Regarding Moody, while the shot is obviously the main thing to focus on as he hasn't yet proven he can actually shoot in the NBA, I do think he's shown some nice flashes of "other stuff".
Here's an example near the end of the game of Moody contesting a drive in the paint and showing great verticality, how many SGs can do this and actually affect the shot?
Having the early stellar record looking more and more important. Looks like the next while at the least will be a battle of attrition among teams of "who do we have to suit up tonight."
It's also interesting the warriors have barely been touched thus far. Hopefully this current outbreak just makes everyone more cautious and keeps our guys healthy!
The Warriors are 24-6 with a sure-fire Hall of Famer and three lottery picks playing only 300 of the team’s combined 7,225 minutes.
I wouldn’t trade this roster for any other team’s, nor would I trade it for any previous GSW roster. (The Durant-era teams were mighty but didn’t include a next generation like this one.)
Way too early to be down on Moody. However, there is another 19 year old that looks better than decent. Alperin Sengun. I'm guessing they passed on him to take Moody because they were thinking take a player who can fill Klay's spot in case he isn't Klay again. That may turn out to be the right thinking, but Sengun...
Relatedly, if Sengun continues to pan out and creates a slow-footed yet smart/crafty post play problem in the future, I’m all for it. I like the variety, and he’s variety for sure. But if that’s the case, I’m sure glad the dubs drafted a 7’ hyper-athlete in Wise to defend those spin moves down low, and then absolutely roastify him in transition. Not to mention what Draymond would do with him!
Predictably, the Celts game L2M report shows that the charge should have been a block… but that Steph traveled on the prior possession, so it would have been a turnover anyways. I know I can always count on the NBA to say that “got it right” somehow
I thought Kerr should’ve challenged that play. It would’ve given them the chance to keep possession and keep Steph in the game, but Kerr said he didn’t want to risk losing his last time out.
Kerr's true feeling come out. A timeout >>> Curry. How does Steph feel about this? Can the relationship be repaired after this breech in trust? Is trouble brewing in paradise? Stay tuned!
In fairness, one choice was a sure thing and the other was taking a chance. Kerr said after the game that from his angle he thought it was a charge at the time. They also have very little time to make up their mind on whether to challenge.
I really think the challenge rules need to be revised to at least 1 per half or 1 plus a bonus one for the final 2 minutes. The way it works now is essentially “The refs screwed us on this call but how do I know they’re not gonna screws us harder when it matters more?”
It’s ok, we’re coming up to a tough stretch, with both Klay and Wise playing their first games in a while. There’s going to be plenty of upcoming opportunities for legitimate park clutching ;-)
Dec 19, 2021·edited Dec 19, 2021Liked by Eric Apricot
I liked what Kuminga said in the postgame interview.
“Trust the process,”
“Be a sponge. Listen to everything they tell you. And work every day work hard and get better.”
“It’s a great situation,”….. “There’s days I come in and play and there are days when I don’t play. That’s just about learning lessons. It’s a long season, so you’ve got to stay ready every day. I feel like I’m in a good situation because I’m learning every single day.
“I’m a sponge. It don’t matter if somebody like (rookie Moses) Moody tells me something. I’m going to pick it up and listen and learn. That goes for everybody.”
I really wanted Barnes (and was hoping he’d make it to 7 )and he’s been exactly as billed; high energy, high BBIQ and great feel for the game. Mullin said he has Magic Johnson thing going on and I can see that.
Now that we’ve seen how much further along than expected he was and how he’s developing, I’m equally excited about our guy, especially since we thus far haven’t needed what Barnes brings to be good like I thought we would.
Kuminga is averaging 4ppg and 8.5mpg. Most of the guys on your list are starters and have successfully integrated with their team. They also play different positions and in different systems. With a tiny sample size, one can theorize about how effective a player could be. Most of the players on this list are beyond the theorizing period. Barnes and Mobley are well on their way to ROY. Check Barnes shooting %, rpg, apg to get a feel for a complete player's toolbox. Maybe Kuminga could replace Draymond, give us 10-12 more points per game than Dray does, and our offensive game would be off the charts? Hmm, interesting.
Agreed, this is a charming but classic wrong/incomplete look at the numbers. If we had Barnes or Mobley (and omg that would be an amazing fantasy!) they wouldn’t be starters and would have minutes closer to JFK’s than otherwise. Probably more minutes because of better game sense but still nothing like they are seeing on their teams now.
I wonder what rookies want more? To be drafted by a very good team and get limited playing time behind good veterans, or become a starter on a terrible team? Mobley is the ideal situation (from his perspective) - get the starting role and be part of turning a terrible team into a respectable one. He will get a lot of the credit for that.
The numbers are not really “incomplete” in the sense of cherrypicked (I gave the full NBA career numbers of all ten players) and not “wrong.” It’s one piece of data that obviously needs context, like any data. I did not draw any conclusions from it, beyond, “hey look, our guy hasn’t been too bad so far.”
Next time, instead of posting a specific piece of data, I’ll just post a link to the overall Basketball Reference website, from which you can pull all the data available for every player ever, with all the available context? ;-P
As to your second question: my guess is most rookies would prefer getting big minutes to being on a really good team, for the simple reason that big minutes are more likely to get them big $$$$ on their next contract. Still: Kuminga has been saying all the right things about the benefits of being able to absorb winning habits like a “sponge,” with champions / hoops geniuses like Draymond, Andre, and Steph constantly in his ears.
Wiseman said the same thing last year. Putting the pieces together is a different process, though. Even when Kuminga plays big minutes in Santa Cruz, he's more of a lone wolf than anything else. This is undoubtedly due to his superior physical constitution and athleticism. He feels he can do it all. But learning a team sport is a different matter. Even Steph knows this.
Ok, I see your point. And I agree with your conclusion (“That’ll do?”).
But. If I were going to post a list of numbers like this, I’d either admit up front that the comparison has limited value due to factors like total minutes played or position played. Or I’d post different numbers that try to take those factors into account. But mostly I wouldn’t try because analysis like this is friggin’ hard and I don’t want everyone here who is better at that stuff than me jumping down my throat!
Small sample size is fair. I thought it was obvious enough, but could have noted it. But again — it’s the full NBA sample we have, for all ten players.
