Interesting comment by Jarrett Jack, who was Kuminga's teammate on Ignite:
“The Ignite was his first time playing against a scheme defense. He’d never really seen it before. So, while he’s going to go shoot 1,000 jump shots every day, or whatever, he has to make sure he’s working on the cerebral side too. That’s what usually separates guys.”
"'He has an opportunity to be one of the top two-way guys in the league,.... He has the length, the athleticism and the wingspan to be disruptive on defense. Offensively, he’s still learning how to go about his business on the perimeter. He played a lot of (center) in high school, so he’s used to playing in the trenches. But if he brings that motor to the perimeter side, he’ll be a force.
JK’s a tremendous athlete, has the strength to get into those ‘Kawhi (Leonard) areas,’ like the foul line, the dotted lines and top of the key. He can get to those spots and elevate over people.
He has a tremendous ceiling. And with the guys he’s around, he’ll be insulated and can focus on one or two things and be effective playing a part in winning basketball."
The thing I'm looking for in training camp / preseason is how Kuminga plays when not the primary ball handler. I want to see how well he cuts backdoor and how well he can screen on and off-ball, and if he ends up being a ball stopper if the ball gets swung around to him.
As for Kuminga, apart from the obvious elephant in the room being his jumper, one of the other keys for him might be to transition away from his current archetype of being the primary initiator/shot-creator and become more of a defensive-minded 4/5 who serves as a secondary slasher on offense. He can obviously attack the rim in transition and off cuts, and some postups over smaller guys where he can use his strength to back them down are also probably good. If he starts mastering those, perhaps you could give him more on-ball creation opportunities with the Santa Cruz Warriors (which is something that should likely happen regardless). Defensively if he can become a switchable 5 that obviously opens up a lot of avenues for him to be a very productive NBA player, even if his shot never comes around. He brings just rim protection to be a spot C, and I think he brings enough strength and athleticism for the role too. Mostly it depends on his understanding of defensive concepts (playing C in the NBA is really hard) and his rebounding (do they get killed on the boards with Kuminga at the 5?).
On defense, in general, Wiseman will default to rim protection and Kuminga should work the perimeter. Offensively, all that matters is that they understand how to move on the court. You're not going to take away Wiseman's vertical threat because you want to leave the lane open 24/7 for Kuminga and visa/versa. If they learn how to properly move in the Warrior's system, they should read and react to the open lanes and/or shots that present themselves. Defensively, when together, I think we can agree on their positions. Offensively, I can see Kuminga at the top of the key as a "Dray-like" 4 initiating the offense. I can also see Wiseman in the high post like Bogut, looking for DHOs or teammates cutting back door. And I can see Wiseman spotting up from 3 and Kuminga posting up under the basket. So long as they are settings screens, moving the ball, cutting, hunting offensive boards, exploiting mismatches, then offensively, it's positionless basketball and there is no need to call one a 4 and the other a 5. At least on the Warriors, if giving a player a position, I tend to default to who they are guarding. Offensively, Dray's game doesn't change. But we call him a 5 when he switches onto the opposing center.
Okay, I am obviously avoiding work because that was just gibberish! haha have a good day
One great clip from last year, Wiseman hits Green on a back cut resulting in uncontested dunk. So it has happened once. I will take the Dumb & Dumber position on Wiseman's passing ability: "So you're saying there's a chance." Of course, no way comparing to the super high IQ Bogues, but with Steph and Klay on the floor, that back door is WIDE OPEN sometimes. So it's at least these easy plays that you would like to see him involved in. ESPECIALLY with Green. Opposing teams are so used to Dray having the ball at the top of the key, they will fall asleep on him when the ball out of his hands. It's all conjecture at this point. But his ability to pass is as key to his potential as any other aspect of his game, especially on this team.
He has shown very very few passing flashes. Look at how advanced high level young C passers were at his age (Sengun and Mobley from the previous draft to name a few).
Kuminga could very well be a better rebounding C than everybody but Looney on the current roster. As long as he starts moving while the shot is in the air he’s super explosive to the ball when it’s in his area.
Unfortunately that also speaks to the rebounding deficiencies of this team that they didn't really address in the offseason. It's a small team and the athleticism post-Oubre/Bazemore is mostly limited to Wiggins and two guys who can't legally drink.
They seem to be betting the season on a big leap from Wiseman, hope they are right even if I wouldn't make that bet myself. Team would look a lot better to me if they added Hartenstein though.
I guess we’ll know if the Warriors are full of crap about the Simmons Draymond fit if they play Kuminga with Draymond at all this year. The only difference between Simmons and Kuminga at this point is that Simmons is a better passer and defensive player and Kuminga is willing to take and miss shots that Simmons doesn’t take. Otherwise Simmons has already realized much of what people hope Kuminga will become.
If they play Draymond and Kuminga together, it's because they find something in practice that seems to work that they want to try out in games.
If they end up playing Dray & Kuminga together a lot in critical situations, AND Kuminga is just doing lesser Ben Simmons things, maybe they actually produce some evidence that it could work with Dray & Simmons. But that's a few more ifs on top of the huge mountain of ifs already associated with "Ben Simmons to the Warriors"...
Nope. Kuminga can make free throws. Now. Plus, people "hope" Kuminga will become a more loquacious Kawhi Leonard. Simmons is 25, Kuminga 18. Seven more years of improvement.
So .625 vs .597 FT% trumps .367 GL-FG% vs .560 NBA-FG%?
It’s generally cool how folks embrace Warriors players so hard, but sometimes it gets in the way of effective communication (and it’s not great when the FO shows similar signs with their unproven young players-see Wiseman starting W-L as a reference.)
Even amongst the homerest homers at the Warriors homer convention, Simmons wins by a landslide if the question is: Who's a better player today between Simmons & Kuminga?
But do you really think that's a relevant discussion topic?
Simmons' free-throw shooting post-season in 2021 was under 35%. Not sure what you mean by the rest of your comment. You seem to know more about Simmons than I do (don't watch many Sixers' games) and I never thought he was a viable trade target for the Warriors (I like Wiggins and I liked the completely unpredictable good or bad results from the picks. I like the picks a lot now). Many observers think Simmons' shooting won't get better because he's had years in the NBA to show improvement. I don't necessarily agree, but I certainly believe that 18 and 19 year-olds with good attitudes should be able to grow in all facets of the game, even "athleticism" which can be cultured by plyometrics and other training techniques. As a fan, I embrace "potential" and "hope" as a key element of my basketball watching enjoyment. Thus, Wiseman was often terrible, but occasional flashes of exceptional play let me believe that was more indicative of his future than the bad play. What one hopes is that "past performance is the best predictor of future performance" is only true in a limited sense; improvement is not only possible but inevitable with proper goal-setting, feedback, motivation, coaching and "fit to the system."
[I apologize for the long reply - too much time on my hands]
I love how Warriors fans on here support the players unlike on Twitter and unlike Philly fans traditionally do with their teams.
I hate that same support for allowing Wiseman to sabotage a contender during an MVP Curry year and into the future.
The Nets and Lakers get the experienced winners for free agents because those teams play them over younger players.
The moment the Warriors chose to lose with Wiseman over winning with Looney, they lost access to winning vets until they prove they are once again playing to win.
No free agents were coming to the W's mid-season 20-21. So, this idea that deciding in November-December to play Wiseman hurt the W's FA chances is obviously bull. What hurt was the Klay injury.
As for 21-22 FA's, what hurt was the lack of financial flexibility. Still. even with those limitations, the Dubs did pretty well.
LOL Lakers had 4 players on the roster before signing all those "experienced winners", there weren't even any "younger players" on the roster to play them over.
Nets got ring chasers, plain and simple. Lakers got minutes chasers.
The moment the Warriors chose to let Klay tear his Achilles, they lost Batum (and likely Gasol)... like literally that's what happened last year.
