. Let’s think about it.
By the way, Harden, supposedly one of the most self-centered and presumptuous players ever, has just CUT his own payroll. Meditate, gente, meditate. (Think, people, think)
Anyway, It seems that it is all already planned:
- extension for Wiggs, bid between +10 and +20%, this offseason
- extension for JP up to 20 mln, 25-30 if he becomes all star and guts at least three teams in the playoffs with half court shots.
- Dray goes FA next offseason.
Any idea where he’s going to?
Lol he’s not going anywhere Stefano. He’s not getting paid the max but they’ll be a happy medium for both parties is the point
Pippen was criminally underpaid. He's a cautionary tale for players, not a good example for Draymond to follow.
Umm... Dray is paid less than Steph, and will get paid less than Steph even on his max extension. If he turns down the player option, he can get a max extension starting @ $30.7M per year, according to the Athletic. That's far far less than the $52M Steph is set to make in '23-'24.
What’s there not to understand. He’s starting at his highest possible earning potential and the Warriors FO
are setting up the lowball early by claiming they won’t go past a mythical threshold. They’ll go through a song and dance between millionaires and billionaires and eventually they’ll settle on a happy medium, that if asked privately, Draymond would say that’s always the figure they were aiming for.
I don’t understand that song and dance. Shall it be because I can’t hear the music. I suppose that millionaires think very differently than me, but I’m pretty sure that if I should become a millionaire (I will never) I would think differently. Very differently.
I don't think you would, when your bosses would be billionaires. You would be wondering why you have to sacrifice your earning potential so that they can save a few bucks, and rightfully so.
Knowing myself from a literal lifetime, I am pretty sure of what I say. I would be different, because i am different already in my own limited world. I won’t start making examples, but I know what I’m talking about.
No need to speculate or even care what Dray will get in the future. It's none of our business and will not affect the situation at all. He's already set for life and so is his family's family's family for generations. All of this will seem meaningless after China shoots down Pelosi's plane over the S. China Sea and the west never sees another made in China product. The US economy is in serious trouble but you'd never know it by the salaries these guys get.
Since we're going way OT with this, I hope Pelosi doesn't take that trip; I think it's a mistake. But if she does, she won't fly over the South China Sea. That's to the SW. She'll come in to Taipei from the NE, over Japan and the East China Sea. Of course, the Chinese could try to shoot her down there too.
Since we're waaaaay OT, safely hidden into this thread until Eric Apricot will find out and ban forever us and seven generations of our descendants, let me call this to you in name of all free thinkers of the overseas countries: You have our blessings to do whatever is needed to set Brittany Griner free, but you should really set Julian Assange free in exchange, not a weapon dealer. It sounds like "choose, Barabba or Jesus." all over again.
What a bizarre trade that is. What was she thinking when she took the cannabis oil and vape out of the U.S? How dumb can you be. You have to obey the laws of the country you are in. There is a good chance she might be given time in jail, but it is rather a petty matter exacerbated by the rhetoric of the US towards their 'arch enemy', Russia. In Thailand, it is now legal to buy/sell/use cannabis in all forms. It's exploded here with shops, restaurants, and online sellers offering top shelf products. Everyone is now stoned
The Russians want their boy Viktor Bout. They have no use for Assange. But we don't have Assange yet anyway, the British have him. He is appealing his extradition.
OT:OT:OT: here we call it the 'west philippine sea' :)
great surf during amihan (cali winter) on the west coast of northern luzon
taiwan isn't even allowing transit visas for flights connecting through taipei, but eva air is selling flights that connect there. when will covid end?
See Nancy has this trip all wrong. She should go to Northern Luzon in the winter for surfing, not Taipei in the summer!
Everyone worrying about Draymond I'm not. Would be foolish to even consider giving Draymond a max, ideally kuminga will be the starting 4 by the time dray has to opt in, while the defense might slide some....the offense would be dramatically better . Def want dray back but if he is being selfish that's on him, I expected him to take a serious pay cut and team friendly deal but as he said about kd .....he thinks he is some elite business man, go and play without Steph he will be completely exposed
Of course, Draymond should believe he should get the max. The Warriors can agree that he deserves it. But the organization can't pay everyone under the stupid current CBA luxury tax rules that penalize home-drafted and developed talent. The Big Stars should take less to keep the gang together.
He’s not getting max offers either way, from the Warriors or anyone else.
I’m with you, tho. I want to keep everyone, but if you twist my arm, I’d let both Dray and Klay walk at the end of their deals (at age 34) sooner than say goodbye to Poole, Wiggins, Kuminga, or Moody.
