Golden State Warriors star Stephen Curry has agreed on a one-year, $62.6 million extension that’ll keep him under contract through the 2026-2027 season, his agent Jeff Austin of Octagon tells ESPN.
I think it's pretty clear that Jrue Holiday was the "clear 3rd banana" for this year's Celtics and probably also for the Bucks title team. I like Jrue and think he's underrated, but he shouldn't get full credit for both those titles, which I'm sure would drop him down the list.
Also - fwiw, at first glance this system seems to overweight RINGS and underweight All-NBA and All-Star appearances.
Curious: What produces the insatiable desire to ‘rank’ players?
There are so many variables among players, eras, roster constructions, coaching, officiating (and more) that makes ranking based on consistent and comparable factors damn nearly impossible.
Many people seem to enjoy this type of content during this news-free season. I don't, mostly for the reasons you mention, which is why I choose not to partake.
I do, however, admire the amount of work and care that new contributor Duncan has devoted to this.
OT: I've finally had it with Xitter and migrated to Bluesky. It's pretty nice and still relatively civil, but so far I use it primarily for <forbidden topic>. Many of my former favorite follows from the bird app have also migrated, so I was able to construct a decent graph pretty quickly. Still looking for good Warriors-related accounts to follow. Anyone have any hints?
So you’re telling me Lauri’s trade value is Kuminga, Podz, Moody + all of our firsts and Steph Fucking Curry gets you Austin reaves, BEN SIMMONS, and 2 firsts… I swear who writes this shit"
I mean to be fair this is just a trade scenario involved in trying to get Steph Curry to the Lakers. Theyve got nothing to offer other than those picks. A more realistic scenario is Curry playing out his contract and leaving as a FA or the Warriors making a trade for Lebron
Steph could only go to the Lakers if he wanted to go there, and if that happened we'd know he was possessed by demons and needed an exorcism. No we would not root for that Lakers team.
During a moment of boredom today, I decided to see what the results would be with a very simple system of 10 pts for MVP, 5 pts for finals MVP, 1 pt for all star. The results actually weren't too bad at the top, though probably severely underrated defense (Draymond was nowhere to be found, maybe around #200). Maybe factoring in all team def would be good. But the thing I like about using only season-specific awards is that you kind of equalize against different strategies of different eras.
Cool approach. What if you rewarded defensive team honors (3/2/1 for 1st/2nd/3rd team), with multipliers/bonuses for getting defensive honors on championship years. (+2?)
Maybe that’s cherry picking Draymond to the top, but thinking of easy-to-implement checks.
Also curious what simply looking at All-NBA team honors gives you.
I've been saying for awhile that people over reacted against Westbrook in large part due to the stat padding. Early in his career he was a terrific athlete with elite drive and kick skills. Being surrounded by shooters like KD and Harden was the ideal situation for him. It wasn't Russ' fault that ownership decided to break up the band. The counter is that when older and not in that ideal situation, Russ wasn't a max contract guy but he still got one. All of a sudden there were a lot of PG's that could do what Russ could do and also shoot from the perimeter. Some of them even played a little defense and screened for their teammates.
If you go back and watch the 2016 WCF, he was a terror. But some of his bad habits went from minor issues to major problems when his shot stopped falling often enough.
It's not really fair to include active players since Doncic, Tatum, and Westbrook are all at very different stages of their careers. Some actives may become top ten material while others have a career-destroying injury. For example, Klay?
I don't see a problem with it. Completely excluding guys like LeBron and Steph just because they are still playing seems unnecessary. The ranking essentially just captures if their career ends now, where would they fall. Guys like Luka are expected to rise significantly over time as long as they aren't suddenly afflicted with a career ending injury. As long as that expectation is understood (for example that Luka will very likely end his career much higher than he currently stands), I don't think it's a problem including active players.
Dray and Klay have the championships, but they had to share "top 3 player" during the KD years. And the individual accolades for Klay don't seem like quite enough. I'd be surprised if Andre makes it. I'm predicting only Dray makes it out of Dray + Klay + Andre.
EDIT: And if Klay doesn't make it to top 75 *again*??!? Haha
Klay & Dray won 2 championships as "Top 3" and I think they both end up getting credit for "3rd banana" in the 2x KD years. That's 100x points, just from championships won, which puts them above Jrue's 94 points without even going into the any of the other point categories.
