Been reading about TJD. Apparently famous basketball player Dale Davis is his biological father, but was raised by - and considers as his father - Raymond Jackson. Ray was an athlete too, playing football in college and in a single NFL game for the Bengals in 2003. I’m sure we’ll learn more about his family as we get to know him.
We need to get all the dads sitting together on the front row one of these games: Dale Davis, Gary Payton, Dell Curry, Mychal Thompson, Mitchell Wiggins...am I missing anyone? Its absurd how many 2nd generation players the Dubs have.
There was a comment earlier about Rebel Moon. I have it on in the background and it is exactly what I would expect from a Zach Snyder facsimile of Star Wars. No more, no less.
Meanwhile in LA, Celtics are using the same starting lineup that they used against us in the @ Clippers game. Guess they'll use Porzingis against the Lakers on Christmas.
No Kawhi for the Clippers is a bigger loss than no Porzingis for the Celtics. Currently a 21 point Celtics lead with a few minutes to go in the first half
The next step for the young players is to play better on the road. The splits so far show the vets' game doesn't noticeably drop when they are playing away. But the role players and young players become a shell of themselves.
Well, other than the Denver game, it will be a while before they have to worry about a road game, but that is pretty typical. Have you seen splits specifically for BP, TJD, JK, and MM this year? Or are you just saying in general?
All this talk of trades has me thinking two conflicting thoughts.
(1) The Dubs can definitely become a better team with a few different players. Swap a really strong 3 and D guy for Moody or Wiggins, say. Or bring in a more capable big man with more experience and BBIQ.
(2) The existence of upgrade players doesn’t mean the Warriors can get them. Almost certainly not, I think. Still, Markannen for almost any combination of players (other than the few untouchables) and picks would be a deal that the Warriors would probably do. Except Utah probably wouldn’t.
(3) I like our young players and would be sad to see them dumped. JK, Moody, Kuminga, and Podz could be really fun to watch for the next 5 years.
(4) The Dubs have not done major mid season trades much recently. New management, so maybe that’s irrelevant?
I do like the idea for the next few years of a Steph/Klay/Podz/Kuminga/TJD starting 5, with Draymond captaining the 2nd unit and Moody getting 25-30 mpg off the bench. GP2 still around and I guess Wiggins is the real wild card.
With you on all those points, but would add TJD to your list of young guys I’d be sad to see dumped. Because they’ve arrived with more developed games, he and Podz are already on the same timeline with JK and MM. To have four guys that are all looking like solid NBA starters hitting their stride together is going to be fun and I think they could prolong Curry’s usefulness.
For 4, it depends on how the next 15 or so games play out. I think that's what management has said, and it makes sense given our youth are variously showing out
I'm with you on this. I'm enjoying watching these young guys grow. They're fun to watch. If Steph can take these guys into the playoffs and make them dangerous there, I'd really enjoy that. If Klay, Wiggs, GPII, and the gang can summon one more season of greatness, they'd have a shot at a championship.
I don't want Siakam. Markannen isn't getting traded here for what he would cost. If they make changes, best guess is that they will be incremental.
The new guys don't have the talent of the old guard, especially when it comes to shooting (who does?), but they play with the level of energy that the old guys, non-Curry division, just can't match. Even Curry sometimes seems to get gassed a little more than he used to. If Wiggins' shooting reverts to his mean, I don't see why they can't make a decent playoff run.
I'm going to be happy when GP2 comes back but pre-emptively sad when Moody gets bumped from the rotation, as I suspect the 2nd unit will be CP3/GP2/Wiggins/Saric/TJD.
It could be more complicated than that when Draymond comes back. Will Draymond start? Presumably so but JK has been balling out. TJD or Saric could start instead of Loon, although they pair well with each other and CP3.
Going forward they will need to be careful with Gary's minutes in order to keep him reasonably healthy. The intensity he plays with chronically dings him up anyway, and we have seen in the past what a "calf strain" can lead to when a player does too much too soon upon returning. Hopefully keeping Moody in the rotation and using GP2 in bursts for now can keep both ready and available for a playoff run.
Watch minutes for: GP2, CP3, Steph, Loon, Klay, and Dray upon return.... If the Dubs play well, there will be minutes. If they're not playing well, then someone should be sitting (oversimplification)
No matter what happens the rest of the regular season, come playoff time he'll be in the rotation because he's a two-way player which you can't say for quite a few other guys on the Warriors.
But he's definitely been a victim of Draymond's suspension, because all the other secondary ballhandlers on the team are small guards.
Kuminga has started showing some glimpses of handling the ball lately! I don’t recall any recent lost dribbles, and seeing increased “good vision” moments. Not getting ahead of myself, he’s not there, but it’s promising to say the least, to where he could credibly become a secondary ball handler by the end of the season.