Position played is irrelevant — TS% does not vary that much by position, and the relevant connection between the players listed is that they’re top 10 players picked in this year’s draft. Should I wait to post any numbers about the top 10 picks until we have a draft in which the top 10 picks all play the same position and role?
The most relevant context with TS% is of course scoring volume, and I provided that. I do think that in the case of Jon K, 170 minutes is a small enough sample where we might be getting as much noise as signal in terms of its predictive value.
All good. The discussion about rookies’ comparative value (and hypothetical historical draft pick changes) is a fun one and one I’m happy to participate. Rosterbation ftw. Admittedly it’s a challenge to compare the top 10 who have such varied skill sets, positions, and playing opportunities. But comparing the top 10 draft picks somehow is utterly worthwhile.
I am not much of an NBA stat wonk so didn’t know that TS% doesn’t vary much by position.
Why are you participating and offering an opinion in this GP2 vs. DM exercise? Isn’t it, in your words below as “pointless” as a Barnes vs. Kuminga exercise?
Because signing GP2 to a team-friendly contract remains a live issue. He doesn’t yet have a multi-year deal. Re-doing the 2020 draft is not a live issue.
“Better jumpshot” is still somewhat theoretical, given GP is shooting .395 from 3 to Mitchell’s .309. I kinda doubt GP’s number is “real” … but I also doubt a 23 y.o. who’s a consistently poor FT shooter like Mitchell will ever be a great jump shooter, a concern expressed at the time of the draft.
I’d call Mitchell more like “GP with better handles and PG skills — but significantly less length, less athleticism, way worse scoring efficiency, and night-and-day worse rebounding.” The rebounding in particular is a biggie for me, since it rarely changes much in young players. Payton will always be a fantastic rebounder, whereas Mitchell will always be a poor one.
I was reading “…GP2 with a better jump shot” and about to reply, but saw there was a (not visible) reply and thought “Sleepy probably already handled this.” and clicked it. You didn’t disappoint. 😁
Different positions and different systems, you say? And just two data points? And small samples? Who knew?? ;-P
Just posting the scoring numbers as they stand, ma’am, not really “theorizing” or making any grand pronouncements about how good any of these players will be.
Fwiw: none of these guys are “beyond the theorizing period.” A totally raw, clueless-looking rookie can turn out to be Giannis; and a fully realized ROY can turn out to be Tyreke Evans or Michael-Carter Williams.
I guess if I were going to theorize anything, it would be: (1) picking 23 y.o. Davion Mitchell at #7 due to his perceived “NBA readiness,” as many were imploring Myers to do before the draft, seems as unwise to me now as it did then; and (2) haters, leave Jonathan Kuminga alone! Or at least check back in in, oh I don’t know, 317 days, when he’ll no longer be a teenager?
If you think that I am a JK hater you would be very wrong. I don't have a crush on him like you, but I wish him well. It will take time for him to become a real team player. At present, he's about himself. He wants the ball, he needs the ball. But, of course, you are always right, want to be right, and need to be right. Righteous and arrogant to the core.
Which is why folks writing him off was/is silly. Despite looking mostly lost for long stretches last year, he also commonly scored with extreme ease. Defense on the other hand…
Why is it that Warriors fans on Twitter seem to think they know more than Steve? Is it something that us as "international" fans cannot understand? Because it really baffles me. Has he not earned the right not to be constantly questioned even? I'd really love to understand this. One guy on the spaces said that Steve is intimidated by a young, talented black player from Africa. He's holding him back and he doesn't know how to coach him. What does that even mean?? I really like JK's game. I'd always hoped the pick would convey and the Warriors draft him. He just has a lot of tools that the team didn't have. Him being a fellow African and the story he has means I like him even more. I'd love for JK to get more minutes. With that being said, I trust Steve to do what's best for him. If he gets pulled out for mistakes or has his flows pointed out I'll respect that because it's Steve- he's seen it all. But this isn't just about JK. I see and hear folks question Steve all the time and I just wonder what the story is there?
Kerr pointed out in his postgame why Kuminga isn't getting more minutes. "Has to get more than 1 rebound" and "had 6 turnovers".
Given how on and off Kuminga's engagement has been in the past, the worst thing you can do is make him think scoring entitles him to minutes. They need to build better habits from him.
It's similar to how they should have been developing Wiseman imo. Focus on the basics that they need to be solid NBA players in a limited role, and then work on the other stuff over time. I'd say the idea was similar with Moody, that he could hit enough threes early on in a limited 3 and D role to offset all the other rookie issues (or at least let the team survive them), although so far his shot has not been there so he's looked farther off than expected.
I agree that Wiseman would’ve benefitted from that type of development and limiting his role, but it’s tangerines and oranges. The team has the luxury of a lot more depth in front of Kuminga than they had with Wiseman; Chriss was hurt early, leaving with only the notoriously (at that point) fragile Looney as the only other big.
Kerr might end up justified with how he used Wiseman. He drilled the system into Poole's head for a year and now Poole is able to score off of cuts and shoot coming off screens and is a more well rounded player for it.
I think it might be different with big men which is why I'm skeptical of the approach, but if Wiseman comes into this season throwing a bunch of nice passes from the post or something then I'll have to admit that Kerr wins again.
Also, everyone points to his G-League stint giving him “more confidence”, but as Poole said, he never lacked confidence. I think Poole really benefitted from Oubre getting hurt and (to a lesser extent) them giving up on Mannion as it opened up a lot more consistent minutes without him having to look over his shoulder.
These guys are nothing but role players here, despite their talent. They need to come in and do what's required of them. If they perform beyond what's required then their roles will reflect that. As for Wiseman, I think he'll benefit a lot from the experience of last season. He should be a lot better at the things he was getting wrong. A simplified role should help him there too. As you said, maybe Steve got his lesson with the Wiseman thing and is not trying to repeat that same mistake. Whatever the case is I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
> These guys are nothing but role players here, despite their talent. They need to come in and do what's required of them.
I agree, and it's all about mentality. Kuminga has the skills to be an excellent smallball big man. He does not yet have the skills to be an excellent perimeter player. Getting him to focus on the former will get him more playing time and thus more patience to develop the latter.
But Kerr said in the post game that he absolutely wants Kuminga taking shots from the perimeter as it’s critical for his development. He just wants to improve the decision-making process of when to drive, pass or shoot better.
