Dub Nation HQ Comments of Week, plus open thread
navigating clickbait edition
Dub Nation has decided
Trogdor (11 ♡):
Well that's embarrassing, I'm the lone DLee naysayer specifically quoted in the article!
Haha, it's all good. Congrats to DLee on being named an HWFL! Even the Papal Conclave comes with a devil's advocate.
Next step: we need a DNHQer who is good at Wikipedia editing to go in to all of these players' Wikipedia pages and start adding HWFL under career accomplishments and awards.
Eric Apricot (5 ♡):
Nothing embarrassing about having a well-stated opinion…
Arash (8 ♡):
Y'all wish me luck, my squad is playing in the finals for the Venice League! Kind of worried since their girl is absolutely saucy .
Captain Jack (8 ♡):
I always loved David West's energy. He comes off as a take no shit old school dude but it's not just brainless macho "I'm going to punch you in your face because I played in the old NBA" bullcrap either. I would love to see him come back one day as a player's coach.
The Warriors must have been wowed in workouts
Eric Apricot (21 ♡):
I'm not going to tell other people how to fan, but I intend to enjoy the crap out of this championship for months and months and not worry much about the future. (I'll keep an eye on the future, but will try not to WORRY about it.)
It wasn't long ago that we made a lineup Heroes For Life for getting hot for a month and winning a first round series before getting gentlemen swept. A championship was beyond hope. Now to have a fourth championship that validates the other 3 and shuts up all the worst critics?
Ahh... *months long chef's kiss*
Anyway, in my opinion (and by what Lacob has said) all roster decisions will depend on how the team looks and achieves this year, so there's no point in predicting until the end of next season.
Sleepy Freud (9 ♡):
LeTourneau’s just selling clicks in the dead season for hoops news, just as the Slater-MT2 piece was. I understand why they’re doing it, but there’s no actual news here.
Every season will feel like a “longgggg season” if we spend every minute focusing morbidly on the inevitable heat death of the universe instead of savoring the moment. The Warriors have some guys who are under contract for 3-4 more years (Steph, Loon, Moody, Kuminga, Baldwin, Rollins), some guys for two (Klay, Wiseman), a guy with one plus an option (Dray), a guy who’s an RFA next season (Poole), and a guy who’s a UFA (Wiggs).
Pretty much like every basketball team ever. Stop the presses.
Alas Phood Fight (8 ♡):
I like to differentiate between small wings and big wings.
Then create 4 positions between these traditional 5 spots:
Combo Guard (1-2) - Small Wing (2-3) - Big Wing (3-4) - Big (4-5)
While some players can guard or play more than 2 natural positions, most players divvy up their time on the court wit one or two.
Curry is a Combo Guard, but he plays PG primarily, so I list him as such.
Poole is a classic Combo Guard.
Because Curry and Poole play together, Klay is pushed to the 3, and will likely spend the rest of his career splitting time as a Small Wing (2-3)
Wiggs shifts up to play PF as well, so he is my Big Wing, (playing 3-4)
I say all this because when we say "Wings", there are really 2 types in my book. Those that guard down (onto small guards) and those who guard up (onto bigs).
Of course, there is that perfect WING. K Leonard, PG13, Tatum, Brown, Wiggs, 3 level scorers who can defend 2-4 equally well. But even then, they all tend to lean one way or the other (towards small or bigs).
Anywho, when I do depth charts, this is how I go about it. And Moody fits the bill as a Small Wing for sure.
ForeverFoyled (5 ♡):
Would be hard to be an NBA record, since before free agency in 1988 there were probably a lot of very high percent drafted teams. Some day when I have some more time, I do want to see what other champion teams had 5 drafted of their top 6 guys by minutes in the finals (as this Warriors team did). Looks like 88 Lakers had 5/6, but possibly not any teams since free agency.
Ok my "day with more time" came already. Looks like the '93 Bulls, when Scott Williams overtook Paxson in the top 6, were the only other team in the FA era who won with 5 of their top 6 being drafted. Their top 5 by minutes were all drafted, so maybe they get some bonus points (Cartwright was still a starter but ended up playing 6th most minutes).
Edit: actually Scott Williams was an undrafted signing by the Bulls, so I guess we could still claim by a technicality to be the only champs in the FA era to have 5 of top 6 guys drafted. The other crazy part is it was built on draft picks #7, #11, #28, #30, #35, not even high picks.
