Basically. He’s was still on the team when Steph was drafted. Closest comparison I can make of that backcourt that makes sense is early Dame and CJ if they were taking more midrange jumpers.
Monta was a hell of a player though, Nellie had the right idea for who he could be but he wanted to take too many difficult, inefficient shots. But when he was on though…showtime.
Fair comp in terms of overall style/structure, with the caveats that Steph is much better than Dame, and CJ is much better than Monta. (And Dame is much better than CJ, which shows what kind of a chasm we’re talking between Steph and Monta, lol).
Weird random stat. Last year of Durant, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 into season, I glanced at Shot Attempts Per Game.
Curry 17.7
Durant 17.7
Klay 17.7
A fun statistical anomaly. But not as good as Klay missed 941 days due to injury and played exactly 941 minutes in the regular season last year. That stat is hypnotizing.
If their is a Purple Heart wing in the HWFL, he should be in it. Like the soldiers who died on the beach of Normandy, his time as a Warrior was sacrificed to allow this Dynasty to establish a beachhead in the upper echelons of the Western Conference. Not to diminish his talent or playing career, I remember him more as a symbol of change. Monte Ellis was a pallbearer for the Chris Cohen Era, missing his ride back to the Church while Cohen's coffin of false hopes was delivered into the cold Wisconsin soil. Monte was an intersection, where the path of decades of fan abuse came across the Yellow & Blue Brick Road. He was a Warrior because he didn't resign himself to the colorless world of Cohen. He fought and he gave the fans the only thing he had: fearlessness in a losing battle. He was the last thing we loved that didn't make it onto the lifeboat. And for that, he shall be honored.
Besides the inefficiency and the rift in the team he was creating by calling out the two small guard lineup, I think the sexual harassment lawsuit sealed the deal.
Aug 12, 2022·edited Aug 12, 2022Liked by Eric Apricot
My name is Asher B. And I approve this message.
Sure Monta had basketball and sort of personal or contractual weaknesses but when a guy on your team regularly torches other teams especially when he’s small and dynamic you just root for him like crazy.
He regularly hoisted lots of shots at low-ish efficiency in Warriors losses. I don’t consider that “torching other teams,” personally. If you look in the hoops dictionary under “SOMEBODY has to score your points,” you get a pic of Monta. :-(
He was a mostly lovable dude, though, gutsy and fun to watch until the whole “contributing to mildly entertaining losses” thing got old. But his finest Warrior moment for me actually came *after* I had pretty much given up him as a winning basketball player: the legendary game at the end of Steph’s rookie season where he played all 48 and put up an efficient 34, as the Warriors took down the Blazers with only five healthy players. (And Devean George had to stay in the game with six fouls, since you're not allowed to play with four players, lol).
I can totally understand this viewpoint. That's why someone like JTA is definitively more of a HWFL for me than someone like Monta, despite the difference in talent. It's not just an award for "who can score 20 ppg".
That’s like saying that the early years of a romantic relationship went great but then things got rocky or even nasty so we broke it off. But years later, don’t ya look back and try to remember the good times?
That question actually lends itself to an interesting discussion. Yeah, I look back on some my my-exes fondly but with others it's more like "what was I thinking?" Same with WFL (or HWFL) So, judgment call, right?
Aug 12, 2022·edited Aug 12, 2022Liked by Eric Apricot
I'll admit to thinking that trading Ellis for Bogut was a bad move primarily due to being traumatized for life by the Erick Dampier experience. Let's trade a guy that can get 25pts/game for a big man that spends 1/2 his time in the trainer's room didn't seem like a light years ahead move. As it turned out, his time with the Warriors was the healthiest 3 year stint of Bogut's career since he was a rookie and Ellis was never as good for anybody else as he was for the Warriors.
Aug 12, 2022·edited Aug 12, 2022Liked by Eric Apricot
And he was never very good for us, outside of his one efficient season in ‘07-08 in which he was got most of his O off easy buckets created by Baron and/or SJax. IIRC, in the We Believe run he spent a lot of the key moments observing the grownups from the bench. Overall: .523 true shooting, Westbrick-esque from 3, poor rebounder, meh passer, poor off-ball player. poor defender. The perfect Cohan-Era “star.”
I totally loved him for a time, tho, shameless laundry-rooter that I am…
Not efficient for sure but when your team is that bad... good basketball and efficiency just seem like a pipe dream... and you just settle for the occasional "wow" plays
I had an irrational dislike for Monta when he was playing. I think it was his gambling for steals that really annoyed me, and then I kind of wrote him off after the moped incident. Could have been a decent bench player, but my God was he immature.
The irrational part of it is that he was miles the best offensive player we had, and was fun to watch, so it's not like he did nothing.
I’m enjoying Jason Timpf’s countdown of his top 25 players. He makes it very clear it’s just his opinion, but his reasoning behind who’s where is at least a fun listen. He’s not a hot take click-baiter at all, just loves talkin’ hoops.