Also, if the Warriors did go Godfather offer for Markkanen, all the same things would be true w TJD except Markkanen is much more athletic. With Kuminga in there that would be a decent sized front court with great mobility and skill.
We could trade Kuminga and Moody, who are on inexpensive contracts, are playing well and will only improve; or we could trade Draymond or Wiggins, who are the opposite of those things.
Draymond or Wiggins for Markkanen works and we'd win more games. Why would Utah do that? I don't know. Picks? The same for Siakam or Grant for Wiggins, etc.
I'm not proposing specific picks, I'm just saying that the focus on trading young players is as usual forming the impression that the young guys can't help us win but the veterans can. That was true five years ago. Is it still?
NOTE: I am not saying trade Draymond or Wiggins. I'm noting the imbalanced nature of the conversation.
Draymond is expensive but he has played very well. That part hasn't been the issue. I don't want Siakam, and we're not getting him anyway. His name keeps coming up but nobody has yet shown a good deal for both sides that's convincing for a player who costs almost as much as Klay and can't shoot.
Utah could be interested in a pick heavy package that included Wiggins.
The future of the Warriors picks is more enticing than any other team.
Wiggins is an easy guy to project to rehab either for their own two way wing (which they don’t have) or as a future trade piece. He would have been considered a major value guy at this time last year.
We need Draymond, I fear. He's our best defender against big centers. In the playoffs, he's going to be very important, unless Looney gets it together somewhere along the way. And even if Looney does, my money would still be on Draymond being better for some key matchups (Phoenix, Dallas).
The theory was tested against Jokic in the regular season and against AD in preseason, it did not go well… got completely overmatched. Maybe he figures things out better in the next few months, but Dray will assuredly be better at defending those bigs.
Draymond gives up a lot of points to good bigs. He gives up *fewer* points than might be expected from someone his size, but he can't stop AD or Jokic. No one can. I am not nuts, I still think Draymond is better than TJD -- but by how much? In what ways? And what are the tradeoffs?
It's possible that when he comes back, he's a shadow of himself, and not really that important to the team.
But, it's also possible that he resumes close to his normal production, in which case, you're talking about a good POA defender, good rebounder, a great help defender, and our de facto starting point guard.
He's basically a Swiss Army knife, that Kerr can use to solve multiple problems.
Good luck getting someone back who is a net plus in that trade. Especially since Draymond is a distressed asset right now.
Even if we were committed to trading him, it would be better to wait to the offseason, get past the suspension and rebuild his value.
Dray has a lot of rings after corraling a lot of 'good bigs'
If 'lots of points' is the metric, look at the Dub playoff history of giving up lots of points to a Harden, a Jokic, a Luka, etc... while shutting down the rest of the team.
I've watched, I know what Draymond does when facing an opposing talented big. It's important and impressive and helps win -- but it isn't miraculous. AD and Embiid and Jokic and so on often score over the top of him or bully him. Not ALL THE TIME, Draymond gets his stops, but it's an exaggeration that he stops anyone. I AM looking at our playoff history. In 2023 we got unceremoniously booted out of the playoffs because LeBron and AD were too good and too big.
The team doesn't have any picks in 2024. Would have to mortgage the future to get Markkanen. Utah would probably do it because they can then flip Draymond to a playoff team for more picks.
How is missing a bunch of games and getting techs and such really that impressive? I know what Draymond does on the court and I've always appreciated it, but he is not the only player in the world who can pass and play defense. His weaknesses are also worthy of note. Anyway I'm not saying trade him, I'm saying the conversation is skewed.
This is a pretty dismissive way of talking about Draymond's contributions. And Draymond is the only player we have a remote chance of getting this season that can play D Green level defense.
I don't think it's dismissive to say that I've always appreciated what he does. I'm trying to have a rational conversation about the fact that he has strengths and weaknesses, as do all players except Steph. I highly dispute the idea that the only way we can win a chip is with Draymond. We have other players with strengths and weaknesses. I'm not anti-Draymond. I want him on the team. I'd celebrate a win with him. But he's flawed and we can win without him. Ask Boston this week.
"He's not the only player in the world..." felt dismissive in the way Steph "just a jumpshooter" Curry got minimized, but fair enough. I know you've been here through all the highs and lows of the Draymond Green Experience. I think the team could win without him in the regular season; they've shown that already. That's qualitatively different from winning in the postseason though? Even our HOFers had to get whooped a few times before they broke through, and they had one of the best outcomes for a team led by mid 20s players.
That said, I can't justify huge renovations if the team can win a few more games against teams better than the Wizards and Portland. The Celtics game was really encouraging. Maybe we can have Draymond playing something like a hybrid Andre role moving forward?
I’m tired of Draymond and want him off the team, but he does a lot more than pass and play defense. He’s the very definition of a floor general at both ends, and makes the players around him better.