Andre also won 4 chamipionships as a "clear major contributor" on 3 of them (35 points), one repeat (5 points), 5 straight Finals (10 points), and earning a FMVP to boot (20 points). That's 70 points already there. He needs 24 points from the rest of his resume to get past Jrue, and I think he gets there.
I'm a little surprised by Iguodala's situation here... since he only needs 24 more points to get past Holiday, and I'm confident that he covers that... but he's not listed yet, so it looks like he's over 117, and he'd need 47 to get above that, which sounds hard... but maybe he's got lots of "Top 30 Finals" leaderboard items?
Yea. There was another post about how we’re looking at roughly 10-15 players per decade. Iguodala seems marginal for the 2010’s…
Steph, Klay, Dray, KD, Lebron, Russ (stat pad), Harden (stat pad), Kawhi, Kyrie (stats) are the staples that come to mind. Maybe Chris Paul, PG. Wade straddles the decades, so maybe he’s on this shortened list. I can see a case both for and against Iguodala
Yea I'm just looking at Walton (#77) and that MVP (20 pts) and Finals MVP (15 pts) feel like it'd be hard to overcome via some of the smaller accolades (yes, the extra championships will help... but the value of two of them will be less than "top 3 player"), especially since Walton had a bunch of his own accolades as well (NCAA included).
“From a fan perspective, from a media perspective, there is this looking at the front office kind of crazy,” Podziemski said. “Like, ‘You didn’t make any trades? You want to keep Brandin? Why him?’ There are questions that obviously the public and the media has. I see my fair share of it. It’s cool, and it’s not. It’s cool to see you’re valued by another organization in the NBA for such a good player like Markkanen. But at the same time, now that the trade didn’t go through, people on social media look at it like it’s my fault. I don’t have anything to do with it. But it’s cool.”
“I think for me, anything in life, if you do something good, with good comes expectation,” Podziemski said. “I mean, I won’t go into games thinking about it. I just know what I’ve done all offseason. I know how much better of a player I’m going to be. Obviously, I have expectations for myself to perform. This is my job. But I don’t think there’s any nervousness to exceed expectations. I’m just going to be me.”
Article says the Warriors want him taking 8-10 threes a game next season. Let's hope he's actually a good enough shooter to warrant that because the 63% FT percentage last season was pretty concerning. I assume the coaching staff is also going to ask him to become more of a creator since they don't have any of that on the roster other than Curry, let's hope he's capable of doing that because he had some really ugly sequences last season trying to initiate against set defenses (he's good at pushing the pace though at least).
They are putting a lot on this kid's shoulders, he's obviously not going to say no but that doesn't mean he's capable of doing it. I'd be more encouraged by this if they had a bunch of other options and they chose to give this to Podz anyway, but I can't help but wonder if they are increasing his role this much because they have no one else.
More than a few Dubs fans wonder if a) rookies and young players are hesitant to shoot in a system that constantly looks for a ‘great’ shots (Steph) rather than a ‘good’ shots (everyone else), or b) rookies and young players haven’t developed the shot or gained the confidence from the coach and starters to let it fly.
Of course, it’s a combination of the two factors. But the green light is definitely on for Pods and his shot this season. Haven’t heard the same about Kuminga despite his flashy summer training videos…
I don't think Kuminga should get that green light for iffy jump shots. I think the coaches have wanted him to take those only if wide open, but otherwise create advantages mostly with drives and either finish at the rim or dish to someone open. If he gets a catch and shoot that's even slightly contested, he can probably beat that defender off the dribble, that's a better play for him.
Podz has consistently exceeded expectations, seems like they are pushing him to see what he can do. The ballhandling is the thing that worries me the most, we just don't have anyone else other than Steph on the team I really trust when the pressure ratchets up.
He’s amazing bringing the ball up the floor pushing the pace, but not really a guy you want handling the ball during a double team, beating guys off the dribble, etc.
If Podz takes a leap defensively and can adequately guard the other teams best guard (within reason not expecting him to shut down Morant) while on the floor with Steph, then ill know hes the real deal going forward because of him truly prioritizing his game defensively this offseason
I know Podz has and is continuing to take a bit of indirect criticism from some fans online due to ownership’s unwillingness to include him in a trade but as ive said on here, Podz has the best homegrown feel for the game since we drafted Draymond. Thats over a decade. Cant just be willing to trade all that away especially when you would have still needed to trade picks to further erode team post Steph.