Also completely random, but when looking at the teams I think the 06 Heat surprised me most in terms of not even remembering who was on the team. Antoine Walker and Jason Williams were starters?? And after failing his ring chase on the Lakers, Gary Payton finally succeeded on that team? Looking back I don't think I watched any of the finals that year, I just remember hearing Heat won because Wade made a billion or so free throws.
Use this freedom for good, not evil
GlueAndBold (24 ♡):
My girlfriend curated this art show that is happening in Middletown for the next few months. It's the first contemporary indigenous-focused and indigenous-curated art show ever in Lake County, and this link allows you to walk through the whole thing. The only things it doesn't show are the full runs of what are showing on the two TV screens. Note: I did the wall lettering on the Missing & Murdered Indigenous Women facts wall.
Joe Viray (14 ♡):
Can we just fast forward to the part where actual basketball is being played? Lmao
belilaugh (13 ♡):
Believe [ ]
Arash (11 ♡):
Am I the only one here salivating over PBJ?
A 6'10 sharpshooter with a 7'3 wingspan that has excellent decisionmaking/body control/ball handling to go along with it?
I could easily see him being our Bjelica replacement this year as the stretch big who can pass while playing questionable defense.
Sab - 1,2,3...4,5,6,7. (11 ♡):
You can't ask for a better mentor for the younger players:
Trogdor (11 ♡):
Moving this over from the previous thread because, freedom:
Getting angry at the players for asking for more money is akin to blaming the rising costs of a Big Mac on the fact that the burger flipper makes $15 an hour.
Yes, the sheer numbers are VERY different, but the concept is the same; the economic constraints in these situations come from owners unwilling to give up on their astronomical profit margins in order to compensate laborers at a higher rate.
Yes, Lacob has been amazing thus far as an owner, but he's still constrained by the CBA and what ALL the owners have collectively decided. Yes, most franchise owners don't make a huge amount off of their individual restaurants, but they're constrained by the ultimate McDonald's corporate directions.
It's easy to place outrage on the face of the business (e.g., the players, and the fast food workers), but ultimately this is an ownership issue, not a player issue.
Alas Phood Fight (9 ♡):
It was sad to see GP2 & OPJ move on, but I believe there was a bigger game afoot. We don't just need to manage a roster, salary cap, etc. Outside of the building, Joe Lacob has to maintain relationships with the rest of the league, i.e., owners, Adam Silver and the Player's Union. No one can argue the organic way in which the Dubs were put together. In addition, no one can argue that the Dubs broke records with their total salary. But there is new TV money and a new CBA on the horizon, and this is the real game and the Warriors are smack in the middle of it.
There is a lot of media support for changing the rules around the Luxury Tax, specifically as it impacts players that a team drafted. Kellerman, Lowe, Cowherd and more will likely keep this topic alive, while others will keep up the checkbook banter just to make their shows spicy.
The Player's Union will likely get behind any rules that create higher income for its members. Luxury Tax penalties get distributed to other non-tax paying owners, while they are still considered "Salary". If an owner is willing to pay 'x' amount for total Salary + Luxury Tax Penalties, I am sure they, and the players, would rather that money go to the players instead. On the flip side, an attempt to make it easier for teams to keep their own players may come across as making it harder for free agents to move where they like or limit their freedom by penalizing teams more for acquiring them, should they go over the cap.
Small and medium size markets would benefit greatly from anything that could help them keep their star players. More players may choose the Lillard route were it easier on owners in those markets to pay them market value. Particularly when a player is in the final lap of their career. However, these teams don't like getting their asses kicked by the Warriors and non-tax paying owners receive fat checks from tax-paying teams. The success of the Warriors has probably generated billions of equity for league owners, but no one is sending Joe Lacob flowers for it. These are relationships. There is jealousy, envy, dislike, indignation, greed and a whole host of other emotions that seep into these collective bargaining agreements. Joe may be right, but he can't just steamroll the other owners.
From Adam Silver's perspective, he wants to produce a good product and there has to be rules that maintain some parity and sharing of Player Assets in the league.
