Porzingas was part of a 3-way trade that included the Grizzlies, and Boston did give up Smart in that deal. There also were a couple of first round picks and some filler involved. Assuming we could have made that three-way deal is definitely a stretch.
IMO Kristaps Porzingis and James Wiseman are not really similar players...
Kristaps seems less mobile and a more accomplished shooter than James was when drafted.
Porzingas had Euro experience playing against adults that Wiseman did not have.
I'm not sure that JW has had the same defensive fundamentals and footwork drilled into him as KP.
KP has had several years of middling performance and injuries in the NBA and is now possibly finding his role on a team that does not rely on his "unicorn" status.
I was in favor of drafting JW and sorry the Warriors did not have the patience to see what he could have developed into.
Methinks you hit the nail on the head...particularly your last sentence. He was poorly-utilized and poorly-developed considering his limited experience base/injury....he was a great kid also, that took it all relatively quietly...
I think that would be a bad move for Wiseman. He needs playing time to improve and show teams that he belongs in the NBA, whereas a season sitting at the end of the dubs bench would likely be his last.
That would be a bad move for *us*. Why, why, WHY in the name of Threesus is this fandom so obsessed with making mediocre-at-best youth work? I do not get it.
Not sure what you mean there. JK is now an established rotation player, and so are TJD and Podz. MM is the only young 'un who isn't getting the minutes. Bringing back JW might be a bad idea, not because he's young, but because he still isn't good enough to crack the rotation.
yes, my comment was only about the idea of bringing JW back - I dont think he has much choice now with JK and Moody - he has to play them, unless they are traded out, which I fear is now a very big likelyhood.
I don't think JK will be traded unless we got back a major star in the deal. Could be wrong of course. MM... dunno. But also let's see what those two add to their game over the summer. They could come into camp and be undeniable.
It's worth noting that JK averaged 26.3 minutes/gm this season, and Wiggs got 27 minutes. So there really wasn't a huge difference. JK started 46 games, more than half. Of course Wiggs' absences opened opportunities for JK.
Let me clarify before someone gets concerned. It is sensible, in my view, to appreciate that good players have careers, and most can do more in their prime than they could do in their rookie year. So, that's fine--you dose their exposure, ratcheting it up as their performance improves. This not a matter of dispute.
However, at the same time, most players can do more in their prime than they can do in their last 4-5 years in the league, ages about 33-38 for even most of the best of them. Most people seem to know that, too, but we can probably find lots of cases of coaches who have developed bonds with some players, and play them well past the time they should be sitting in favor of up-and-coming players.
Take those two observations together, on the third hand, it can really demoralize a team when "Chosen Ones" under-perform consistently while others who could take their place languish on the sidelines.
So, with that in mind, yes, JK is an established rotation player. But on most teams he'd be starting over Wiggins. When Moody plays he usually outplays Klay--at least that's what I recall the stats saying last time I looked--but Moody still isn't getting consistent minutes, and it is uncertain if that's gonna change.
I know, the roster isn't ideal. But teams that put their best 5 on the floor rarely lose concentration, blow assignments, and generally underperform as much as the Dubs did last year.
That's why I said what I said. It is no longer a matter of playing JK and Moody to develop them, even though, yes, they have more to learn and playing time is an opportunity to improve. It has, in my opinion, reached the point where winning requires playing JK and Moody regular rotation minutes, and probably starting JK over Wigs (if both are still here). So, that's why I say, IF Kerr still sees them as "young guys," as players he's not going to rely on, then we're looking at, at best, first round exits. Maybe even a sweep or two. BUT, I could be wrong, obviously, and I hope I am.
Let's delve more into your scenario of playing JK over Wiggs. JK is supposedly a PF. We've got Draymond and TDJ in the paint, Moody or Klay at SG, and Steph. How does JK replace Wiggs? This is the only spot that is really disputed. No way should Wiggs be playing as he's let the team down big time, yet JK as his replacement just to get him on the floor? The only other scenario is to not start TDJ and have Dray/JK/Moody/Klay/Steph. I think it's a losing proposition and doesn't change the chemistry of the team and keeps the status quo in place. No innovation from Kerr is his hallmark since the two timeline narrative began to appear. They don't have the players, imo, to level up any longer. We need to see a different mind set from the FO to transition to the reality of the current NBA. That means new blood on the team.
I agree with a lot of your analysis/take here. I think @EA mentioned very early, i.e. right after teh DUBS entered post-season, that he hopes Kerr can figure our a way to integrate JK into the team better -meaning, he changes up the game plan to be less Steph-centric and accommodate JKs skills. But given that Kerr is on a 2-yr plan, I am not sure Kerr sees that as a realistic way to get another champagne-ship for Steph!
