You think Steph and Dray would want approve of trading Klay away? I don’t. I think those three have unfinished business and want to go down as the greatest trio in NBA history.
Jul 16, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
Awful lot of "woe is us" in that video about a team that finished as the 8th seed (in a normal year) and came within 2 games of making the playoffs anyway without their 2nd best player. I agree that the Warriors should go after the highest ceiling players available with t the 7th and 14th pick, it's not clear to me players like Wagner and Kispert, if they are indeed available at 14, won't also have the highest ceiling of the players left to pick. And even if they aren't ready for the playoffs as rookies, those guys, as well as a guy like Moody at 7, can have value soaking up minutes in non-competitive games so the stars can get some rest. Finally, any discussion about trading the picks for a player that really does move the needle needs to take into account the Warriors cap situation especially since whoever they get has to add value above and beyond what they got from Wiggins.
Jul 17, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
EvanZ is always a great, insightful read/listen who's done 100x more research on these guys than I have, but it's worth noting that "woe is us" is sort of his default setting. Or to put it a different way: "the Warriors FO are idiots." He's been berating the Warriors on Twitter in recent weeks for making dumb picks like Mitchell and Kispert *before they've even made them.* And of course he hit peak "woe is us" in summer of 2014, when he skewered the team for failing to trade Klay for Love and using their MLE on Livingston, loudly advocated that they blow it up, and mocked anyone who was gullible enough to believe the 2014-15 team could do anything interesting.
That said ... I think he's generally smarter and more interesting than most of the draft analysts out there, and always take a keen interest in what he has to say. I just turn down the negativity a few notches when I read or listen to him. (Haven't listened to this one yet, but I guess I should...)
That was everyone he wanted the warriors to pick up… he was very tiring for me… one of the reasons I dropped off the board for a while… Main reasons being life stuff of course
He looked like he didn’t want to acknowledge that Wiseman showed some pretty amazing flashes (as you pointed out) or that perhaps Wiseman’s illness and injuries affected his results (as Daniel pointed out) and that he was looking much better before he got hurt (as you both pointed out) and maybe it’s too early to know what he is. I guess it didn’t fit his narrative of “I was right about Lamelo and the Warriors were wrong about Wiseman.”
Between that having to listen to him say “like” over and over, it was not my favorite conversation (although I agree with him about Mitchell and Moody.
And just so we’re clear on LaMelo: he put up .539 true shooting last season; and the Hornets were 3.4 points per 100 better with him on the bench than on the floor.
I think he’s gonna be great, but it’s not like it’s guaranteed he’s gonna be any greater than JDub. The book is barely open on these guys, let alone closed.
And if we’re talking about LaMelo on the Warriors: it seems like a good fit, but there’s also the possibility that he could have slowed the development of Poole and obviated JTA.
I’m sure he is a cool guy personally… lots of passion about basketball and knowledge to build his website and contribution… but, yeah, hard on the Internet where we’re all just here for funsies
I dont get the kuminga is just an athlete take here, have you really seen him play? To say he has no basketball skills is insane, he's shown flashes of being a solid passer and handler st that size, a mid range game, shoots the 3 with confidence and could be a game changing defender with his size and athleticism. Bring him in here with our coaching and culture and I dont see why he doesn't flourish
Look at guys like Jacob Evan's, confidence is a major factor in the NBA, go watch mulder's interviews from last season, dude was nervous af in front of a camera, he'd bring the same nervousness in cruch time
Have to agree that it would be hard for me to pass up if he’s still available (esp it Barnes and Bouknight already taken). Even from just an asset perspective. I think I would take a deep breath and still take him - believe in our coaches, emphasize being a defender, simplify his role (unlike the approach we took with Wiseman).
I still believe the plan with Wiseman was to throw him in the fire for the first quarter of a season to get a feel for expectations, and then pull him back to work on stuff until he was ready to contribute (including a stint in the G-League with Poole & Mannion). I've yet to be convinced otherwise.
If they end up with Kuminga and without a starting quality wing (till Klay comes back), I don't see a good reason not to follow a similar approach... hopefully with the benefit of training camp and more in season practice, lol.
I don’t blame them for trying that approach given Wiseman’s immense talent. But I hope they’ve learned their lesson and I think they have based on Kerr’s recent comments - paraphrasing - put Wiseman in position to succeed on game days and develop in practice.
I wouldn’t even mind if they put JW (frame it as injury assignment) and Kuminga in the G league for first two months but I know the bad optics would be too much for the front office to stomach. In this scenario, I feel we have a decent chance at Batum who we can insert in the starting lineup.
That “injury assignment” is going to be called “summer league and training camp”. If they can pick up a starting quality wing like batum, they should actually do it regardless of who they draft
Exactly I look at it as us getting oubre with a fresh palette. Imagine if we were able to train oubre up into our system for 4 years without any prior nba conditioning
Damian Lillard says after @usabasketball practice that reports he has plans to soon request a trade are "not true."
There has been "no firm decision on what my future will be," Lillard added.
Calling for more urgency from Blazers officials in assembling a contending team, Lillard says there are "a lot of positives" in Portland but "it's not enough."
So a denial of a trade request, but clear pressure to make a big move. When a guy who just signed a 3+1 yr extension says “no firm decision”, that’s as close to a trade request as you can get without entering Harden Fat Suit / Anthony Davis Sit Down Strike territory.
> League sources say the Magic are high on Florida State forward Scottie Barnes with the fifth pick, while the Thunder prefer Barnes or UConn guard James Bouknight with the sixth selection.
> Jonathan Kuminga, ranked fifth on most big boards after playing one season in the G League alongside Green, has been scarcely mentioned in league circles as a favorite to be selected by Orlando or Oklahoma City. Could he slip seventh to the Warriors?
Kuminga makes no sense for the Warriors unless you think you can trade him to fill a position of need. However the rookie scale contract for a #7 pick would only be about $5m/year, and without sorting through all the players, it's hard to see what $5m/year player moves the needle much. The reason he has slipped on everybody's board is that he just doesn't seem to be very good at basketball even taking age and competition level into account.