How tired are you? Serious question. If the choice was win a championship with Draymond or not winning one (no matter how close) which would uyou chose?
( I am aware you or someone already stated that we showed we could win without him as shown in the Celtics game, but one regular season game and alll the way through the playoffs are different so please respect my postulates in your response)
He has no real offensive floor game, he's left wide open to shoot, leaving so much more pressure on Steph and Klay. He doesn't drive, doesn't post up, doesn't really finish, and if he's hitting open threes we're all aghast. I don't know what "floor general" means here. He certainly isn't needed as some sort of encourager. Yes, I know that he keeps the offense moving by attacking in transition, by operating in the short roll, by setting the right pick and handoffs to shooters. We've seen that for a decade, I have not missed that part. I'm not saying he's trash. I'm saying that other players, in his spot, have different strengths and weaknesses. Take a guy like Saric. He hits the open three and finishes at the rim. That matters. Does he play Draymond defense hell no. But Draymond's game is flawed and we've all been pretending that that's just fine. It's not. It comes with costs.
42 career triple doubles. That is one lucky dude to have lucked into that stat with 'no real offensive floor game'.
Make your case about his problems, sure, but you belittle your claims when starting with questionable statements about giving up points to 'good bigs' and having no value to the Dub offense, imo.
He's #17 all time on reg season trip-dubs, per bbref. How cool is that? (and I got to learn about #11, Fat Lever!)
All players have flaws. Some have strengths that allow them to overcome those flaws and contribute on both ends of the court and win a championship, and even rarer ones are able to contribute massively to four championships.
We agree. I'm just saying I'm not content with four recent championships and would love to see a fifth. And there is a valid discussion as to whether Draymond needs to be there to make it happen. It should not be some forbidden third rail of conversation to say hey maybe this guy would make an amazing sixth man.
Agree, but just want to point out that those wanting to trade Dray are coming from a place of fear that he will be suspended for the rest of the year on his next flagrant foul, and thus unable to help in the playoffs in the first place.
The thing is much more that trading FOR young players comes with the potential of their future improvement, while trading FOR veterans like Dray/Wiggins comes with the expectation of their future decline.
Who is giving up what for Dray/Wiggs and why? Teams that should want those guys are contenders, who are not looking to send out top rotation players in return.
This team is so deep… we were missing three rotation players, including two starters (I know Wiggins is currently struggling and demoted), and not only did we not miss them, but we could barely find minutes for Moody.
The depth makes me *think* we should consolidate… but I don’t want to, and I can’t conceive a consolidation that definitely makes us better. I guess if Utah loves them some Podz, then a Wiggins/Podz/Joseph/Moody and a pick for Markannen and Sexton is a plus? But, of course, Podz is starting, and Wiggins will be more of himself by the ASB… so it’s not even that much of an improvement… GTFO with all those silly Toronto trades… no thanks in Grant or LaVine… Dray and CP3 are too integral to what we need to do… I love JK, Podz, TJD, and Moody too much.
JK is currently outplaying Moody by a pretty wide margin, imo. I’m curious how many more games of Kuminga and Moody playing at their current levels it will take to change your mind on this, haha… another 20? The rest of this season? More?
I think Kerr has shown that we’re past the “ego management” phase, and it’s firmly “who is playing well in which lineups?” Wiggins is getting minutes reduced, unless he’s playing well. Loon too. Moody hasn’t played badly, but not that well either…
It really turns out that if the players can play well w/o making mistakes, they will get minutes. Podz and TJD bbiq is advanced since they played more years in college. Smoother transition as opposed to Moody and Kuminga who only spent a year in college/gleague. Wiseman really should have spent more years in college learning the game.
Podz played two years in college. Moody was a one and done player. Moody said in an interview he left early because he wanted to learn the game in the NBA.
I am with you on this one. If there were some clear cut better player that becomes available, then I guess I'd get used to it (hey, I'm out here cheering for CP3), but I really like everyone on this team. I just don't see a lot of the proposed trades really moving the needle vs. what they already have, especially when Wiggs get rolling again, which I think is happening soon once he gets over this illness.
I guess we're all going to pretend we didn't just witness COMPLETE DOMINANCE from the Samba Mamba, Gui Santos? 2-3 for 7 points in 6 minutes against a formidable Washington defens -- OK, but seriously. Think he's a future rotation guy?
He's 21. He can pass, and shoot a bit (61% TS at SCW). 6.3 rbs, 3.2 asts this year at SCW.
His defense still needs a lot of work, but from what I've seen, he is working at it.
I wouldn't bet against him. He seems like a smart, young player with good size, and already close to enough shooting to get on the floor at the NBA level. His work rate on the court seems good.
Another year of seasoning/physical development, and I think he might be a decent end-of-bencher. From there, who knows? He'll be a whopping 22 (nearly 23) at the end of NEXT season.