Precisely! Just excel in your role. If you do more, it must not be to the detriment of your main role. That would be like GPII not playing defense and just shooting 3s.
Wide open places like Twitter have scorchingly stupid hot takes. It’s a great way to hear from players and quick news, but if you want a far more intelligent discussion, a place like this is far better. We’ll disagree on things (including Kerr’s moves), but back up our opinions with facts, stats and examples. I don’t recall ever seeing anything as ridiculous as “Kerr is intimidated by black player from Africa” here.
I’m curious what country you’re from? I’m a big wildlife enthusiast and have been on trips to Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda and (briefly) Kenya and hope to go back before to long. I’ve met so many wonderful people there.
That is what I have appreciated about this site too. People will always disagree- as it should be with sports. It just seems weird when you go as far as saying he's intimidated by a young, talented kid from Africa. This guy is managing Steph Curry.
I am from South Africa, Kwa-Zulu Natal. As you can imagine I am not that much of a wildlife enthusiast having grown up around it. You sort of take these things for granted.
I don’t know about your 2nd statement. I grew up in California and have spent a lot of time in the wilderness, but still get excited seeing bears, coyotes, deer, elk, birds of prey, sea life, etc. I live in Hawaii now and am in or on the water nearly every day, seeing whales, dolphins and other sea life up close. I also volunteer at a wildlife sanctuary taking care of exotic birds and used to volunteer at Oakland Zoo helping take care of reptiles. For hardcore animal nuts, it never gets old and I never take it for granted. 😁
You should definitely come visit. Lots to see! I'll look into getting a tax rebate for having played a role in you coming.
I guess you have a point there. But I have been to see the "Big Five" since I was 6 or so. It is something that I take for granted now- until someone like you mentions how great an experience it is 😂
The big five is just a starting point and it’s kind of a marketing thing derived from hunting. Most of my awesome wildlife moments in Africa didn’t include the big five:
- Having a 450 pound silverback gorilla pass four feet in front of me and then mate with a female, while in middle of 30 other gorillas frolicking around.
- Spending an entire morning trying catch glimpses of chimpanzees high in the trees, then later being alone on a trail and stopping dead in my tracks when a troop of 20 chimps (including babies riding on their mom’s backs) crossed right in front of me about 15 feet away, each of them looking at me right in the eyes like “Oh hey, just passing through here.”
- Watching hundreds of wildebeests crossing the Mara River trying to avoid massive crocodiles.
- Seeing a young chimp and baboon playing together when their species are normally enemies.
I could go on, but that kind of stuff is pretty priceless in my book.
Haha you definitely live for this stuff! I am sure some of the locals do too. But a lot of us just take it for granted.
One more thing here. The wildlife experience is also very expensive for the locals. If you hold the dollar, euro or pound then the exchange rate favours you. One dollar is 15.90 right now in local currency. As you said about the big five, the experience is reserved for international tourists. Locals would rather spend their money elsewhere
You can take out the "on Twitter" part. There are always fans that think they know more, and that's been around since before the internet.
The internet just magnifies the loudest ones the most.
I remember checking out the Spurs site a few years ago and even Popovich has loud detractors on their fan site.
Just gotta ignore the really dumb takes. Kerr isn't perfect, he still makes mistakes and has his quirks and biases. Like, it should not have taken 39 games of Wanamaker to finally get Poole minutes last year.
I mentioned the Twitter part because I've found this site to be different. I don't believe that any coach is perfect. They all have their flaws. But if one wins you 3 championships then you take that.
First, no. Just being an expert in something doesn't remove you from criticism. He's admitted to mistakes before, the team has made adjustments that reflect some of the critiques from online (including running more pick and roll for Wiseman, for example).
And then for this part:
> Has he not earned the right not to be constantly questioned even? I'd really love to understand this. One guy on the spaces said...
Don't mistake one person's opinion as widely held, or even a good indicator of what the broader population of fans think. The loud voices pull a lot of attention, but that doesn't mean they speak for the community - especially true with online sports discussions
Sure. It happens in every sport. I watch a lot of football (or soccer as you guys call it) and the best managers get called out there too. But it is a little weird to me when you constantly have negative things to say like you can do better. A lot of it is through hindsight as well. Coaches will make mistakes. Can you imagine what it would be like if they were afraid to fail?. But it seems to me that Steve has not made THAT many. I just feel that at the end of the day you have to yield to the expert, especially one that's won so many championships.
I hear you, hence I asked why this is the case on Twitter. It's like people want to be right at all costs.
Yea, criticizing the strategic decisions and stuff like that is fair game especially if people on the internet want to back it up with their own logic/stats or whatever. But the personal stuff like his supposed "fear of the the young african kid that's holding him back" is just non-sense... how would anyone even know unless you're with them everyday?
That's exactly why I ask if there's more to it. Even schemes and strategic decisions, we aren't there everyday. Sometimes coaches bench you just because you were late in training or whatever. We've just seen that in the UK where Arsenal suspended their best player for missing practice. Not to say that is the case here, but we don't know everything that goes on. Steve would never say it outright either. But I appreciate people who back up their points and not just say stuff on the whim, or in the aftermath.
Given’s Steve’s background [grew up in Beirut] and years in the NBA, this take seems ludicrous. But fans questions coaches, that’s what they do. Heck, 1 poster on this site [at least] called for SK to be fired last year and this year. Obviously, that’s ridiculous. I hope Kerr is the coach for the next 10-15 years.
As you should. I don't understand the Chiozza bit myself, but maybe that's why we're on the other end and not on the court or coaching staff somewhere.
It seems to me that these guys control the narrative with their "insights" and people just lap it up. I am all for questioning and pointing out things here and there but it starts to look a little weird when you constantly have something to say like you can do better.
A lot of people like to think they can do better than Kerr. I guess that's just their opinion. I'll trust the guy that has 400 wins and hasn't had a single public complaint from a player or colleague (except maybe for Oubre's "putting me in a box" comments?).
A lot of fans have the attention span of two year olds. I was watching a game about a month ago where Poole missed a couple of very makable layups. The friend I was watching with became irate, "this guy can't finish a damn layup! Kerr needs to pull him!"
(Poole's shooting 70.3% from within 5 feet - pretty elite finisher for a guard)
I think like my friend's rant, a lot of the dumb comments are heat of the moment reactions from people, sometimes made in anger, who generalize from what happened in the last five minutes. Maybe some of this type of reaction is fantasy league/gambling related - this scrub just lost me $100, screw him, trade the bum.