Simmons is an incredible athlete who has been in a toxic situation. Both he and Embiid are at their worst when the Sixers flame out in the playoffs. Embiid because he can’t stay healthy or he fatigues too much. But after every failing Embiid tweets about how they have to do better and references Simmons failings instead of his own, and the media, and possibly Philly fans pile on. It’s understandable how Simmons might struggle mentally in that situation, and how a change of scenery could improve that.
Simmons passing, pace, and D would be a great fit for the Warriors (he shoots a great % at decent volume and has a nice floater game.) The weakness would be off ball movement as he tends to drift to the dunkers spot and go for offensive rebounds. This would actually be a great fit with Draymond but not great with Looney or a disciplined theoretical Wiseman.
True, but I think a big part of the hesitation is that a trade would most likely result in Dray+Simmons-Wiggins... and the subtraction of Wiggins is a huge hole. Whereas Dray+Kuminga+Wiggins could very well be more viable.
> one of the other keys for him might be to transition away from his current archetype of being the primary initiator/shot-creator and become more of a defensive-minded 4/5 who serves as a secondary slasher on offense.
To me the elephant in the room is that this is obviously true but then if it's true and the coaching staff agrees with it, it means he's competing with Wiseman pretty directly and obviously for playing time.
Yeah, and even if it is not true I highly doubt Kerr would put out both of our raw rookies/pseudo-rookie on the floor together.
As for the long-term, I don't think it's much of a concern. If even one of Kuminga/Wiseman hits, that's a pretty good outcome. If both hit, then they'll figure it out as they go along (trades are always available for good players). If neither hit, then we're tanking I suppose.
Kuminga will be the small 5 and Wiseman can work on his lateral mobility to guard the perimeter, improve his catch and shoot game and be the big 3. Totally different positions.
Really it’s that he might be closer to being able to hold up on the perimeter than being able to hold up inside. He either needs to add a ton of strength in his legs and core, weight, and positioning skills to play inside, or he just needs to add lateral quickness and perimeter d awareness for the perimeter. It’s one less thing for the perimeter D
He was fine on the interior physically against most players (Ayton type Cs bullied him, but those are few and far between). And strength is something that can be added more easily than mobility or technique.
To defend on the perimeter, you need to have side-to-side quickness, technique and hip flexibility (being able to move with quicker guards or forwards). I don't think Wiseman has shown any of those (he's really quick in a straight line, but that doesn't really translate to half-court defense that much). Good switching C prospects usually show some or all of those traits at a young age.
That's not a death knell for Wiseman as a prospect (far from it), but it is a limitation. For him to succeed, we need to simplify his role (big in a drop coverage to offer rim protection and rim runner who has the liberty to take 3s offensively). Giving a raw 19-20 year old guy a super complex role (especially as C might be the hardest position to play in the league from a defensive perspective) really set him up to fail last year and will not go much better this year (and this goes for Kuminga too).
Per Cleaning the Glass, among players with 1500+ minutes this past regular season, the highest offensive On/Offs were:
1. Steph (+15.2)
2. Draymond (+14.4)
That means 2 things:
(a) Steph and Dray were really freakin' good.
(b) Our bench offense was pathetic.
Need Poole and Klay to fix that. If the Collison thing is true and he is added to the roster (and remains the player he was before his premature retirement), we could legitimately have an okay offense with the backup unit (say Collison/Poole-Klay/Poole-Moody/Wiggins-OPJ/JTA-Bjelly). I think people are underestimating how going from league-worst offenses (or close enough) to merely bad would be for our bench units.
That's why I'm way higher on us than most people for the regular season. I sincerely doubt our offensively capabilities in the playoffs against high-level defenses due to no legitimate shot-creation apart from Steph, but we should be pretty good in the regular season.
Once Poole got the keys to second unit, Poole & Baze plus any 3 of (Lee, JTA, Wiggs, Loon), had some great numbers. I thought Poole/Baze at the 1/2 was the key to that success. Exit Baze, but we now have OPJ, Belly, Klay at some point to mix into second unit rotations, and there is no reason our second unit can't jump into the top 10 in league, and I think ultimately top 5. So long as Poole is there, plus 2 mainstay Warriors to help keep the unit tight, then I'm not worried. Those on/off numbers are ridiculous though.
Somewhat true but going from the data, Poole and no Steph lineups were still bad offensively. Listing all the Poole no Steph lineups that played >= 20 minutes this past year:
- .D. Green, .A. Wiggins, .K. Oubre Jr., .J. Poole, .J. Wiseman: ORTG = 108.8, DRTG = 130.9 in 33 minutes. This lineup scored surprisingly well, but couldn't defend a G-League team. For context, this ORTG would rank 25th in the league this past year.
- .K. Oubre Jr., .K. Looney, .D. Lee, .J. Poole, .N. Mannion: ORTG = 103.3, DRTG = 100 in 31 minutes. No idea how this lineup did well defensively, might just be small sample noise. Also, this ORTG would rank last in the league.
- .A. Wiggins, .K. Oubre Jr., .J. Toscano-Anderson, .J. Poole, .J. Wiseman: ORTG = 100, DRTG = 143.1 in 24 minutes. Would obviously rank last in the league
- .A. Wiggins, .K. Looney, .M. Mulder, .J. Toscano-Anderson, .J. Poole: ORTG = 94.8, DRTG = 105.3 in 48 minutes. Last in the league by a countrymile.
- .K. Bazemore, .A. Wiggins, .K. Looney, .J. Toscano-Anderson, .J. Poole: ORTG = 94.3, DRTG = 84.9 in 43 minutes. Last rated offense again saved by surprisingly incredible defense.
So, only 1 lineup scored better than a league worst rate, and that lineup was a complete disaster defensively.
Don't get me wrong, Poole actually improved our 2nd unit's offense significantly, but it is still god-awful and probably the biggest inefficiency in our current team and the biggest reason why we were so bad last year (Steph minutes were good, non-Steph minutes less so).
Each particular lineup's data is super noisy. However, putting those all together (which is ~230 minutes in this sample), surrounding Poole with no-shot creation and limited shooting (at least we rectified that part) will lead to sub-par offensive lineups. I doubt that's controversial.
And the lack of bench offense issue predates Poole. We haven't put up league average offenses without Steph since 12-13 (and yes, that includes Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson led bench lineups). We need to rectify this issue as contending teams are now much smarter and put out elite shot-creators with their bench units. The Nets can put out Harden + shooters, the Suns can have one of Paul/Booker or even Cam Payne, the Lakers can now put out Westbrook + shooters, the Bucks can have Middleton or Jrue, the Jazz have Conley or Spida or even Ingles or Clarkson, the Nuggets can stagger Murray/Jokic, the healthy Clippers can stagger PG/Kawhi etc.
And 5/7 of the lineups you posted include players that didn't play much in the second half of the season (Wiseman, Oubre, Pascall)... nobody's going to argue that the early season bench performance was horrible... and any line up involving Wiseman was going to be offensively horrible anyways (even lineups with Steph)
I'd be interested in the Poole + Baze with 3 of (Looney, JTA, Lee, Wiggins) numbers, since Peter had said they were pretty good.
They’ve improved that “bench offense” significantly simply by not bringing back Wanamisser and Oubrick. In the playoffs when Steph is playing 40mpg and rotations are short, I’m even less worried about bench offense.
I am proposing the ultimate "Be careful What You Wish for" Mega-team mega-trade. Steph-Klay-Dray-Wiggs-Moody-J Dub-Kuminga & Poole all going out. Coming in: Lillard, Beale, LaMelo Ball, Simmons, Davion Mitchell and pick up Marc Gasol, Aldridge, Millsap, Patty Mills & Nic Batum with midlevels and minimums. We get everyone we have had to suffer through trade rumors, draft remorse, and FA pick up hopefuls for the last year and a half. We get everyone that everyone has been crying for that would obviously help make us a Championship team. If they are all so great, wouldn't they be a Championship team on their own? Hell, I'm sold. Heading to Trade Checker now. If I'm not back in 3 days, someone call 911. LOL
FWIW, sfgate is currently running a story by Gabe Fenandez saying there wasn't, and isn't, any realistic chance that the Warriors would consider anything close to the Sixers asking price.