I don't think he has the tools (size, quickness) to ever be the primary perimeter defender. If he can just guard his position well, and do a reasonable job against wings, I'm good. He's already shown he can hold his own against bigs some.
If I was going to design the ideal NBA player by Frankensteining parts of different players in a lab, I’d seriously consider using Podz’ mentality. Dude really seems to have the right approach to being the best player he can be.
Great article. It's always really interesting to read about how players are watching film and studying their own mistakes - and then working to fix them. It's such a positive way to improve, and so challenging for nearly anyone to accept this kind of continuous criticism without getting upset.
Depends on if he can figure out how to create shots off of the dribble or not. At his size the "connective" stuff only goes so far, he needs to be an initiator to really max out.
Not sure what this comparison is intended to state? Also all of those dudes besides Caruso have at least a few inches of wingspan on Podz, and Caruso is decidedly below the other three in overall impact precisely because he's very offensively limited.
One question this prompts for me, specifically with regards to the Derrick White comp: Is charge-drawing properly thought of as a form of rim protection? And if so, how does it compare to shot blocking in terms of a) value and b) repeatability season over season?
I don’t know the answer, though it seems like the sort of thing someone else might know. White is such a good rim protecting guard, and it’d be interesting if Podz could achieve something remotely comparable by means less dependent on length and athleticism.
Just for comparison of a few guys that have done alright at a similar size without being shot creators themselves (minus Manu, just tossed him in with an edit after seeing the comments below). Yea Podz has a shorter wingspan but might be more stout.
Did I read that Podz is going to eliminate his baby-hook shot? You know, the one that looked unguardable but went in, like, once? I'm disappointed. I was sort of hoping he would spend all summer practicing it and make it a signature killer thing. But maybe the mechanics of that shot are just too hard? I'm guessing it's because you don't have the ball, the basket and your hand all in your field of view at the same time? Perhaps someone who knows about shooting can comment on this? And did he really imply he was going to eliminate floaters too? Are floaters somehow _harder_ than step-back midrange jumpers?
I'm curious to see how his shooting pans out since it wasn't particularly impressive in his rookie year. With that being said, I think where Podz is really going to make his bread and butter is in PASSING where he graded out in the 87th percentile.
Now we're talking! Rolling up my sleeves, got a lot of reading to do.
My one comment so far is a formatting suggestion: instead of "5 for [X]" I think it would be clearer and cleaner if you did something like [X] (5). Also, more consistent formatting in terms of capitalization (Top 15 vs top 15), some having "for" and others not, consistency of use of "ten" vs "10" etc would give it a little extra polish.
That's just nitpicking, I can tell how much work went into this so far and am really looking forward to the evolution of the series. Well done!
Looking at the NBA 75 from 2021, I was struck by the distribution of players over time. Seemed to be a bias here to balance the past and present. So I asked Perplexity to figure out this distribution. Here’s what it came up with:
“Analyzing the active years of the NBA 75 players, here's an approximate breakdown by decade:
1950s: 4 players (e.g., George Mikan)
1960s: 12 players (e.g., Bill Russell)
1970s: 18 players (e.g., Kareem Abdul-Jabbar)
1980s: 15 players (e.g., Magic Johnson)
1990s: 16 players (e.g., Michael Jordan)
2000s: 15 players (e.g., Kobe Bryant)
2010s: 11 players (e.g., LeBron James)
These numbers are approximations based on players' peak performance and influence in each decade.”
> Seemed to be a bias here to balance the past and present
I don't know why you would call it a "bias", but it was clearly their intent. As it should be, IMO. Obviously, over time you will have to either evict players from the list or bump the size (they chose the latter for the most part), but the greats of the past should not be excluded because the game has evolved since they played.
I basically agree, though it does skew things a little to have done the first list after 50 years, and the second after only 25 (without evicting anyone from the first list), because there was more play in terms of chronological distribution the first time around. Having only sixteen players from the first 25 years of the league meant there were more slots available to players from the 70’s, 80’s, and early 90’s than there were for more recent players.
Now here we go! I love EA’s tease that this would come out next week. Got us!
Super fun piece, real red meat for starving NBA carnivores. This first group of the worst of the best is such a fascinating and diverse mix of different styles/eras of players. I’m not utterly convinced by Tatum and Luka yet, but maybe, maybe. Very much looking forward to this series.