Nevermind about wanting Eric Gordon over the summer, probably wouldn't have went well (although I do think Curry might have done a better job reeling him in so that this article wouldn't exist at least):
> "Early on in the season, it was better. And lately, there just hasn't been an emphasis [to get me more looks]," Gordon told B/R. "So, it's definitely different. Lately I haven't been getting hardly any touches really."
...
> Gordon told B/R he plans to talk to Vogel on ways to get him more incorporated into the offense.
> "No question. Everybody knows the type of player I am and what I'm about. I came here to win, but what I do is score," Gordon told B/R. "And I think when I score, it really opens up the door for a lot of people because I can score in big games and in big ways. That's just what it is."
...
> "We have a lot of good players. To be in this kind of situation, it is a little different because you would never go through lapses like this," Gordon told B/R. "So, it's definitely a lot different than what I kind of expected.
> "We go from winning seven in a row early on in the season and now we've lost eight out of 11," Gordon continued. "So, it's just tough with the type of team that we have. We just have to figure out the different sacrifices that we need to try to win a game."
We just have to figure out the different sacrifices that we need to try to win a game. - sounds like he is expecting the other guys to figure out how to sacrifice so he can get more touches.
Made sure to get together with some people to commemorate the Poole return and roast/reminisce on his awful play. I impressed the people I was watching with by letting them know on this play that Poole was going to step back and brick the three, not that it was a difficult play to call:
A couple of other times I accurately predicted the Poole "heat check" transition three despite not being hot. He even got a cherry pick bucket from not running back on defense. Was disappointed he didn't do any slip and slide plays though. That whole Wizard team is full of guys who should be coming off the bench, disgusting roster tbh and I can't honestly believe there were some Warrior fans talking about trading for Kyle fucking Kuzma of all people.
Except for a brief magical run in the 2021-2022 stretch run, Poole has never been able to shoot pull up threes with any accuracy which has completely defanged his game. If they ever go in he could be a solid sixth man, if not he's just going to keep being a terrible chucker.
Really hope Draymond is able to play in the rematch, for the drama.
He’s truly an awful player now. No discipline or effort. I think on most teams he would be benched at this point but he’s a valuable tank commander for Washington, which is just filled with 9/10th men in a rotation
He has too many years left on his contract for too much money to be benched, I think. Like how the Lakers wouldn't bench Westbrook until the last year of the deal. It's the same reason Kerr was unable to get him to try defensively last season, these guys have all the leverage if they have a ton of years/money remaining on their deal. It was something I was worried about when the Warriors traded for Wiggins, luckily Wiggins turned out to be pretty coachable. But like, if he wasn't coachable, there was nothing they were going to be able to do about that.
https://dubnationhq.com/p/warriors-smash-wizards-pay-homage WE WON?!
Been reading about TJD. Apparently famous basketball player Dale Davis is his biological father, but was raised by - and considers as his father - Raymond Jackson. Ray was an athlete too, playing football in college and in a single NFL game for the Bengals in 2003. I’m sure we’ll learn more about his family as we get to know him.
The kind of cherry-picking stats we can get behind https://twitter.com/OptaSTATS/status/1738466561042563533
Daddy just be f’ing proud … and psyched to see his son have a real shot at getting megapaid.
@vonstroh
We need to get all the dads sitting together on the front row one of these games: Dale Davis, Gary Payton, Dell Curry, Mychal Thompson, Mitchell Wiggins...am I missing anyone? Its absurd how many 2nd generation players the Dubs have.
Mike Dunleavy Sr.
Get those guys together for a fathers and sons pickup game, mix and match!
This is an awesome deep pull, lol
How the heck does someone come up with a stat like that?
That shit is crazy and amazing. LOVING it.
I think what that stat tells us is that he should not be coming off the bench.
There was a comment earlier about Rebel Moon. I have it on in the background and it is exactly what I would expect from a Zach Snyder facsimile of Star Wars. No more, no less.
Jz said it was as bad as Last Airbender (live action film)
Meanwhile in LA, Celtics are using the same starting lineup that they used against us in the @ Clippers game. Guess they'll use Porzingis against the Lakers on Christmas.
No Kawhi for the Clippers is a bigger loss than no Porzingis for the Celtics. Currently a 21 point Celtics lead with a few minutes to go in the first half
And a comparable loss to no Dray for the Dubs, yet the Dubs still pulled out a win after being down 17. We’ll see how the Clips do.
Hate to say it but this year Kawhi's on court impact has been far greater than Dray's. But yeah, lotta game left, we'll see if they can come back
Was there ever a year where kawhi didn’t have a bigger impact (when he was on the court)? That’s no slight against dray but this is kawhi
Probably, but Kawhi is not quite the defender he used to be… and Dray is far better offensively this year than in the past.