Am I the only one bummed about Millsap to the nets? I wonder how much of the MLE it would have taken to lure him away. Not only would there be one more rotation quality player on the dubs, there would be one less on the nets... 😖
If we end up catching lightning in a bottle w/ Chiozza or Collison I'll eat my words, but Millsap seems like a much surer bet, even though PF isn't really a position of need atm.
I wonder if you folks think that Kevin Love is a better fit for Warriors compared to Millsap?
Assuming he a) gets back to full health and b) gets bought out.
If Love is a better fit, then the Lakers and Nets are filling their rosters and wont have room if/when Love is bought out. (And I know the claim is he is not interested in being bought out, whomever commented that was just posturing for more money, I agree)
Love doesn't seem to want to go anywhere. He's collecting that paycheck -- probably the last huge one. That's his choice and I can't really blame him, but he doesn't look like a guy hungry to play for a championship.
It will entirely depend on the state of the roster at that point... If Bjelica is injured and all the guards are doing great, sure... let's get some Love.
I'm not that bummed we didn't get him ourselves but I am somewhat annoyed at all of these old guys flocking to LA and BKN. Feels like we never had quite this level of shameless ring-chasing even in the KD years (West stands out as someone that could have easily made more elsewhere but guys like Zaza, Javale, and Nick Young don't fit that description as much). Guess the general feeling around the league is that the Nets and Lakers are all but destined for the finals next season; I'll be overjoyed when neither of them make it.
He's solid, but we have enough team building with current roster. Better value for 15th spot on roster is holding out until mid season trade deadline when it may be more important to address an injury or at least have a better understanding of what the team really needs heading into second half.
"Small big" is just not what the team needs. We've got Dray, Looney, Bjelica, JTA, OPJ, and Kuminga already. Team needs as currently stand are: PG/playmaker, and true center. But I'm not sure either is really a strong enough need to justify spending into the MLE already. Likely better to see what could happen toward the deadline.
Come on. Let's get (un)real. Kuminga's a kid with the maturity and drive to learn. Myers just hired some GREAT talent developers. I predict HUGE upsides THIS coming season and postseason. For Moody and Wiseman, too, and Poole. Why wait? Wiseman's just got to get healthy and play a lot more. He's smart, too, and eager. But he's got to fill out. Hopefully, he's been able to hit the weight room and dining table while recuperating. He needs an additional 30 pounds of muscle - hey, if DeChambeau can do it, Wiseman can do it, and Wiseman won't look all that different - just a little less fragile.
So for all you "realists" (pessimists) talking about G-League and development time, it's time to get unreal. Heck, with COVID, fires, smoke, hurricanes, floods, refugee flights from the last dumb war, anti-democratic minorities passing unconstitutional laws, we need a little HOPE.
Mine's on Klay being better than before and the young ones developing faster. Out of nowhere, I tell you. NBA Champs. 2022. Because if I'm going to live in an unreal world, I might as well make it one I can enjoy.
Love it! I like that world. But I wouldn't undervalue the G-League. It's a great place to get your wind up and into game shape and get some 36 minutes a night rhythm going. I don't look at time down there as a demotion. I see it as a great place to take your engine out and blow out your carburetors. Even for vets coming back after injuries. Stash the there to develop? Nah. But short stints down there with specific physical/skill goals? Sure, why not.
I actually think the Ws should use the G-league MORE. I still rue that they didn't start Wiseman there and give him 30 minutes a night for a G-league season (50 games, which would effectively be almost two college seasons) to give him a chance to get used to playing against grown men and work on his fundamentals. There still would have been something like a third of an NBA season to season him there, and while he was gone, the team could have signed a vet big man and probably lost fewer games. Missed opportunity.
That said, I hope they'll take advantage of the G-league for Kuminga, Moody, and any of the other guys (even Wiseman again) they're trying to develop to give them consistent playing time without digging a hole for the big club to climb out of.
I feel like a broken record here, but G-League didn't start until 2/9/2021 last year, and it was only 15 games for each team (plus playoffs), not 50 games:
In related news, Wiseman injured his wrist on 1/30/2021 and couldn't play again until 2/23/2021. And 10-day contracts couldn't be signed till 2/23/2021, so I don't think there's a good way to sign a "vet big man" to fill Wiseman's absence.
Could they have inserted his just recovered self into the middle of the G League season to acclimate to yet another group of teammates & concepts for a 5-10 games? Sure, but I don't think it would have been particularly productive for him or anyone else on that roster (Poole & Mannion included).
Look, with both injuries and COVID, Wiseman had the worst timing last year. Let's please not forget that in an effort to find someone to blame. I guarantee they wanted to send Wiseman to the G-League last year... just like they would have wanted him to join summer league last year and this year.
Fair enough for last year. I'll admit I don't follow the G-league and just looked up the length of the season on the internet. With the considerations you've cited, it's clear that the option wasn't as good as I hoped.
That said, I don't think he'd have had to acclimate to so many new concepts. It's the point of the G-league team to emulate the philosophy and tactics of the big team so that guys can be groomed into them? It's what Poole and Mannion did last year (and the late Alen Smailagic), and having to adjust to new teammates didn't seem a terrible detriment to their development.
I fully agree that Wiseman had the worst timing last year -- just some very bad luck -- and I'm not particularly looking for someone to blame. Sorry to come across that way. I just think they should manage the expectations better this year given that some of those development pathways (all of them?) have been unavailable. YMMV.
While, I 100% agree. He did lose the ball a little on the way up, which is enough for refs to not be able to determine if the contact from LeBron was truly what caused him to miss the dunk.
I've seen far less get called for a foul, but I've also seen some pretty eagle eyed refs make good calls (like a ref I remember that called James Harden for hooking Livingston and trying to draw an offensive foul)
Did you see the shots of Wiseman hanging around summer league? He definitely looks bigger.
I keep having to remind myself that he’s nowhere close to his physical maturity. Then I go back and look at the physiques of AD, KG, Duncan, The Admiral and Giannis when they were 19-20 and I wouldn’t trade Wiseman’s for any of them.
I was too busy admiring his hair - a fine and distinctive look for the youngster. Glad to hear that's he's added some bulk. Even if he's naturally lean, the muscles will help prevent injury and the weight work will strengthen ligaments and bones.
A fine physique doesn't necessarily translate into basketball skills. Recalling Damien Jones.
Darren Collison was in the Warriors facility yesterday and will be today. Played some pickup with group that included Steph Curry. Warriors still maintaining an unclaimed 15th roster spot.
Man, here’s hoping. Give me Collison at roster spot #15 over any of the other rumored possibilities. Dude was recently seen putting up *46.8% from three” on over 200 attempts, with a CP3-esque ast/tov ratio. Could be a better version of Patty Mills if he has taken good care of his body over the last couple years. And my suspicion (as a godless heathen) is that his religious fervor/discipline makes it rather unlikely he has spent the last couple years on a debauched bender of booze, twinkies, hookers, and blow…
Open question, tho: would he not relegate Chris Chiozza to full-time in Santa Cruz? Cold-hearted as it may be, if we signed Collison, would it not make sense to eat Chiozza’s contract (if it’s possible) and use the rwo two-ways on either big men or young guys?
💯…I may have too much confidence in Collison after two years away, but I agree. He’s gonna be in shape. He was a better player than Patty Mills two years ago, and I’d expect he’d be about as good now.
I don’t think you cut Chiozza though. He’s good, injuries happen. Having playmaking depth helps if there’s a rough 3 week stretch to get through in March. Grab a big man with that 2nd two-way and the roster looks pretty deep. You can always adjust later if need be.
Which would mean Mulder’s out? Normally, that makes sense, but it’s weird to me how much Kerr keeps name-checking Mulder (and how much Mulder seems to be central to every Warriors off-season scrimmage video).
I hadn't thought about Mulder for the two-way. Maybe they keep both? I agree with you that I'd prefer at least one should be a big man. That's the thinnest spot on the roster.