I partly agree, but I do love me some numbers so I can't go all-in. Agreed:
- some take rankings too seriously
- it is especially hard to rank players in different era and different situations
- no statistic or combination of are going to tell the whole story of a players contributions.
Disagree:
- I don't think comparing players is itself bad, and I would say it may even be essential to fandom. Like I can't imagine being constrained to not think that Curry is better than Chiozza, I think I would have less fun if I had to think like that.
- While numbers can't tell you everything, they can be useful reference points. If numbers had no use we could eliminate box scores, but it would also become a lot harder to know much of anything about players in games you didn't watch (and no one has time to watch 1,230 games a year).
- So overall I think ranking players is fine as a fun activity for fans (especially in the off-season). Everyone is going to have different rankings, since for reasons you mentioned there is no statistic or number that is going to answer it. But that's fine. While there's no answer if Jordan or Kareem or LeBron or Russell (or apparently Chiozza) is the best of all time, I think it's fine for any individual to have their own thoughts on who they think is.
By the way, if you missed out on our previous full discussion of Monta, you can catch up here: https://dubnationhq.com/p/my-worst-take-the-warriors-should
I wasn't watching NBA in the Monta era but it sounds like Ellis Island was the gateway to a lot of pre dynasty dubs fans
Basically. He’s was still on the team when Steph was drafted. Closest comparison I can make of that backcourt that makes sense is early Dame and CJ if they were taking more midrange jumpers.
Monta was a hell of a player though, Nellie had the right idea for who he could be but he wanted to take too many difficult, inefficient shots. But when he was on though…showtime.
Fair comp in terms of overall style/structure, with the caveats that Steph is much better than Dame, and CJ is much better than Monta. (And Dame is much better than CJ, which shows what kind of a chasm we’re talking between Steph and Monta, lol).
Career net on-off per 100 possessions:
Steph +11.6
Dame +7.1
CJ +3.6
Monta -1.4
====
Career TS%:
Steph .624
Dame .583
CJ .553
Monta .523
I find this web site helpful to remember the difference between a straw man and other ways of filling up the Internet.
https://www.ucm.es/data/cont/docs/107-2016-02-17-Fallacious%20Arguments.pdf
Weird random stat. Last year of Durant, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 into season, I glanced at Shot Attempts Per Game.
Curry 17.7
Durant 17.7
Klay 17.7
A fun statistical anomaly. But not as good as Klay missed 941 days due to injury and played exactly 941 minutes in the regular season last year. That stat is hypnotizing.
First I'd heard the 941 reg. season minutes. That's just kind of mind-blowing.
If their is a Purple Heart wing in the HWFL, he should be in it. Like the soldiers who died on the beach of Normandy, his time as a Warrior was sacrificed to allow this Dynasty to establish a beachhead in the upper echelons of the Western Conference. Not to diminish his talent or playing career, I remember him more as a symbol of change. Monte Ellis was a pallbearer for the Chris Cohen Era, missing his ride back to the Church while Cohen's coffin of false hopes was delivered into the cold Wisconsin soil. Monte was an intersection, where the path of decades of fan abuse came across the Yellow & Blue Brick Road. He was a Warrior because he didn't resign himself to the colorless world of Cohen. He fought and he gave the fans the only thing he had: fearlessness in a losing battle. He was the last thing we loved that didn't make it onto the lifeboat. And for that, he shall be honored.
If we get Hypnotized Klay for an entire season, the league really is doomed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpX1mK8QRaI
Those invisible strings will pull the basketball straight from his hands into the basket, no matter where he is.
2022-23 NBA Win Totals as projected by Caesar's Sportbook today. Comments?
Team Wins
Celtics 54.5
Suns 53.5
Bucks 52.5
Warriors 52.5
Clippers 51.5
76ers 50.5
Grizzlies 50.5
Heat 50.5
Nuggets 49.5
Mavericks 48.5
Honestly I want to see Hollingers predictions now just so I can laugh at whatever number he throws out
At a quick glance…
Too low: Nuggets, Bucks
Too high: Suns, Grizzlies, Heat
Too low: Clippers, Warriors, Bucks.
Too high: Suns, 76ers. I don't know what to make of Philly but not a lot.
I was not among those who were sad or mad when Monta was traded for Bogut. I'll just leave it at that.
Besides the inefficiency and the rift in the team he was creating by calling out the two small guard lineup, I think the sexual harassment lawsuit sealed the deal.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/12/21/former-warriors-employee-files-sexual-harassment-suit-against-monta-ellis/
I thought Jamison would've had at least one 25ppg season... but nope... peaked at 24.9
My name is Asher B. And I approve this message.
Sure Monta had basketball and sort of personal or contractual weaknesses but when a guy on your team regularly torches other teams especially when he’s small and dynamic you just root for him like crazy.