Our sages here (like Sleepy) help keep this site on track by feeding us stats and saying things like "regression to the mean." That's why I like hanging out here, and don't spend a lot of time bothering with Twitter or the Former Site.
I believe most idiotic comments are made by idiots and--newsflash!--the internet doesn't filter out idiots. But I think you hit the nail on the head with this: "Maybe some of this type of reaction is fantasy league/gambling related"
I don't understand the expectation for perfection all the time either. In any sport players make mistakes. Folks can't just say it was a bad game, we move on. Everything gets scrutinised. Look at D Lee. Nobody cares that he lost his rhythm through injury. He's now the worst thing ever.
He's done it to great effect too. I really do not envy him. It has been so funny to see people credit Atkinson for a lot that's gone right this season. Anything not to give the guy credit. I believe in giving winning managers a lot of leeway.
It's especially funny because the Warriors are ultimately just reverting back to their 2014-2015 style when Gentry was the assistant head coach. I'm sure Atkinson has more experience coaching young guys but as far as the main team goes, this isn't really anything new. Certainly not "Steve 2.0".
He’s only 19. I think he’ll grow, get stronger and learn how to absorb contact much like JP has. I think he’ll be fine, but might take him 18months, which seems like an acceptable time frame for this FO. But yeah, if that doesn’t happen he will be out of options
Barnes is clearly the more polished guy right now and he's going to be really good for a long time. But in all the H2H plays I've seen since preseason (summer league?), JK has owned that matchup even with all his rawness. Tonight, I don't think any of Scottie's points came while having JK on him... though he had a few nice moves.
JK also missed a couple very make-able shots: (1) baseline drive, double-pump dunk and (2) nice drive in transition to beat Barnes and Achiuwa into a reverse layup.
He's definitely more ready. That said, I don't understand why we're asking this, given that the Raptors would NEVER make that trade, and that's to be expected. If they liked Kuminga's potential, they could have taken him. They clearly wanted the more ready guy, and I don't blame them.
As to who will end up with the better career, that remains to be seen. At this point in their rookie years, Tyreke Evans was well-ahead of a talented but fragile Stephen Curry. Glad we never made /that/ trade.
Says the guy who just took part in the GP2 vs. DM discussion and said he’d rather have GP2. Was that exercise not “pointless”?
Since absolutely nothing said here makes any difference to the Warriors level of success, everything we say is “pointless”.
We’re just chopping it up discussing scenarios and hypotheticals. If you only want discussions that aren’t “pointless”, perhaps you need to join the team’s front office or coaching staff.
Right now Moody isn't doing the thing that was supposed to be a given which is shooting. Perhaps his release is too slow or he can't handle the NBA pressure or whatever, if that's the case we'll definitely have to reevaluate.
But assuming the shot comes around I think he still projects very well, he's shown nice rebounding and passing instincts. Too right hand dominant though, one very impressive thing about Kuminga are these soaring lefty finishes.
News flash: Pro scouts and GM’s get it wrong a lot too.
I feel pretty right so far about Barnes and Wagner being good and Mitchell being overrated, but wrong about Kuminga being a long way off and Sengun’s defense making him a bad pick.
Regarding Moody, while the shot is obviously the main thing to focus on as he hasn't yet proven he can actually shoot in the NBA, I do think he's shown some nice flashes of "other stuff".
Here's an example near the end of the game of Moody contesting a drive in the paint and showing great verticality, how many SGs can do this and actually affect the shot?
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=643&GameID=0022100443&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS%20Watanabe%207%27%20Driving%20Bank%20Hook%20Shot&sct=plot
We'll see how he boxes out as he gets stronger but just in terms of reflexes and hands this rebound was pretty impressive
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=600&GameID=0022100443&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS%20Achiuwa%20Free%20Throw%201%20of%201&sct=plot
Great examples of Moody doing the things he can do and doing them well. That’s a good place for him to start!
I liked that rebound a lot!!
Having the early stellar record looking more and more important. Looks like the next while at the least will be a battle of attrition among teams of "who do we have to suit up tonight."
It's also interesting the warriors have barely been touched thus far. Hopefully this current outbreak just makes everyone more cautious and keeps our guys healthy!
I'm actually kind of hoping that if the Warriors do get sick, they do it now rather than during the playoffs (which we will just assume are a given).
Pinch me. Ooooh, do it again, but harder.
The Warriors are 24-6 with a sure-fire Hall of Famer and three lottery picks playing only 300 of the team’s combined 7,225 minutes.
I wouldn’t trade this roster for any other team’s, nor would I trade it for any previous GSW roster. (The Durant-era teams were mighty but didn’t include a next generation like this one.)
I ain't pinching anyone.
Oh come on Ashy, don't be like that! I'll let you pinch me, too. ;) ;) ;)
Not everybody into the same stuff.
Way too early to be down on Moody. However, there is another 19 year old that looks better than decent. Alperin Sengun. I'm guessing they passed on him to take Moody because they were thinking take a player who can fill Klay's spot in case he isn't Klay again. That may turn out to be the right thinking, but Sengun...
I expect they barely considered Sengun or any of the other big prospects because Wiseman was on the roster more than anything.
Man, OKC traded Sengun for future firsts lmao
I think having Wiseman on the roster might have precluded that pick as well.
Agreed. Sengun made little sense paired with JW.
Relatedly, if Sengun continues to pan out and creates a slow-footed yet smart/crafty post play problem in the future, I’m all for it. I like the variety, and he’s variety for sure. But if that’s the case, I’m sure glad the dubs drafted a 7’ hyper-athlete in Wise to defend those spin moves down low, and then absolutely roastify him in transition. Not to mention what Draymond would do with him!
Predictably, the Celts game L2M report shows that the charge should have been a block… but that Steph traveled on the prior possession, so it would have been a turnover anyways. I know I can always count on the NBA to say that “got it right” somehow
I thought Kerr should’ve challenged that play. It would’ve given them the chance to keep possession and keep Steph in the game, but Kerr said he didn’t want to risk losing his last time out.
Up 5 with 10s left, that’s the right call.
But a reversal gives you possession AND keeps Curry on the floor AND fouls Smart out of the game.
Dubs rarely ger an on-court refs' reversal though. And it was in BAAAHstun.