Also, I was wondering why the Warriors were being so open with their Moody interest yesterday, the stuff that got reported about him breaking down film with them wasn't very secretive. I initially thought it might have been a smokescreen but perhaps they think Barnes and Bouknight are locked in at #5/#6 so they don't need to hide anything? Or they really want Barnes or Bouknight so they are trying to get the teams ahead of them to take a second look at Moody?
Moody+Kispert, Moody+Wagner, Moody+Sengun all seem to make more sense to me than Moody+Kuminga, but if all those guys are taken before 14, and they might well be, than it might be Kuminga by default. Honestly though, even in his highlight film Kuminga doesn't look all that special. He is a fantastic leaper and he has size, but there is more to basketball than that.
I’m old enough to remember when guys like Slater and Strauss were rending their garments about the Wolves’ late-season winning streak cos it diminished our chances of landing Kuminga. ;-P
Beli, weren’t you also one of the people who freaked out when the Wolves started winning games late in the season? Losing out on nominal “fifth stud” Kuminga was the only real downside of that development (vs. the upside of significantly increasing the chances of the pick conveying). What changed?
Strongly disagree with your assessment about the pros/cons being "losing out on Kuminga". Not interested in discussing it, with all due respect. Using terms like "freaking out" and this not being the first time you've tried to "gotcha" me this season give me the impression that the conversation wouldn't be very productive.
Really? Ah well. I think I’m way more interested in ideas/facts than in “gotcha,” but YMMV.
If you prefer, you can take yourself out of it and imagine I’m just talking about Strauss and Slater (which I basically am). I don’t think it was inaccurate to say they were freaking out when Minny started winning games (and particularly when they beat us). If they weren’t worried about losing Kuminga, what were they worried about? The drop from 11.9% to 9.6% in the chances of #4? The massively better draft landscape at #6-8 than at #7-9? Or did they just not know back then that Kuminga was as flawed a prospect as he appears to be now?
Fair enough, I've been sensing some hostility this past season but perhaps I've misinterpreted a few comments, my bad. I certainly don't want any issues with the OG.
Yeah, I couldn't tell you why those guys wanted Kuminga so much, I've been pro-Moody/Barnes/Wagner>Kuminga for awhile. But I could give some reasons for preferring the higher risk/reward route:
1) Seems like losing out on #5 could mean losing out on Barnes, not Kuminga. Also wouldn't be surprised if Moody ends up going #5, at some point Orlando needs to draft someone who can shoot lol. Maybe they like Bouknight though.
2) At #5, all you need is for one of the top 4 teams to love a guy who isn't in the consensus top 4 for Suggs to fall to you. Harder at #7.
3) #5+#14 is a much more realistic offer for the #4 pick than #7+#14, or at least a much more realistic starting point. Also a better trade asset in general.
4) The better the Wolves did, the worse the pick could have potentially ended up. It wasn't just about the probability of #5, it was also about the probability of #8, #9, and #10.
5) In the scenario where the pick didn't convey, I'm not convinced the Wolves won't be a lottery team again. With a chance to be really horrible if KAT gets injured again, and big men are certainly not immune from injuries. Also the trade market is a bit dry right now, perhaps having a 2022 lottery pick would give them more optionality next summer when Wiggins becomes an expiring contract. But of course I preferred for the pick to convey.
And of course the most important reason:
6) #5 is too high for the Warriors to consider Mitchell lol.
Ha, yeah, looking back at that lotto viewing guide thread, I realize I’ve been banging the “are we really that sad about missing out on Kuminga?” drum for a while. Sorry for the repetitiveness…
Also, what makes us think Dame is going to force his way out (I still want to see the solid source on this), just to end up in GSW? If you were Dame, wouldn’t you rather go somewhere like PHI or BOS or even (ugh) LAL, where the best player isn’t at the same position as you?
Some guy (rapper?) named Barry Bondz listed GS as one of Dame’s four acceptable destinations (with LAL, NYK, MIA). Who knows if Bondz has actual access to Dame’s thinking or is just pulling stuff out of McCovey Cove…
I see how we’re a contender without dame (if some things break our way). I don’t see how we’re a contender after we give up our best wing defender to get him. It just doesn’t make sense to me positionally and I have to wonder if he’d feel the same way.
We would need to convince Portland to take Klay. That is not impossible, although extremely difficult. They could sell themselves on the marketing value (Klay is popular well outside of Dubnation) and having either a tank general whose contract would run out when Wiseman and 7 + 14 are up for extension (trading Lillard pretty much would start a rebuilding process)) or a surprise leader to take the franchise in a new direction whilst staying competitive.
Curry/Lillard/Wiggins/Green/X is a championship-winning starting 5, I'd confidently bet on that.
There's maybe like 10ish players in all of NBA history who I'd be willing to trade Klay for. Eight of them are retired and/or dead, and one of the other two is Steph.
Agree, Superbuckets89. Klay was always capable of super-superstar performances. 2 years of watching, and his head will be "all superstar, all the time" mode. He just needs a trainer who's not going to get him injured.
As for the rest, use the draft picks to select the next generation - they'll contribute. Keep Wiggins. Keep Wiseman - he's going to be awesome in two years, if only merely real good this coming season.
I don’t have polite words to describe how emphatically I oppose anything that involves trading klay, not only on a sentimental level but on a pragmatic. He is a transcendent talent and is a (not the, but a) driving force behind multiple championships. No, no, no. We keep klay.
I totally agree with keeping Klay as well. Another interesting way to pose the question: if we already had Dame, and (injured/recovering) Klay was on the Blazers, would one trade Dame to get Klay back?
He *was* a transcendent talent and *was* a driving force behind multiple championships. Before his injuries, keeping Klay over someone like Lillard would have been the only valid choice. Now, the only reason to keep him over involving him in trades for a player of Lillard's level would be based solely on sentiment. As I have said before, it would be very hard to sell the other team to take him anyway, so this is all really just hypothetical, but if the choice existed to acquire a max guard/wing without giving up our second-best defender (who, by the way, is only 26, i.e. just entering his prime) it would be much better for the team's hope of getting back to the top of the mountain.
