>>> Wiggins has been average, at best [at MIN]. A replacement-level NBA player.
I don't usually browse stat tables for the heck of it, but I finally took a look at PER and was surprised to find that Steph was the only Warrior above 15, the definition of average. Wiseman was just below at 14 something and Wiggins was 13 something.
No doubt there's flaws with PER, but since I've enjoyed Wiggs this year, it surprised me.
The most encouraging part of the 3 Wiggins games had to be the offense running through Green. A staggered rest for Steph with Green, Klay, Wiggins, Chriss, Looney/Poole line ups would be really interesting to watch. I loved seeing Green revitalized on offense and wish they would have gotten a Wiggins type player for Dlo sooner. We were completely wasting Green’s skillset when guys didn’t cut off ball. And Wiggins actually attempting to play D gives us a D that has Steph playing passing lanes and grabbing FT line rebounds, Klay and Wiggins running with their man on the perimeter all day, Green at free safety, and Chriss at strong safety. That could be super fun on D too.
I just don’t want to make the same mistake I did at the start of this season, when I believed everyone who was saying that the Warriors sucked so bad because their roster was dismantled and once WCS plays, they’d start “winning games”. It kinda feels the same way with this “once Steph, Klay, and James Wiseman play with Draymond and Andrew Wiggins, they’ll win next season” talk that almost every Warriors fan on YouTube or Twitter has been using. Like, I simply don’t wanna believe that they’ll win a championship next season just because this player X is finally gonna play with players A, B, C, and D. It doesn’t help stagger my belief either how Andre Iguodala basically said the same thing as Warriors fans did, in his Heat v Warriors speech, “They’re going to wreak havoc on the league for 80 games” (although he may have just been exaggerating). So as much as I have hope for Wiggins’ player development, I don’t want to use that as a blanket assurance for anything next season.
PS. I am new to basketball/NBA in general. Learning everything from watching the Warriors and reading articles.
Came here from a link at GSOM - thanks! GSOM lives!
Anyway, my hot take on Wiggins was about the same as DDDs - OMFG are you kidding me! After I had a chance to calm down, and see him do OK in an extremely small sample size (3 games), here's my lukewarm take on Wiggins:
1. Since Durant was leaving anyway, we basically swapped Iguadola, who is old and was overpaid, for Wiggins, who is young and even more overpaid, a high draft pick and a 17MM trade exception. Not too shabby.
2. Despite Wiggins being overpaid, the front office avoided the repeater tax, which will more than make up for Wiggins' high salary.
3. Remember when Wiggins was entering the draft, and the teams that were tanking were "riggin' for Wiggins"? He was supposed to be a future all-NBA guy, or at least a perennial all-star. I think if he'd been drafted at say 15 or 18, and was making 10MM a year, and taking D'Lo out of the equation, we'd be like, "Yahoo, we got Wiggins! He's a perfect fit positionally, and he can hit open corner threes all day!" But since he went #1, he's considered a bust.
4. And yeah, he's a reclamation project. Can he play smarter? Can he learn to play half-decent defense? Can he play off-ball? If so, we've got a winner on our hands. And one of the reasons I fell in love with this Warriors team was because they were all underdogs - remember the scouting reports on Steph, Klay and Draymond? They were all expected to be role players at best. Wiggins is the opposite - if he can turn into the new Harrison Barnes, and we get a high draft pick, this will start looking like a GREAT trade.
Anyway, SO glad I found this site as I needed (obviously) to vent...
A small-ball lineup of Steph, Klay, Wiggins, Okoro, and Green would be a lot of fun to watch. And if Poole continues honing his playmaking, that opens up some longer second-unit lineups with a 6'5" shooting guard at the point.