Mulder vs Chiozza? - I have no strong opinion. I think they're probably pretty close in talent (just different skillsets) and both hit the most important bar of "has proven they can do a couple real NBA things if needed".
There's plenty of young talent on the roster and they even have a solid prospect in Nico developing in Europe. Focus for the two ways I think should be on present day utility. I'm kind of excited to see if they can find the big man version of a JTA/Damion Lee/Mulder. They've done a good job with that tool.
Clearly they moved Jarron Collins to avoid confusion with coaches’ and players’ names. No one wants to re-live utter chaos we lived through with Kerr/Curry
Obviously, JK developing a wet jumper would be ridiculously useful thing. But if his summer league showing as a precocious bully in the paint and on defense holds up in camp, that’s a really useful player who will certainly justify minutes with the big club. If the warriors deploy him as a slasher on offense as Eric described he’s going to amass a mountain of foul call at the very least. If he makes the shots(and free throws) all the better. And if the defense has to bring help, no reason why Wiseman can’t be on the floor with him and receive those easy dunk looks. I, for one, am stoked to see how it plays out.
I think it’s more likely Wiseman starts opening night than he sees a minute in the G League this year. But for sure, if he and Kuminga were to share the floor against G-Leaguers, you’d have to hope for that to devolve into an epic, made-for-YouTube dunk fest.
I really hope they don't start JW on opening night. They already put that pressure on him last year, when he hadn't had a college season, a summer league, or a training camp to prepare him. He'll come into this year having missed the end of last season, with no summer league and possibly no training camp. Why in the world do they keep putting him in high-profile situations rather than letting him develop?
I think it's more likely that Wiseman comes into camp having learned from this year, grown into his body, and earns the "opening night starter" position this year.
This is in contrast to last year, when starting early was given to him as his training camp (since he hadn't had any).
I guess I'm questioning how much development he can have because of the ill-timed injuries and disease. He did get a good part of an NBA season in, but that's really it -- and that comes with surprisingly little practice time. But with the off-season rehab, he can't play in games. I don't think he'll be ready to start by opening night.
Let's not count our chickens before they hatch. You're pessimistic on Wiseman, and excited for the season. I get it. There's still a month and a half till opening night, plenty of time for Klay to tear his rotator cuff and Dray to demand a trade.
yeah, I tend to agree that early on, they will look for small ball 5 opportunities. I think it's the easiest path for consistent minutes, especially while Wiseman still on the mend and they are a little thin at Center. Next, I want to see him take a D rebound and sprint down past mid court then STOP, pass to a guard who will initiate the offense. JK has a 'coast to coast' mentality, he will always default to downhill. I would like to see him get some "be in control" "less is more" reps just so he understands he has an option when the transition isn't there. Draymond is great at this, pushing the ball, maxing out up court, and then recognizing whether or not the transition play is there. I think JK will have more success early on emulating Green, defense, passing & transition. His time at the 3 should be equal to the improvement of his outside shot. The better the shot, the more time at the 3.
I'd like to see him in a structured and repeated team structure before making firm assessments on his ability to stay in control.
He's got the handle well enough that his best play will be "coast-to-coast until somebody stops ball" a lot of the times he gets a rebound. Get the defense rotating in transition, and you've really got a good offensive possession started.
I guess what I mean is that we don't have to worry about JK's nose for the basket in transition or otherwise. That is hard wired into his DNA. At this point JK probably thinks the ball is the most important thing when it's not in the Warriors system. You don't find the best shot by moving the ball around, you find it by moving people around without the ball. So what JK needs to learn is that you could A. drive from the top of the key into 3 defenders and take a contested shot, hoping to get a call or B. get rid of the ball, set a screen and slip hard for a wide open dunk. The first and most important rule in Warriors basketball is that it's not about ball movement, it's about player movement, what you're doing when the ball isn't in your hands. Once learned, the ball will find your hands in better scoring opportunities. The kid is AWESOME with ball in his hands. I love him. But to be great on this team, he will have to learn what is needed when he doesn't have the ball.
JK with the ball in his hands in transition is a problem for the defense. To use your example, if there are three defenders ready to crash on his drive, that leaves 2 defenders to guard the other 4 Warriors. He should be driving to draw those defenders knowing where his teammates are supposed to be to receive his kick out/dump off/lob. Of course, he's got a lot to learn about NBA basketball and the Warriors system to be able to most effectively take advantage of those situations.
To me, Kuminga will go as far as his jumper. He's got all the tools but he consistently (so far) has been incredibly inefficient because he can't hit the reasonable shots he creates. And unfortunately, the FT% isn't suggesting he's a great shooter who was just missing them in game.
In year 1, I think his best bet for success is playing small ball 5, but I think he needs as much G league time as he can get as well. I have a feeling that until one of them because ultra consistent with their jumper, Wiseman and Kuminga can't share the floor at an NBA level yet. But if they do share the floor, there would be 1-2 out of this world highlights a game.
It’s his FT% that will make him playable or not. He’s going to be able to get to the line a lot. If he’s a serious candidate for stardom his FT % will be the absolute first priority. If he’s all ego he’ll spend his time working on long jumpers.
Dubs are very fortunate that the youth movement is full of guys who work hard to earn their minutes and do not act entitled. I have no idea what kind of person Kuminga is, but with Poole, JTA, Lee, Looney, Wiseman, and Moody who we know work hard at their craft, he will not be given much leeway to act like a diva. The kid is setup to succeed if he wants to with the Dubs.
Have you become familiar with Kuminga’s story and heard him speak in sit down interviews? (Dubstalk with Kendra and Grant was great.)
There’s evidence to suggest that he’s as mature, focused and hard-working as any young player we’ve seen join the Dubs. (This was easy to miss pre-draft because everything focused on “talented but raw”. It’s made me far more excited about him than I could have imagined.
Interesting comment by Jarrett Jack, who was Kuminga's teammate on Ignite:
“The Ignite was his first time playing against a scheme defense. He’d never really seen it before. So, while he’s going to go shoot 1,000 jump shots every day, or whatever, he has to make sure he’s working on the cerebral side too. That’s what usually separates guys.”
Whole article:
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/jarrett-jack-sees-incredibly-high-ceiling-jonathan-kuminga
Is that an endorsement or a veiled warning about Kuminga?
I'm voting endorsement. Here's what else he says:
"'He has an opportunity to be one of the top two-way guys in the league,.... He has the length, the athleticism and the wingspan to be disruptive on defense. Offensively, he’s still learning how to go about his business on the perimeter. He played a lot of (center) in high school, so he’s used to playing in the trenches. But if he brings that motor to the perimeter side, he’ll be a force.
JK’s a tremendous athlete, has the strength to get into those ‘Kawhi (Leonard) areas,’ like the foul line, the dotted lines and top of the key. He can get to those spots and elevate over people.
He has a tremendous ceiling. And with the guys he’s around, he’ll be insulated and can focus on one or two things and be effective playing a part in winning basketball."
The thing I'm looking for in training camp / preseason is how Kuminga plays when not the primary ball handler. I want to see how well he cuts backdoor and how well he can screen on and off-ball, and if he ends up being a ball stopper if the ball gets swung around to him.
As for Kuminga, apart from the obvious elephant in the room being his jumper, one of the other keys for him might be to transition away from his current archetype of being the primary initiator/shot-creator and become more of a defensive-minded 4/5 who serves as a secondary slasher on offense. He can obviously attack the rim in transition and off cuts, and some postups over smaller guys where he can use his strength to back them down are also probably good. If he starts mastering those, perhaps you could give him more on-ball creation opportunities with the Santa Cruz Warriors (which is something that should likely happen regardless). Defensively if he can become a switchable 5 that obviously opens up a lot of avenues for him to be a very productive NBA player, even if his shot never comes around. He brings just rim protection to be a spot C, and I think he brings enough strength and athleticism for the role too. Mostly it depends on his understanding of defensive concepts (playing C in the NBA is really hard) and his rebounding (do they get killed on the boards with Kuminga at the 5?).