"JK is an established rotation player. But on most teams he'd be starting over Wiggins" Well... Wiggs has become an enigma. When he plays up to his '22 level, which we do see sometimes, he is better than JK currently is. But we can't count on Wiggs. JK is still growing, and he still has growing pains. It's hard to be sure who would start on another team.
I want to see Moses get more minutes but that doesn't mean he's better than Klay. Moody is probably the better defender now; certainly he is quicker and has better lateral movement so better defending PoA. Klay can't stay in front of quick players but he is physically stronger and can defend bigger players. If you look at scoring per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions, either way Klay is a much better shooter from distance and overall scoring but Moses is better at 2 pointers. I don't know how much of that is midrange vs at the rim though.
One year, Wiggs made a real difference. Nothing like that has taken place since. Why do you keep hoping? Klay is not the player you think he is. Without Curry and Dray, Klay would have been gone long ago. Moses can shoot. I remember him nailing 3's at SC and in short appearance in NBA games. He doesn't play long enough in Kerr's rotations to get any sense of rhythm and role. The myth of Klay stands in his way and occupies too much space on this team. I'm finished hoping for something that doesn't exist any longer. We had a good run, now we need to make some changes. Probably we will suffer for a season or two while the transition takes place. Seems pretty normal, but can you imagine if we lost Curry, which we will at some point, and we had no plan in place when it happens? That's what it looks like to me at present unless we see in this off season a definitive shift.
If the warriors wanted porzingis, they could have gotten him from the wizards. Boston got it for nothing, we could have beat that offer
Nothing is a bit of a stretch. They sent out Smart, Gallinari, and Muscala.
Wizards got nothing Tyus Jones, muscala and gallinari. They just got rid of him.
Warriors on the other hand got Paul from the same team for jordan poole and a first pick
So instead of Paul we could have porzingis.
Our GM tough that an 39 PG was a better fit than a 7 footer unicorn that had a good season..
I realize now why we didn make the playoffs..
Porzingas was part of a 3-way trade that included the Grizzlies, and Boston did give up Smart in that deal. There also were a couple of first round picks and some filler involved. Assuming we could have made that three-way deal is definitely a stretch.
Why a strech?
Boston actually got a porzingis AND a pick.
Wizards got only a second
No need for a three way deal. Paul was making the same that porzingis.
Thinking about it, a rim protector, blocking 3 point shooting seven footer.
Perfect pairing for dray and kuminga
IMO Kristaps Porzingis and James Wiseman are not really similar players...
Kristaps seems less mobile and a more accomplished shooter than James was when drafted.
Porzingas had Euro experience playing against adults that Wiseman did not have.
I'm not sure that JW has had the same defensive fundamentals and footwork drilled into him as KP.
KP has had several years of middling performance and injuries in the NBA and is now possibly finding his role on a team that does not rely on his "unicorn" status.
I was in favor of drafting JW and sorry the Warriors did not have the patience to see what he could have developed into.
Methinks you hit the nail on the head...particularly your last sentence. He was poorly-utilized and poorly-developed considering his limited experience base/injury....he was a great kid also, that took it all relatively quietly...
Struggling to see how European bigs with multi level skill sets = draft American big with 3 games post HS experience.
Seems more connected to say this is why Smiley was a good risk, but we pulled him out of Europe too soon and he didn’t grow as tall as we hoped?
Or this is why we wished Chet (an American with those skills??!!??) and Wemby were available in our draft?
Wiseman was tall enough and athletic enough and supposedly had a shot. If all that worked out, he’d be a comparable player.
Still wouldn't mind W's signing Wiseman to a minimum next season, see what we can get the big guy to do as the 15th man.
I think that would be a bad move for Wiseman. He needs playing time to improve and show teams that he belongs in the NBA, whereas a season sitting at the end of the dubs bench would likely be his last.
That would be a bad move for *us*. Why, why, WHY in the name of Threesus is this fandom so obsessed with making mediocre-at-best youth work? I do not get it.
Yeah, steve Kerr has 2 years left and he is not going down with young guys
Not sure what you mean there. JK is now an established rotation player, and so are TJD and Podz. MM is the only young 'un who isn't getting the minutes. Bringing back JW might be a bad idea, not because he's young, but because he still isn't good enough to crack the rotation.
yes, my comment was only about the idea of bringing JW back - I dont think he has much choice now with JK and Moody - he has to play them, unless they are traded out, which I fear is now a very big likelyhood.