Now a request - I’m really curious about the ‘official’ top 75 guys who didn’t make this list. Who are they and what did they score? Is this in the plan?
It’s a great suggestion and I have asked DDS to write a wrap-up piece that talks about the near-misses, the might-makes and the difference from the NBA Top 75
I need to check the formula, but I don't see DRod or my cult fave Big Shot Bob Horry making the list despite his seven rings, for example. I think they both get knocked out by the "role player" qualifier on championships.
That's a fair point. The comparison is an interesting one... I made a very quick table that I think highlights a bit of an unfair bonus for Rodman versus Mutumbo:
Rodman/Mutumbo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chips 5/0
Runner Up 0/2
All NBA 2rd: 0/1
All NBA 3rd: 2/2
DPOY 2/4
All-Defense 1st: 7/3
All-Defense 2nd: 1/3
All Star 2/8
Rebounding Champ: 7/2
Blocks Champ: 0/3
Points: 6,683/11,729
PPG: 7.3/9.8
Rebounds 11,954/12,359
RPG: 13.1/10.3
Blocks: 531/3,289
BPG: 0.6/2.8
Assists: 1,600/1,240
APG: 1.8/1.0
The unfair part is the low number of All-Defense 1st team awards for Mutumbo. Because he's a center, the competition is much stiffer for the one slot for centers than for a forward like Rodman. He even won DPOY in a year he wasn't voted 1st team all defense! Which seems insane.
Mutumbo was not named to the NBA's 75th list and Rodman was, and I think you're right that it will be the same case here.
Sorry for being negative. I just had a quick gut reaction after really disagreeing with the first list.I was in the middle of a wild party and wasn’t thinking straight.😊
FYI from Woj:
Golden State Warriors star Stephen Curry has agreed on a one-year, $62.6 million extension that’ll keep him under contract through the 2026-2027 season, his agent Jeff Austin of Octagon tells ESPN.
For those who are counting, that means he’s under contract for three more years, after which he will be 39.
Can’t believe he’s not going to the lakers
The OT wholesome content you may or may not need today. Ohtani dog Decoy throws out first pitch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hNXCbSDBvc
I think it's pretty clear that Jrue Holiday was the "clear 3rd banana" for this year's Celtics and probably also for the Bucks title team. I like Jrue and think he's underrated, but he shouldn't get full credit for both those titles, which I'm sure would drop him down the list.
Also - fwiw, at first glance this system seems to overweight RINGS and underweight All-NBA and All-Star appearances.
Curious: What produces the insatiable desire to ‘rank’ players?
There are so many variables among players, eras, roster constructions, coaching, officiating (and more) that makes ranking based on consistent and comparable factors damn nearly impossible.
Many people seem to enjoy this type of content during this news-free season. I don't, mostly for the reasons you mention, which is why I choose not to partake.
I do, however, admire the amount of work and care that new contributor Duncan has devoted to this.
OT: I've finally had it with Xitter and migrated to Bluesky. It's pretty nice and still relatively civil, but so far I use it primarily for <forbidden topic>. Many of my former favorite follows from the bird app have also migrated, so I was able to construct a decent graph pretty quickly. Still looking for good Warriors-related accounts to follow. Anyone have any hints?
I tried Bluesky briefly but found no basketball content. I settled in at Threads as Eric_Apricot. Small but mostly positive NBA community.
This guy wins the internet today.
"FrenchFries120
•
12m ago
So you’re telling me Lauri’s trade value is Kuminga, Podz, Moody + all of our firsts and Steph Fucking Curry gets you Austin reaves, BEN SIMMONS, and 2 firsts… I swear who writes this shit"
https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1f3repb/bleacher_reports_idea_of_a_stephen_curry_trade/
Only way you trade steph is for a haul of picks. Otherwise, it makes no sense.
I mean to be fair this is just a trade scenario involved in trying to get Steph Curry to the Lakers. Theyve got nothing to offer other than those picks. A more realistic scenario is Curry playing out his contract and leaving as a FA or the Warriors making a trade for Lebron
The real question is whether we would root for the Lakers with Steph on the team.
Honestly, any team with Steph and LeBron would be basketball nirvana, and my fandom to the game supersedes loyalty to any team.
That said: it ain’t happening outside of some dark, twisted basketball fantasy world.