Kuminga as the point of attack defender or main rim protector will serve him good and keep him engaged
On defense, in general, Wiseman will default to rim protection and Kuminga should work the perimeter. Offensively, all that matters is that they understand how to move on the court. You're not going to take away Wiseman's vertical threat because you want to leave the lane open 24/7 for Kuminga and visa/versa. If they learn how to properly move in the Warrior's system, they should read and react to the open lanes and/or shots that present themselves. Defensively, when together, I think we can agree on their positions. Offensively, I can see Kuminga at the top of the key as a "Dray-like" 4 initiating the offense. I can also see Wiseman in the high post like Bogut, looking for DHOs or teammates cutting back door. And I can see Wiseman spotting up from 3 and Kuminga posting up under the basket. So long as they are settings screens, moving the ball, cutting, hunting offensive boards, exploiting mismatches, then offensively, it's positionless basketball and there is no need to call one a 4 and the other a 5. At least on the Warriors, if giving a player a position, I tend to default to who they are guarding. Offensively, Dray's game doesn't change. But we call him a 5 when he switches onto the opposing center.
Okay, I am obviously avoiding work because that was just gibberish! haha have a good day
> I can also see Wiseman in the high post like Bogut, looking for DHOs or teammates cutting back door.
Does Wiseman have this skillset? Bogut was a great passer.
One great clip from last year, Wiseman hits Green on a back cut resulting in uncontested dunk. So it has happened once. I will take the Dumb & Dumber position on Wiseman's passing ability: "So you're saying there's a chance." Of course, no way comparing to the super high IQ Bogues, but with Steph and Klay on the floor, that back door is WIDE OPEN sometimes. So it's at least these easy plays that you would like to see him involved in. ESPECIALLY with Green. Opposing teams are so used to Dray having the ball at the top of the key, they will fall asleep on him when the ball out of his hands. It's all conjecture at this point. But his ability to pass is as key to his potential as any other aspect of his game, especially on this team.
He has shown very very few passing flashes. Look at how advanced high level young C passers were at his age (Sengun and Mobley from the previous draft to name a few).
Wiseman and Oubre were possibly the least aware passing duo to start in the NBA this decade. That’s what it felt like anyway.
Kuminga could very well be a better rebounding C than everybody but Looney on the current roster. As long as he starts moving while the shot is in the air he’s super explosive to the ball when it’s in his area.
Unfortunately that also speaks to the rebounding deficiencies of this team that they didn't really address in the offseason. It's a small team and the athleticism post-Oubre/Bazemore is mostly limited to Wiggins and two guys who can't legally drink.
They seem to be betting the season on a big leap from Wiseman, hope they are right even if I wouldn't make that bet myself. Team would look a lot better to me if they added Hartenstein though.
I guess we’ll know if the Warriors are full of crap about the Simmons Draymond fit if they play Kuminga with Draymond at all this year. The only difference between Simmons and Kuminga at this point is that Simmons is a better passer and defensive player and Kuminga is willing to take and miss shots that Simmons doesn’t take. Otherwise Simmons has already realized much of what people hope Kuminga will become.
If they play Draymond and Kuminga together, it's because they find something in practice that seems to work that they want to try out in games.
If they end up playing Dray & Kuminga together a lot in critical situations, AND Kuminga is just doing lesser Ben Simmons things, maybe they actually produce some evidence that it could work with Dray & Simmons. But that's a few more ifs on top of the huge mountain of ifs already associated with "Ben Simmons to the Warriors"...
Nope. Kuminga can make free throws. Now. Plus, people "hope" Kuminga will become a more loquacious Kawhi Leonard. Simmons is 25, Kuminga 18. Seven more years of improvement.
So .625 vs .597 FT% trumps .367 GL-FG% vs .560 NBA-FG%?
It’s generally cool how folks embrace Warriors players so hard, but sometimes it gets in the way of effective communication (and it’s not great when the FO shows similar signs with their unproven young players-see Wiseman starting W-L as a reference.)
Even amongst the homerest homers at the Warriors homer convention, Simmons wins by a landslide if the question is: Who's a better player today between Simmons & Kuminga?
But do you really think that's a relevant discussion topic?
Simmons' free-throw shooting post-season in 2021 was under 35%. Not sure what you mean by the rest of your comment. You seem to know more about Simmons than I do (don't watch many Sixers' games) and I never thought he was a viable trade target for the Warriors (I like Wiggins and I liked the completely unpredictable good or bad results from the picks. I like the picks a lot now). Many observers think Simmons' shooting won't get better because he's had years in the NBA to show improvement. I don't necessarily agree, but I certainly believe that 18 and 19 year-olds with good attitudes should be able to grow in all facets of the game, even "athleticism" which can be cultured by plyometrics and other training techniques. As a fan, I embrace "potential" and "hope" as a key element of my basketball watching enjoyment. Thus, Wiseman was often terrible, but occasional flashes of exceptional play let me believe that was more indicative of his future than the bad play. What one hopes is that "past performance is the best predictor of future performance" is only true in a limited sense; improvement is not only possible but inevitable with proper goal-setting, feedback, motivation, coaching and "fit to the system."
[I apologize for the long reply - too much time on my hands]
I love how Warriors fans on here support the players unlike on Twitter and unlike Philly fans traditionally do with their teams.
I hate that same support for allowing Wiseman to sabotage a contender during an MVP Curry year and into the future.
The Nets and Lakers get the experienced winners for free agents because those teams play them over younger players.
The moment the Warriors chose to lose with Wiseman over winning with Looney, they lost access to winning vets until they prove they are once again playing to win.
Lots of tangents I know :)
No free agents were coming to the W's mid-season 20-21. So, this idea that deciding in November-December to play Wiseman hurt the W's FA chances is obviously bull. What hurt was the Klay injury.
As for 21-22 FA's, what hurt was the lack of financial flexibility. Still. even with those limitations, the Dubs did pretty well.
LOL Lakers had 4 players on the roster before signing all those "experienced winners", there weren't even any "younger players" on the roster to play them over.
Nets got ring chasers, plain and simple. Lakers got minutes chasers.
The moment the Warriors chose to let Klay tear his Achilles, they lost Batum (and likely Gasol)... like literally that's what happened last year.
Simmons is an incredible athlete who has been in a toxic situation. Both he and Embiid are at their worst when the Sixers flame out in the playoffs. Embiid because he can’t stay healthy or he fatigues too much. But after every failing Embiid tweets about how they have to do better and references Simmons failings instead of his own, and the media, and possibly Philly fans pile on. It’s understandable how Simmons might struggle mentally in that situation, and how a change of scenery could improve that.
Simmons passing, pace, and D would be a great fit for the Warriors (he shoots a great % at decent volume and has a nice floater game.) The weakness would be off ball movement as he tends to drift to the dunkers spot and go for offensive rebounds. This would actually be a great fit with Draymond but not great with Looney or a disciplined theoretical Wiseman.
Great, so what are you giving up for Simmons?
True, but I think a big part of the hesitation is that a trade would most likely result in Dray+Simmons-Wiggins... and the subtraction of Wiggins is a huge hole. Whereas Dray+Kuminga+Wiggins could very well be more viable.
> one of the other keys for him might be to transition away from his current archetype of being the primary initiator/shot-creator and become more of a defensive-minded 4/5 who serves as a secondary slasher on offense.
To me the elephant in the room is that this is obviously true but then if it's true and the coaching staff agrees with it, it means he's competing with Wiseman pretty directly and obviously for playing time.
Yeah, and even if it is not true I highly doubt Kerr would put out both of our raw rookies/pseudo-rookie on the floor together.
As for the long-term, I don't think it's much of a concern. If even one of Kuminga/Wiseman hits, that's a pretty good outcome. If both hit, then they'll figure it out as they go along (trades are always available for good players). If neither hit, then we're tanking I suppose.
Kuminga will be the small 5 and Wiseman can work on his lateral mobility to guard the perimeter, improve his catch and shoot game and be the big 3. Totally different positions.