Viewed from high above, we let GP2 and OPJ go because "we can't afford them." Joe Lacob talks about the Luxury Tax and Adam Silver fines him $500,000. I thought this was a lot until I realized what these actions are. This is Joe saying that we want to work within the rules, but the rules cannot penalize teams for keeping their own players. And it is Adam Silver replying, saying," yeah, I here you, but I gotta fine you half a mil 'cuz you just won the championship and I have 29 other owners in the waiting room in a bad mood. I can't look soft."
Whether he is being 'just Draymond' or 'holy shit 3rd dimension wind walker Dray', he seems to be joining the conversation as well and relaying the player's perspective. "I played, I won, I earned it.
But now the team I have played with for over a decade can't pay me because of taxes that are going to other owners? F That."
The upcoming CBA could extend a dynasty or cut it in half. The Warriors, and Lacob knows this, can't win the new CBA outright. There is going to have to be something sacrificed along the way, call it a sacrifice to the basketball Gods for all of our good fortune. I believe the league will do something that will end up helping the Warriors, but only in part. We are bargaining with a nation of 29 other tribes. Letting go of GP2 and OPJ was just the initial greeting. That's not what we are trading. That was just like the bottle of wine you bring over to a friend's house who is making dinner for you.
Will Poole or Wiggins be enough? I don't think Adam Silver wants to break up the core. It would be a victory for him to get through the next CBA and have the core retire together. Besides, if anyone went, it would probably be Green, and I think Adam is happy having him in GS because Curry keeps him from getting too far off the rails. But believe me, there will be a price to pay up front. We will benefit from it greatly in the long run, but no one in Blue & Gold is gonna like it.
It's chess not checkers. A sacrifice will be necessary. The Warriors must be wounded, bear blood in public, to seal the deal. They are negotiating terms as we speak, and Draymond, in his true Spirit Warrior form, may have offered himself up as the sacrifice. (let's face it, he's loving it)
Ahhhhhhhhh, Chapter 2
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Eric Apricot (35 ♡):
I’ve seen a couple of complaints in the comments about Looney not developing more of an offensive game. I note:
1. Looney has had a LOT of injuries which put him out for long chunks of time.
2. If it were so easy, every non-lazy NBA player would have those skills. People rave about his work ethic, so it’s not laziness.
3. Most NBA pros are actually good at scoring and dribbling. Compare, for instance, Brian Scalabrine, who was talked about scathingly as the worst player in the NBA in his time. And yet, he famously destroyed every non-NBA challenger in one on one play, even in retirement.
So Kevon is probably very good at a lot of basketball things compared to very very good basketball players, but on the NBA court, compared to other NBA players, defended by NBA players, and exhausted by doing the things the team actually needs, he looks bad shooting, creating in the post, etc.
It would take a LOT of development to improve from “very good” to the elite level of “good in the NBA” and it might not even be possible for most humans.
4. Because Looney has shown excellent improvement in other aspects, I don’t think it’s fair to complain that Looney hasn’t improved in every dimension. In fact, shooting and post ups are very unimportant to this team, and to get better than that, he has to take away time he could spend doing other more important things, for instance, becoming an elite rebounder this season with Dejan, which was massive in the playoffs.
5. The fact that he spent time developing as a rebounder and one-on-one defender of smalls means that he has not gotten better at scoring and other glamorous aspects that get players paid, so it’s a tribute to his team-first approach, not a sign that he’s letting down the team.
PhysiaPete (22 ♡):
(I've been sitting on this post for awhile. It's a rhetorical “ya’ll”, I’m not specifically calling anyone out lol. This is just something I typed up for fun in the afterglow of the championship.)
YA’LL NEED TO PUT SOME RESPECT ON KEVON LOONEY’S NAME.
This is 3-TIME NBA CHAMPION Kevon Looney.
5-TIME WESTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPION Kevon Looney.
Lockdown defender of former MVP James Harden.
Lockdown defender of future MVP Luka Doncic.
Ya’ll forget he was inserted into the starting lineup against the Rockets in 2018 and the Warriors came back to win the series after being down 3-2?
Ya’ll forget that after he locked down Harden in the WCF, his starting job was just given to unproven Damian Jones the next year and Mr. Looney never complained?
You know what happened when injuries limited Kevon to 20 games in 2019-20? Warriors -> Lottery.