The last I heard Klay wants to play for Kerr for the rest of his career. Of course he expects and deserves to be well paid but I bet he'll take less than the max.
I definitely wouldn’t want to twist your arm then
You’d take the age 34-36 seasons of Klay and Dray over Wiggs 29-31, Poole 25-27, Moody and Kuminga 22-24? I would not.
Even if that means Steph walks?
Steph’s signed for two years beyond Dray and Klay. And we have no idea how he’d react if the team opted to retool the roster at the end of their current deals.
Agree completely with you on this subject. Re-tooling is a fact of life in the NBA. Lacob has bent over backwards to create a dynasty. Nothing lasts forever, but good things can still happen in the future.
I think klays game will age well as far as draymond I have no expectations for him probably after this season
I'm glad I dont have to make these decisions.
Not glad that I'm stressing over them. Really though, who are we going to lose? Such a stressful thought. Only player that we're sure to keep is Curry.
> Only player that we're sure to keep is Curry
You sure about that if they get rid of Draymond?
Sure is pretty strong, but I think Curry would stay. He's under contract, and in his heart, he has to know that Dray won't be worth a max contract. Does he really expect Lacob to cave to protect Green's ego, even if it costs him the future?
I for one would be perfectly intrigued by a starting 5 in 2023-24 of Curry-Moody-Wiggins-Kuminga-Looney (6th man Poole).
Will Curry be intrigued by it though if Draymond and Klay aren't there? That's more what I was trying to get at.
All humans adapt. It's in our DNA.
Who knows. Maybe?
Thinking about life without Draymond and how hard he’d be to replace, it occurred to me that although it might sound crazy, perhaps Looney could develop into Draymond’s role as the defensive signal caller, free safety/help specialist, offensive facilitator.
Other than Steph, Klay, Dray and Iggy, there’s no one who appears to be more well-versed in the Warriors offense or has a higher BBIQ than “Lunchbox Looney”. While he’s currently spending most of his time setting screens and fighting for rebounds, he knows what’s going on around him and where to be. He’s not a big scoring threat, but that never stopped Draymond, Zaza or Bogut from leading the 3-ring circus from the 5. Though the ball doesn’t find its way into his hands very often, he shown the ability to find guys for open shots.
It’s kind of weird to think about quiet, professional Kevon playing the part of wildcard Draymond. For those old enough to remember, it reminds me of when Meadowlark Lemon left the Globetrotters and there was just no way to replace him, but quiet Geese Ausbie stepped in. While there was no replacing Meadowlark, Geese made the role his own and achieved greatness as well.
I've been thinking about life without Dray for years. It's gonna happen but we don't know when. Best scenario fo me is to engineer a trade but I'm not gonna think about it because Dray is here now and now is the only thing that counts in my world.
His wingspan and upper body are huge which is really useful, but he’s always been “undersized”. The reason he was a 2nd rounder is because people though he wasn’t even big enough to play power forward, let along center. Not coincidentally, this was in the days before Draymond, Steph, Kerr and the rest of the Dubs changed the way the NBA game is played.
Far and away, Draymond’s biggest asset is his brain. His BBIQ is elite on both offense and defense, and combines quick recognition and reaction to make it look like he “sees things before they happen”.
Draymond is quick on defense, way faster than Looney. That's how he can play free safety and switch to where he's needed in time. When he needs to he can get down the court in a hurry on offense too, so he can push the tempo. Looney isn't that guy.
> Far and away, Draymond’s biggest asset is his brain.
The brain and the wingspan aren't going away as he gets older, either.
have long felt that Andre's arc offers some insight into how Draymond will age
Andre signed with the Dubs on a deal worth ~22% of the cap, which is about what Dray makes now
ended that stint making ~16% of the cap, which would be like $22M in 2024-2025
And yet his NBA rank by RPM since ‘15-16 has gone:
#13
#22
#110
#68
#114
#84
#137
#LoonBetter
All from the most recent season:
https://dunksandthrees.com/epm
Draymond rated 36th and by far the best defender in the league, Looney...I don't know because I don't want to count down that far. EDIT: Looney was 116th, did not notice the rankings on the right, I feel like they are usually on the left lol.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/
Draymond 31st by Total RAPTOR over the full season, Looney 53rd.
https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-database/
Draymond 43th by LEBRON, Looney 80th.
I wonder where a Draymond clone would be drafted now.
A don’t know why Eric felt like the front office deserves an “A”…a “B” is a good grade!