He regularly hoisted lots of shots at low-ish efficiency in Warriors losses. I don’t consider that “torching other teams,” personally. If you look in the hoops dictionary under “SOMEBODY has to score your points,” you get a pic of Monta. :-(
He was a mostly lovable dude, though, gutsy and fun to watch until the whole “contributing to mildly entertaining losses” thing got old. But his finest Warrior moment for me actually came *after* I had pretty much given up him as a winning basketball player: the legendary game at the end of Steph’s rookie season where he played all 48 and put up an efficient 34, as the Warriors took down the Blazers with only five healthy players. (And Devean George had to stay in the game with six fouls, since you're not allowed to play with four players, lol).
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201004140POR.html
Craziest game ever
Gotta love the 2007 Rookie/Sophmore Game. Ellis and Lee dunks for days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8At2gmxgLpc
I liked Monta for the first few years, but he lost me with the moped thing and with "I can't play in the same backcourt with him."
Contrast with Steph adapting his game as needed when KD arrived on the scene, leading the Ws to two championships.
I think of Monta as being a little too full of himself and not much of a team player. Definitely not WFL or even HWFL for me.
I can totally understand this viewpoint. That's why someone like JTA is definitively more of a HWFL for me than someone like Monta, despite the difference in talent. It's not just an award for "who can score 20 ppg".
That’s like saying that the early years of a romantic relationship went great but then things got rocky or even nasty so we broke it off. But years later, don’t ya look back and try to remember the good times?
That question actually lends itself to an interesting discussion. Yeah, I look back on some my my-exes fondly but with others it's more like "what was I thinking?" Same with WFL (or HWFL) So, judgment call, right?
KD, yes
DMC, yes
Baron Davis, yes
Monta, no
Baze, no (but maybe in a few years)
Patrick McCaw, don't even get me started
I think with this inclusion into HWFL we can officially say that Monta Ellis finally have it all
I'll admit to thinking that trading Ellis for Bogut was a bad move primarily due to being traumatized for life by the Erick Dampier experience. Let's trade a guy that can get 25pts/game for a big man that spends 1/2 his time in the trainer's room didn't seem like a light years ahead move. As it turned out, his time with the Warriors was the healthiest 3 year stint of Bogut's career since he was a rookie and Ellis was never as good for anybody else as he was for the Warriors.
And he was never very good for us, outside of his one efficient season in ‘07-08 in which he was got most of his O off easy buckets created by Baron and/or SJax. IIRC, in the We Believe run he spent a lot of the key moments observing the grownups from the bench. Overall: .523 true shooting, Westbrick-esque from 3, poor rebounder, meh passer, poor off-ball player. poor defender. The perfect Cohan-Era “star.”
I totally loved him for a time, tho, shameless laundry-rooter that I am…
Not efficient for sure but when your team is that bad... good basketball and efficiency just seem like a pipe dream... and you just settle for the occasional "wow" plays
I had an irrational dislike for Monta when he was playing. I think it was his gambling for steals that really annoyed me, and then I kind of wrote him off after the moped incident. Could have been a decent bench player, but my God was he immature.
The irrational part of it is that he was miles the best offensive player we had, and was fun to watch, so it's not like he did nothing.
I remember reading after the trade (vaguely remember it as a sleepy freud post) that Monta had the 10th shortest wingspan in the league.
I remember getting a sense at that moment: ahhh, that clears up a lot...
I’m enjoying Jason Timpf’s countdown of his top 25 players. He makes it very clear it’s just his opinion, but his reasoning behind who’s where is at least a fun listen. He’s not a hot take click-baiter at all, just loves talkin’ hoops.
I partly agree, but I do love me some numbers so I can't go all-in. Agreed:
- some take rankings too seriously
- it is especially hard to rank players in different era and different situations
- no statistic or combination of are going to tell the whole story of a players contributions.
Disagree:
- I don't think comparing players is itself bad, and I would say it may even be essential to fandom. Like I can't imagine being constrained to not think that Curry is better than Chiozza, I think I would have less fun if I had to think like that.
- While numbers can't tell you everything, they can be useful reference points. If numbers had no use we could eliminate box scores, but it would also become a lot harder to know much of anything about players in games you didn't watch (and no one has time to watch 1,230 games a year).
- So overall I think ranking players is fine as a fun activity for fans (especially in the off-season). Everyone is going to have different rankings, since for reasons you mentioned there is no statistic or number that is going to answer it. But that's fine. While there's no answer if Jordan or Kareem or LeBron or Russell (or apparently Chiozza) is the best of all time, I think it's fine for any individual to have their own thoughts on who they think is.
I couldn't agree more. This OG just scrolls on when he sees all of that crap.
LOL It does not. I don't think I've ever had one.
My cat is Dill. When I call him in at night, I call "Dilly-Dill, Dilly-Dill, Dilly-Dill, where are you?"