The Wolves had some success post-Butler playing Wiggins at the 2, with Taj Gisbon and RoCo covering for KAT's defense (they were actually above .500 with that line up in a limited amount of games). But they also had to cover for Teague's defense as well, and of course this is not an option for the Dubs (and doesn't need to be, with Dray's defense, although a fairly mobile, shot-blocking 5 would be nice. Maybe Chriss could grow into that role, or more likely Wiseman if they decide to go there - although he might not be good enough - or an FA or trade-exception player).
Maybe EricApricot (or someone else) could do a special trade edition "explain another team's play" which illustrates how Wiggins (mostly unsuccessfully) tried to cope with the increasing lack of interior rim protection and perimeter defense, and how the Warriors might be able to best utilize (or hide) him.
One thing is certain, though, Wiggins is going to be really really tested on defense against the Rockets in the 1st game after the break. It's perhaps unfair to him to face a 5-out offense with new teammates and a new defensive system, but it's good to get the experience now, rather than when it counts (Lacob was definitely right about that, although the not-waiting-to-the-offseason aspect of the trade will be debated for a long time if the Warriors' off-season doesn't go to plan.)
Hint: Player A is "The Perfect Center for the Modern NBA" (per 538) and "The Fiercest Best Player NBA You Don't Know" (per Zach Lowe). Player B is a walk-on scrub who was released by the crummy Warriors and allowed to clear waivers by 29 other teams before returning.
Feb 14, 2020Liked by Eric Apricot, punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
Hey, just want to remind people to Heart up these articles if you enjoy them. These writers went out on a limb for us, so let's try to get them more exposure, k?
I've linked a few articles to my personal, real name FB page and will continue to do so to get anyone who loves the Dubs over here. Doesn't take much effort, but us hardcore fans doing a bit like that can make or break a new endeavor like this.
So, if you appreciate the hard work and dedication put in, if you like the articles, if you want to show Dub Nation pride, let's get this spot on the social media map.
P.S. This was totally unprompted by anybody (I don't communicate privately with any of the staff) and comes entirely from my appreciation for the community here, especially the reporters, writers, editors, etc. whose sweat and toil have built this from the smoldering ash-heap of Vox Media...entirely for our reading pleasure. :)
Enjoyed the exchange, between Duby and Daniel/Eric. I remember when Duby was down on the trade; I just didn't want to comment. Frankly, I thought then, as I do now, Wiggins was the perfect wing for our offense! Though his game was not really pushed to superstar level in Minnesota, he definitely has star quality and superstar potential. I think with Steph and Klay taking some of the heat off him, and Green's savvy on offensive creation, Wiggins is going to be that awesome 3rd scorer when needed! my concern remains the front line, as it looks like the road to the Finals will be through Lakers the next year or two...If we can figure a way to keep Wiggins and get lucky with best center out of the draft, we may be able to solve my concern...
>Was signing Wiggins really the death of the Warriors future?
Turns out, no.
Just saw this great article!
As for this:
>>> Wiggins has been average, at best [at MIN]. A replacement-level NBA player.
I don't usually browse stat tables for the heck of it, but I finally took a look at PER and was surprised to find that Steph was the only Warrior above 15, the definition of average. Wiseman was just below at 14 something and Wiggins was 13 something.
No doubt there's flaws with PER, but since I've enjoyed Wiggs this year, it surprised me.
The most encouraging part of the 3 Wiggins games had to be the offense running through Green. A staggered rest for Steph with Green, Klay, Wiggins, Chriss, Looney/Poole line ups would be really interesting to watch. I loved seeing Green revitalized on offense and wish they would have gotten a Wiggins type player for Dlo sooner. We were completely wasting Green’s skillset when guys didn’t cut off ball. And Wiggins actually attempting to play D gives us a D that has Steph playing passing lanes and grabbing FT line rebounds, Klay and Wiggins running with their man on the perimeter all day, Green at free safety, and Chriss at strong safety. That could be super fun on D too.