It's grade inflation. "B" is not good enough. All our players are "A's"
Upcoming grades will be harsher
…and should include an approval from Duby
IYKYK
Motherhood.
Apple pie.
Kevon Looney.
I rest my case.
Kevon is a mother????
A Bad Mother****** at that.
Well that's just not nice calling someone else a bad mother. I'm sure he tries his best. Parenting can be hard!!!
I’ve seen a couple of complaints in the comments about Looney not developing more of an offensive game. I note:
1. Looney has had a LOT of injuries which put him out for long chunks of time.
2. If it were so easy, every non-lazy NBA player would have those skills. People rave about his work ethic, so it’s not laziness.
3. Most NBA pros are actually good at scoring and dribbling. Compare, for instance, Brian Scalabrine, who was talked about scathingly as the worst player in the NBA in his time. And yet, he famously destroyed every non-NBA challenger in one on one play, even in retirement.
So Kevon is probably very good at a lot of basketball things compared to very very good basketball players, but on the NBA court, compared to other NBA players, defended by NBA players, and exhausted by doing the things the team actually needs, he looks bad shooting, creating in the post, etc.
It would take a LOT of development to improve from “very good” to the elite level of “good in the NBA” and it might not even be possible for most humans.
4. Because Looney has shown excellent improvement in other aspects, I don’t think it’s fair to complain that Looney hasn’t improved in every dimension. In fact, shooting and post ups are very unimportant to this team, and to get better than that, he has to take away time he could spend doing other more important things, for instance, becoming an elite rebounder this season with Dejan, which was massive in the playoffs.
5. The fact that he spent time developing as a rebounder and one-on-one defender of smalls means that he has not gotten better at scoring and other glamorous aspects that get players paid, so it’s a tribute to his team-first approach, not a sign that he’s letting down the team.
My memory is that Looney used to have a little bit of a mid range jumper but he has pretty much stopped shooting it unless the shot clock is expiring as the team doesn't need him to shoot.
🙏🏻
If I may add, it's not even true that he didn't improve in areas people want him to. It was observed somewhere on this board during the playoffs how he now has a pump fake and seems to have improved at finishing under the hoop this season.
Amen to this, I am surprised that Looney's improved finishing doesn't get mentioned more. I remember in years past not having any confidence in Looney hitting a contested layup under the basket, he's come a long way
Agreed, the eye test says Loon was reliably finishing layups in the playoffs - I recall being pleasantly surprised at the development. I think it tapered off vs Boston, but I'm sure Boston's personnel had something to do w/ that - all the Dubs were getting swatted in that series
It hasn’t shown up yet in his efficiency. He was right at his career TS%
Deep breaths... fans gonna complain. You're not going to stop them.
Eric Apricot has to just write the E1P ‘what made the fans stop complaining’ and lo it will be so,
Explain1Protest
OT: Aron Baynes headed back to Australia.
I guess his workout didn't go well (but, that's just speculation).
https://twitter.com/WindhorstESPN/status/1552369419845861382?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1552369419845861382%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fnba
Honestly I’m just glad he’s alive with all his limbs. That’s a miracle into itself
There was an article I read a few days back that mentioned his workout and just some of the descriptions used by those in attendance made me think that he probably wasn’t going to get signed
OT: new article from the athletic. Dray wants a max extension, which we likely won’t pay. It might be time for another Pat Murray pod to calm us down!
https://twitter.com/anthonyvslater/status/1552295394767319040?s=12
His thoughts are that the Warriors should not give out any extensions that aren't clearly team friendly until the new CBA is agreed upon.
Of course he wants it. And since he’s Draymond, he says it. And will likely say it many times. But I just see this as part of a negotiation. Dray wants to stay with the Dubs. He also wants the biggest contract possible. We’ll see what he gets. My prediction: he stays with us and gets a pretty nice but not a max contract.
I agree that he wants to stay with the Dubs and it’s also a negotiation tactic of a first stake in the ground that he can come down from. I also think he REALLY wants an extension so he doesn’t have to be in the situation where he’d have to call the Warriors bluff and test free agency. In a world where all the good teams are capped out, how much of a market is there for a 34-year-old who’s an incredible fit on the Warriors but a questionable fit pretty much anywhere else?
most likely the teams who would afford it and best benefit from Draymond's vet experience would be a young team who hasn't entered the territory of maxing out 2+ players yet, like Phoenix (CPIII) and Boston (Horford) a couple years ago.
I wish Dray would do what Harden did, re. contract.
I guess this is the current thread. Re-posting from the other one:
My prediction.
