I'm really surprised by the lack of support here. Considering the amount of support that JTA, DLee, and GP2 got, I'm surprised OPJ didn't get more. I thought it was all post-parade euphoria buoying the votes, but now I gotta throw that hypothesis out the window.
I'd take OPJ over: Speights, Clark, GR3, Spellman, Allen Iverson, Damian Lillard, Thunder mascot, Bro-in-Law, Giannis, Cousins, Burks, Biedrins, Oubre, Paschall, Cook, Dlo. To be clear that is a maybe. Eh, Sleepy said yes so I'll vote yes.
Aug 23, 2022·edited Aug 23, 2022Liked by Eric Apricot
The Bouncer at Club HWFL sees a tall shadowy silhouette in the night. It's a figure he hasn't seen in a while and it takes him a beat to recognize who it is... an ex Warrior who used to play years ago. Someone who could sure bring the party like no one's business, as the bouncer recollects with fondness.
"Wilt is that you, you crazy SOB?!", he exclaims as OPJ steps into the light.
"Ahh yeah, yeah it's me Wilt", OPJ answers, seeing if the old bouncer notices it's not.
Squinting, the bouncer reacts, "Well I'll be. This Field of Dreams shit sure is whack in real life. You almost looks like you were when you were in your prime playing days!".
"Uhh, yeah I get that all the time. I take it my names on the list?", says OPJ.
"Sure is Big Stilt, right this way!".
OPJ nods at the bouncer and takes a step inside the exuberant HWFL club. No sooner than he sees the surprised faces of all the members, he gets yanked back out the door and lands skidding on his ass.
The bouncer looks down on him abhorrently.
"YOU AIN'T NO WILT CHAMBERLAIN!", the bouncer bellows.
"Sorry man. I'm Otto Porter Jnr, and I won a ring with the Dubs last season. I was just playing along to get in the club you know. What gave it away?"
"They didn't call him 'The Big Dipper' for no reason. And you? You barely dipped to get under that door. Just cos you won a ring with the Dubs doesn't mean your entry in here is automatic."
I had a reply wherein someone had Klay ranked somewhere between 5-8 in value on the team. This made me think, what is it about Klay's game that leads people to undervalue him? I spent 20 minutes in my think tank and this is what I came up with. Klay is nonchalant. Klay doesn't expend unnecessary energy. Watch him move on the court and he uses the exact amount of energy needed to get around a screen or shade a defender, exactly, not a bit more, not a bit less. If 'Japanese Tea Service' was a basketball player, it would be Klay. He does not slap his hands on the floor while in a deep defensive crouch. He does not poke his arm needlessly at the ball if there isn't a real opportunity to swipe it clean. He doesn't go flying high to block shots he knows he's not gonna block. On offense, he doesn't run overly fast for show. He knows what it will take to get to his spot and he gets their without having to look at his watch. When he is momentarily out of a play's action, he looks like he could very well be standing in line at Chick-Fillet. But when the ball reaches his hands, no one, and I mean no one, squares up into a perfect shooting form like Klay.
People look at his high salary, he missed 2.5 years and they forgot who he really was, like they are seeing Klay in a fog. (Yes, that's him in the Bay on a boat.) They see Curry shimmy, Poole jiggle and Dray fizzle, all while Klay serves up Green Tea Threes with no wasted motion and the steady hand of a Samurai Warrior. I understand how some can undervalue Klay. Anyone in this camp or on the fence, watch a game. Turn off the sound, shut out the noise, don't be distracted by the numbers on the screen or physical commotion of the other 9 players on the court. Just watch Klay play. Simply, effortlessly, with Zen like precision. Is Klay playing basketball or is basketball playing Klay?
I ranked him in that 5-8th range and stated reasons: 7th in PER, 9th in TS%, 6th in WS, 9th in BPM, 4th in VORP. I included the caveat that he has not recovered from injury yet.
I love his zen attitude, have not forgotten who he was, and hope he returns. 2014-19 he was 4-5th in those measures. All while defending the best ball handler. The eye test put him only behind Curry/Green/Durant, MVP/DPOY level guys. These playoffs the eye test put first time all-star Wiggins, frustrated Draymond, and role player Looney ahead of recovering Klay.
As a McGee fan I've never found Kerr's minutes to accurately represent on-the-court importance. Best team per 36 ever was Curry/Klay/Durant/Green/McGee, but Kerr only played them when absolutely necessary. There must be huge chemistry/off-the-court positives to Klay and negatives to McGee that I'd love to know more about, but just don't have the stats/info to comment. No doubt Klay has endurance, and his game is energy efficient (37 points on 4 dribbles?) but I'm not going to rank Curry 3rd because Wiggins/Klay played more minutes.