“Don’t screenshot me bro” AHAHHA
I just don’t want to make the same mistake I did at the start of this season, when I believed everyone who was saying that the Warriors sucked so bad because their roster was dismantled and once WCS plays, they’d start “winning games”. It kinda feels the same way with this “once Steph, Klay, and James Wiseman play with Draymond and Andrew Wiggins, they’ll win next season” talk that almost every Warriors fan on YouTube or Twitter has been using. Like, I simply don’t wanna believe that they’ll win a championship next season just because this player X is finally gonna play with players A, B, C, and D. It doesn’t help stagger my belief either how Andre Iguodala basically said the same thing as Warriors fans did, in his Heat v Warriors speech, “They’re going to wreak havoc on the league for 80 games” (although he may have just been exaggerating). So as much as I have hope for Wiggins’ player development, I don’t want to use that as a blanket assurance for anything next season.
PS. I am new to basketball/NBA in general. Learning everything from watching the Warriors and reading articles.
Came here from a link at GSOM - thanks! GSOM lives!
Anyway, my hot take on Wiggins was about the same as DDDs - OMFG are you kidding me! After I had a chance to calm down, and see him do OK in an extremely small sample size (3 games), here's my lukewarm take on Wiggins:
1. Since Durant was leaving anyway, we basically swapped Iguadola, who is old and was overpaid, for Wiggins, who is young and even more overpaid, a high draft pick and a 17MM trade exception. Not too shabby.
2. Despite Wiggins being overpaid, the front office avoided the repeater tax, which will more than make up for Wiggins' high salary.
3. Remember when Wiggins was entering the draft, and the teams that were tanking were "riggin' for Wiggins"? He was supposed to be a future all-NBA guy, or at least a perennial all-star. I think if he'd been drafted at say 15 or 18, and was making 10MM a year, and taking D'Lo out of the equation, we'd be like, "Yahoo, we got Wiggins! He's a perfect fit positionally, and he can hit open corner threes all day!" But since he went #1, he's considered a bust.
4. And yeah, he's a reclamation project. Can he play smarter? Can he learn to play half-decent defense? Can he play off-ball? If so, we've got a winner on our hands. And one of the reasons I fell in love with this Warriors team was because they were all underdogs - remember the scouting reports on Steph, Klay and Draymond? They were all expected to be role players at best. Wiggins is the opposite - if he can turn into the new Harrison Barnes, and we get a high draft pick, this will start looking like a GREAT trade.
Anyway, SO glad I found this site as I needed (obviously) to vent...
A small-ball lineup of Steph, Klay, Wiggins, Okoro, and Green would be a lot of fun to watch. And if Poole continues honing his playmaking, that opens up some longer second-unit lineups with a 6'5" shooting guard at the point.
Warriors stats before the All-Star Break:
Offense:
26 in points scored (106.3)
30 in points in paint (42.8)
11 in fastbreak points (13.9)
29 in offensive efficiency
30 in shooting % (43.3%)
26 in three point % (34.1%)
30 in two point % (48.2%)
23 in off. rebound % (21.4%)
23 in def. rebound % (76.0%)
29 in total rebound % (47.9%)
17 in opponent blocks (5.1)
27 in opponent steals (8.3)
12 in assists (25.2)
16 in turnovers (14.7)
Defense:
24 in points allowed (114.7)
19 in opponent points in paint (49.1)
24 in opponent fastbreak points (14.5)
23 in defensive efficiency
24 in opponent shooting % (47.5%)
29 in opponent three point % (38.3%)
22 in opponent two point % (53.4%)
21 in blocks (4.7)
6 in steals!!!!!!!!! (8.5)
29 in opponent assists (26.0)
4 in opponent turnovers!!!!!!!!!!! (15.9)
Also Daniel I need to find out more about your illustrations! Fab!
The Wolves had some success post-Butler playing Wiggins at the 2, with Taj Gisbon and RoCo covering for KAT's defense (they were actually above .500 with that line up in a limited amount of games). But they also had to cover for Teague's defense as well, and of course this is not an option for the Dubs (and doesn't need to be, with Dray's defense, although a fairly mobile, shot-blocking 5 would be nice. Maybe Chriss could grow into that role, or more likely Wiseman if they decide to go there - although he might not be good enough - or an FA or trade-exception player).