Lacob is a business man. He knows that (1) the Cap is going up significantly the year after the big extensions would hit, and (2) how to amortize money and distribute it across multiple years. He gave Myers a pretty clear message to cut payroll this year, and Myers did. They will have a lower payroll than they did last year after taxes. He also knows that once the cap goes up, they will also end up with a lower payroll. So, he will be willing to take the hit to extend everyone for one year, and amortize out that cost over multiple years, including this year's payroll.
Honestly, Dray opting out into an early extension at a $3M raise above his option is probably a good thing long term for the Dubs. If Dray were to go into UFA in the same year the salary cap gets a huge bump, there will be LOTS of teams with money to spend, and the Max could go up to $50M+/year. There's a high probability he would end up earning a contract well in excess of $33M+ in the first year. Yah, the extra $3M+ hurts in the year where you're paying almost an 8x multiplier in luxury tax, but the long term money saved most likely offsets it.
This is a great prediction and I forgot his free agency would be under the new, bigger cap, but as I replied in the post above, I just don’t see a big market for him.
Yea... from the sounds of it a lot of players might try to extend only through 2025, waiting for new media deal money in summer of 2025.
However, the NBA may try to smooth the cap increase so that we don't get Mozgov silly business again.
where the calculus gets a bit weird is people expecting the salary cap to grow faster than salary increases (I think 8%?).
That said, 1) only competitors will sign Draymond, and 2) it'll have to be a young team who hasn't had to go crazy paying (multiple) stars yet, kind of like the suns with Chris Paul and Celtics with Horford, where they really benefit from the veteran experience.
I think we keep on to Draymond... but it'll be more expensive than many of us here anticipate, simply with the cap increasing so much (saw that it might be ~10%/yr for the next few years). My guess is that right now we think Draymond is worth maybe 25m/yr? In two years, add on 20%, that's 30m/yr. It seems crazy, but I think the proper way to think of it is what % of salary cap will Draymond be in that year.
I would guess the Hawks are a team that fits the bill of Draymond suitor: young, has shooting, needs defense.
Dame would love to have Dray on Blazers
I would definitely be interested in hearing Mr Murray's thoughts on this.
Really tangential to this, but somewhat related. It's easy for us fans to go "hey, you're making tens of millions of dollars... what's there to complain about???" I mean, I'd be happy with a fraction of Draymond's salary. Sign me for the vet minimum!
On the other side, the players are looking at the owners and going "hey, you're a billionaire and making billions of dollars off of my popularity! It won't hurt you to give me $40m as opposed to $30m!"
And that right there is one of the more insidious aspects of the luxury tax: relatively speaking any amount of money that a player gives up in order to stay under the tax, or for luxury tax considerations is comparatively a larger amount of money to that player than any associated luxury tax would be to that owner.
Now whether it's the players or the owners, it's all in ridiculous Monopoly money figures and it's hard to really say that any individual is actually "worth" the amount they are receiving for either playing basketball or for owning a basketball team, but (and I haven't actually run the numbers on this but I'm fairly certain that it's correct) the luxury tax ends up hurting players more than it does owners when comparing it relatively.
I think that the luxury tax being more injurious to players than to owners was totally intentional and part of the reason that the owners lobbied for it.
Draymond and Lou Williams talking about the luxury tax on his recent podcast:
<some background discussion on how much GP2 would have cost Warriors to keep>
DG: "And I think that's something that has to be figured out in this next CBA"
LW: "Well they told us the last CBA, don't sign that shit"
DG: "They did! And we sign it every time!"
LW: "They told us in plain English, the middle is getting wiped out, if y'all sign this deal. And we was like ehh alright, and we did it"
DG: "And we did it and the middle getting wiped out"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDBXt0dVx5w starting at 22:40
I doubt LeBron, et al care about the middle anywhere close they care about what they deserve for what they do for the league.
Yeah the middle getting wiped out is real. As I said elsewhere, I think one solution is letting any player making under x amount ($10m?) Not count against the cap.
I somewhat disagree. Owners are greedy for sure But half of BRI goes to players, no matter what the luxury tax a team pays. What I mean to say is that luxury tax doesn't directly impact BRI.
Now you can argue that players should get more than half the BRI. or that owners shouldn't treat it like a business. Owners are rich like a hell so may be there is merit to that argument.. But same would apply to top 50 players in NBA who have become rich like hell through their hard work and unique craft. 200 least paid players would surely like bigger piece of player's part of BRI pie as they work extremely hard as well.