You know what happened when the starting job was just given to James Wiseman (all of 3 college games and no summer league/preseason experience)? Looney never complained and just kept chugging away, eventually coming back to the starting lineup after Wiseman hurt his knee.
Yes, he’s had a history of injuries, but he came into last season healthy and had an openly-stated goal of playing every game during the season.
AND THE MAN SURPASSED THAT GOAL BY 22 GAMES.
He dominated the supposedly more physical Grizzlies and grabbed 22 rebounds in the close-out game. He dominated the 5-Out Mavericks, averaging a double-double while dishing out 3 asts/game in the WCF. After all this, he was put back on the bench halfway through the finals, and he still never complained.
So keep ignoring him, keep doubting him. He'll just be quietly collecting rings, rebounds, and opponents souls here.
mDuo13 (17 ♡):
This past season was decidedly Looney's best, both regular season and playoffs. Meanwhile, if you look at what's happened with those other guys who were seen as better value:
Montrezl Harrell spent the season coming off the bench for Washington and then Charlotte, playing decently in 6th-man minutes. But after he faced a lot of criticism of being exposed in the previous playoffs, his team didn't get there this year.
Josh Richardson got traded *off* the Celtics in February, landing on the rebuilding Spurs instead. Not exactly a vote of confidence?
Norman Powell was a solid contributor on the Blazers this last season before being dumped (along with RoCo) to the Clippers in Portland's flash rebuild.
Richaun Holmes' season was not notable for him being traded, but actually the opposite: the Kangz kept him while trading for Sabonis. Still playing starter minutes for them, for better or for worse.
Also, for kicks, I looked at the *earlier* picks in the 2015 draft again, and... wow, what a group! It's like a supercut of players I don't respect: KAT, D'Angelo Russell, Porzingas, Cauley-Stein, Oubre... We did very, very well by picking Looney.
Alas Phood Fight (16 ♡):
Looney is an organizational win. The Warrior's FO puts a lot of stock in people and they invest a lot in people. Neither M Jackson or S Kerr came to the table with a coaching resume. Both hired because of who they were and a belief in what they could accomplish. How many teams would have let go of Looney or Poole in the first 2 years? I would say most. But behind the scenes, the Dubs knew what kind of people they had in the building. They could see first hand the character and the hard work and so continued the process of investing time and money into their players. Obviously, there had to be skill. But the bet the organization makes is this: we believe that, because of who these people are, that they will ultimately be able to tap into those skills and translate them into real minutes on the floor.
It is also an organizational win because maintaining their core, above and beyond what all other teams tend to do in the NBA, the Warriors created a basketball environment that had enough stability for a player like Looney to evolve and find a niche within the system. Looney skills would not travel particularly well, nor would he be as good if the team continued to change players and styles around him. Like the animals that evolved on Madagascar, Looney carved out a highly specialized set of skills which allowed him to flourish.
This explains why Looney isn't highly sought after in the league. There is no doubt that GMs see the talent. But he is seen as a rare bird, one accustomed to a particular environment, that might not fare as well should the environment change so drastically around him.
Looney has done a masterful job of carving out his own path. And he is the best example of why players/teams should try to stick together longer. If your basketball environment is stable in style and with a core of players long enough, a Looney Bird has time to evolve. And the world, and every team, could use a few more Looney Birds.
DFiB (15 ♡):
Looneys ability to deliver great and impactful performance while not garnering a bigger contract is absolutely key to extending the dynasty. If he were more highly valued, we’d lose him and it would really hurt.
crusty quips (12 ♡):
I don't have much platitudes for Loon that Apricot and other posters in this thread haven't already expressed (shoutout to PhysiaPete and Phood Fight), so I will just say that if there are still folks who don't believe that Looney is a foundational piece of this championship team and an absolutely crucial component to their success, you can come fight me in Temecula. Looney is the kind of dude who saves his best play for the most important moments and always elevates his game when called upon. It's why his teammates and his coaches love him so much. He's a consummate professional and I love watching him play. Couldn't be anything less than an A pick.
Run_TMC (9 ♡):
If I may add, it's not even true that he didn't improve in areas people want him to. It was observed somewhere on this board during the playoffs how he now has a pump fake and seems to have improved at finishing under the hoop this season.