Wiseman at 3, problem solved
You would think Wiseman was Okongwu defensively considering how people seem to think he can hold up on the perimeter.
Really it’s that he might be closer to being able to hold up on the perimeter than being able to hold up inside. He either needs to add a ton of strength in his legs and core, weight, and positioning skills to play inside, or he just needs to add lateral quickness and perimeter d awareness for the perimeter. It’s one less thing for the perimeter D
He was fine on the interior physically against most players (Ayton type Cs bullied him, but those are few and far between). And strength is something that can be added more easily than mobility or technique.
To defend on the perimeter, you need to have side-to-side quickness, technique and hip flexibility (being able to move with quicker guards or forwards). I don't think Wiseman has shown any of those (he's really quick in a straight line, but that doesn't really translate to half-court defense that much). Good switching C prospects usually show some or all of those traits at a young age.
That's not a death knell for Wiseman as a prospect (far from it), but it is a limitation. For him to succeed, we need to simplify his role (big in a drop coverage to offer rim protection and rim runner who has the liberty to take 3s offensively). Giving a raw 19-20 year old guy a super complex role (especially as C might be the hardest position to play in the league from a defensive perspective) really set him up to fail last year and will not go much better this year (and this goes for Kuminga too).
Stats I found on reddit:
Per Cleaning the Glass, among players with 1500+ minutes this past regular season, the highest offensive On/Offs were:
1. Steph (+15.2)
2. Draymond (+14.4)
That means 2 things:
(a) Steph and Dray were really freakin' good.
(b) Our bench offense was pathetic.
Need Poole and Klay to fix that. If the Collison thing is true and he is added to the roster (and remains the player he was before his premature retirement), we could legitimately have an okay offense with the backup unit (say Collison/Poole-Klay/Poole-Moody/Wiggins-OPJ/JTA-Bjelly). I think people are underestimating how going from league-worst offenses (or close enough) to merely bad would be for our bench units.
That's why I'm way higher on us than most people for the regular season. I sincerely doubt our offensively capabilities in the playoffs against high-level defenses due to no legitimate shot-creation apart from Steph, but we should be pretty good in the regular season.
Once Poole got the keys to second unit, Poole & Baze plus any 3 of (Lee, JTA, Wiggs, Loon), had some great numbers. I thought Poole/Baze at the 1/2 was the key to that success. Exit Baze, but we now have OPJ, Belly, Klay at some point to mix into second unit rotations, and there is no reason our second unit can't jump into the top 10 in league, and I think ultimately top 5. So long as Poole is there, plus 2 mainstay Warriors to help keep the unit tight, then I'm not worried. Those on/off numbers are ridiculous though.
Somewhat true but going from the data, Poole and no Steph lineups were still bad offensively. Listing all the Poole no Steph lineups that played >= 20 minutes this past year:
- .D. Green, .A. Wiggins, .K. Oubre Jr., .J. Poole, .J. Wiseman: ORTG = 108.8, DRTG = 130.9 in 33 minutes. This lineup scored surprisingly well, but couldn't defend a G-League team. For context, this ORTG would rank 25th in the league this past year.
- .K. Oubre Jr., .K. Looney, .D. Lee, .J. Poole, .N. Mannion: ORTG = 103.3, DRTG = 100 in 31 minutes. No idea how this lineup did well defensively, might just be small sample noise. Also, this ORTG would rank last in the league.
- .A. Wiggins, .K. Oubre Jr., .J. Toscano-Anderson, .J. Poole, .J. Wiseman: ORTG = 100, DRTG = 143.1 in 24 minutes. Would obviously rank last in the league
- .A. Wiggins, .K. Looney, .M. Mulder, .J. Toscano-Anderson, .J. Poole: ORTG = 94.8, DRTG = 105.3 in 48 minutes. Last in the league by a countrymile.
- .K. Bazemore, .A. Wiggins, .K. Looney, .J. Toscano-Anderson, .J. Poole: ORTG = 94.3, DRTG = 84.9 in 43 minutes. Last rated offense again saved by surprisingly incredible defense.
- .B. Wanamaker, .K. Oubre Jr., .D. Lee, .E. Paschall, .J. Poole: ORTG = 93.9, DRTG = 90.2 in 24 minutes.
- .K. Bazemore, .K. Oubre Jr., .K. Looney, .D. Lee, .J. Poole: ORTG = 82.2, DRTG = 104.4 in 24 minutes.
So, only 1 lineup scored better than a league worst rate, and that lineup was a complete disaster defensively.
Don't get me wrong, Poole actually improved our 2nd unit's offense significantly, but it is still god-awful and probably the biggest inefficiency in our current team and the biggest reason why we were so bad last year (Steph minutes were good, non-Steph minutes less so).
Holy Cow is it just my bias, or did the insertion of one rookie tank the D that much?
Rookies are notoriously terrible defenders for the most part, and bad rookie Cs are even worse as C is the most important position defensively.
And to be fair to Wiseman, Looney is a really good defender so his on-off splits were bound to look terrible.
But yeah, he did kill us offensively and defensively last year.
All of that data is super noisy given the small # of minutes. And only 1/7 involve "Poole & Baze plus any 3 of (Lee, JTA, Wiggs, Loon)".
Each particular lineup's data is super noisy. However, putting those all together (which is ~230 minutes in this sample), surrounding Poole with no-shot creation and limited shooting (at least we rectified that part) will lead to sub-par offensive lineups. I doubt that's controversial.
And the lack of bench offense issue predates Poole. We haven't put up league average offenses without Steph since 12-13 (and yes, that includes Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson led bench lineups). We need to rectify this issue as contending teams are now much smarter and put out elite shot-creators with their bench units. The Nets can put out Harden + shooters, the Suns can have one of Paul/Booker or even Cam Payne, the Lakers can now put out Westbrook + shooters, the Bucks can have Middleton or Jrue, the Jazz have Conley or Spida or even Ingles or Clarkson, the Nuggets can stagger Murray/Jokic, the healthy Clippers can stagger PG/Kawhi etc.
And 5/7 of the lineups you posted include players that didn't play much in the second half of the season (Wiseman, Oubre, Pascall)... nobody's going to argue that the early season bench performance was horrible... and any line up involving Wiseman was going to be offensively horrible anyways (even lineups with Steph)
I'd be interested in the Poole + Baze with 3 of (Looney, JTA, Lee, Wiggins) numbers, since Peter had said they were pretty good.
They’ve improved that “bench offense” significantly simply by not bringing back Wanamisser and Oubrick. In the playoffs when Steph is playing 40mpg and rotations are short, I’m even less worried about bench offense.
And source - https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/pgsdkb/why_are_thad_youngs_onoffs_so_absurdly_good/
I am proposing the ultimate "Be careful What You Wish for" Mega-team mega-trade. Steph-Klay-Dray-Wiggs-Moody-J Dub-Kuminga & Poole all going out. Coming in: Lillard, Beale, LaMelo Ball, Simmons, Davion Mitchell and pick up Marc Gasol, Aldridge, Millsap, Patty Mills & Nic Batum with midlevels and minimums. We get everyone we have had to suffer through trade rumors, draft remorse, and FA pick up hopefuls for the last year and a half. We get everyone that everyone has been crying for that would obviously help make us a Championship team. If they are all so great, wouldn't they be a Championship team on their own? Hell, I'm sold. Heading to Trade Checker now. If I'm not back in 3 days, someone call 911. LOL
Draft remorse requires Haliburton and Carter Jr. too, or does Melo trump that?
How many first round picks do the Warriors pick up in those trades? Could be genius if they end up with all the first round picks going forward.
So basically the LeBron team building recipe
Without LeBron
FWIW, sfgate is currently running a story by Gabe Fenandez saying there wasn't, and isn't, any realistic chance that the Warriors would consider anything close to the Sixers asking price.