"owners shouldn't treat it like a business. Owners are rich like a hell so may be there is merit to that argument." I think not. Did you watch Igoudala and ET's recent "Point Forward" interview with Joe Lacob (the one that got Lacob fined)? Lacob talks about how they financed Chase Center. They were way over their heads because the cost basically doubled. They had to get creative to pull it off, and it worked, but doing projects like that, they'd be fools not to treat the team as a business. At the same time Lacob said his ownership wasn't about making money (he already did that), it was about winning. So at least for him, he runs it as a business so he can keep it successful and win.
I agree with that Owners have to atleast run it as a break even business.
It was kind of interesting that Lacob said that during Oracle days, all the profits went to build Chase.. But now all the profits are going towards paying the salaries of players, coaches, et al. But what wasn't captured was that Lacob and Co can (and did raise) raise money by selling a stake in now highly valued franchise. Players definitely would like a stake in that. But that will be inequitable across 450 players and unlike traditional businesses, you need your competitors to put a product out there. And that is why Dray (and others) want max numbers because in their view team can sell a stake and pay luxury tax.
But why should it be half? Why not 25%? Why not 75%? Why not 100%?
It's limited to half because the owners and players collectively bargained that it should be half, among other agreements and restrictions.
Yeah. Percentage can't be fluid year to year. I think Players pushed the owners to get to 50%. Can they get it beyond that in next CBA? - I doubt it.
This. The whole point of luxury taxes and salary caps are to keep player salaries under control and make more money for owners.
Pretty much.
Good luck finding anywhere close to that on the open market, Dray$.
I’d be pretty surprised if post age 33 Dray gets offered more than the MLE, from anyone.
Portland?
Portland is going to be capped as will be almost any other team that Draymond might want to play on. The one wild card I can see is the Pistons depending on how much Draymond wants to go back to Michigan. They can easily create cap space and he will get to play with an extremely talented young core ... and they didn't draft a power forward.
But would a team give him a big contract to take him away from the Warriors??
I expect more than MLE, but less than Max
Same. I could totally see multiple teams giving him somewhere in the neighborhood of 15m-20m annually.
I could also see the Warriors offering Draymond less than this, even knowing what his other offers are, and letting him walk.
The reality is, they've got Poole, Wise, Moody, Kuminga to pay, and re-signing Klay and Draymond are lesser priorities. Unless one of these young picks flame out (and thus doesn't need a new contract), the Dubs have to see what they will turn into. High picks don't come that often, and having four with significant potential is even rarer.
Maybe. I imagine a lot will ride on how he looks next season. My sense is there’s a fair amount of recency bias at play with Dray, from the fact the Ws won the ‘chip with him playing really well in the one-game sample of the close-out game. But I think Looney outplayed Dray in the playoffs overall; and at 26 is pretty good bet to be at least as good an overall player as 32-35 y.o. Dray over the next 3-4 seasons. And Loon commanded a modest 3/$25M this offseason, with the third year only partially guaranteed.
I don't think that's an apt analogy. I have sung many paeans to Looney and he can replicate some of what Draymond does on the defensive end but he does not open up Steph's off-ball game like Dray can on the other side and just isn't the passer Draymond is in general. Even though he's a non-shooter, he would have value to other teams on both ends of the floor which means he's going to get paid noticeably more than the $8m or so AAV that Loon got.
We’ll see. Guys in their early-mid 30s often go from “he’s going to get paid noticeably more than $8M” to scrounging for a minimum contract in the blink of an eye. Look at Carmelo Anthony. Or Westbrook, who I think will extremely lucky to find a taxpayer MLE somewhere after this season.
Currys offball game would be less needed if we had someone who's a scoring threat at the 4
It's gonna be a very interesting year for a lot of Warriors, I think... I have a feeling that nobody's getting an extension this offseason. I suppose I could see some players signing a short extension that makes them UFA in the cap spike offseason, especially Poole since he would be able to lock in "generational wealth" career earnings before the upcoming season.
To your point, if Loon, Wise, and Kuminga look great... it's a lot less pressure to keep Dray at all costs.
Looooney!!!
Love the takeaway and the re-grade!
The man’s an F’ing giant!
Aside from Looney’s game which is celebrated so well here, I just love his attitude. Is there a more team first player? He’s up there with Steph. Loon always does what is needed, or steps aside when asked, with a smile on his face. Not just a professional but a good warm soul. I’m really happy he found a way - and did the work - for his game to fit into the puzzle that is the Dubs system.