Trading Klay does not help you get back up on the mountain as he is still the best compliment to Curry in the league. To watch KD come back this year and be as good as he has ever been should dissuade people from assuming Klay's days of being a transcendent talent is over. 100% disagree with this take.
The KD comparison is a classic whenever the topic of Klay returning to form comes up and it is just not inspiring all that much optimism in me for a number of reasons.
1) Durant didn't also tear his ACL before his achilles injury
2) Durant is significantly more gifted than Klay and the margins for Durant are just significantly higher; even if he actually wasn't at a 100% after his injury, he'd still be better than Klay at his absolute best and better than all but 0.1% of the league
3) Durant played less than half of the games this season; whether he will ever play anything approaching a full season again is TBD and unlike the Nets, the Warriors are in a conference where they cannot afford to have of their key players miss half the games
Like, I get it, I myself wish I had genuine reasons to believe Klay will be the old Klay, but I do not see it.
I think we’d be a contender after the trade, but it would be a gamble because we’d be giving up a known positive for an unknown presumed positive that could have complications
I want to believe that, but: no Wiggins, Klay is rehabbing, and we have no rookie wings with minimal cap space to sign a FA wing. Who defends Lebron when Dray is on AD? Who defends PG? Who defends any speedy guards?
Dame has been the top guy for a while, and he seems like a solid individual. I think he's more interested in a winning situation, rather than another place to showcase his skills. GS could provide that, but I don't think they can afford the assets to get him.
Maybe they don’t, who knows. The point is that POR will be offered All-Stars in packages so they won’t have to completely rebuild, and GSW prob can’t match.
I agree with Sword. If the Blazers try to thread the needle, we're getting beat. Jaylen Brown is a very intriguing piece if I'm them. If they bottom out, I just can't see the Blazers trading him to OKC or HOU who could beat our offer. The only reason POR trades him is that this is the player empowerment era. You don't trade Dame to a team who can't win a title. And NOP or TOR are both not winning a title by adding Dame. Not to mention OKC or HOU.
I think it's fairly straightforwards - it just depends on what they want. If they are bottoming out, we're the best positioned team. If they want to remain competitive, they'll have better offers.
Just doesn't make sense for OKC. What are they gonna do with a tanking roster around Dame who is already 30? They're incredibly well-positioned to be title contenders in the future for the next 5-10 years. Why jeopardize that for someone who is only gonna make you a play-in team?
The age fit is not perfect, but OKC has the resources to pull a good roster around Dame and have someone to build around. OKC is not getting star free agents so trade is the only way they can get a franchise player.
If I were an OKC fan, I’d much rather have a good team now with a puncher’s chance at making playoff noise than have a chance at a great team in 5-10 years.
And I don’t know the financial situation in OKC… it might be that they can’t suck for too long in hardcore football fan land…
Not to mention that OKC has a *ton* of picks. They have 6 picks total this year and can't/don't want to use all of them. It makes sense to package them for something, and they'll still have plenty left to draft with. Dame >> Westbook, so overall they're still coming out ahead.
Similar situation with Hou, but they have slightly fewer picks.
OKC's best chance of getting a franchise player is through the draft.
That's where we fundamentally disagree. I'd much rather be the 2021 OKC than the 2021 Washington Wizards. As a fan, I want a path to reasonable contention rather than middle-of-the-road playoff teams who lose in 4/5 games to actual contenders. Of course, OKC owners might agree with you though (although I do doubt that they'd sign off on The Process 2.0 only to stop after 1/2 years, especially when they are so stacked with assets).
Like pretty much everyone else, I think Philly is the most natural trade partner. Everyone else is just reaching (which I think can be a fun mental excercise)
The Pistons also have the #1 pick (aka Cade), three first rounders from last season, and Jerami Grant as a good player who could make the contracts work.
Same as with OKC - when you're very well positioned to be a force in the future, I don't understand why you give that up to become a fringe playoff team.
McCollum and Poole on the same team wouldn't make much sense. Would probably need to swap in Poole and take out one of the picks if that were a real trade discussion.
Awful, imo. CJ takes less to get cos he’s nowhere near the same caliber of player. You don’t blow everything up for average-ish NBA starters like McCollum and Nurkic.
Forget the picks — I wouldn’t trade Wiggins straight up for McCollum.
I'll just say it. CJ is the one holding POR back from being a true contender. He's not good enough to be #2 next to Dame or any superstar on a championship team. He's a #3 at best.
Honestly, this makes way less sense than Dame for me. We're giving away a lot of assets to remain non-contenders. That just isn't appealing to me. When you're giving up the farm, be certain that you're getting the guy.
And CJ's on a really bad contract - 3 years/100 million is bad value for CJ anyway.
well, I think that's a salient point in Evan's proposal. CJ (presumable) would be obtainable for far less than Dame, but he'd offer some of the same scoring boosts and synergy
If CJ takes Wiggs, Wise, #7, and #14, I don't even want to know what it's takes to get Dame, and I don't want either at their respective prices.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I don't think we're getting anything remotely close to fair value for Wiggs, Wise, or Poole, and thus should not trade any of them. For those that prefer the trade route, the hope has to be that Wiggs, Wise, and Poole all continue to improve their "stock" through the trade deadline, and some other superstar becomes available at that time. But if those guys are improving their stock, the Warriors are probably in contention and not wanting to break up a good thing, lol.
As John Madden once said: "if you got a guy half on fire, and half frozen in a block of ice, on average he's doing ok"
Lol fine, I'm retracting my vote. Cancel culture wins again ; )
But also, along the same lines, Wiggins was pretty solid for us, the opportunity cost of any trade presuming Wiggs involvement is definitely something to consider
I'm intrigued by everyone saying other teams can offer better packages. Counting Wiseman, the Warriors effectively have three lottery picks able to start right away, that's a pretty good start at a "rebuild", plus Poole. If a team is actually looking to rebuild that has to be a pretty attractive option in comparison to packages with future assets 2-3 years down the line and/or more established players. Please help educate me on what I'm missing here.