Kawhi been good enough on d to disrupt Steph both times
The next step for the young players is to play better on the road. The splits so far show the vets' game doesn't noticeably drop when they are playing away. But the role players and young players become a shell of themselves.
TJD looked good against the Blazers in Portland.
Well, other than the Denver game, it will be a while before they have to worry about a road game, but that is pretty typical. Have you seen splits specifically for BP, TJD, JK, and MM this year? Or are you just saying in general?
Looked it up on bbref's split page for this season for everyone on the team.
Have the young guys and role players logged enough minutes for those splits to be statistically meaningful?
All this talk of trades has me thinking two conflicting thoughts.
(1) The Dubs can definitely become a better team with a few different players. Swap a really strong 3 and D guy for Moody or Wiggins, say. Or bring in a more capable big man with more experience and BBIQ.
(2) The existence of upgrade players doesn’t mean the Warriors can get them. Almost certainly not, I think. Still, Markannen for almost any combination of players (other than the few untouchables) and picks would be a deal that the Warriors would probably do. Except Utah probably wouldn’t.
(3) I like our young players and would be sad to see them dumped. JK, Moody, Kuminga, and Podz could be really fun to watch for the next 5 years.
(4) The Dubs have not done major mid season trades much recently. New management, so maybe that’s irrelevant?
I do like the idea for the next few years of a Steph/Klay/Podz/Kuminga/TJD starting 5, with Draymond captaining the 2nd unit and Moody getting 25-30 mpg off the bench. GP2 still around and I guess Wiggins is the real wild card.
With you on all those points, but would add TJD to your list of young guys I’d be sad to see dumped. Because they’ve arrived with more developed games, he and Podz are already on the same timeline with JK and MM. To have four guys that are all looking like solid NBA starters hitting their stride together is going to be fun and I think they could prolong Curry’s usefulness.
For 4, it depends on how the next 15 or so games play out. I think that's what management has said, and it makes sense given our youth are variously showing out
I'm with you on this. I'm enjoying watching these young guys grow. They're fun to watch. If Steph can take these guys into the playoffs and make them dangerous there, I'd really enjoy that. If Klay, Wiggs, GPII, and the gang can summon one more season of greatness, they'd have a shot at a championship.
I don't want Siakam. Markannen isn't getting traded here for what he would cost. If they make changes, best guess is that they will be incremental.
The new guys don't have the talent of the old guard, especially when it comes to shooting (who does?), but they play with the level of energy that the old guys, non-Curry division, just can't match. Even Curry sometimes seems to get gassed a little more than he used to. If Wiggins' shooting reverts to his mean, I don't see why they can't make a decent playoff run.
I'm going to be happy when GP2 comes back but pre-emptively sad when Moody gets bumped from the rotation, as I suspect the 2nd unit will be CP3/GP2/Wiggins/Saric/TJD.
It could be more complicated than that when Draymond comes back. Will Draymond start? Presumably so but JK has been balling out. TJD or Saric could start instead of Loon, although they pair well with each other and CP3.
Going forward they will need to be careful with Gary's minutes in order to keep him reasonably healthy. The intensity he plays with chronically dings him up anyway, and we have seen in the past what a "calf strain" can lead to when a player does too much too soon upon returning. Hopefully keeping Moody in the rotation and using GP2 in bursts for now can keep both ready and available for a playoff run.
> Careful with minutes
Watch minutes for: GP2, CP3, Steph, Loon, Klay, and Dray upon return.... If the Dubs play well, there will be minutes. If they're not playing well, then someone should be sitting (oversimplification)
No matter what happens the rest of the regular season, come playoff time he'll be in the rotation because he's a two-way player which you can't say for quite a few other guys on the Warriors.
But he's definitely been a victim of Draymond's suspension, because all the other secondary ballhandlers on the team are small guards.
Moody did some handling yesterday as well. Good to see!
Kuminga has started showing some glimpses of handling the ball lately! I don’t recall any recent lost dribbles, and seeing increased “good vision” moments. Not getting ahead of myself, he’s not there, but it’s promising to say the least, to where he could credibly become a secondary ball handler by the end of the season.
Good stuff alert! Joe Viray with a nice breakdown of TJD (and how fits on the court with Šarić): https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2023/12/22/24013090/warriors-wizards-129-118-trayce-jackson-davis-dario-saric-breakdown
It’s a pretty natural fit.
Also, if the Warriors did go Godfather offer for Markkanen, all the same things would be true w TJD except Markkanen is much more athletic. With Kuminga in there that would be a decent sized front court with great mobility and skill.
If we don't have to give up Kuminga and/or TJD to get Markkanen. I don't think Markannen is coming here though.