Am I the only one bummed about Millsap to the nets? I wonder how much of the MLE it would have taken to lure him away. Not only would there be one more rotation quality player on the dubs, there would be one less on the nets... 😖
If we end up catching lightning in a bottle w/ Chiozza or Collison I'll eat my words, but Millsap seems like a much surer bet, even though PF isn't really a position of need atm.
Not even mildly bummed. I’d wayyyy rather have Collison at 34 than Millsap at 37 (6th oldest player in the NBA).
Heck, give me GP2 or Chriss all day over Millsap.
I wonder if you folks think that Kevin Love is a better fit for Warriors compared to Millsap?
Assuming he a) gets back to full health and b) gets bought out.
If Love is a better fit, then the Lakers and Nets are filling their rosters and wont have room if/when Love is bought out. (And I know the claim is he is not interested in being bought out, whomever commented that was just posturing for more money, I agree)
Love doesn't seem to want to go anywhere. He's collecting that paycheck -- probably the last huge one. That's his choice and I can't really blame him, but he doesn't look like a guy hungry to play for a championship.
It will entirely depend on the state of the roster at that point... If Bjelica is injured and all the guards are doing great, sure... let's get some Love.
I'm not that bummed we didn't get him ourselves but I am somewhat annoyed at all of these old guys flocking to LA and BKN. Feels like we never had quite this level of shameless ring-chasing even in the KD years (West stands out as someone that could have easily made more elsewhere but guys like Zaza, Javale, and Nick Young don't fit that description as much). Guess the general feeling around the league is that the Nets and Lakers are all but destined for the finals next season; I'll be overjoyed when neither of them make it.
At least the Nets are (likely) going to be really good. The Lakers are (likely) going to be meh.
Bazemore imho is both a turncoat and a fool for abandoning Steph the way he did.
Lakers gonna be good in regular season tho, right?
Hmm… 47-35, give or take, assuming decent-ish health?
I can see them getting to 52-30 with the talent they have. I have more doubts about their fit and health in the playoffs.
He's solid, but we have enough team building with current roster. Better value for 15th spot on roster is holding out until mid season trade deadline when it may be more important to address an injury or at least have a better understanding of what the team really needs heading into second half.
"Small big" is just not what the team needs. We've got Dray, Looney, Bjelica, JTA, OPJ, and Kuminga already. Team needs as currently stand are: PG/playmaker, and true center. But I'm not sure either is really a strong enough need to justify spending into the MLE already. Likely better to see what could happen toward the deadline.
Come on. Let's get (un)real. Kuminga's a kid with the maturity and drive to learn. Myers just hired some GREAT talent developers. I predict HUGE upsides THIS coming season and postseason. For Moody and Wiseman, too, and Poole. Why wait? Wiseman's just got to get healthy and play a lot more. He's smart, too, and eager. But he's got to fill out. Hopefully, he's been able to hit the weight room and dining table while recuperating. He needs an additional 30 pounds of muscle - hey, if DeChambeau can do it, Wiseman can do it, and Wiseman won't look all that different - just a little less fragile.
So for all you "realists" (pessimists) talking about G-League and development time, it's time to get unreal. Heck, with COVID, fires, smoke, hurricanes, floods, refugee flights from the last dumb war, anti-democratic minorities passing unconstitutional laws, we need a little HOPE.
Mine's on Klay being better than before and the young ones developing faster. Out of nowhere, I tell you. NBA Champs. 2022. Because if I'm going to live in an unreal world, I might as well make it one I can enjoy.
https://giphy.com/gifs/excited-scream-tropic-thunder-HW05UrUSfAzZu
Love it! I like that world. But I wouldn't undervalue the G-League. It's a great place to get your wind up and into game shape and get some 36 minutes a night rhythm going. I don't look at time down there as a demotion. I see it as a great place to take your engine out and blow out your carburetors. Even for vets coming back after injuries. Stash the there to develop? Nah. But short stints down there with specific physical/skill goals? Sure, why not.
I actually think the Ws should use the G-league MORE. I still rue that they didn't start Wiseman there and give him 30 minutes a night for a G-league season (50 games, which would effectively be almost two college seasons) to give him a chance to get used to playing against grown men and work on his fundamentals. There still would have been something like a third of an NBA season to season him there, and while he was gone, the team could have signed a vet big man and probably lost fewer games. Missed opportunity.
That said, I hope they'll take advantage of the G-league for Kuminga, Moody, and any of the other guys (even Wiseman again) they're trying to develop to give them consistent playing time without digging a hole for the big club to climb out of.
I feel like a broken record here, but G-League didn't start until 2/9/2021 last year, and it was only 15 games for each team (plus playoffs), not 50 games:
https://gleague.nba.com/news/2020-21-nba-g-league-key-dates/
https://gleague.nba.com/standings/
In related news, Wiseman injured his wrist on 1/30/2021 and couldn't play again until 2/23/2021. And 10-day contracts couldn't be signed till 2/23/2021, so I don't think there's a good way to sign a "vet big man" to fill Wiseman's absence.
Could they have inserted his just recovered self into the middle of the G League season to acclimate to yet another group of teammates & concepts for a 5-10 games? Sure, but I don't think it would have been particularly productive for him or anyone else on that roster (Poole & Mannion included).
Look, with both injuries and COVID, Wiseman had the worst timing last year. Let's please not forget that in an effort to find someone to blame. I guarantee they wanted to send Wiseman to the G-League last year... just like they would have wanted him to join summer league last year and this year.
Fair enough for last year. I'll admit I don't follow the G-league and just looked up the length of the season on the internet. With the considerations you've cited, it's clear that the option wasn't as good as I hoped.
That said, I don't think he'd have had to acclimate to so many new concepts. It's the point of the G-league team to emulate the philosophy and tactics of the big team so that guys can be groomed into them? It's what Poole and Mannion did last year (and the late Alen Smailagic), and having to adjust to new teammates didn't seem a terrible detriment to their development.
I fully agree that Wiseman had the worst timing last year -- just some very bad luck -- and I'm not particularly looking for someone to blame. Sorry to come across that way. I just think they should manage the expectations better this year given that some of those development pathways (all of them?) have been unavailable. YMMV.
This is so spot on!!!
Yea I feel like the g league should also be used as "rehab games" for vets coming back from long absences like the MLB does with the minors
I just want JFK to dunk on Lebron and his rookie season will be considered a major success!
Poole's got dibs there... if only he hadn't lost the handle on the way up...
He got blatantly fouled on that play
While, I 100% agree. He did lose the ball a little on the way up, which is enough for refs to not be able to determine if the contact from LeBron was truly what caused him to miss the dunk.
I've seen far less get called for a foul, but I've also seen some pretty eagle eyed refs make good calls (like a ref I remember that called James Harden for hooking Livingston and trying to draw an offensive foul)
Did you see the shots of Wiseman hanging around summer league? He definitely looks bigger.
I keep having to remind myself that he’s nowhere close to his physical maturity. Then I go back and look at the physiques of AD, KG, Duncan, The Admiral and Giannis when they were 19-20 and I wouldn’t trade Wiseman’s for any of them.
I was too busy admiring his hair - a fine and distinctive look for the youngster. Glad to hear that's he's added some bulk. Even if he's naturally lean, the muscles will help prevent injury and the weight work will strengthen ligaments and bones.
A fine physique doesn't necessarily translate into basketball skills. Recalling Damien Jones.
Kings extended young Mr Jones, I saw a few days ago.
Yea you beat me to it... he definitely adding some upper body muscles... probably not 30 lbs but it's very visually apparent.
Has he been able to work his legs out enough to support the extra weight? That’s one of the worries about his ability to progress this off-season.
That certainly crossed my mind... if anything, seemed like he needed lower body strength more than anything
I thought so too when I saw him at summer league.
> @anthonyVslater
Darren Collison was in the Warriors facility yesterday and will be today. Played some pickup with group that included Steph Curry. Warriors still maintaining an unclaimed 15th roster spot.