Knicks can offer Quickley/Barrett + Picks. Lakers can offer THT/KCP (and no picks). Heat can offer Tyler Herro + Picks. If he really chose between those 4, there's no doubt the Dubs can offer the most.
The only exception is that if Dame really wants the Lakers and they make that happen cos Dame is a Blazers legend. I don't wanna blame an organization for treating their players with respect.
Lakers say no... Dame has already said he wants to come to the Lakers, he needs us more than we need him. Take THT out, push the pick to 2065, and I'll accept, grudgingly.
My big takeaway from the EvanZ Vidcast is this compelling line of reasoning:
With Klay’s return, GSW will be a contender. So most rookies won’t move the needle. So either trade the picks for real help, or pick a high ceiling guy who could conceivably contribute in a simple role.
I think most of the conversations on this board are arguing about who the high ceiling guys are that can contribute in a simple role.
Trades are very hard due to the salaries of people involved.
So trading the picks for real help, or finding the high ceiling guy who can play a little right away are very hard objectives. I'm sure it's literally plan A and B in the front office.
Agreed. But for instance, I like Chris Duarte as a near-certain contributor with a low ceiling due to age. In this framework, he would not be a lottery pick.
I feel like we've seen the opposite before, but not with such a high pick. Jacob Evans comes to mind as a guy that was selected because he was perceived as being more "NBA-ready"
DH - ‘LaMelo has been in a basketball boot camp since he was 3’ LOL
😂😂😂
I wonder what Steph, Dray, Klay, and Kerr think about the prospect of adding Dame. That would totally dictate how I feel about it.
Nobody is flinching about adding Dame
You think Steph and Dray would want approve of trading Klay away? I don’t. I think those three have unfinished business and want to go down as the greatest trio in NBA history.
No, absolutely not for Klay. But I think those guys including Klay would be down to do anything else it takes to get Dame
I was thinking that when it was proposed that we trade Klay in the deal for Dame.
I Dray would say “Fuck that! and the other three would be strongly opposed.
I'm seriously all the way flipped to where I'm over valuing Wiggins now. If he goes, our wing point of attack defense is suddenly a super need
Awful lot of "woe is us" in that video about a team that finished as the 8th seed (in a normal year) and came within 2 games of making the playoffs anyway without their 2nd best player. I agree that the Warriors should go after the highest ceiling players available with t the 7th and 14th pick, it's not clear to me players like Wagner and Kispert, if they are indeed available at 14, won't also have the highest ceiling of the players left to pick. And even if they aren't ready for the playoffs as rookies, those guys, as well as a guy like Moody at 7, can have value soaking up minutes in non-competitive games so the stars can get some rest. Finally, any discussion about trading the picks for a player that really does move the needle needs to take into account the Warriors cap situation especially since whoever they get has to add value above and beyond what they got from Wiggins.
EvanZ is always a great, insightful read/listen who's done 100x more research on these guys than I have, but it's worth noting that "woe is us" is sort of his default setting. Or to put it a different way: "the Warriors FO are idiots." He's been berating the Warriors on Twitter in recent weeks for making dumb picks like Mitchell and Kispert *before they've even made them.* And of course he hit peak "woe is us" in summer of 2014, when he skewered the team for failing to trade Klay for Love and using their MLE on Livingston, loudly advocated that they blow it up, and mocked anyone who was gullible enough to believe the 2014-15 team could do anything interesting.
That said ... I think he's generally smarter and more interesting than most of the draft analysts out there, and always take a keen interest in what he has to say. I just turn down the negativity a few notches when I read or listen to him. (Haven't listened to this one yet, but I guess I should...)
Lol who was the guy that broke him? There was a guy (J Rob?) That he REALLY thought we should get and if we didn't it would be the end of it all??
Josh McRoberts aka “McBob,” right? Imagine how much less the 2014-15 team would have sucked with him in place of Shaun… :-)
I could have sworn it was Omer Asik
That was everyone he wanted the warriors to pick up… he was very tiring for me… one of the reasons I dropped off the board for a while… Main reasons being life stuff of course
Hahah damn Sleepy, you pulled his whole resume
“…I think he's generally smarter and more interesting than most of the draft analysts out there…”
He’d strongly agree with you.
I remember when he was cutting his teeth on GSoM and rubbing people the wrong way…
He's always been cool, but he gets very convinced. Which can be tough on an internet forum where people are poking into the unknown
He looked like he didn’t want to acknowledge that Wiseman showed some pretty amazing flashes (as you pointed out) or that perhaps Wiseman’s illness and injuries affected his results (as Daniel pointed out) and that he was looking much better before he got hurt (as you both pointed out) and maybe it’s too early to know what he is. I guess it didn’t fit his narrative of “I was right about Lamelo and the Warriors were wrong about Wiseman.”
Between that having to listen to him say “like” over and over, it was not my favorite conversation (although I agree with him about Mitchell and Moody.
And just so we’re clear on LaMelo: he put up .539 true shooting last season; and the Hornets were 3.4 points per 100 better with him on the bench than on the floor.
I think he’s gonna be great, but it’s not like it’s guaranteed he’s gonna be any greater than JDub. The book is barely open on these guys, let alone closed.
…
And if we’re talking about LaMelo on the Warriors: it seems like a good fit, but there’s also the possibility that he could have slowed the development of Poole and obviated JTA.