We could trade Kuminga and Moody, who are on inexpensive contracts, are playing well and will only improve; or we could trade Draymond or Wiggins, who are the opposite of those things.
Draymond or Wiggins for Markkanen works and we'd win more games. Why would Utah do that? I don't know. Picks? The same for Siakam or Grant for Wiggins, etc.
I'm not proposing specific picks, I'm just saying that the focus on trading young players is as usual forming the impression that the young guys can't help us win but the veterans can. That was true five years ago. Is it still?
NOTE: I am not saying trade Draymond or Wiggins. I'm noting the imbalanced nature of the conversation.
Draymond is expensive but he has played very well. That part hasn't been the issue. I don't want Siakam, and we're not getting him anyway. His name keeps coming up but nobody has yet shown a good deal for both sides that's convincing for a player who costs almost as much as Klay and can't shoot.
Utah could be interested in a pick heavy package that included Wiggins.
The future of the Warriors picks is more enticing than any other team.
Wiggins is an easy guy to project to rehab either for their own two way wing (which they don’t have) or as a future trade piece. He would have been considered a major value guy at this time last year.
We need Draymond, I fear. He's our best defender against big centers. In the playoffs, he's going to be very important, unless Looney gets it together somewhere along the way. And even if Looney does, my money would still be on Draymond being better for some key matchups (Phoenix, Dallas).
OUr best defender against big centers may well be TJD. The theory has not been tested. I think we're still arguing from 2016 logic.
The theory was tested against Jokic in the regular season and against AD in preseason, it did not go well… got completely overmatched. Maybe he figures things out better in the next few months, but Dray will assuredly be better at defending those bigs.
Draymond gives up a lot of points to good bigs. He gives up *fewer* points than might be expected from someone his size, but he can't stop AD or Jokic. No one can. I am not nuts, I still think Draymond is better than TJD -- but by how much? In what ways? And what are the tradeoffs?
The other way to look at it is:
what are the risks of trading Draymond right now?
It's possible that when he comes back, he's a shadow of himself, and not really that important to the team.
But, it's also possible that he resumes close to his normal production, in which case, you're talking about a good POA defender, good rebounder, a great help defender, and our de facto starting point guard.
He's basically a Swiss Army knife, that Kerr can use to solve multiple problems.
Good luck getting someone back who is a net plus in that trade. Especially since Draymond is a distressed asset right now.
Even if we were committed to trading him, it would be better to wait to the offseason, get past the suspension and rebuild his value.
His 3 ball was falling right? I think he can be quietly productive. The question of course is will he?
> Draymond gives up a lot of points to good bigs.
Dray has a lot of rings after corraling a lot of 'good bigs'
If 'lots of points' is the metric, look at the Dub playoff history of giving up lots of points to a Harden, a Jokic, a Luka, etc... while shutting down the rest of the team.
Agreed. And remember Dray stealing the ball from Jokic at the end of game 3? I don't think there's a replacement for that kind of play.
I've watched, I know what Draymond does when facing an opposing talented big. It's important and impressive and helps win -- but it isn't miraculous. AD and Embiid and Jokic and so on often score over the top of him or bully him. Not ALL THE TIME, Draymond gets his stops, but it's an exaggeration that he stops anyone. I AM looking at our playoff history. In 2023 we got unceremoniously booted out of the playoffs because LeBron and AD were too good and too big.
Jokic killed him earlier this year. Draymond's grown-man lower body strength is a pretty big deal.
Or we could trade none of them, which is also an option.
Right. That's my preference. I just hear constant "Trade Kuminga" chatter and wanted to point out that it makes as much sense to trade others.
The team doesn't have any picks in 2024. Would have to mortgage the future to get Markkanen. Utah would probably do it because they can then flip Draymond to a playoff team for more picks.
Draymond has played better than anyone not named Curry this season. Trading him would be suicide if the goal is to try and win a championship.
How is missing a bunch of games and getting techs and such really that impressive? I know what Draymond does on the court and I've always appreciated it, but he is not the only player in the world who can pass and play defense. His weaknesses are also worthy of note. Anyway I'm not saying trade him, I'm saying the conversation is skewed.
This is a pretty dismissive way of talking about Draymond's contributions. And Draymond is the only player we have a remote chance of getting this season that can play D Green level defense.
I don't think it's dismissive to say that I've always appreciated what he does. I'm trying to have a rational conversation about the fact that he has strengths and weaknesses, as do all players except Steph. I highly dispute the idea that the only way we can win a chip is with Draymond. We have other players with strengths and weaknesses. I'm not anti-Draymond. I want him on the team. I'd celebrate a win with him. But he's flawed and we can win without him. Ask Boston this week.