Steph could only go to the Lakers if he wanted to go there, and if that happened we'd know he was possessed by demons and needed an exorcism. No we would not root for that Lakers team.
During a moment of boredom today, I decided to see what the results would be with a very simple system of 10 pts for MVP, 5 pts for finals MVP, 1 pt for all star. The results actually weren't too bad at the top, though probably severely underrated defense (Draymond was nowhere to be found, maybe around #200). Maybe factoring in all team def would be good. But the thing I like about using only season-specific awards is that you kind of equalize against different strategies of different eras.
Cool approach. What if you rewarded defensive team honors (3/2/1 for 1st/2nd/3rd team), with multipliers/bonuses for getting defensive honors on championship years. (+2?)
Maybe that’s cherry picking Draymond to the top, but thinking of easy-to-implement checks.
Also curious what simply looking at All-NBA team honors gives you.
I've been saying for awhile that people over reacted against Westbrook in large part due to the stat padding. Early in his career he was a terrific athlete with elite drive and kick skills. Being surrounded by shooters like KD and Harden was the ideal situation for him. It wasn't Russ' fault that ownership decided to break up the band. The counter is that when older and not in that ideal situation, Russ wasn't a max contract guy but he still got one. All of a sudden there were a lot of PG's that could do what Russ could do and also shoot from the perimeter. Some of them even played a little defense and screened for their teammates.
If you go back and watch the 2016 WCF, he was a terror. But some of his bad habits went from minor issues to major problems when his shot stopped falling often enough.
He's going to the HOF for sure.
It's not really fair to include active players since Doncic, Tatum, and Westbrook are all at very different stages of their careers. Some actives may become top ten material while others have a career-destroying injury. For example, Klay?
I don't see a problem with it. Completely excluding guys like LeBron and Steph just because they are still playing seems unnecessary. The ranking essentially just captures if their career ends now, where would they fall. Guys like Luka are expected to rise significantly over time as long as they aren't suddenly afflicted with a career ending injury. As long as that expectation is understood (for example that Luka will very likely end his career much higher than he currently stands), I don't think it's a problem including active players.
If their accomplishments to date put them in the top 75, why wouldn’t you include them? At worst they end up ranking higher in a few years.
I think at some point some players should be considered for the top 100 (the next anniversary list) and not top 75.
Predictions for how many Warriors are going to make this list? 😅
10 (Steph, KD, Dray, CP3, Klay, Andre, Barry, Wilt, Arizin, Parrish)
I don't think Mullin, Richmond, or Hardaway make it.
Dray and Klay have the championships, but they had to share "top 3 player" during the KD years. And the individual accolades for Klay don't seem like quite enough. I'd be surprised if Andre makes it. I'm predicting only Dray makes it out of Dray + Klay + Andre.
EDIT: And if Klay doesn't make it to top 75 *again*??!? Haha
Klay is going to get a ton of points under this system for career 3pm, 3pm/game, playoffs 3pm and per game, finals 3pm and per game.
Yea I think I severely underestimated what gives BEAST points.
Klay & Dray won 2 championships as "Top 3" and I think they both end up getting credit for "3rd banana" in the 2x KD years. That's 100x points, just from championships won, which puts them above Jrue's 94 points without even going into the any of the other point categories.
Andre also won 4 chamipionships as a "clear major contributor" on 3 of them (35 points), one repeat (5 points), 5 straight Finals (10 points), and earning a FMVP to boot (20 points). That's 70 points already there. He needs 24 points from the rest of his resume to get past Jrue, and I think he gets there.
Ahhhh maybe I misunderstood the "3rd banana" rules.
EDIT: I thought it was to make an exception for the 25 mpg cutoff rather than to add a 4th player. Maybe Dr. Stein can clarify?
I'm a little surprised by Iguodala's situation here... since he only needs 24 more points to get past Holiday, and I'm confident that he covers that... but he's not listed yet, so it looks like he's over 117, and he'd need 47 to get above that, which sounds hard... but maybe he's got lots of "Top 30 Finals" leaderboard items?
Yea. There was another post about how we’re looking at roughly 10-15 players per decade. Iguodala seems marginal for the 2010’s…
Steph, Klay, Dray, KD, Lebron, Russ (stat pad), Harden (stat pad), Kawhi, Kyrie (stats) are the staples that come to mind. Maybe Chris Paul, PG. Wade straddles the decades, so maybe he’s on this shortened list. I can see a case both for and against Iguodala
He has additionally: 1 All-star (1 pt), 2 All-defensive (4 pts), 1 Olympic Gold (3 pts), 1 FIBA Gold (1 pt).