Kerr's true feeling come out. A timeout >>> Curry. How does Steph feel about this? Can the relationship be repaired after this breech in trust? Is trouble brewing in paradise? Stay tuned!
Steph is a passing thing. Timeouts are forever. 😁
In fairness, one choice was a sure thing and the other was taking a chance. Kerr said after the game that from his angle he thought it was a charge at the time. They also have very little time to make up their mind on whether to challenge.
I really think the challenge rules need to be revised to at least 1 per half or 1 plus a bonus one for the final 2 minutes. The way it works now is essentially “The refs screwed us on this call but how do I know they’re not gonna screws us harder when it matters more?”
It’s ok, we’re coming up to a tough stretch, with both Klay and Wise playing their first games in a while. There’s going to be plenty of upcoming opportunities for legitimate park clutching ;-)
I liked what Kuminga said in the postgame interview.
“Trust the process,”
“Be a sponge. Listen to everything they tell you. And work every day work hard and get better.”
“It’s a great situation,”….. “There’s days I come in and play and there are days when I don’t play. That’s just about learning lessons. It’s a long season, so you’ve got to stay ready every day. I feel like I’m in a good situation because I’m learning every single day.
“I’m a sponge. It don’t matter if somebody like (rookie Moses) Moody tells me something. I’m going to pick it up and listen and learn. That goes for everybody.”
I just watched that interview too. I like JK a lot. And I really like how natural and unforced his 3s looked last night. He's coming along well.
Just did. [Thanks to PCL.] I like the full color version!!
https://twitter.com/joeviraynba/status/1472422453137719300?s=12
Current scoring volume/efficiency of the top 10 picks in the 2021 draft.
1. Cunningham 17.9 pts per 36 on .493 ts
2. Green 16.3 on .498
3. Mobley 15.7 on .538
4. Barnes 15.6 pts on .554
5. Suggs 15.9 pts on .444
6. Giddey 12.7 on .445
7. Kuminga 18.6 on .556
8. Wagner 16.3 on .532
9. Mitchell 13.6 on .471
10. Williams 9.6 on .443
[Checks math] Kuminga #1 in scoring efficiency, #1 in scoring volume among the top ten. At 19 years and 47 days old. That’ll do?
I really wanted Barnes (and was hoping he’d make it to 7 )and he’s been exactly as billed; high energy, high BBIQ and great feel for the game. Mullin said he has Magic Johnson thing going on and I can see that.
Now that we’ve seen how much further along than expected he was and how he’s developing, I’m equally excited about our guy, especially since we thus far haven’t needed what Barnes brings to be good like I thought we would.
My edit feature doesn’t always work.
Curious how basically none of the guys billed as shooters in the draft have really done much so far.
Trey Murphy living up to it the most but he's still only 37% from 3. Corey Kispert at 26%, oof.
Wagner out-pacing expectations with the 3pt shot so far I guess.
Kuminga is averaging 4ppg and 8.5mpg. Most of the guys on your list are starters and have successfully integrated with their team. They also play different positions and in different systems. With a tiny sample size, one can theorize about how effective a player could be. Most of the players on this list are beyond the theorizing period. Barnes and Mobley are well on their way to ROY. Check Barnes shooting %, rpg, apg to get a feel for a complete player's toolbox. Maybe Kuminga could replace Draymond, give us 10-12 more points per game than Dray does, and our offensive game would be off the charts? Hmm, interesting.
Agreed, this is a charming but classic wrong/incomplete look at the numbers. If we had Barnes or Mobley (and omg that would be an amazing fantasy!) they wouldn’t be starters and would have minutes closer to JFK’s than otherwise. Probably more minutes because of better game sense but still nothing like they are seeing on their teams now.
I wonder what rookies want more? To be drafted by a very good team and get limited playing time behind good veterans, or become a starter on a terrible team? Mobley is the ideal situation (from his perspective) - get the starting role and be part of turning a terrible team into a respectable one. He will get a lot of the credit for that.
The numbers are not really “incomplete” in the sense of cherrypicked (I gave the full NBA career numbers of all ten players) and not “wrong.” It’s one piece of data that obviously needs context, like any data. I did not draw any conclusions from it, beyond, “hey look, our guy hasn’t been too bad so far.”
Next time, instead of posting a specific piece of data, I’ll just post a link to the overall Basketball Reference website, from which you can pull all the data available for every player ever, with all the available context? ;-P
As to your second question: my guess is most rookies would prefer getting big minutes to being on a really good team, for the simple reason that big minutes are more likely to get them big $$$$ on their next contract. Still: Kuminga has been saying all the right things about the benefits of being able to absorb winning habits like a “sponge,” with champions / hoops geniuses like Draymond, Andre, and Steph constantly in his ears.
> Still: Kuminga has been saying all the right things about the benefits of being able to absorb winning habits
He also has a high-profile teammate that got stuck on a bad team, got a big contract, and was not happy until he got here.
Wiseman said the same thing last year. Putting the pieces together is a different process, though. Even when Kuminga plays big minutes in Santa Cruz, he's more of a lone wolf than anything else. This is undoubtedly due to his superior physical constitution and athleticism. He feels he can do it all. But learning a team sport is a different matter. Even Steph knows this.
Ok, I see your point. And I agree with your conclusion (“That’ll do?”).
But. If I were going to post a list of numbers like this, I’d either admit up front that the comparison has limited value due to factors like total minutes played or position played. Or I’d post different numbers that try to take those factors into account. But mostly I wouldn’t try because analysis like this is friggin’ hard and I don’t want everyone here who is better at that stuff than me jumping down my throat!
Small sample size is fair. I thought it was obvious enough, but could have noted it. But again — it’s the full NBA sample we have, for all ten players.
Position played is irrelevant — TS% does not vary that much by position, and the relevant connection between the players listed is that they’re top 10 players picked in this year’s draft. Should I wait to post any numbers about the top 10 picks until we have a draft in which the top 10 picks all play the same position and role?
The most relevant context with TS% is of course scoring volume, and I provided that. I do think that in the case of Jon K, 170 minutes is a small enough sample where we might be getting as much noise as signal in terms of its predictive value.