I’m sure he is a cool guy personally… lots of passion about basketball and knowledge to build his website and contribution… but, yeah, hard on the Internet where we’re all just here for funsies
*3rd best player
I dont get the kuminga is just an athlete take here, have you really seen him play? To say he has no basketball skills is insane, he's shown flashes of being a solid passer and handler st that size, a mid range game, shoots the 3 with confidence and could be a game changing defender with his size and athleticism. Bring him in here with our coaching and culture and I dont see why he doesn't flourish
I also shoot the ball with confidence, and I also don't make very many
Look at guys like Jacob Evan's, confidence is a major factor in the NBA, go watch mulder's interviews from last season, dude was nervous af in front of a camera, he'd bring the same nervousness in cruch time
Yeah, it’s true. The numbers don’t look good, but eye test he can dribble and shoot.
He’s suchhhh a head down chucked though. He’s got the Jaylen Brown upside, but he might also have 3/4 of Rudy Gay’s career upside.
Have to agree that it would be hard for me to pass up if he’s still available (esp it Barnes and Bouknight already taken). Even from just an asset perspective. I think I would take a deep breath and still take him - believe in our coaches, emphasize being a defender, simplify his role (unlike the approach we took with Wiseman).
I still believe the plan with Wiseman was to throw him in the fire for the first quarter of a season to get a feel for expectations, and then pull him back to work on stuff until he was ready to contribute (including a stint in the G-League with Poole & Mannion). I've yet to be convinced otherwise.
If they end up with Kuminga and without a starting quality wing (till Klay comes back), I don't see a good reason not to follow a similar approach... hopefully with the benefit of training camp and more in season practice, lol.
I might be confused but wasn't the g league only from February to March? Wiseman didn't get hurt until after that
He busted his wrist in Jan and was out through all of feb… was awful timing
I don’t blame them for trying that approach given Wiseman’s immense talent. But I hope they’ve learned their lesson and I think they have based on Kerr’s recent comments - paraphrasing - put Wiseman in position to succeed on game days and develop in practice.
I wouldn’t even mind if they put JW (frame it as injury assignment) and Kuminga in the G league for first two months but I know the bad optics would be too much for the front office to stomach. In this scenario, I feel we have a decent chance at Batum who we can insert in the starting lineup.
That “injury assignment” is going to be called “summer league and training camp”. If they can pick up a starting quality wing like batum, they should actually do it regardless of who they draft
Exactly I look at it as us getting oubre with a fresh palette. Imagine if we were able to train oubre up into our system for 4 years without any prior nba conditioning
No surprise (to me) here:
Damian Lillard says after @usabasketball practice that reports he has plans to soon request a trade are "not true."
There has been "no firm decision on what my future will be," Lillard added.
Calling for more urgency from Blazers officials in assembling a contending team, Lillard says there are "a lot of positives" in Portland but "it's not enough."
https://twitter.com/thesteinline/status/1416136635939319810?s=21
So a denial of a trade request, but clear pressure to make a big move. When a guy who just signed a 3+1 yr extension says “no firm decision”, that’s as close to a trade request as you can get without entering Harden Fat Suit / Anthony Davis Sit Down Strike territory.
Harden Fat Suit LOL! You can't tell me that wasn't. He lost all of that weight the next day.
ESPN+: Wiseman, 7, 14 + 2022 Pick for #1 (Cunningham), McGruder, and 2nd round pick
Who says no?
Pistons
Lol i say no as a courtesy to the Pistons
Draymond says no once he hears McGruder is involved lol
Lol, oh yeah that guy.
Seriously undervaluing the value of a #1 pick in a strong draft. You'd be lucky to get the #4 pick for that.
Klay and Draymond lol
Pistons would be dumb to do that, case has way more potential then wiseman and will probably be better year 1
I'm guessing the Pistons wouldn't be as interested in that as GSW would be.
I will be disappointed if we don’t get a crack at Bouknight. Him & Barnes are top of my list. Closely followed by our boy MMOODDYYY
https://www.theringer.com/2021/7/16/22579643/nba-draft-houston-rockets-cade-cunningham-jalen-green-evan-mobley
> League sources say the Magic are high on Florida State forward Scottie Barnes with the fifth pick, while the Thunder prefer Barnes or UConn guard James Bouknight with the sixth selection.
> Jonathan Kuminga, ranked fifth on most big boards after playing one season in the G League alongside Green, has been scarcely mentioned in league circles as a favorite to be selected by Orlando or Oklahoma City. Could he slip seventh to the Warriors?
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If Kuminga falls to 7, would people want the Warriors to take him?
Maybe one of the teams 8-13 would want to move up and get him.
I'm taking kuminga, you dont pass on that type of potential with our culture surrounding it
Was listening to the BS podcast and he was very negative on Kuminga and to the Warriors specifically.
(For whatever that's worth)
Kuminga makes no sense for the Warriors unless you think you can trade him to fill a position of need. However the rookie scale contract for a #7 pick would only be about $5m/year, and without sorting through all the players, it's hard to see what $5m/year player moves the needle much. The reason he has slipped on everybody's board is that he just doesn't seem to be very good at basketball even taking age and competition level into account.
Also, I was wondering why the Warriors were being so open with their Moody interest yesterday, the stuff that got reported about him breaking down film with them wasn't very secretive. I initially thought it might have been a smokescreen but perhaps they think Barnes and Bouknight are locked in at #5/#6 so they don't need to hide anything? Or they really want Barnes or Bouknight so they are trying to get the teams ahead of them to take a second look at Moody?
I see him possibly slipping into the 10-12th range
In a vacuum, no.
But I probably could justify it with the right 14th pick. Would still be kinda down on my list of ideal draft outcomes.
So I dunno, I wouldn't hate Kuminga and Wagner or something?
I mean...maybe Kuminga will be the 14th pick lol.
If Kuminga falls to 14, then yes, gimme that lol
Moody and Wagner at 14th sounds better plsthnx
Yeah, Moody and Wagner is still my ideal.
Though, I've said previously I wouldn't mind swinging for upside at 14 with like Ziaire, and in that scenario I'd definitely go Kuminga over Ziaire.