I don't think JK will be traded unless we got back a major star in the deal. Could be wrong of course. MM... dunno. But also let's see what those two add to their game over the summer. They could come into camp and be undeniable.
It's worth noting that JK averaged 26.3 minutes/gm this season, and Wiggs got 27 minutes. So there really wasn't a huge difference. JK started 46 games, more than half. Of course Wiggs' absences opened opportunities for JK.
Hmm. Does Kerr still see JK and Moody as young guys? If so, then, in my opinion, the next two seasons are already, at best, first round exits.
Let me clarify before someone gets concerned. It is sensible, in my view, to appreciate that good players have careers, and most can do more in their prime than they could do in their rookie year. So, that's fine--you dose their exposure, ratcheting it up as their performance improves. This not a matter of dispute.
However, at the same time, most players can do more in their prime than they can do in their last 4-5 years in the league, ages about 33-38 for even most of the best of them. Most people seem to know that, too, but we can probably find lots of cases of coaches who have developed bonds with some players, and play them well past the time they should be sitting in favor of up-and-coming players.
Take those two observations together, on the third hand, it can really demoralize a team when "Chosen Ones" under-perform consistently while others who could take their place languish on the sidelines.
So, with that in mind, yes, JK is an established rotation player. But on most teams he'd be starting over Wiggins. When Moody plays he usually outplays Klay--at least that's what I recall the stats saying last time I looked--but Moody still isn't getting consistent minutes, and it is uncertain if that's gonna change.
I know, the roster isn't ideal. But teams that put their best 5 on the floor rarely lose concentration, blow assignments, and generally underperform as much as the Dubs did last year.
That's why I said what I said. It is no longer a matter of playing JK and Moody to develop them, even though, yes, they have more to learn and playing time is an opportunity to improve. It has, in my opinion, reached the point where winning requires playing JK and Moody regular rotation minutes, and probably starting JK over Wigs (if both are still here). So, that's why I say, IF Kerr still sees them as "young guys," as players he's not going to rely on, then we're looking at, at best, first round exits. Maybe even a sweep or two. BUT, I could be wrong, obviously, and I hope I am.
Let's delve more into your scenario of playing JK over Wiggs. JK is supposedly a PF. We've got Draymond and TDJ in the paint, Moody or Klay at SG, and Steph. How does JK replace Wiggs? This is the only spot that is really disputed. No way should Wiggs be playing as he's let the team down big time, yet JK as his replacement just to get him on the floor? The only other scenario is to not start TDJ and have Dray/JK/Moody/Klay/Steph. I think it's a losing proposition and doesn't change the chemistry of the team and keeps the status quo in place. No innovation from Kerr is his hallmark since the two timeline narrative began to appear. They don't have the players, imo, to level up any longer. We need to see a different mind set from the FO to transition to the reality of the current NBA. That means new blood on the team.
I agree with a lot of your analysis/take here. I think @EA mentioned very early, i.e. right after teh DUBS entered post-season, that he hopes Kerr can figure our a way to integrate JK into the team better -meaning, he changes up the game plan to be less Steph-centric and accommodate JKs skills. But given that Kerr is on a 2-yr plan, I am not sure Kerr sees that as a realistic way to get another champagne-ship for Steph!
"JK is an established rotation player. But on most teams he'd be starting over Wiggins" Well... Wiggs has become an enigma. When he plays up to his '22 level, which we do see sometimes, he is better than JK currently is. But we can't count on Wiggs. JK is still growing, and he still has growing pains. It's hard to be sure who would start on another team.
I want to see Moses get more minutes but that doesn't mean he's better than Klay. Moody is probably the better defender now; certainly he is quicker and has better lateral movement so better defending PoA. Klay can't stay in front of quick players but he is physically stronger and can defend bigger players. If you look at scoring per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions, either way Klay is a much better shooter from distance and overall scoring but Moses is better at 2 pointers. I don't know how much of that is midrange vs at the rim though.
One year, Wiggs made a real difference. Nothing like that has taken place since. Why do you keep hoping? Klay is not the player you think he is. Without Curry and Dray, Klay would have been gone long ago. Moses can shoot. I remember him nailing 3's at SC and in short appearance in NBA games. He doesn't play long enough in Kerr's rotations to get any sense of rhythm and role. The myth of Klay stands in his way and occupies too much space on this team. I'm finished hoping for something that doesn't exist any longer. We had a good run, now we need to make some changes. Probably we will suffer for a season or two while the transition takes place. Seems pretty normal, but can you imagine if we lost Curry, which we will at some point, and we had no plan in place when it happens? That's what it looks like to me at present unless we see in this off season a definitive shift.