Man, here’s hoping. Give me Collison at roster spot #15 over any of the other rumored possibilities. Dude was recently seen putting up *46.8% from three” on over 200 attempts, with a CP3-esque ast/tov ratio. Could be a better version of Patty Mills if he has taken good care of his body over the last couple years. And my suspicion (as a godless heathen) is that his religious fervor/discipline makes it rather unlikely he has spent the last couple years on a debauched bender of booze, twinkies, hookers, and blow…
Open question, tho: would he not relegate Chris Chiozza to full-time in Santa Cruz? Cold-hearted as it may be, if we signed Collison, would it not make sense to eat Chiozza’s contract (if it’s possible) and use the rwo two-ways on either big men or young guys?
💯…I may have too much confidence in Collison after two years away, but I agree. He’s gonna be in shape. He was a better player than Patty Mills two years ago, and I’d expect he’d be about as good now.
I don’t think you cut Chiozza though. He’s good, injuries happen. Having playmaking depth helps if there’s a rough 3 week stretch to get through in March. Grab a big man with that 2nd two-way and the roster looks pretty deep. You can always adjust later if need be.
Which would mean Mulder’s out? Normally, that makes sense, but it’s weird to me how much Kerr keeps name-checking Mulder (and how much Mulder seems to be central to every Warriors off-season scrimmage video).
I hadn't thought about Mulder for the two-way. Maybe they keep both? I agree with you that I'd prefer at least one should be a big man. That's the thinnest spot on the roster.
Mulder vs Chiozza? - I have no strong opinion. I think they're probably pretty close in talent (just different skillsets) and both hit the most important bar of "has proven they can do a couple real NBA things if needed".
There's plenty of young talent on the roster and they even have a solid prospect in Nico developing in Europe. Focus for the two ways I think should be on present day utility. I'm kind of excited to see if they can find the big man version of a JTA/Damion Lee/Mulder. They've done a good job with that tool.
I thought Mulder can’t go on a 2-way?
As I understand it, Mulder can. GP2 and Chriss (and of course Collison) cannot.
Always good to have a backup plan, just in case.
Let’s go!
Clearly they moved Jarron Collins to avoid confusion with coaches’ and players’ names. No one wants to re-live utter chaos we lived through with Kerr/Curry
Dark times indeed.
Welcome to the Dubs DC ;)
OT but looks like Millsap and Aldridge are on the Nets. If the Nets and Lakers meet in the finals they'll just collide and turn into dust
Their strategy: They can’t *all* disintegrate, right???
Obviously, JK developing a wet jumper would be ridiculously useful thing. But if his summer league showing as a precocious bully in the paint and on defense holds up in camp, that’s a really useful player who will certainly justify minutes with the big club. If the warriors deploy him as a slasher on offense as Eric described he’s going to amass a mountain of foul call at the very least. If he makes the shots(and free throws) all the better. And if the defense has to bring help, no reason why Wiseman can’t be on the floor with him and receive those easy dunk looks. I, for one, am stoked to see how it plays out.
If they're not getting consistent minutes in the NBA, their G League stint together is going to be fun to watch :)
I think it’s more likely Wiseman starts opening night than he sees a minute in the G League this year. But for sure, if he and Kuminga were to share the floor against G-Leaguers, you’d have to hope for that to devolve into an epic, made-for-YouTube dunk fest.
I really hope they don't start JW on opening night. They already put that pressure on him last year, when he hadn't had a college season, a summer league, or a training camp to prepare him. He'll come into this year having missed the end of last season, with no summer league and possibly no training camp. Why in the world do they keep putting him in high-profile situations rather than letting him develop?
I think the point Ben is trying to make is:
I think it's more likely that Wiseman comes into camp having learned from this year, grown into his body, and earns the "opening night starter" position this year.
This is in contrast to last year, when starting early was given to him as his training camp (since he hadn't had any).
I guess I'm questioning how much development he can have because of the ill-timed injuries and disease. He did get a good part of an NBA season in, but that's really it -- and that comes with surprisingly little practice time. But with the off-season rehab, he can't play in games. I don't think he'll be ready to start by opening night.
Let's not count our chickens before they hatch. You're pessimistic on Wiseman, and excited for the season. I get it. There's still a month and a half till opening night, plenty of time for Klay to tear his rotator cuff and Dray to demand a trade.
Is that a coaching or front office decision? G-League is a significant step up from summer league right?
Is it too early to get DJ D Sharp to mix a dubs version of Phi Slama Jama?
Agree, of course.
yeah, I tend to agree that early on, they will look for small ball 5 opportunities. I think it's the easiest path for consistent minutes, especially while Wiseman still on the mend and they are a little thin at Center. Next, I want to see him take a D rebound and sprint down past mid court then STOP, pass to a guard who will initiate the offense. JK has a 'coast to coast' mentality, he will always default to downhill. I would like to see him get some "be in control" "less is more" reps just so he understands he has an option when the transition isn't there. Draymond is great at this, pushing the ball, maxing out up court, and then recognizing whether or not the transition play is there. I think JK will have more success early on emulating Green, defense, passing & transition. His time at the 3 should be equal to the improvement of his outside shot. The better the shot, the more time at the 3.
I'd like to see him in a structured and repeated team structure before making firm assessments on his ability to stay in control.
He's got the handle well enough that his best play will be "coast-to-coast until somebody stops ball" a lot of the times he gets a rebound. Get the defense rotating in transition, and you've really got a good offensive possession started.
I guess what I mean is that we don't have to worry about JK's nose for the basket in transition or otherwise. That is hard wired into his DNA. At this point JK probably thinks the ball is the most important thing when it's not in the Warriors system. You don't find the best shot by moving the ball around, you find it by moving people around without the ball. So what JK needs to learn is that you could A. drive from the top of the key into 3 defenders and take a contested shot, hoping to get a call or B. get rid of the ball, set a screen and slip hard for a wide open dunk. The first and most important rule in Warriors basketball is that it's not about ball movement, it's about player movement, what you're doing when the ball isn't in your hands. Once learned, the ball will find your hands in better scoring opportunities. The kid is AWESOME with ball in his hands. I love him. But to be great on this team, he will have to learn what is needed when he doesn't have the ball.
Another extremely well made point! I wish I could verbalize (what’s the written version of verbalize) breakdowns that clearly.
JK with the ball in his hands in transition is a problem for the defense. To use your example, if there are three defenders ready to crash on his drive, that leaves 2 defenders to guard the other 4 Warriors. He should be driving to draw those defenders knowing where his teammates are supposed to be to receive his kick out/dump off/lob. Of course, he's got a lot to learn about NBA basketball and the Warriors system to be able to most effectively take advantage of those situations.
haha. we're saying the same thing. I can't wait for him to develop. ;-)
To me, Kuminga will go as far as his jumper. He's got all the tools but he consistently (so far) has been incredibly inefficient because he can't hit the reasonable shots he creates. And unfortunately, the FT% isn't suggesting he's a great shooter who was just missing them in game.
In year 1, I think his best bet for success is playing small ball 5, but I think he needs as much G league time as he can get as well. I have a feeling that until one of them because ultra consistent with their jumper, Wiseman and Kuminga can't share the floor at an NBA level yet. But if they do share the floor, there would be 1-2 out of this world highlights a game.
It’s his FT% that will make him playable or not. He’s going to be able to get to the line a lot. If he’s a serious candidate for stardom his FT % will be the absolute first priority. If he’s all ego he’ll spend his time working on long jumpers.
Dubs are very fortunate that the youth movement is full of guys who work hard to earn their minutes and do not act entitled. I have no idea what kind of person Kuminga is, but with Poole, JTA, Lee, Looney, Wiseman, and Moody who we know work hard at their craft, he will not be given much leeway to act like a diva. The kid is setup to succeed if he wants to with the Dubs.
Have you become familiar with Kuminga’s story and heard him speak in sit down interviews? (Dubstalk with Kendra and Grant was great.)
There’s evidence to suggest that he’s as mature, focused and hard-working as any young player we’ve seen join the Dubs. (This was easy to miss pre-draft because everything focused on “talented but raw”. It’s made me far more excited about him than I could have imagined.