So only 9 in addition to the 70 you calculated above. I probably missed a few top 30 things but I can't imagine that makes up the difference.
Andre has some Olympic success, IIRC. However, I would be surprised if he is in at 70 or below.
Yea I'm just looking at Walton (#77) and that MVP (20 pts) and Finals MVP (15 pts) feel like it'd be hard to overcome via some of the smaller accolades (yes, the extra championships will help... but the value of two of them will be less than "top 3 player"), especially since Walton had a bunch of his own accolades as well (NCAA included).
Podziemski quotes from Slater:
[[
“From a fan perspective, from a media perspective, there is this looking at the front office kind of crazy,” Podziemski said. “Like, ‘You didn’t make any trades? You want to keep Brandin? Why him?’ There are questions that obviously the public and the media has. I see my fair share of it. It’s cool, and it’s not. It’s cool to see you’re valued by another organization in the NBA for such a good player like Markkanen. But at the same time, now that the trade didn’t go through, people on social media look at it like it’s my fault. I don’t have anything to do with it. But it’s cool.”
“I think for me, anything in life, if you do something good, with good comes expectation,” Podziemski said. “I mean, I won’t go into games thinking about it. I just know what I’ve done all offseason. I know how much better of a player I’m going to be. Obviously, I have expectations for myself to perform. This is my job. But I don’t think there’s any nervousness to exceed expectations. I’m just going to be me.”
]]
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5705669/2024/08/28/brandin-podziemski-warriors-lauri-markkanen/
Article says the Warriors want him taking 8-10 threes a game next season. Let's hope he's actually a good enough shooter to warrant that because the 63% FT percentage last season was pretty concerning. I assume the coaching staff is also going to ask him to become more of a creator since they don't have any of that on the roster other than Curry, let's hope he's capable of doing that because he had some really ugly sequences last season trying to initiate against set defenses (he's good at pushing the pace though at least).
They are putting a lot on this kid's shoulders, he's obviously not going to say no but that doesn't mean he's capable of doing it. I'd be more encouraged by this if they had a bunch of other options and they chose to give this to Podz anyway, but I can't help but wonder if they are increasing his role this much because they have no one else.
More than a few Dubs fans wonder if a) rookies and young players are hesitant to shoot in a system that constantly looks for a ‘great’ shots (Steph) rather than a ‘good’ shots (everyone else), or b) rookies and young players haven’t developed the shot or gained the confidence from the coach and starters to let it fly.
Of course, it’s a combination of the two factors. But the green light is definitely on for Pods and his shot this season. Haven’t heard the same about Kuminga despite his flashy summer training videos…
I don't think Kuminga should get that green light for iffy jump shots. I think the coaches have wanted him to take those only if wide open, but otherwise create advantages mostly with drives and either finish at the rim or dish to someone open. If he gets a catch and shoot that's even slightly contested, he can probably beat that defender off the dribble, that's a better play for him.
Podz has consistently exceeded expectations, seems like they are pushing him to see what he can do. The ballhandling is the thing that worries me the most, we just don't have anyone else other than Steph on the team I really trust when the pressure ratchets up.
Melton might be part of the answer.
Draymond?
He’s amazing bringing the ball up the floor pushing the pace, but not really a guy you want handling the ball during a double team, beating guys off the dribble, etc.
If Podz takes a leap defensively and can adequately guard the other teams best guard (within reason not expecting him to shut down Morant) while on the floor with Steph, then ill know hes the real deal going forward because of him truly prioritizing his game defensively this offseason
I know Podz has and is continuing to take a bit of indirect criticism from some fans online due to ownership’s unwillingness to include him in a trade but as ive said on here, Podz has the best homegrown feel for the game since we drafted Draymond. Thats over a decade. Cant just be willing to trade all that away especially when you would have still needed to trade picks to further erode team post Steph.
I don't think he has the tools (size, quickness) to ever be the primary perimeter defender. If he can just guard his position well, and do a reasonable job against wings, I'm good. He's already shown he can hold his own against bigs some.
Podz is the same height (with 20 extra pounds) as Alex Caruso.