I like this point. In a way, minutes are king (at least when you are a champion). I like GP2, wish he were still here, but the guy played like 15 minutes a game. If he were really one of the most impactful players in the NBA, don't you think he would have managed more? Or is Kerr just that stupid?? How many stupid guys have 9 rings??
Klay played the 2nd most minutes in the finals. More than Curry, 5 minutes short of Wiggins. Are we to believe this is because Kerr pitied poor Klay's ego so much that he left him out there even though there was a better play? In the finals?? NO, he got that playing time because he IS m-f-ing Klay, not he WAS, and guess what -- the CHAMP validated all. Next year dude's gonna be even better, WATCH OUT!
I can see the minutes argument. A fully tired Klay must be better than a 1/2 tired GP2/OPJ/Bjelica. I just can't put post-injury Klay ahead of playoff Wiggins, yet. Wiggins was absolutely essential on both ends, #2 for sure. I've always valued Green over Klay, but that could be flipping as their games age. So really the complaint is why Poole over Klay? Poole scored 10 more pts than Klay per 100 possessions used, (TS% .654 vs .550) and created more of his own shots.
I was watching Klay in the Finals. The point being, we are all used to people undervaluing Draymond and how and why they do. But there hasn't been as much conversation about how and why Klay may be valued the way he is. Since we have debated Draymond's value to the moon and back, figured Klay ought to get a little more attention, especially given all the salary cap issues the Warriors will be dealing with in the future.
Aug 23, 2022·edited Aug 23, 2022Liked by Eric Apricot
Alright someone made a very good argument on the last thread in regards to GP2s entry and one of his or her reasons was what Gary means to the Bay. I still would have Dubnation Legend Crusty Quips right on the edge of the border as a Warriors hall of Famer and GP2 barely out but if I were to apply his or her very well reasoned criteria, Porter is a firm No. Solid signing but he doesn’t have the same connection to the bay that GP2 does albeit similar impact in helping us win the chip though
Aug 22, 2022·edited Aug 23, 2022Liked by Eric Apricot
Again, yes. Without Otto we don’t win the title. He played 3-5, came up hitting deep shots when it counted (even if it took what felt like almost the entire second half of the season to get out of his slump) and played quality defense for the minutes he could.
(Edit: forgot to add that this deal on a minimum was about as close to a home run as you can get)
And besides he’s one of Wilts grandchildren — how the hell are you gonna leave him off? 😉
My vote is NO. Not because I didn't love watching OPJ, I did, but his solid contributions off the bench didn't quite reach the level of excitement and impact that made me vote yes for GPII. I understood GPII leaving for a well-deserved bag, but OPJ already had his bag with $128M in career earnings. He left because he wanted to leave, not because he couldn't afford to stay.
Fully agree, you nearly wrote my post for me verbatim (except I was a No on GPII HWFL). Really like Otto, no hard feelings, wish he'd stayed, but my vote is also a No.
Fwiw, rumor is he loved it in GS and was seriously mulling taking the minimum to stay, but that his wife’s connections to the Toronto area ultimately swayed him.
There will be an end to this era and when we look back at the championship years, there will be many key role players that will come to mind. No doubt Otto will be one of them.
Aug 22, 2022·edited Aug 22, 2022Liked by Eric Apricot
I am going to vote Yes, in a futile effort for achieving HWFL, but for the sole purpose of trying to make sure the official records don't show him ranked below Oubre, as he is currently in danger of.
Edit: I also noticed Javale McGee has not been polled nor is he in the upcoming nominee list, so consider this a formal nomination!
I attach a special meaning to the term "Warrior" in the context of anything related to the Steph.Klay/Dray/Kerr years. It's more than just being a member of the team and more than the generic sports cliche of being a fighter. On the surface it's hard to discern the difference between OPJ and GP2 in one direction and Nick Young in the other. All one year players who contributed to title seasons.
To me though being a Warrior embodies that special quality of team first inspiring play that I can not quite describe, but I believe that many of us who feel how special this iteration of GSW is feel deep in our bones. Some players fit this deeper definition of a Warrior to me and when they do, the superficial measurements, like years played or stats become less important to me.
By this definition GP2 gets a huge boost (and KD, as awesome as player as he is, looses something by comparison). This is why I voted for Damion Lee and JTA. I probably wouldn't have voted for either if they'd only played one year (not enough contribution) and I wouldn't have voted for NIck Young even if he'd contributed to 2 championships (too much 'me' not enough 'team).