Moody+Kispert, Moody+Wagner, Moody+Sengun all seem to make more sense to me than Moody+Kuminga, but if all those guys are taken before 14, and they might well be, than it might be Kuminga by default. Honestly though, even in his highlight film Kuminga doesn't look all that special. He is a fantastic leaper and he has size, but there is more to basketball than that.
I’m old enough to remember when guys like Slater and Strauss were rending their garments about the Wolves’ late-season winning streak cos it diminished our chances of landing Kuminga. ;-P
From before:
"I have a much stronger feeling that Kuminga, aka Wing Wiseman, will fall to 7 and GSW will grab him and we will all need therapy"
https://dubnationhq.com/p/draft-2021-2-1/comments#comment-2383368
Yup. Said the same thing:
https://dubnationhq.com/p/the-dub-nation-viewing-guide-to-the/comments#comment-2242351
I stand by my take back then. I would not want him at 7.
Beli, weren’t you also one of the people who freaked out when the Wolves started winning games late in the season? Losing out on nominal “fifth stud” Kuminga was the only real downside of that development (vs. the upside of significantly increasing the chances of the pick conveying). What changed?
Strongly disagree with your assessment about the pros/cons being "losing out on Kuminga". Not interested in discussing it, with all due respect. Using terms like "freaking out" and this not being the first time you've tried to "gotcha" me this season give me the impression that the conversation wouldn't be very productive.
Really? Ah well. I think I’m way more interested in ideas/facts than in “gotcha,” but YMMV.
If you prefer, you can take yourself out of it and imagine I’m just talking about Strauss and Slater (which I basically am). I don’t think it was inaccurate to say they were freaking out when Minny started winning games (and particularly when they beat us). If they weren’t worried about losing Kuminga, what were they worried about? The drop from 11.9% to 9.6% in the chances of #4? The massively better draft landscape at #6-8 than at #7-9? Or did they just not know back then that Kuminga was as flawed a prospect as he appears to be now?
Fair enough, I've been sensing some hostility this past season but perhaps I've misinterpreted a few comments, my bad. I certainly don't want any issues with the OG.
Yeah, I couldn't tell you why those guys wanted Kuminga so much, I've been pro-Moody/Barnes/Wagner>Kuminga for awhile. But I could give some reasons for preferring the higher risk/reward route:
1) Seems like losing out on #5 could mean losing out on Barnes, not Kuminga. Also wouldn't be surprised if Moody ends up going #5, at some point Orlando needs to draft someone who can shoot lol. Maybe they like Bouknight though.
2) At #5, all you need is for one of the top 4 teams to love a guy who isn't in the consensus top 4 for Suggs to fall to you. Harder at #7.
3) #5+#14 is a much more realistic offer for the #4 pick than #7+#14, or at least a much more realistic starting point. Also a better trade asset in general.
4) The better the Wolves did, the worse the pick could have potentially ended up. It wasn't just about the probability of #5, it was also about the probability of #8, #9, and #10.
5) In the scenario where the pick didn't convey, I'm not convinced the Wolves won't be a lottery team again. With a chance to be really horrible if KAT gets injured again, and big men are certainly not immune from injuries. Also the trade market is a bit dry right now, perhaps having a 2022 lottery pick would give them more optionality next summer when Wiggins becomes an expiring contract. But of course I preferred for the pick to convey.
And of course the most important reason:
6) #5 is too high for the Warriors to consider Mitchell lol.
"Beli, weren’t you also one of the people who freaked out when"...
I mean, I don't see any "Strauss" or "Slater" in there... I say we bury the hatchets, though.
I think that's enough "I told you so" comments... it's not a good look for such a respected commenter ;-)
Ha, yeah, looking back at that lotto viewing guide thread, I realize I’ve been banging the “are we really that sad about missing out on Kuminga?” drum for a while. Sorry for the repetitiveness…
Also, what makes us think Dame is going to force his way out (I still want to see the solid source on this), just to end up in GSW? If you were Dame, wouldn’t you rather go somewhere like PHI or BOS or even (ugh) LAL, where the best player isn’t at the same position as you?
Some guy (rapper?) named Barry Bondz listed GS as one of Dame’s four acceptable destinations (with LAL, NYK, MIA). Who knows if Bondz has actual access to Dame’s thinking or is just pulling stuff out of McCovey Cove…
I see how we’re a contender without dame (if some things break our way). I don’t see how we’re a contender after we give up our best wing defender to get him. It just doesn’t make sense to me positionally and I have to wonder if he’d feel the same way.
We would need to convince Portland to take Klay. That is not impossible, although extremely difficult. They could sell themselves on the marketing value (Klay is popular well outside of Dubnation) and having either a tank general whose contract would run out when Wiseman and 7 + 14 are up for extension (trading Lillard pretty much would start a rebuilding process)) or a surprise leader to take the franchise in a new direction whilst staying competitive.
Curry/Lillard/Wiggins/Green/X is a championship-winning starting 5, I'd confidently bet on that.
There's maybe like 10ish players in all of NBA history who I'd be willing to trade Klay for. Eight of them are retired and/or dead, and one of the other two is Steph.
Agree, Superbuckets89. Klay was always capable of super-superstar performances. 2 years of watching, and his head will be "all superstar, all the time" mode. He just needs a trainer who's not going to get him injured.
As for the rest, use the draft picks to select the next generation - they'll contribute. Keep Wiggins. Keep Wiseman - he's going to be awesome in two years, if only merely real good this coming season.
Is it Jordan? Or Bird? Or Anthony Mason?
Giannis. The other who's not retired. Or..
I don’t have polite words to describe how emphatically I oppose anything that involves trading klay, not only on a sentimental level but on a pragmatic. He is a transcendent talent and is a (not the, but a) driving force behind multiple championships. No, no, no. We keep klay.
I totally agree with keeping Klay as well. Another interesting way to pose the question: if we already had Dame, and (injured/recovering) Klay was on the Blazers, would one trade Dame to get Klay back?