I don't have much platitudes for Loon that Apricot and other posters in this thread haven't already expressed (shoutout to PhysiaPete and Phood Fight), so I will just say that if there are still folks who don't believe that Looney is a foundational piece of this championship team and an absolutely crucial component to their success, you can come fight me in Temecula. Looney is the kind of dude who saves his best play for the most important moments and always elevates his game when called upon. It's why his teammates and his coaches love him so much. He's a consummate professional and I love watching him play. Couldn't be anything less than an A pick.
I’ll fight you where’s Temecula? Look I already agree with all the points made about his sturdy approach,
his mental toughness, his team defense, his screen setting, his lack of ego. And I think that what you mean by “consummate professional” is something like has the right attitude,
shows up on time, works hard doesn’t complain, all of which I see and celebrate.
But isn’t part of professionalism working on every facet of one’s game? We’re allowed to admire and critique the same guy. In this case I find it frustrating that Looney hasn’t found any way to score reliably. He’s in the gym and on the court for six years — where’s the reliable midrange shot or pivot move that doesn’t look painful or clang off the rim? Hasn’t Steph shown us that true professionalism includes adding tools to the toolkit every year? If Looney could make an elbow shot reliably, that would help a ton. I’m sure he’s practiced every kind of shot probably ad nauseum — but the results have not been there. He needs to work on that to get both my thumbs up because right now it’s only one thumb.
every shot looney takes is one less shot for curry/klay/poole/wiggins. a doctor doesn't need to fly a fighter jet, and a pilot doesn't need to perform brain surgery. players have specialized skills the team needs. training them all to do everything is redundant, and makes them worse at their specialty.
Right but if he's on the floor he's going to be left open. And a wide open Looney who can hit at a high percentage is actually a better shot than a contested Steph 3. Then if he can establish any kind of threat, that opens things up for others. It's the five-out strat, I didn't invent it.
But if Looney is wide open and he does a handoff to Steph then Steph is wide open. Which is better than Looney or Embiid or pretty much any big being wide open.
Looney showed himself pretty well capitalizing of gold plated scoring opportunities in the Western Conference Finals this year
I thought he was a better finisher inside this year, and certainly was a better rebounder.
Alright, let's fight. I think this criticism of Looney is somewhat nonsensical, TBH. This team doesn't need him to be a shooter, they need him to be a guy who does the dirty work and gets rebounds and sets screens and all of those things that you seem to take for granted and not value as highly as shooting/scoring ability, even though plenty of teams that possess a plethora of guys who can shoot get knocked out of the playoffs every season because they don't have enough guys with the skills and willingness to to defend, rebound, and do the dirty work. It's a thankless job and not every NBA player by far has the mentality to be able to accept that role nor the toughness to do it on a regular basis. And I wouldn't even agree with your assertion that Looney doesn't work on his scoring game, just that he doesn't have many opportunities to show it because the team does not ask him to shoot or score very often as it is not his role. He can finish reliably enough near the rim and has an underrated pump fake that has gotten better every season he has played. Asking him to also become a good mid-range shooter is like saying Steph needs to become a better post defender. Why? That isn't his role. Looney isn't a David West or a Mo Speights, he's more of a Zaza, who was never expected to be much of a shooter or scorer either. If what Loon does isn't enough to garner approval from both of your thumbs, then may I suggest that it is your thumbs that are at fault here, not Looney's performance.
I also want you to acknowledge that Looney scoring reliably would increase his worth to a point that the Warriors would not be able to keep him anymore. Not all players should do all things. Sometimes, it's less beneficial to a team when a player is too good at too many things because it usually means they get more money from another team to take a bigger role. The art in assembling a championship, nay, a dynasty-level roster is to find players that fit together perfectly and whose skills complement each other, not players who can all do everything well, because there is no way that team could ever be kept together beyond a season or two.
The things that Looney does well are exactly what this team needs the most and the things he does poorly are things that the team has other options for. That's a perfect-fitting piece. If he could do what he does on the defensive end, such as being able to face-guard opposing ball-handlers, which is already incredibly valuable especially in a playoff context, and also was a good scorer, he would be making far more money elsewhere because that is an extremely valuable player.
Indeed we disagree. 1. A guy can be really good at setting screens and all the stuff Looney does well AND shoot well. It's not one or the other. Hey, KD shot well, but no one got mad when he also blocked shots.
2. You're confusing me. You're saying that it doesn't quite matter that Looney doesn't need to score; but yet that if looked at closely, he does score well, his pump fakes and so on -- and yet again saying that if he does score well, he will cost too much. So all at once you're saying that he is someone who isn't scoring well, is scoring well, and is at risk of scoring too well. That seems contradictory.