OPJ is not quite as passion inducing for me as GP2 (I think people who voted against GP2 should be forced to do the naked GOT shame walk in order to be redeemed). As another poster pointed out he was drafted high and made a lot of money. However, he was a consumate team player with no 'me' at all that I saw in his game and he contributed to a championship. These are the guys I honor and HWFL (emphasis on the H) feels appropriate to me.
(also, and no one has mentioned this anywhere on DNHQ, ever, he looks like he could be Wilt Chamberlain's grandson, which is kind of cool ;p)
I didn't vote, but I see it this way too. Otto had "it" in the sense that I was always excited to see him come in. I wouldn't say that about D-Lee and only sometimes about JTA.
Convincing argument. Made me consider changing my vote. I echo your sentiments. But I voted for D Lee, JTA & GP2 in large part due to their circumstances and struggles to get a foothold in the league. OPJ was already a damn good player, injured and on bad teams, but he had smoke. Golden state is a bus stop, maybe the nicest bus stop you've ever seen, but a bus stop nonetheless, on his career path. D Lee, JTA & GP2 all climbed mountains to find themselves worthy contributors on a Dynastic team. Like you, Warrior does have a special meaning to me. OPJ has had to battle injuries and getting mistaken for Wilt. The other guys have had a tougher road, which is what put them in a different category for me. But you had me thinking ...
No... loved his contribution, and will cheer him on as he gets his ring, but if OPJ is a HWFL, it's gonna set a pretty low bar as a forward looking precedent.
Side note: I think our bar has risen as the years pass, and for good reason. We're past the "PLAYOFFS?!?!!?" era, so fan opinions from those times shouldn't influence who does or doesn't get voted in going forward.
No on OPJ. I voted yes for the last three guys - DLee, JTA, and GPII - in large part because they were plucky underdogs who rose up and beat the odds in blue and gold. OPJ was a shiny draft pick once upon a time who added needed depth to the core for one championship season, but I'm not going to root for him the same way I'll be rooting for those other guys.
FYI the last open thread is at https://dubnationhq.com/p/dub-nation-hq-comments-of-week-plus-be7/comments
Quite the barnburner so far! 30 yea, 28 nay. @Eric, what do you do in the event of a tie?
The threshold for HWFL is 75% so OPJ will definitely fall short. The only question is whether he can make 50% for Honorary Warrior.
If it’s an exact tie, then I suppose I’ll cast the deciding vote!
I'm really surprised by the lack of support here. Considering the amount of support that JTA, DLee, and GP2 got, I'm surprised OPJ didn't get more. I thought it was all post-parade euphoria buoying the votes, but now I gotta throw that hypothesis out the window.
Nope. For all reasons stated.
I'd take OPJ over: Speights, Clark, GR3, Spellman, Allen Iverson, Damian Lillard, Thunder mascot, Bro-in-Law, Giannis, Cousins, Burks, Biedrins, Oubre, Paschall, Cook, Dlo. To be clear that is a maybe. Eh, Sleepy said yes so I'll vote yes.
The Bouncer at Club HWFL sees a tall shadowy silhouette in the night. It's a figure he hasn't seen in a while and it takes him a beat to recognize who it is... an ex Warrior who used to play years ago. Someone who could sure bring the party like no one's business, as the bouncer recollects with fondness.
"Wilt is that you, you crazy SOB?!", he exclaims as OPJ steps into the light.
"Ahh yeah, yeah it's me Wilt", OPJ answers, seeing if the old bouncer notices it's not.
Squinting, the bouncer reacts, "Well I'll be. This Field of Dreams shit sure is whack in real life. You almost looks like you were when you were in your prime playing days!".
"Uhh, yeah I get that all the time. I take it my names on the list?", says OPJ.
"Sure is Big Stilt, right this way!".
OPJ nods at the bouncer and takes a step inside the exuberant HWFL club. No sooner than he sees the surprised faces of all the members, he gets yanked back out the door and lands skidding on his ass.
The bouncer looks down on him abhorrently.
"YOU AIN'T NO WILT CHAMBERLAIN!", the bouncer bellows.
"Sorry man. I'm Otto Porter Jnr, and I won a ring with the Dubs last season. I was just playing along to get in the club you know. What gave it away?"
"They didn't call him 'The Big Dipper' for no reason. And you? You barely dipped to get under that door. Just cos you won a ring with the Dubs doesn't mean your entry in here is automatic."