"He's not the only player in the world..." felt dismissive in the way Steph "just a jumpshooter" Curry got minimized, but fair enough. I know you've been here through all the highs and lows of the Draymond Green Experience. I think the team could win without him in the regular season; they've shown that already. That's qualitatively different from winning in the postseason though? Even our HOFers had to get whooped a few times before they broke through, and they had one of the best outcomes for a team led by mid 20s players.
That said, I can't justify huge renovations if the team can win a few more games against teams better than the Wizards and Portland. The Celtics game was really encouraging. Maybe we can have Draymond playing something like a hybrid Andre role moving forward?
I’m tired of Draymond and want him off the team, but he does a lot more than pass and play defense. He’s the very definition of a floor general at both ends, and makes the players around him better.
How tired are you? Serious question. If the choice was win a championship with Draymond or not winning one (no matter how close) which would uyou chose?
( I am aware you or someone already stated that we showed we could win without him as shown in the Celtics game, but one regular season game and alll the way through the playoffs are different so please respect my postulates in your response)
He has no real offensive floor game, he's left wide open to shoot, leaving so much more pressure on Steph and Klay. He doesn't drive, doesn't post up, doesn't really finish, and if he's hitting open threes we're all aghast. I don't know what "floor general" means here. He certainly isn't needed as some sort of encourager. Yes, I know that he keeps the offense moving by attacking in transition, by operating in the short roll, by setting the right pick and handoffs to shooters. We've seen that for a decade, I have not missed that part. I'm not saying he's trash. I'm saying that other players, in his spot, have different strengths and weaknesses. Take a guy like Saric. He hits the open three and finishes at the rim. That matters. Does he play Draymond defense hell no. But Draymond's game is flawed and we've all been pretending that that's just fine. It's not. It comes with costs.
> He has no real offensive floor game
42 career triple doubles. That is one lucky dude to have lucked into that stat with 'no real offensive floor game'.
Make your case about his problems, sure, but you belittle your claims when starting with questionable statements about giving up points to 'good bigs' and having no value to the Dub offense, imo.
He's #17 all time on reg season trip-dubs, per bbref. How cool is that? (and I got to learn about #11, Fat Lever!)
Fat Lever -- there's a name I haven't heard in literally decades...
All players have flaws. Some have strengths that allow them to overcome those flaws and contribute on both ends of the court and win a championship, and even rarer ones are able to contribute massively to four championships.
We agree. I'm just saying I'm not content with four recent championships and would love to see a fifth. And there is a valid discussion as to whether Draymond needs to be there to make it happen. It should not be some forbidden third rail of conversation to say hey maybe this guy would make an amazing sixth man.
Agree, but just want to point out that those wanting to trade Dray are coming from a place of fear that he will be suspended for the rest of the year on his next flagrant foul, and thus unable to help in the playoffs in the first place.
The thing is much more that trading FOR young players comes with the potential of their future improvement, while trading FOR veterans like Dray/Wiggins comes with the expectation of their future decline.
Who is giving up what for Dray/Wiggs and why? Teams that should want those guys are contenders, who are not looking to send out top rotation players in return.
With you completely on this - now way should we be giving up any young guys
https://magazine.education.investing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Article-Image-Celebrities-Who-Work-a-9-5-Lisa-and-Louise-Burns-The-Shining.jpg
Just posting this for EA's use.
I don’t know what JK has to do to get on the NBA Top 10 plays videos…
Play on the East Coast. They make those wrapups early
This team is so deep… we were missing three rotation players, including two starters (I know Wiggins is currently struggling and demoted), and not only did we not miss them, but we could barely find minutes for Moody.
The depth makes me *think* we should consolidate… but I don’t want to, and I can’t conceive a consolidation that definitely makes us better. I guess if Utah loves them some Podz, then a Wiggins/Podz/Joseph/Moody and a pick for Markannen and Sexton is a plus? But, of course, Podz is starting, and Wiggins will be more of himself by the ASB… so it’s not even that much of an improvement… GTFO with all those silly Toronto trades… no thanks in Grant or LaVine… Dray and CP3 are too integral to what we need to do… I love JK, Podz, TJD, and Moody too much.
Trading Moody over Kuminga would be a mistake imo
JK is currently outplaying Moody by a pretty wide margin, imo. I’m curious how many more games of Kuminga and Moody playing at their current levels it will take to change your mind on this, haha… another 20? The rest of this season? More?
Moody outplayed him the first 10, Kuminga outplayed him the last 10
Utah is gonna want all the 1st round picks for Markannen - so 3 firsts and 2 swaps or whatever.
Yeah, they will want some picks too. But I still don’t see that much improvement for this years team from this trade…
The problem is ego management then. I think Podz, Moody, TJD, and Looney are the ones who will get their minutes reduced if no consolidation is made.