Effectively what you're saying is that Looney is good, which should lead us to say "good for him," but not that good, which should lead us to say "Good for the FO for balancing the team with the right role players in the right spots." So then it's not a question of Looney's value, but of the FO's smarts, which is a separate topic.
This role player thing is overstated. It's a bug, not a feature. If you can for the same money have an all-star, you don't trade him for a role player. If Looney magically this summer develops JJJ's skills set and uses it in games, exactly zero people in the Dubs universe will be upset.
Looney is not in my mind "exactly what this team needs." He does things well, as I've acknowledged. But he also does things poorly, (like all players) Let's just imagine, for a second, that he could shoot something other than a putback. That would decrease the load on the other guys, increase the scoring because he's gonna be wide open, and make defenders honor him, leaving shooters more open. It's five out ball, which I hella didn't invent, but is insanely effective. As things stand Kerr is reluctant to play Draymond and Looney together at times because that's two non shooters.
I don't think it's crazy to ask a basketball player to make an elbow jumper reliably in real games. There's no such thing as a basketball player that the team "doesn't need" to be a shooter. There are players we accept are not very good shooters and play them for their other skills, like Looney, but that's not nearly the same as "not needing" him to score.
I believe that now. I should have believed it in 2018 tbh
The Loon Lagoon is a low-key and welcoming kind of place, no matter when you pulled your boat into port.
Brilliant
Hate to bring fruit cake to a cocktail party, but how much has Durant's close association with Kyrie caused his value in the league to decrease, dare I say plummet? Leaving the Warriors, KD was one of the most sought after free agents to ever hit the market. He's old, but he ain't that old. He's got 4 years on his contract, and despite the dollars, I would say it's a safe bet he plays to the value of the 4 years. Being somewhat moody and possessing a wandering soul aren't qualities that have ever deterred a front office from signing a great player. My guess is that, by riding the Kyrie Irving Magic School Bus, KD has tainted his own value to the equivalent of:
1 rotation player, 1 1st round pick and 1 1st round pick swap.
You are who your friends are, and this old truism isn't doing KD any favors.
I think this is true only insofar as Kyrie has hurt the team and cost them a chance at deep playoff runs and rings. That hurts Durants' legacy and his perceived value as a postseason superstar. Otherwise, I agree with Trogdor, Durant's hurt his own market value with his lack of commitment.
Yeah, I disagree with this. I don't think that KD's friendship with Kyrie has hurt KD's value. I think the only thing that may really be hurting KD's value is his own pattern of (dis)loyalty to teams. I don't even hold it against KD, as he shouldn't feel beholden to stay in a situation that he doesn't want to (although I disagree personally with his decision to leave the Warriors).
I think any team looking at KD is thinking "okay, if we trade for him we 'only' have him for the length of his contract, and no longer than that. If the guy is willing to leave OKC when they loved him, leave the Warriors when they were title favorites every year, and force his way out of Brooklyn when they literally bent over backwards for him, what chance do we have of keeping him past the end of his contract?"
Then the question becomes, is it worth mortgaging the future of your team in order for a KD rental? Okay, we'll call it more of a KD lease since it's a relatively long term rental.
So if you're acquiring KD you need to be in "win now" mode, because there's no building around him (because of both age, and the likelihood he'll leave at the end of his contract, if not sooner). Accordingly, you can't give up your "win now" pieces.
Brooklyn is demanding "win now" pieces in exchange for KD. KD is talented enough that I don't think people really care that he's friends with Kyrie. What they do care about is making sure that they can win.
Brooklyn's demanded price (coupled with the recent price for Gobert as E2148 pointed out) essentially makes this an impossible trade. any team trading for KD needs to be able to be a championship contender post trade. Brooklyn's asking price for KD is so high that it will take a team out of championship contention by giving in to the asking price.
I see no way that KD gets traded before the start of the regular season, and very little chance he gets traded during the season. It's much more likely he'll get shipped out after a season or two when his contract is shorter, and therefore the asking price for him is smaller.
I agree with most of your reasoning, but I'm less convinced that whoever acquires Durant will get him for the length of his contract. That would be great, as he's got four years to go. But the whole reason someone besides the Nets can even think about having him is that he's trying to get away from them, even though he has a four-year contract. All that contract seems to mean is that he's going to get paid a LOT of money by someone for the next several years. But whether a team trading for him will have him for the length of that contract is only a guess. He can always decide he'd rather be elsewhere and try to force a trade.
Disagree. He still has a lot of value as a player, I think what Utah got for Gobert though inflated KDs value to a point where it’d be silly to trade for him and essentially blow up your team.