If I was going to design the ideal NBA player by Frankensteining parts of different players in a lab, I’d seriously consider using Podz’ mentality. Dude really seems to have the right approach to being the best player he can be.
I love Podz... but I'd still take Steph. The guy is never satisfied and works as hard as anyone.
I’m using Steph’s hand-eye coordination, which to me is his ultimate superpower.
Steph is a cheat code for that exercise though... the easy answer is: Steph's everything in Giannis's body
Yeah, using Steph is like reprogramming the Kobayashi Maru simulation ...
Great article. It's always really interesting to read about how players are watching film and studying their own mistakes - and then working to fix them. It's such a positive way to improve, and so challenging for nearly anyone to accept this kind of continuous criticism without getting upset.
I didn’t quote that since it’s an old quote but my favorite part is him discussing his film work and plans for improvement.
I know Podz is going to be a staple in this league but I honestly have no idea what his ceiling is.
Depends on if he can figure out how to create shots off of the dribble or not. At his size the "connective" stuff only goes so far, he needs to be an initiator to really max out.
Being able to create is always going to be a very good skill... but size-wise, here are some comparisons (from nba.com):
Player / Height / Weight / Age
Podz / 6'4" / 205 lbs / 21
Derrick White / 6'4" / 190 lbs / 30
Alex Caruso / 6'5" / 186 lbs / 30
Jason Kidd / 6'4" / 210 lbs / 40 (when he retired)
Manu / 6'6" / 205 lbs / 40 (when he retired)
Not sure what this comparison is intended to state? Also all of those dudes besides Caruso have at least a few inches of wingspan on Podz, and Caruso is decidedly below the other three in overall impact precisely because he's very offensively limited.
One question this prompts for me, specifically with regards to the Derrick White comp: Is charge-drawing properly thought of as a form of rim protection? And if so, how does it compare to shot blocking in terms of a) value and b) repeatability season over season?
I don’t know the answer, though it seems like the sort of thing someone else might know. White is such a good rim protecting guard, and it’d be interesting if Podz could achieve something remotely comparable by means less dependent on length and athleticism.
Just for comparison of a few guys that have done alright at a similar size without being shot creators themselves (minus Manu, just tossed him in with an edit after seeing the comments below). Yea Podz has a shorter wingspan but might be more stout.
Did I read that Podz is going to eliminate his baby-hook shot? You know, the one that looked unguardable but went in, like, once? I'm disappointed. I was sort of hoping he would spend all summer practicing it and make it a signature killer thing. But maybe the mechanics of that shot are just too hard? I'm guessing it's because you don't have the ball, the basket and your hand all in your field of view at the same time? Perhaps someone who knows about shooting can comment on this? And did he really imply he was going to eliminate floaters too? Are floaters somehow _harder_ than step-back midrange jumpers?
I'm curious to see how his shooting pans out since it wasn't particularly impressive in his rookie year. With that being said, I think where Podz is really going to make his bread and butter is in PASSING where he graded out in the 87th percentile.
Passing to whom?
Other than Steph (and Hield to a lesser extent), who do the Dubs have that can catch-and-shoot a high percentage *and* at reasonable volume?
How about cutters though?
Manu Ginobli?
Ginobili should have been on the Top 75 list imo, I don't think Podz has much of a chance of getting to that level
But with a better 3pt shot, and a less silky layup package...
I think Podz is built more solidly, especially if you look at Manu at a similar age.
Now we're talking! Rolling up my sleeves, got a lot of reading to do.
My one comment so far is a formatting suggestion: instead of "5 for [X]" I think it would be clearer and cleaner if you did something like [X] (5). Also, more consistent formatting in terms of capitalization (Top 15 vs top 15), some having "for" and others not, consistency of use of "ten" vs "10" etc would give it a little extra polish.
That's just nitpicking, I can tell how much work went into this so far and am really looking forward to the evolution of the series. Well done!
Looking at the NBA 75 from 2021, I was struck by the distribution of players over time. Seemed to be a bias here to balance the past and present. So I asked Perplexity to figure out this distribution. Here’s what it came up with:
“Analyzing the active years of the NBA 75 players, here's an approximate breakdown by decade:
1950s: 4 players (e.g., George Mikan)
1960s: 12 players (e.g., Bill Russell)
1970s: 18 players (e.g., Kareem Abdul-Jabbar)
1980s: 15 players (e.g., Magic Johnson)
1990s: 16 players (e.g., Michael Jordan)
2000s: 15 players (e.g., Kobe Bryant)
2010s: 11 players (e.g., LeBron James)
These numbers are approximations based on players' peak performance and influence in each decade.”