I think Kerr has shown that we’re past the “ego management” phase, and it’s firmly “who is playing well in which lineups?” Wiggins is getting minutes reduced, unless he’s playing well. Loon too. Moody hasn’t played badly, but not that well either…
It really turns out that if the players can play well w/o making mistakes, they will get minutes. Podz and TJD bbiq is advanced since they played more years in college. Smoother transition as opposed to Moody and Kuminga who only spent a year in college/gleague. Wiseman really should have spent more years in college learning the game.
Podz didn’t play more years than Moody
Podz played two years in college. Moody was a one and done player. Moody said in an interview he left early because he wanted to learn the game in the NBA.
I guess I wasn’t really counting his time in Illinois, but that’s not quite fair
I am with you on this one. If there were some clear cut better player that becomes available, then I guess I'd get used to it (hey, I'm out here cheering for CP3), but I really like everyone on this team. I just don't see a lot of the proposed trades really moving the needle vs. what they already have, especially when Wiggs get rolling again, which I think is happening soon once he gets over this illness.
I guess we're all going to pretend we didn't just witness COMPLETE DOMINANCE from the Samba Mamba, Gui Santos? 2-3 for 7 points in 6 minutes against a formidable Washington defens -- OK, but seriously. Think he's a future rotation guy?
He's 21. He can pass, and shoot a bit (61% TS at SCW). 6.3 rbs, 3.2 asts this year at SCW.
His defense still needs a lot of work, but from what I've seen, he is working at it.
I wouldn't bet against him. He seems like a smart, young player with good size, and already close to enough shooting to get on the floor at the NBA level. His work rate on the court seems good.
Another year of seasoning/physical development, and I think he might be a decent end-of-bencher. From there, who knows? He'll be a whopping 22 (nearly 23) at the end of NEXT season.
It’s in play. Too early to say.
Kerr just may call Gui into the fray, but for now, in Santa Cruz he shall stay
Nevermind about wanting Eric Gordon over the summer, probably wouldn't have went well (although I do think Curry might have done a better job reeling him in so that this article wouldn't exist at least):
> "Early on in the season, it was better. And lately, there just hasn't been an emphasis [to get me more looks]," Gordon told B/R. "So, it's definitely different. Lately I haven't been getting hardly any touches really."
...
> Gordon told B/R he plans to talk to Vogel on ways to get him more incorporated into the offense.
> "No question. Everybody knows the type of player I am and what I'm about. I came here to win, but what I do is score," Gordon told B/R. "And I think when I score, it really opens up the door for a lot of people because I can score in big games and in big ways. That's just what it is."
...
> "We have a lot of good players. To be in this kind of situation, it is a little different because you would never go through lapses like this," Gordon told B/R. "So, it's definitely a lot different than what I kind of expected.
> "We go from winning seven in a row early on in the season and now we've lost eight out of 11," Gordon continued. "So, it's just tough with the type of team that we have. We just have to figure out the different sacrifices that we need to try to win a game."
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10102280-after-another-loss-for-struggling-phoenix-suns-key-veteran-desires-bigger-role
The Warriors losing to these bums three times is annoying.
We just have to figure out the different sacrifices that we need to try to win a game. - sounds like he is expecting the other guys to figure out how to sacrifice so he can get more touches.
I can see that. I mean, Durant and Booker get a lot of touches and shots. Eric just thinks he should get some of those...
Made sure to get together with some people to commemorate the Poole return and roast/reminisce on his awful play. I impressed the people I was watching with by letting them know on this play that Poole was going to step back and brick the three, not that it was a difficult play to call:
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=180&GameID=0022300386&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=MISS%20Poole%2027%27%203PT%20Step%20Back%20Jump%20Shot
A couple of other times I accurately predicted the Poole "heat check" transition three despite not being hot. He even got a cherry pick bucket from not running back on defense. Was disappointed he didn't do any slip and slide plays though. That whole Wizard team is full of guys who should be coming off the bench, disgusting roster tbh and I can't honestly believe there were some Warrior fans talking about trading for Kyle fucking Kuzma of all people.
Except for a brief magical run in the 2021-2022 stretch run, Poole has never been able to shoot pull up threes with any accuracy which has completely defanged his game. If they ever go in he could be a solid sixth man, if not he's just going to keep being a terrible chucker.
Really hope Draymond is able to play in the rematch, for the drama.
He’s truly an awful player now. No discipline or effort. I think on most teams he would be benched at this point but he’s a valuable tank commander for Washington, which is just filled with 9/10th men in a rotation
He has too many years left on his contract for too much money to be benched, I think. Like how the Lakers wouldn't bench Westbrook until the last year of the deal. It's the same reason Kerr was unable to get him to try defensively last season, these guys have all the leverage if they have a ton of years/money remaining on their deal. It was something I was worried about when the Warriors traded for Wiggins, luckily Wiggins turned out to be pretty coachable. But like, if he wasn't coachable, there was nothing they were going to be able to do about that.