So we have Danny Ainge & Minnesota to blame.
Bingo!
I think Minnesota was foolish in that Gobert trade, but they get a pass from me. They've got lots of good will after the DLo-Wiggins/Kuminga trade.
I love fruitcake and don't like cocktails.
I was about to say the exact same thing. I would even go to a cocktail party if they were going to be fruitcake.
That’s not the same thing it’s the opposite
Don't go changing. That's why we love you.
1. Looney good, fusho 2. But not great, let's not get carried away here. NBA players who are not notably better than I am at passing, shooting or dribbling never quite impress. Be nice if Looney could develop a modest dependable shot like a David West mid-range that he could knock down consistently and confidently, or a couple of post moves to count on. 3. Pat Connaughton was mentioned with a bit of a shrug here, but the guy was a starter through the playoffs for a championship team, and has averaged 44-36-80% shooting which ain't bad. He's a scrapper. Can't really compare him to Looney because they don't play the same game.
Asher! I think you are under seriously under estimating Loon's skills... or even the average bench scrub (see "Scallenge").
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRbt9SePLJ0
I was discussing what he has done for GSW, not college.
But can you really look at that Loon footage and say he's "not notably better than I am at passing, shooting or dribbling"?
> But can you really look at that Loon footage
No.
OK, I'm being a jerk but that was funny. Also everyone in the NBA, college and high school, possibly middle school is not better than I am at anything basketball related. I'm 57 years old, or as it's called "One Udonis Unit."
Eh, he's pretty great. It's all somewhat relative to the 30th pick here, but he just played a huge role in that title run, and what he does is not easily replaceable.
His per 36 in the playoffs matches up with Bam, Gobert, Horford, JJJ, or RW3. Scores less, but rebounds more and assists more. Was incredibly efficient and matchup proof. Just an incredible run by him.
"relative to 30th pick" is exactly right, and fair. If you are really claiming you would not trade him right now for Bam, Gobert, JJJ, then I'm not sure we're talking about the same sport, his playoff 36 notwhitstanding. Put Bam on the Warriors instead of Loon and we might not ever lose again. Hyperbole is fun, but that's my comeback. I want Comeback Commenter of the Year for that one.
>If you are really claiming you would not trade him right now for Bam, Gobert, JJJ, then I'm not sure we're talking about the same sport, his playoff 36 notwhitstanding.
I didn't claim that. I just said he was hanging with those guys this postseason in terms of impact an effectiveness. There's big caveats that his game probably only works to that effectiveness here and very few other spots, and he plays way less minutes then those other guys.
But those caveats can be true, and so can this statement: he played like an elite C in the playoffs, and that was a critical factor in the Warriors 4th title.
OK, fair enough.
I bet Loon is notably better at dribbling, passing, and shooting than you. :-P
I dunno about dependable, but Loon has occasionally flashed a competent “Kevon Durant” mid-range shot. And I wouldn’t totally preclude him mixing in a semi-credible 3-ball at age 26. He did shoot .415 from 3 in college (in a smallish sample, 22-53). And lots of NBA bigs develop three-point range relatively late in life. Chris Bosh, for example, never hit more than 12 threes in a season until his 10th NBA season.
For sure. He may be *capable* of producing more, he just hasn't developed either the shot or the confidence. I just think if you're in the NBA for six years, that's a developable skill. Like free throws. I'd LOVE to see Looney trend anywhere at all in the Bosh direction. Hopefully we see Wiseman come out and play well enough on D that we can watch his offense; because there's a guy with some skills.
And this maligning of my dribbling does not go unnoticed. Also I once made two -- NO, correction!! THREE straight three pointers in an empty gym.
We did see his free throw shooting mechanics change slightly last season (that little chicken wing elbow tuck) so that's evidence of some improvement/work no?
Indeed.
I once made three layups in a row. Dubs should start me instead of Wiggins.
I've always said I'd be more than happy to take the vet minimum to be the 15th man on the team and not be listed on the active roster every single game. Nobody would be a better benchwarmer and more supportive teammate than me! I'd take my celebrations extremely seriously.
My one worry is Kerr's philosophy of playing everyone. I think I'd definitely force him to make an exception to that rule really quickly.
I've thought about this as well. I can add value as a mentor off the court in other ways as well and would consider guiding these young guys a fiduciary responsibility. $1.6M is tiny by NBA standards, but I think our family would find a way to make it work.
As for Kerr playing everyone, I'm not too concerned. At 60+ and 5-4, I'm not thinking he'd be all that tempted.
Tony Snell once matched my average stat line in an NBA game