Maybe EricApricot (or someone else) could do a special trade edition "explain another team's play" which illustrates how Wiggins (mostly unsuccessfully) tried to cope with the increasing lack of interior rim protection and perimeter defense, and how the Warriors might be able to best utilize (or hide) him.
One thing is certain, though, Wiggins is going to be really really tested on defense against the Rockets in the 1st game after the break. It's perhaps unfair to him to face a 5-out offense with new teammates and a new defensive system, but it's good to get the experience now, rather than when it counts (Lacob was definitely right about that, although the not-waiting-to-the-offseason aspect of the trade will be debated for a long time if the Warriors' off-season doesn't go to plan.)
Fun with Player A / Player B...
(Per 36 minutes)
Player A
======
• 6'-9", 7'-1" wingspan, born July 1997 (22 y.o.)
• Former #14 pick, athletic freak who dunks all day (2.4 dunks per 36)
• 16.5 pts on .613 ts / .681 ft / 10.8 reb / 5.1 ast / 1.3 stl / 1.2 blk
Player B
======
• 6'-9", 7'-1" wingspan, born July 1997 (22 y.o.)
• Former #8 pick, athletic freak who dunks all day (2.9 dunks per 36)
• 16.3 pts on .596 ts / .756 ft / 10.7 reb / 3.2 ast / 1.2 stl / 2.0 blk
Hint: Player A is "The Perfect Center for the Modern NBA" (per 538) and "The Fiercest Best Player NBA You Don't Know" (per Zach Lowe). Player B is a walk-on scrub who was released by the crummy Warriors and allowed to clear waivers by 29 other teams before returning.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bam-adebayo-is-the-perfect-center-for-the-modern-nba/
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28678382/bam-adebayo-fiercest-best-nba-player-know
My recent worst take: Believing in WCS and insisting that playing for a better franchise would result in consistent effort and intensity.
Hey, just want to remind people to Heart up these articles if you enjoy them. These writers went out on a limb for us, so let's try to get them more exposure, k?
I've linked a few articles to my personal, real name FB page and will continue to do so to get anyone who loves the Dubs over here. Doesn't take much effort, but us hardcore fans doing a bit like that can make or break a new endeavor like this.
So, if you appreciate the hard work and dedication put in, if you like the articles, if you want to show Dub Nation pride, let's get this spot on the social media map.
P.S. This was totally unprompted by anybody (I don't communicate privately with any of the staff) and comes entirely from my appreciation for the community here, especially the reporters, writers, editors, etc. whose sweat and toil have built this from the smoldering ash-heap of Vox Media...entirely for our reading pleasure. :)
So can we trade this dude and our picks for Zion? Zion is becoming must-watch TV at a crazy rate.
Wiggins net on/off, last five seasons: +6.7, +3.1, +4.1, +1.6, +3.8
To me that doesn't look that much like a guy "actively causing his team to lose games."
Russell net on/off, last five seasons: -5.2, -4.7, -4.9, +0.7, -5.6
That looks more like what MB's talking about.
I have many, many worse takes.
Enjoyed the exchange, between Duby and Daniel/Eric. I remember when Duby was down on the trade; I just didn't want to comment. Frankly, I thought then, as I do now, Wiggins was the perfect wing for our offense! Though his game was not really pushed to superstar level in Minnesota, he definitely has star quality and superstar potential. I think with Steph and Klay taking some of the heat off him, and Green's savvy on offensive creation, Wiggins is going to be that awesome 3rd scorer when needed! my concern remains the front line, as it looks like the road to the Finals will be through Lakers the next year or two...If we can figure a way to keep Wiggins and get lucky with best center out of the draft, we may be able to solve my concern...