To be continued…
And JK TS is trending up, sure, he had a hot night last night, but overall he’s finding his spots better off late, I think
All good. The discussion about rookies’ comparative value (and hypothetical historical draft pick changes) is a fun one and one I’m happy to participate. Rosterbation ftw. Admittedly it’s a challenge to compare the top 10 who have such varied skill sets, positions, and playing opportunities. But comparing the top 10 draft picks somehow is utterly worthwhile.
I am not much of an NBA stat wonk so didn’t know that TS% doesn’t vary much by position.
Agreed on DM. He was the pick at #7 for TOS. But he’s basically GP2 with a better jump shot. I’d rather have GP2 on a team-friendly contract.
Why are you participating and offering an opinion in this GP2 vs. DM exercise? Isn’t it, in your words below as “pointless” as a Barnes vs. Kuminga exercise?
Because signing GP2 to a team-friendly contract remains a live issue. He doesn’t yet have a multi-year deal. Re-doing the 2020 draft is not a live issue.
I'd still rather have Miles McBride than Davion Mitchell
“Better jumpshot” is still somewhat theoretical, given GP is shooting .395 from 3 to Mitchell’s .309. I kinda doubt GP’s number is “real” … but I also doubt a 23 y.o. who’s a consistently poor FT shooter like Mitchell will ever be a great jump shooter, a concern expressed at the time of the draft.
I’d call Mitchell more like “GP with better handles and PG skills — but significantly less length, less athleticism, way worse scoring efficiency, and night-and-day worse rebounding.” The rebounding in particular is a biggie for me, since it rarely changes much in young players. Payton will always be a fantastic rebounder, whereas Mitchell will always be a poor one.
I was reading “…GP2 with a better jump shot” and about to reply, but saw there was a (not visible) reply and thought “Sleepy probably already handled this.” and clicked it. You didn’t disappoint. 😁
Different positions and different systems, you say? And just two data points? And small samples? Who knew?? ;-P
Just posting the scoring numbers as they stand, ma’am, not really “theorizing” or making any grand pronouncements about how good any of these players will be.
Fwiw: none of these guys are “beyond the theorizing period.” A totally raw, clueless-looking rookie can turn out to be Giannis; and a fully realized ROY can turn out to be Tyreke Evans or Michael-Carter Williams.
I guess if I were going to theorize anything, it would be: (1) picking 23 y.o. Davion Mitchell at #7 due to his perceived “NBA readiness,” as many were imploring Myers to do before the draft, seems as unwise to me now as it did then; and (2) haters, leave Jonathan Kuminga alone! Or at least check back in in, oh I don’t know, 317 days, when he’ll no longer be a teenager?
If you think that I am a JK hater you would be very wrong. I don't have a crush on him like you, but I wish him well. It will take time for him to become a real team player. At present, he's about himself. He wants the ball, he needs the ball. But, of course, you are always right, want to be right, and need to be right. Righteous and arrogant to the core.
These are theories I can agree with 👍.
Last year, Wiseman was 19 or so per 36, as I recall.
Which is why folks writing him off was/is silly. Despite looking mostly lost for long stretches last year, he also commonly scored with extreme ease. Defense on the other hand…
19.3 pts on .552 TS%.
Why is it that Warriors fans on Twitter seem to think they know more than Steve? Is it something that us as "international" fans cannot understand? Because it really baffles me. Has he not earned the right not to be constantly questioned even? I'd really love to understand this. One guy on the spaces said that Steve is intimidated by a young, talented black player from Africa. He's holding him back and he doesn't know how to coach him. What does that even mean?? I really like JK's game. I'd always hoped the pick would convey and the Warriors draft him. He just has a lot of tools that the team didn't have. Him being a fellow African and the story he has means I like him even more. I'd love for JK to get more minutes. With that being said, I trust Steve to do what's best for him. If he gets pulled out for mistakes or has his flows pointed out I'll respect that because it's Steve- he's seen it all. But this isn't just about JK. I see and hear folks question Steve all the time and I just wonder what the story is there?
Kerr pointed out in his postgame why Kuminga isn't getting more minutes. "Has to get more than 1 rebound" and "had 6 turnovers".
Given how on and off Kuminga's engagement has been in the past, the worst thing you can do is make him think scoring entitles him to minutes. They need to build better habits from him.
It's similar to how they should have been developing Wiseman imo. Focus on the basics that they need to be solid NBA players in a limited role, and then work on the other stuff over time. I'd say the idea was similar with Moody, that he could hit enough threes early on in a limited 3 and D role to offset all the other rookie issues (or at least let the team survive them), although so far his shot has not been there so he's looked farther off than expected.
I agree that Wiseman would’ve benefitted from that type of development and limiting his role, but it’s tangerines and oranges. The team has the luxury of a lot more depth in front of Kuminga than they had with Wiseman; Chriss was hurt early, leaving with only the notoriously (at that point) fragile Looney as the only other big.
Kerr might end up justified with how he used Wiseman. He drilled the system into Poole's head for a year and now Poole is able to score off of cuts and shoot coming off screens and is a more well rounded player for it.
I think it might be different with big men which is why I'm skeptical of the approach, but if Wiseman comes into this season throwing a bunch of nice passes from the post or something then I'll have to admit that Kerr wins again.
Good point.
Also, everyone points to his G-League stint giving him “more confidence”, but as Poole said, he never lacked confidence. I think Poole really benefitted from Oubre getting hurt and (to a lesser extent) them giving up on Mannion as it opened up a lot more consistent minutes without him having to look over his shoulder.
These guys are nothing but role players here, despite their talent. They need to come in and do what's required of them. If they perform beyond what's required then their roles will reflect that. As for Wiseman, I think he'll benefit a lot from the experience of last season. He should be a lot better at the things he was getting wrong. A simplified role should help him there too. As you said, maybe Steve got his lesson with the Wiseman thing and is not trying to repeat that same mistake. Whatever the case is I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
> These guys are nothing but role players here, despite their talent. They need to come in and do what's required of them.
I agree, and it's all about mentality. Kuminga has the skills to be an excellent smallball big man. He does not yet have the skills to be an excellent perimeter player. Getting him to focus on the former will get him more playing time and thus more patience to develop the latter.
But Kerr said in the post game that he absolutely wants Kuminga taking shots from the perimeter as it’s critical for his development. He just wants to improve the decision-making process of when to drive, pass or shoot better.
Precisely! Just excel in your role. If you do more, it must not be to the detriment of your main role. That would be like GPII not playing defense and just shooting 3s.