Goldarn Staid Worrier (9 ♡):
Aside from Looney’s game which is celebrated so well here, I just love his attitude. Is there a more team first player? He’s up there with Steph. Loon always does what is needed, or steps aside when asked, with a smile on his face. Not just a professional but a good warm soul. I’m really happy he found a way - and did the work - for his game to fit into the puzzle that is the Dubs system.
Alex (8 ♡):
The Athletic is trying to put out NBA content in July. Draymond hasn't made a statement, hasn't given an interview or put out a request for the max. The Athletic is just trying to speculate as to what may happen, cap/luxury tax-wise, with the roster of most interesting team in sports.... none of this should start blowback on any of the Warriors players, as none of them were quoted, much less even contacted for the story.
TheseGuysAreF’ingGIANTS! (8 ♡):
Love the takeaway and the re-grade!
The man’s an F’ing giant!
bamb00banga (7 ♡):
Amen to this, I am surprised that Looney's improved finishing doesn't get mentioned more. I remember in years past not having any confidence in Looney hitting a contested layup under the basket, he's come a long way
crusty quips (7 ♡):
The Loon Lagoon is a low-key and welcoming kind of place, no matter when you pulled your boat into port.
hammystyle (7 ♡):
Eh, he's pretty great. It's all somewhat relative to the 30th pick here, but he just played a huge role in that title run, and what he does is not easily replaceable.
His per 36 in the playoffs matches up with Bam, Gobert, Horford, JJJ, or RW3. Scores less, but rebounds more and assists more. Was incredibly efficient and matchup proof. Just an incredible run by him.
May all your favorite bands stay together
TwoRingTest (18 ♡):
David West was about the most perfect backup big you could have.
Couldn't shoot a 3, but knew it and stayed in his range. Rugged defense, decent rebounder, made no waves, but kept the other guys in line.
One of my favorite players. I liked him since his NO days.
Sleepy Freud (14 ♡):
Omg, fuck that misogynistic asshole so hard. And then force him to give birth to the unwanted child.
The treatment of women in any nation correlates *perfectly* to how civilized, decent, and compassionate they are as a society. The fact that we’ve now decided our sisters, mothers, and daughters — more than 50% of us — are second-class citizens tells you everything you need to know about the current state of our civilization.
God is coming, and man is She pissed.
Edit: okay, my stance on Harbaugh *personally* has softened after reading his support of George Floyd and Colin Kaepernick. People are complex; and I imagine Harbaugh’s support of forced-childbirth comes out of something more complex than just pure misogyny. I’m just filled with a lot of free-flowing rage right now that a minority of old, crazed, women-hating nutbags now control the reproductive freedom of our sisters, mothers, and daughters. It’s unfathomable to me.
If Harbaugh wants to use his considerable wealth to support adoption agencies or other resources for unwanted or underprivileged children, great. Just don’t try to dictate to women who may or may not share his views what they can and cannot do with their bodies. This is America … or was, anyway. :-(
Trogdor (9 ♡):
So I believe there are many many pro-lifers to be upset at in the current circumstances; I'm not actually sure if Harbaugh is one of them. As a Catholic, Harbaugh has spoken passionately against abortion, but from what I've seen always done so in the context of "make the choice to keep the baby" rather than "abortion should be illegal."
He's made reference to how it's an extremely complicated legal issue with conflicting moral, individual, social, and societal values at play. More than that, he's not saying "you messed up, to bad, so sad. Now go ahead and raise that baby." He's said, "I will raise any unwanted child you might have." Another quote from him:
“This process has been passionate and messy, but I have faith in the American people to ultimately develop the right policies and laws for all lives involved. I recognize one’s personal thinking regarding morality of a particular action may differ from their thinking on whether government should make that action illegal. There are many things one may hold to be immoral, but the government appropriately allows because of some greater good or personal or constitutional right.”
If someone is pro-life for deeply held religious reasons, what more could we possibly want from them than to say what he's said?
Harbaugh has been pretty consistent on social issues in the past in supporting Kaepernick, and supporting Black Lives Matter and the George Floyd protests, including attending anti-police brutality marches.
I personally am very much pro-choice, and I feel that Roe v. Wade should not have been overturned, and I have MANY choice things to say about Justice Thomas and co.
However, I understand that many, many people hold deep religious convictions on this issue, and they have every right to make their stance heard. I'm all for respectful, constructive dialogue involving differing, honest stances, so long as there can be genuine nuanced conversations and meeting of the minds.