He *was* a transcendent talent and *was* a driving force behind multiple championships. Before his injuries, keeping Klay over someone like Lillard would have been the only valid choice. Now, the only reason to keep him over involving him in trades for a player of Lillard's level would be based solely on sentiment. As I have said before, it would be very hard to sell the other team to take him anyway, so this is all really just hypothetical, but if the choice existed to acquire a max guard/wing without giving up our second-best defender (who, by the way, is only 26, i.e. just entering his prime) it would be much better for the team's hope of getting back to the top of the mountain.
Trading Klay does not help you get back up on the mountain as he is still the best compliment to Curry in the league. To watch KD come back this year and be as good as he has ever been should dissuade people from assuming Klay's days of being a transcendent talent is over. 100% disagree with this take.
The KD comparison is a classic whenever the topic of Klay returning to form comes up and it is just not inspiring all that much optimism in me for a number of reasons.
1) Durant didn't also tear his ACL before his achilles injury
2) Durant is significantly more gifted than Klay and the margins for Durant are just significantly higher; even if he actually wasn't at a 100% after his injury, he'd still be better than Klay at his absolute best and better than all but 0.1% of the league
3) Durant played less than half of the games this season; whether he will ever play anything approaching a full season again is TBD and unlike the Nets, the Warriors are in a conference where they cannot afford to have of their key players miss half the games
Like, I get it, I myself wish I had genuine reasons to believe Klay will be the old Klay, but I do not see it.
Yeah. Klay is valuable in a million ways. Please no.
I think we’d be a contender after the trade, but it would be a gamble because we’d be giving up a known positive for an unknown presumed positive that could have complications
I want to believe that, but: no Wiggins, Klay is rehabbing, and we have no rookie wings with minimal cap space to sign a FA wing. Who defends Lebron when Dray is on AD? Who defends PG? Who defends any speedy guards?
Dame has been the top guy for a while, and he seems like a solid individual. I think he's more interested in a winning situation, rather than another place to showcase his skills. GS could provide that, but I don't think they can afford the assets to get him.
I just think he should look at PHI and say, if I'm there instead of Ben Simmons, that's a great fit and a Finals contender right there.
Sure, but why does Portland want Ben Simmons?
Maybe they don’t, who knows. The point is that POR will be offered All-Stars in packages so they won’t have to completely rebuild, and GSW prob can’t match.
Yep yep
Okay, but I would be surprised if GSW was a high priority destination for Dame in his mind.
Team USA is better off with Keldon Johnson than Bradley Beal, that's my scorching hot take.
Okay, Duby was joking to me earlier about making an emergency post about Lillard. It’s starting to look necessary.
And as I am so far the loudest voice of “Warriors package of Wiggins/Wise/Poole/picks will be outbid”, I should produce examples of better packages. I’m not sure I have time, but this article is a good starter: https://sports.yahoo.com/best-trade-packages-damian-lillard-023503827.html
Offers of picks plus (Jaylen Brown, Ben Simmons, Siakam, Brandon Ingram) just seem way more attractive to me.
I agree with Sword. If the Blazers try to thread the needle, we're getting beat. Jaylen Brown is a very intriguing piece if I'm them. If they bottom out, I just can't see the Blazers trading him to OKC or HOU who could beat our offer. The only reason POR trades him is that this is the player empowerment era. You don't trade Dame to a team who can't win a title. And NOP or TOR are both not winning a title by adding Dame. Not to mention OKC or HOU.
I think it's fairly straightforwards - it just depends on what they want. If they are bottoming out, we're the best positioned team. If they want to remain competitive, they'll have better offers.
I also think OKC could drop a crap ton of picks on them if they are bottoming out
Just doesn't make sense for OKC. What are they gonna do with a tanking roster around Dame who is already 30? They're incredibly well-positioned to be title contenders in the future for the next 5-10 years. Why jeopardize that for someone who is only gonna make you a play-in team?
The age fit is not perfect, but OKC has the resources to pull a good roster around Dame and have someone to build around. OKC is not getting star free agents so trade is the only way they can get a franchise player.
If I were an OKC fan, I’d much rather have a good team now with a puncher’s chance at making playoff noise than have a chance at a great team in 5-10 years.
And I don’t know the financial situation in OKC… it might be that they can’t suck for too long in hardcore football fan land…
Not to mention that OKC has a *ton* of picks. They have 6 picks total this year and can't/don't want to use all of them. It makes sense to package them for something, and they'll still have plenty left to draft with. Dame >> Westbook, so overall they're still coming out ahead.
Similar situation with Hou, but they have slightly fewer picks.
OKC's best chance of getting a franchise player is through the draft.
That's where we fundamentally disagree. I'd much rather be the 2021 OKC than the 2021 Washington Wizards. As a fan, I want a path to reasonable contention rather than middle-of-the-road playoff teams who lose in 4/5 games to actual contenders. Of course, OKC owners might agree with you though (although I do doubt that they'd sign off on The Process 2.0 only to stop after 1/2 years, especially when they are so stacked with assets).
Yeah, who knows where the ownership is at, but they seem pretty Process-y to me.
I’m quite anti-Process, though I acknowledge it makes game theoretic sense.
Dame and Shai can get you pretty far.
I don't know what the process is in OKC, but it's worth a thought or two
Is it really better than Dame + CJ + role-players (they have no role-players also right now)? I have my doubts.
And Dame's not gonna be happy there lol.
Like pretty much everyone else, I think Philly is the most natural trade partner. Everyone else is just reaching (which I think can be a fun mental excercise)
The Pistons also have the #1 pick (aka Cade), three first rounders from last season, and Jerami Grant as a good player who could make the contracts work.
Same as with OKC - when you're very well positioned to be a force in the future, I don't understand why you give that up to become a fringe playoff team.
Good point, doesn't make much sense for Detroit.
Evan Z, from left field!!
> @thecity2
Wiggins, 7, 14, Wiseman for CJ/Nurkic... Pay Oubre. Just a thought.
I kinda like this one more honestly.
CJ probably takes less to get, and Nurk (if he's healthy) does a lot to fix our center position.