I would like to co-sign this “no” :)
I had a reply wherein someone had Klay ranked somewhere between 5-8 in value on the team. This made me think, what is it about Klay's game that leads people to undervalue him? I spent 20 minutes in my think tank and this is what I came up with. Klay is nonchalant. Klay doesn't expend unnecessary energy. Watch him move on the court and he uses the exact amount of energy needed to get around a screen or shade a defender, exactly, not a bit more, not a bit less. If 'Japanese Tea Service' was a basketball player, it would be Klay. He does not slap his hands on the floor while in a deep defensive crouch. He does not poke his arm needlessly at the ball if there isn't a real opportunity to swipe it clean. He doesn't go flying high to block shots he knows he's not gonna block. On offense, he doesn't run overly fast for show. He knows what it will take to get to his spot and he gets their without having to look at his watch. When he is momentarily out of a play's action, he looks like he could very well be standing in line at Chick-Fillet. But when the ball reaches his hands, no one, and I mean no one, squares up into a perfect shooting form like Klay.
People look at his high salary, he missed 2.5 years and they forgot who he really was, like they are seeing Klay in a fog. (Yes, that's him in the Bay on a boat.) They see Curry shimmy, Poole jiggle and Dray fizzle, all while Klay serves up Green Tea Threes with no wasted motion and the steady hand of a Samurai Warrior. I understand how some can undervalue Klay. Anyone in this camp or on the fence, watch a game. Turn off the sound, shut out the noise, don't be distracted by the numbers on the screen or physical commotion of the other 9 players on the court. Just watch Klay play. Simply, effortlessly, with Zen like precision. Is Klay playing basketball or is basketball playing Klay?
Kattttzzzz! The water splashes.
I ranked him in that 5-8th range and stated reasons: 7th in PER, 9th in TS%, 6th in WS, 9th in BPM, 4th in VORP. I included the caveat that he has not recovered from injury yet.
I love his zen attitude, have not forgotten who he was, and hope he returns. 2014-19 he was 4-5th in those measures. All while defending the best ball handler. The eye test put him only behind Curry/Green/Durant, MVP/DPOY level guys. These playoffs the eye test put first time all-star Wiggins, frustrated Draymond, and role player Looney ahead of recovering Klay.
As a McGee fan I've never found Kerr's minutes to accurately represent on-the-court importance. Best team per 36 ever was Curry/Klay/Durant/Green/McGee, but Kerr only played them when absolutely necessary. There must be huge chemistry/off-the-court positives to Klay and negatives to McGee that I'd love to know more about, but just don't have the stats/info to comment. No doubt Klay has endurance, and his game is energy efficient (37 points on 4 dribbles?) but I'm not going to rank Curry 3rd because Wiggins/Klay played more minutes.
I like this point. In a way, minutes are king (at least when you are a champion). I like GP2, wish he were still here, but the guy played like 15 minutes a game. If he were really one of the most impactful players in the NBA, don't you think he would have managed more? Or is Kerr just that stupid?? How many stupid guys have 9 rings??
Klay played the 2nd most minutes in the finals. More than Curry, 5 minutes short of Wiggins. Are we to believe this is because Kerr pitied poor Klay's ego so much that he left him out there even though there was a better play? In the finals?? NO, he got that playing time because he IS m-f-ing Klay, not he WAS, and guess what -- the CHAMP validated all. Next year dude's gonna be even better, WATCH OUT!
I can see the minutes argument. A fully tired Klay must be better than a 1/2 tired GP2/OPJ/Bjelica. I just can't put post-injury Klay ahead of playoff Wiggins, yet. Wiggins was absolutely essential on both ends, #2 for sure. I've always valued Green over Klay, but that could be flipping as their games age. So really the complaint is why Poole over Klay? Poole scored 10 more pts than Klay per 100 possessions used, (TS% .654 vs .550) and created more of his own shots.
I was watching Klay in the Finals. The point being, we are all used to people undervaluing Draymond and how and why they do. But there hasn't been as much conversation about how and why Klay may be valued the way he is. Since we have debated Draymond's value to the moon and back, figured Klay ought to get a little more attention, especially given all the salary cap issues the Warriors will be dealing with in the future.
Alright someone made a very good argument on the last thread in regards to GP2s entry and one of his or her reasons was what Gary means to the Bay. I still would have Dubnation Legend Crusty Quips right on the edge of the border as a Warriors hall of Famer and GP2 barely out but if I were to apply his or her very well reasoned criteria, Porter is a firm No. Solid signing but he doesn’t have the same connection to the bay that GP2 does albeit similar impact in helping us win the chip though
Damian Green?
Lol fixed it. Good looking out.
Again, yes. Without Otto we don’t win the title. He played 3-5, came up hitting deep shots when it counted (even if it took what felt like almost the entire second half of the season to get out of his slump) and played quality defense for the minutes he could.