> Seemed to be a bias here to balance the past and present
I don't know why you would call it a "bias", but it was clearly their intent. As it should be, IMO. Obviously, over time you will have to either evict players from the list or bump the size (they chose the latter for the most part), but the greats of the past should not be excluded because the game has evolved since they played.
I basically agree, though it does skew things a little to have done the first list after 50 years, and the second after only 25 (without evicting anyone from the first list), because there was more play in terms of chronological distribution the first time around. Having only sixteen players from the first 25 years of the league meant there were more slots available to players from the 70’s, 80’s, and early 90’s than there were for more recent players.
It’s even worse because the league got bigger. Same problem with All Star/NBA et all.
Now here we go! I love EA’s tease that this would come out next week. Got us!
Super fun piece, real red meat for starving NBA carnivores. This first group of the worst of the best is such a fascinating and diverse mix of different styles/eras of players. I’m not utterly convinced by Tatum and Luka yet, but maybe, maybe. Very much looking forward to this series.
Now a request - I’m really curious about the ‘official’ top 75 guys who didn’t make this list. Who are they and what did they score? Is this in the plan?
It’s a great suggestion and I have asked DDS to write a wrap-up piece that talks about the near-misses, the might-makes and the difference from the NBA Top 75
We know Dame Lillard didn't make it. I'm going to guess the following won't as well:
- Willis Reed (no built-in New York bias, the famous Willis Reed game won't get points)
- Dennis Rodman (despite great defense, his offense was too lacking. lots of career success but none as top three player)
Not based on any real deep analysis, mind you...
In general, it will be interesting to see how the BEAST weighs success over the ages and if that results in a similar list of old timers or not.
Rodman is in and will be high because of how much this weights championships - he's gonna get like 120+ points from those alone.
I need to check the formula, but I don't see DRod or my cult fave Big Shot Bob Horry making the list despite his seven rings, for example. I think they both get knocked out by the "role player" qualifier on championships.
Re: Dennis Rodman. Mutombo made it as essentially a defense-only guy with much less team success
That's a fair point. The comparison is an interesting one... I made a very quick table that I think highlights a bit of an unfair bonus for Rodman versus Mutumbo:
Rodman/Mutumbo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chips 5/0
Runner Up 0/2
All NBA 2rd: 0/1
All NBA 3rd: 2/2
DPOY 2/4
All-Defense 1st: 7/3
All-Defense 2nd: 1/3
All Star 2/8
Rebounding Champ: 7/2
Blocks Champ: 0/3
Points: 6,683/11,729
PPG: 7.3/9.8
Rebounds 11,954/12,359
RPG: 13.1/10.3
Blocks: 531/3,289
BPG: 0.6/2.8
Assists: 1,600/1,240
APG: 1.8/1.0
The unfair part is the low number of All-Defense 1st team awards for Mutumbo. Because he's a center, the competition is much stiffer for the one slot for centers than for a forward like Rodman. He even won DPOY in a year he wasn't voted 1st team all defense! Which seems insane.
Mutumbo was not named to the NBA's 75th list and Rodman was, and I think you're right that it will be the same case here.
> He even won DPOY in a year he wasn't voted 1st team all defense! Which seems insane.
OK that's just dumb... I'm guessing we've never had MVPs that weren't 1st team All-NBA.
Yeah, really. Here's the accolades for 1995: https://www.espn.com/nba/history/awards/_/year/1995
All-NBA Defense 1st team: Mookie Blaylock, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, Dennis Rodman
Here's the voting for DPOY: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1995.html#dpoy
Mutumbo had 45 points, David Robinson who was 1st team all-defense had 12. Awards back then were really funny sometimes...
"They're both so good! We have to recognize both somehow! I know, we'll give DPOY to one guy and First Team All Defense to the other guy!"
I think this isn’t too much of a spoiler to say at least one of your guesses ends up in the Top 75ish.
Rodman is my guess.
Sorry for being negative. I just had a quick gut reaction after really disagreeing with the first list.I was in the middle of a wild party and wasn’t thinking straight.😊
I deleted the post.