Most statements by pro-life people drive me nuts because they miss this nuance and just straight up say "abortion is murder, make it all illegal!!!" That doesn't seem to be the case here with Harbaugh.
I'm all for rage against the people who rage should be directed at, but Harbaugh (who is far from perfect, to be sure) actually seems to be someone you can have a reasonable conversation with on this topic.
Asher B. (12 ♡):
My spouse who has no interest in sports has from time to time gently ribbed me to the effect that it doesn't really make much sense to watch the same team do the same thing over and over and get excited about it. One might say it this way "How many times do you need to see Steph make a three before you get bored?"
This goes to the heart of a topic that's almost forbidden to raise in sports circles, so let's do it: In a certain way, being a fan makes no "sense." Fans of the Rick Barry era or the Baron Davis era being fans of the Steph era are rooting for entirely different groups of people. (I believe Jerry Seinfeld had a bit about the way teams and players change so much over the years that in the end only the uniform remains, and what we are doing is "rooting for laundry.")
So why are you a fan? I think some of this is tribal. I feel affinity for the Dubs and hate their opponents, at least when they are pitted against them. But this is an abstract affiliation -- I'm not actually part of a tribe. I am not Klay's friend. We don't hang out. I just feel as though I'm a part of it. It also makes no "sense" to yell at my screen a thousand miles away or clap as though the players can hear me -- or anyone else, because I also do this when no on else is around.
But to say that it doesn't make "sense" to root for a team, or enjoy their success, or the way Steph shoots a three, implies that human emotions are sensible things. Why do we enjoy a walk in a meadow, or a sonata?
I guess there are two issues here and am curious what people think. 1. Why are you a fan in the first place -- what do you truly get out of it? and 2. Even if you were a fan in the first place, why are you not bored when events happen over and over, like a Steph three? And maybe one more. 3. How invested are you, really really? If they lost every game and played unentertaining ball, or if you were never permitted to watch again, what would that be like for you?
g8tgod (11 ♡):
In the short run, there's no question Williams is the more valuable player. But I'm worried about that knee and how the Celtics kept running him out there. They said that it would not damage the knee further, and it makes sense that they'd want to protect the asset. But I keep thinking about Isaiah Thomas and... no, I would not trade Wiseman for Williams. I recognize I'd be betting on potential that might never be realized, but I don't think RW is going to have a long career. Hope I'm wrong.
Alas Phood Fight (11 ♡):
To me, it was the book that had the perfect ending. Young star has ankles made of glass. New owner nearly gets booed off the court during Mullin's jersey retirement ceremony but it produces one of the great Rick Barry quotes, "C.mon people!" Quiet son of former #1 NBA draft pick can't hit a layup. Team tanks for #7 pick and then strikes gold with their 3rd pick in the draft. Then the meteoric rise, a 73 win season, a heartbreaking Finals loss, an unbelievable free agent comes on board, a juggernaut team, more chips, then bodies start falling. KD walks. All of our heroes are injured, worse record in the league, another devastating loss as Klay goes down again. Finish the season with a glimmer of hope. New players in the drama have been introduced, teasers for the second book. And now the stage is set.
This has been an incredible roller coaster ride and like a good murder mystery, we all want to know who did it. But in our case, we and the world wanted to know if Curry & Co. could do it without KD. This title was the resounding ending to an incredible story, ending as it did in the Emerald City. This title answered all the questions and we fade to black on Market Street covered in confetti.
This coming season isn't a continuation of this story. It is the 1st Chapter of the Second Book of these Warriors. And this coming story is all about the elder statesmen and the budding youth finding a way to work it out. That's what this Chip did for me. It made everything fresh and new again because we are embarking on a completely new journey. The epic battles with LeBron James are over. Although we may see the return of an old villain in Khawhi in the future, we are likely to come up against a whole new set of villains. Memphis much?
This Chip was closure. It was an end. And now we all hold a new book in our hands, with that new Barnes & Nobles book smell, and we don't know how it will end, but we should all be damn excited about reading it.
Chapter 1. Scene to: Las Vegas, Summer League. "On a blistering day in Vegas, Gui Santos made his way towards the team bus with a Frappuccino in hand. ....."
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