Oubre is... complicated. I'm not sure that I see him as a fit here any more
McCollum and Poole on the same team wouldn't make much sense. Would probably need to swap in Poole and take out one of the picks if that were a real trade discussion.
This is also true of Poole and Bouknight but some Warrior fans don't seem to care, which I get if they think he is BPA.
Awful, imo. CJ takes less to get cos he’s nowhere near the same caliber of player. You don’t blow everything up for average-ish NBA starters like McCollum and Nurkic.
Forget the picks — I wouldn’t trade Wiggins straight up for McCollum.
I'll just say it. CJ is the one holding POR back from being a true contender. He's not good enough to be #2 next to Dame or any superstar on a championship team. He's a #3 at best.
He really should have been #1... off the bench.
conveniently he would be #4 on the warriors
And way overpaid…
Just like our current #4
Honestly, this makes way less sense than Dame for me. We're giving away a lot of assets to remain non-contenders. That just isn't appealing to me. When you're giving up the farm, be certain that you're getting the guy.
And CJ's on a really bad contract - 3 years/100 million is bad value for CJ anyway.
Ew.... I think I like Wiggs & Wise better than CJ/Nurk straight up...
Who has worse defense, CJ or Dame?
(I honestly don't know). But CJ is low key nice, he'd be almost as nasty as Dame as the third guard next to Steph and Klay
Yeah, I wouldn't mind CJ as a 3rd guard... but I'm not trading "all the assets" for a 3rd guard.
well, I think that's a salient point in Evan's proposal. CJ (presumable) would be obtainable for far less than Dame, but he'd offer some of the same scoring boosts and synergy
If CJ takes Wiggs, Wise, #7, and #14, I don't even want to know what it's takes to get Dame, and I don't want either at their respective prices.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I don't think we're getting anything remotely close to fair value for Wiggs, Wise, or Poole, and thus should not trade any of them. For those that prefer the trade route, the hope has to be that Wiggs, Wise, and Poole all continue to improve their "stock" through the trade deadline, and some other superstar becomes available at that time. But if those guys are improving their stock, the Warriors are probably in contention and not wanting to break up a good thing, lol.
That’s kinda like saying Jordan Poole offers some of the same scoring boosts as Steph.
ah yes, the beauty of language!
As John Madden once said: "if you got a guy half on fire, and half frozen in a block of ice, on average he's doing ok"
Lol fine, I'm retracting my vote. Cancel culture wins again ; )
But also, along the same lines, Wiggins was pretty solid for us, the opportunity cost of any trade presuming Wiggs involvement is definitely something to consider
I'm intrigued by everyone saying other teams can offer better packages. Counting Wiseman, the Warriors effectively have three lottery picks able to start right away, that's a pretty good start at a "rebuild", plus Poole. If a team is actually looking to rebuild that has to be a pretty attractive option in comparison to packages with future assets 2-3 years down the line and/or more established players. Please help educate me on what I'm missing here.
OFFICIALLY LESS THAN 2 WEEKS UNTIL THE DRAFT!
https://mobile.twitter.com/BarryBondz/status/1416048190986596352
> @BarryBondz
Damian Lillard has officially requested a trade from the Portland Trailblazers.
Knicks, Lakers, Heat, and Warriors are the four teams Lillard’s interested in.
WE ON THE LIST!!!
Knicks can offer Quickley/Barrett + Picks. Lakers can offer THT/KCP (and no picks). Heat can offer Tyler Herro + Picks. If he really chose between those 4, there's no doubt the Dubs can offer the most.
Unless the Heat offer Bam (which I doubt they will do), I think we have by far the best package out of all of those teams.
We as fans tend to overestimate our packages.
_pulls out a measuring tape_
I want to hear this from a real NBA source before I start thinking hard about this
Yeah, if the source was @RickeyHendersonz instead of @BarryBondz, I would trust it more.
@ZammyZoza
You would trust that he stole it from someone else, more like
No Philly?!?!
Could be intentional leak to encourage Philly to up their offers?
If POR accepts any trade for Dame that doesn't involve AD they should be banned from the NBA forever.
The only exception is that if Dame really wants the Lakers and they make that happen cos Dame is a Blazers legend. I don't wanna blame an organization for treating their players with respect.
No… the trade has to be somewhat reasonable… even AD trade included something, and the lakers have no assets now
It's the Lakers, so I will blame the living hell out of them.
Kuzma, THT, and a 2045 first rounder for Dame. Who says no?
— someone on Silver Screen and Roll, probably
Lakers say no... Dame has already said he wants to come to the Lakers, he needs us more than we need him. Take THT out, push the pick to 2065, and I'll accept, grudgingly.
- Someone else on SS&R
Is the 2065 pick protected?
"It is, so they might have to throw in Nurk to make it even."
My big takeaway from the EvanZ Vidcast is this compelling line of reasoning:
With Klay’s return, GSW will be a contender. So most rookies won’t move the needle. So either trade the picks for real help, or pick a high ceiling guy who could conceivably contribute in a simple role.
I think most of the conversations on this board are arguing about who the high ceiling guys are that can contribute in a simple role.
Trades are very hard due to the salaries of people involved.
So trading the picks for real help, or finding the high ceiling guy who can play a little right away are very hard objectives. I'm sure it's literally plan A and B in the front office.
Agreed. But for instance, I like Chris Duarte as a near-certain contributor with a low ceiling due to age. In this framework, he would not be a lottery pick.
Isn’t that the reasoning in every draft?
I feel like we've seen the opposite before, but not with such a high pick. Jacob Evans comes to mind as a guy that was selected because he was perceived as being more "NBA-ready"
Right, and that’s one of the reasons that was a bad pick (though some of that is 20:20 hindsight).
IIRC, EvanZ had Evans III ranked highly — first or second on the board where the Warriors were picking.
Maybe, but I hadn’t been thinking all those thoughts in a tight package. Also, you have to buy into the idea that there is NO “win now” rookie.
Am I the only person who remembers Tyler Herro in the bubble last season?