Wide open places like Twitter have scorchingly stupid hot takes. It’s a great way to hear from players and quick news, but if you want a far more intelligent discussion, a place like this is far better. We’ll disagree on things (including Kerr’s moves), but back up our opinions with facts, stats and examples. I don’t recall ever seeing anything as ridiculous as “Kerr is intimidated by black player from Africa” here.
I’m curious what country you’re from? I’m a big wildlife enthusiast and have been on trips to Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda and (briefly) Kenya and hope to go back before to long. I’ve met so many wonderful people there.
That is what I have appreciated about this site too. People will always disagree- as it should be with sports. It just seems weird when you go as far as saying he's intimidated by a young, talented kid from Africa. This guy is managing Steph Curry.
I am from South Africa, Kwa-Zulu Natal. As you can imagine I am not that much of a wildlife enthusiast having grown up around it. You sort of take these things for granted.
Hope to visit So. Africa one day!
I don’t know about your 2nd statement. I grew up in California and have spent a lot of time in the wilderness, but still get excited seeing bears, coyotes, deer, elk, birds of prey, sea life, etc. I live in Hawaii now and am in or on the water nearly every day, seeing whales, dolphins and other sea life up close. I also volunteer at a wildlife sanctuary taking care of exotic birds and used to volunteer at Oakland Zoo helping take care of reptiles. For hardcore animal nuts, it never gets old and I never take it for granted. 😁
You should definitely come visit. Lots to see! I'll look into getting a tax rebate for having played a role in you coming.
I guess you have a point there. But I have been to see the "Big Five" since I was 6 or so. It is something that I take for granted now- until someone like you mentions how great an experience it is 😂
The big five is just a starting point and it’s kind of a marketing thing derived from hunting. Most of my awesome wildlife moments in Africa didn’t include the big five:
- Having a 450 pound silverback gorilla pass four feet in front of me and then mate with a female, while in middle of 30 other gorillas frolicking around.
- Spending an entire morning trying catch glimpses of chimpanzees high in the trees, then later being alone on a trail and stopping dead in my tracks when a troop of 20 chimps (including babies riding on their mom’s backs) crossed right in front of me about 15 feet away, each of them looking at me right in the eyes like “Oh hey, just passing through here.”
- Watching hundreds of wildebeests crossing the Mara River trying to avoid massive crocodiles.
- Seeing a young chimp and baboon playing together when their species are normally enemies.
I could go on, but that kind of stuff is pretty priceless in my book.
Haha you definitely live for this stuff! I am sure some of the locals do too. But a lot of us just take it for granted.
One more thing here. The wildlife experience is also very expensive for the locals. If you hold the dollar, euro or pound then the exchange rate favours you. One dollar is 15.90 right now in local currency. As you said about the big five, the experience is reserved for international tourists. Locals would rather spend their money elsewhere
You can take out the "on Twitter" part. There are always fans that think they know more, and that's been around since before the internet.
The internet just magnifies the loudest ones the most.
I remember checking out the Spurs site a few years ago and even Popovich has loud detractors on their fan site.
Just gotta ignore the really dumb takes. Kerr isn't perfect, he still makes mistakes and has his quirks and biases. Like, it should not have taken 39 games of Wanamaker to finally get Poole minutes last year.
I mentioned the Twitter part because I've found this site to be different. I don't believe that any coach is perfect. They all have their flaws. But if one wins you 3 championships then you take that.
A couple of things.
First, no. Just being an expert in something doesn't remove you from criticism. He's admitted to mistakes before, the team has made adjustments that reflect some of the critiques from online (including running more pick and roll for Wiseman, for example).
And then for this part:
> Has he not earned the right not to be constantly questioned even? I'd really love to understand this. One guy on the spaces said...
Don't mistake one person's opinion as widely held, or even a good indicator of what the broader population of fans think. The loud voices pull a lot of attention, but that doesn't mean they speak for the community - especially true with online sports discussions
Sure. It happens in every sport. I watch a lot of football (or soccer as you guys call it) and the best managers get called out there too. But it is a little weird to me when you constantly have negative things to say like you can do better. A lot of it is through hindsight as well. Coaches will make mistakes. Can you imagine what it would be like if they were afraid to fail?. But it seems to me that Steve has not made THAT many. I just feel that at the end of the day you have to yield to the expert, especially one that's won so many championships.
I hear you, hence I asked why this is the case on Twitter. It's like people want to be right at all costs.
Yea, criticizing the strategic decisions and stuff like that is fair game especially if people on the internet want to back it up with their own logic/stats or whatever. But the personal stuff like his supposed "fear of the the young african kid that's holding him back" is just non-sense... how would anyone even know unless you're with them everyday?
That's exactly why I ask if there's more to it. Even schemes and strategic decisions, we aren't there everyday. Sometimes coaches bench you just because you were late in training or whatever. We've just seen that in the UK where Arsenal suspended their best player for missing practice. Not to say that is the case here, but we don't know everything that goes on. Steve would never say it outright either. But I appreciate people who back up their points and not just say stuff on the whim, or in the aftermath.
Given’s Steve’s background [grew up in Beirut] and years in the NBA, this take seems ludicrous. But fans questions coaches, that’s what they do. Heck, 1 poster on this site [at least] called for SK to be fired last year and this year. Obviously, that’s ridiculous. I hope Kerr is the coach for the next 10-15 years.
I'm going to question kerr if he does things like plays chiozza and plays 3 non shooter lineups
As you should. I don't understand the Chiozza bit myself, but maybe that's why we're on the other end and not on the court or coaching staff somewhere.
The internet breaks a lot of idiots’ brains by feeding them constant misinformation, and giving them a forum to spout it loudly.
News at 11? :-(
It seems to me that these guys control the narrative with their "insights" and people just lap it up. I am all for questioning and pointing out things here and there but it starts to look a little weird when you constantly have something to say like you can do better.
TOTALLY agreed. [Big virtual bro hug].
A lot of people like to think they can do better than Kerr. I guess that's just their opinion. I'll trust the guy that has 400 wins and hasn't had a single public complaint from a player or colleague (except maybe for Oubre's "putting me in a box" comments?).
But where does it come from?? What makes one think they know better than a guy as decorated as Steve?? I really do not understand this.
Idiocy is the Occam’s razor explanation.