(Edit: forgot to add that this deal on a minimum was about as close to a home run as you can get)
And besides he’s one of Wilts grandchildren — how the hell are you gonna leave him off? 😉
My vote is NO. Not because I didn't love watching OPJ, I did, but his solid contributions off the bench didn't quite reach the level of excitement and impact that made me vote yes for GPII. I understood GPII leaving for a well-deserved bag, but OPJ already had his bag with $128M in career earnings. He left because he wanted to leave, not because he couldn't afford to stay.
Fully agree, you nearly wrote my post for me verbatim (except I was a No on GPII HWFL). Really like Otto, no hard feelings, wish he'd stayed, but my vote is also a No.
OPJ is set for life and had a chance to repeat as champ. Instead https://tenor.com/view/rawrawrawr-gif-20693269
Fwiw, rumor is he loved it in GS and was seriously mulling taking the minimum to stay, but that his wife’s connections to the Toronto area ultimately swayed him.
Yes. See: Run_TMC's comment.
There will be an end to this era and when we look back at the championship years, there will be many key role players that will come to mind. No doubt Otto will be one of them.
I am going to vote Yes, in a futile effort for achieving HWFL, but for the sole purpose of trying to make sure the official records don't show him ranked below Oubre, as he is currently in danger of.
Edit: I also noticed Javale McGee has not been polled nor is he in the upcoming nominee list, so consider this a formal nomination!
Yes. Let me 'splain.
I attach a special meaning to the term "Warrior" in the context of anything related to the Steph.Klay/Dray/Kerr years. It's more than just being a member of the team and more than the generic sports cliche of being a fighter. On the surface it's hard to discern the difference between OPJ and GP2 in one direction and Nick Young in the other. All one year players who contributed to title seasons.
To me though being a Warrior embodies that special quality of team first inspiring play that I can not quite describe, but I believe that many of us who feel how special this iteration of GSW is feel deep in our bones. Some players fit this deeper definition of a Warrior to me and when they do, the superficial measurements, like years played or stats become less important to me.
By this definition GP2 gets a huge boost (and KD, as awesome as player as he is, looses something by comparison). This is why I voted for Damion Lee and JTA. I probably wouldn't have voted for either if they'd only played one year (not enough contribution) and I wouldn't have voted for NIck Young even if he'd contributed to 2 championships (too much 'me' not enough 'team).
OPJ is not quite as passion inducing for me as GP2 (I think people who voted against GP2 should be forced to do the naked GOT shame walk in order to be redeemed). As another poster pointed out he was drafted high and made a lot of money. However, he was a consumate team player with no 'me' at all that I saw in his game and he contributed to a championship. These are the guys I honor and HWFL (emphasis on the H) feels appropriate to me.
(also, and no one has mentioned this anywhere on DNHQ, ever, he looks like he could be Wilt Chamberlain's grandson, which is kind of cool ;p)
I didn't vote, but I see it this way too. Otto had "it" in the sense that I was always excited to see him come in. I wouldn't say that about D-Lee and only sometimes about JTA.
Convincing argument. Made me consider changing my vote. I echo your sentiments. But I voted for D Lee, JTA & GP2 in large part due to their circumstances and struggles to get a foothold in the league. OPJ was already a damn good player, injured and on bad teams, but he had smoke. Golden state is a bus stop, maybe the nicest bus stop you've ever seen, but a bus stop nonetheless, on his career path. D Lee, JTA & GP2 all climbed mountains to find themselves worthy contributors on a Dynastic team. Like you, Warrior does have a special meaning to me. OPJ has had to battle injuries and getting mistaken for Wilt. The other guys have had a tougher road, which is what put them in a different category for me. But you had me thinking ...
Your reasoning is also solid (and why I don't advocate the walk of shame for those who vote against OPJ).
I've been knocked down off the fence I was straddling.
Yes vote delivered.
No... loved his contribution, and will cheer him on as he gets his ring, but if OPJ is a HWFL, it's gonna set a pretty low bar as a forward looking precedent.
Side note: I think our bar has risen as the years pass, and for good reason. We're past the "PLAYOFFS?!?!!?" era, so fan opinions from those times shouldn't influence who does or doesn't get voted in going forward.
Yes he is.
No on OPJ. I voted yes for the last three guys - DLee, JTA, and GPII - in large part because they were plucky underdogs who rose up and beat the odds in blue and gold. OPJ was a shiny draft pick once upon a time who added needed depth to the core for one championship season, but I'm not going to root for him the same way I'll be rooting for those other guys.
No.
Seemed more like a marriage (and divorce) of convenience for one year while the kids mature a bit.