Idiocy combined with narcissism
A lot of fans have the attention span of two year olds. I was watching a game about a month ago where Poole missed a couple of very makable layups. The friend I was watching with became irate, "this guy can't finish a damn layup! Kerr needs to pull him!"
(Poole's shooting 70.3% from within 5 feet - pretty elite finisher for a guard)
I think like my friend's rant, a lot of the dumb comments are heat of the moment reactions from people, sometimes made in anger, who generalize from what happened in the last five minutes. Maybe some of this type of reaction is fantasy league/gambling related - this scrub just lost me $100, screw him, trade the bum.
Our sages here (like Sleepy) help keep this site on track by feeding us stats and saying things like "regression to the mean." That's why I like hanging out here, and don't spend a lot of time bothering with Twitter or the Former Site.
I believe most idiotic comments are made by idiots and--newsflash!--the internet doesn't filter out idiots. But I think you hit the nail on the head with this: "Maybe some of this type of reaction is fantasy league/gambling related"
Hmm - new business model - Twitter with automated idiot filtering. Gonna go call some VCs.
Paging Dr. Andre Igoudala, VC
I don't understand the expectation for perfection all the time either. In any sport players make mistakes. Folks can't just say it was a bad game, we move on. Everything gets scrutinised. Look at D Lee. Nobody cares that he lost his rhythm through injury. He's now the worst thing ever.
Don't try to understand. It doesn't make any sense :)
Exactly.
He's done it to great effect too. I really do not envy him. It has been so funny to see people credit Atkinson for a lot that's gone right this season. Anything not to give the guy credit. I believe in giving winning managers a lot of leeway.
It's especially funny because the Warriors are ultimately just reverting back to their 2014-2015 style when Gentry was the assistant head coach. I'm sure Atkinson has more experience coaching young guys but as far as the main team goes, this isn't really anything new. Certainly not "Steve 2.0".
Moody has the athleticism of looney fr fr he has to shoot at a high clip or he will be out of the league sooner then later
He’s only 19. I think he’ll grow, get stronger and learn how to absorb contact much like JP has. I think he’ll be fine, but might take him 18months, which seems like an acceptable time frame for this FO. But yeah, if that doesn’t happen he will be out of options
I think Moody is going to need to be a forward. Add strength to his frame. Too little foot speed for a guard. Heck, PJ Tucker’s like 6’5”.
Poll: Would you trade Kuminga for Barnes straight up?
100%.
I'm assuming you mean Scottie and not Harrison lol (sorry bobbita).
Mattie!
Barnes is clearly the more polished guy right now and he's going to be really good for a long time. But in all the H2H plays I've seen since preseason (summer league?), JK has owned that matchup even with all his rawness. Tonight, I don't think any of Scottie's points came while having JK on him... though he had a few nice moves.
JK beats Scottie on a 1v1 Post-up
https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2021/12/18/0022100443/35/f5d7b868-1eb0-0ded-b37d-04e70e2c8d5e_1280x720.mp4
Scottie says "you take em, Chris, I'll take Loon". JK thought bubble: "I will express myself with both hands".
https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2021/12/18/0022100443/38/148d9fb5-459e-2ce7-dbbe-7dec880f136d_1280x720.mp4
JK also missed a couple very make-able shots: (1) baseline drive, double-pump dunk and (2) nice drive in transition to beat Barnes and Achiuwa into a reverse layup.
He's definitely more ready. That said, I don't understand why we're asking this, given that the Raptors would NEVER make that trade, and that's to be expected. If they liked Kuminga's potential, they could have taken him. They clearly wanted the more ready guy, and I don't blame them.
As to who will end up with the better career, that remains to be seen. At this point in their rookie years, Tyreke Evans was well-ahead of a talented but fragile Stephen Curry. Glad we never made /that/ trade.
Agreed. This is a pointless exercise.
Says the guy who just took part in the GP2 vs. DM discussion and said he’d rather have GP2. Was that exercise not “pointless”?
Since absolutely nothing said here makes any difference to the Warriors level of success, everything we say is “pointless”.
We’re just chopping it up discussing scenarios and hypotheticals. If you only want discussions that aren’t “pointless”, perhaps you need to join the team’s front office or coaching staff.
*thank* you 🙄
just an interesting (imho) hypothetical, nothing to do with the real world
Y’all remember on draft night how we were pretending we picked Moody 7th and Kuminga 14th? Me neither ;-)
I definitely underestimated Kuminga's athleticism but it's way too early to call that race.
Right now Moody isn't doing the thing that was supposed to be a given which is shooting. Perhaps his release is too slow or he can't handle the NBA pressure or whatever, if that's the case we'll definitely have to reevaluate.
But assuming the shot comes around I think he still projects very well, he's shown nice rebounding and passing instincts. Too right hand dominant though, one very impressive thing about Kuminga are these soaring lefty finishes.
Man I'm glad I'm not a scout I was sold on moody smh
News flash: Pro scouts and GM’s get it wrong a lot too.
I feel pretty right so far about Barnes and Wagner being good and Mitchell being overrated, but wrong about Kuminga being a long way off and Sengun’s defense making him a bad pick.
give it time. Remember Poole as a rookie? Hell, remember Klay as a rookie?
It's so early to tell what these guys are going to be. But Kuminga is brimming with exciting potential. I can't wait to see what they're going to be.
The Inactive List tonight was a legit eight-man playoff rotation for a title contender.
Curry
Poole
Thompson
Iguodala
Wiggins
Porter
Green
Wiseman
Down goes Utah!
Nets and Bucks lose too.
Although maybe the Warriors should want the Nets to have a better record than them so they'd be without Kyrie more often in a playoff series?
The state or the team?
2 in a row
What a huge shot from KCP, Jazz down 5 at home with 12 seconds left
Ball don't lie: refs gifted Utah a ridiculous jump ball, but Neto outjumped Spidah and tapped it out to KCP for the dagger.
Had to miss the game today -- statistically the starters seemed to shoot ok. did we lose mainly on turnovers?
And bad defense
ah shucks I thought we could put some decent defensive lineups out there with JK, JTA, Looney, GPII
We had it, then the refs screwed us over.
All of the players we had available totaled around $22 million in salaries this year versus TOR who had $75 million.
I hope Kuminga played himself into a backup role tonight, he deserves it. Great game.