I find the whole thing very bizarre, but it's an interesting experiment to see if the USA will accept European soccer style seasons, with multiple trophies to be won.
The whole thing could fall flat on it's face, though. They've incentivized coaches to play their regular lineups for the tourney, since the games also count in the standings. But I believe the last game (two games?) to determine the shampionship are not part of the regular season standings. I could see somebody like Pop deciding to rest his starters and take the L in that game.
Well, I do think that other than the die hard fans, most people don't watch NBA until Xmas. They are trying to get teams and fans to care about games early in the season. Not sure this is it, but since they are playing those games anyway, I'm okay with them giving it a try. I was not a fan of the play-in at first, but that has worked out okay.
Aug 15, 2023·edited Aug 15, 2023Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
re: Rebounds. That last vid you posted vs. the NOP. That first rebounds was pure hustle, but that second rebound. That was a thing of beauty and is worth studying for a moment.
0:10. Poole heaves, and Valunciunas, who btw, is 6'11", 265 lbs, boxes Looney out towards the left break.
0:11 Loon starts edging towards the top of the key, and Val feels it, so as the ball comes in towards the hoop, V leans his right shoulder towards the top of the key to cut Loon off in that direction.
0:12 JP's brick is short, bouncing off the front of the rim back towards the right side of the top of the key. Loon places his hand near the back of Val's jersey. *** What's happening here? ***
Val seems to take an extra step towards the right side of the basket, then realize he overstepped, and arches back for the rebound. Meanwhile, Loon is tracking the rebound, and reaches out towards the top of the key and limberly grabs the ball with one hand, two hands.
0:13 Loon dribbles and passes to Steph for the automatic.
So, did Loon push Valanciunas? Maybe? I dunno. If he did, it was minor enough that the refs didn't see or call it. Maybe he just gave him a little helpful nudge in the direction he was already going, or maybe the angle is weird, and he didn't touch him at all. Regardless, even if he did, it's probably gentle enough to count as jostling for position.
But the rebound itself, what a thing of beauty. To be totally out of position and boxed out, to be able to jostle and get the opposing center to react to your jostling just enough that he's now out of position, and thereby create a clear path to the ball. Then to be quick enough to react and reach towards where the ball will be in the future (which it should be pointed out was farther from where Loon was at the moment the ball hit the rim than it was for opposing players). From the video angle, it looked like there were possibly three Pelicans who could've grabbed that board if Loon had been a touch slower or less lengthy.
That rebound encapsulates Loon's unique rebounding prowess. The BBIQ to know where the ball might go, the ability to jostle for position in an intelligent manner, and the quick twitch read and react on where the ball will be going to grab it out of the air at the perfect time.
He actually had games of 23, 22, 21, 20, *and* 18 rebounds in last year's playoffs. But the most iconic one is definitely the Game 7 v SAC in which he dominated Domas and extended possession after possession with the season on the line (and finished with a line of 11 pts (4-5 fg), 21 rebounds, 4 assists, 0 turnovers, and a +25).
Speaking of bad takes, this was my ‘bad take’ after we got through drafting Patrick Baldwin Jr in 2022
JZAlvarado
Jun 23, 2022
Wanted Jaden Hardy.
Folks at this point I should be getting paid by the Warriors front office. I just happened to remember this take cause I was just listening to Duncd On Basketball podcast revisiting the 2022 offseason and this is the only move they gave the Mavericks positive marks on 🤗
Aug 15, 2023Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
I have many Warriors shirts but they're mostly team based--never bought a jersey because I couldn't choose. But in 2022-23 I bought a #5 jersey. From the days he was obviously playing in pain to the present he has worked to add to his skill set, increase his efficiency, and even his durability. Inspiring.
Absolutely this, and it can't be Dray or any guy under 6'7". I had hopes for JMG at the outset, but he just gave silly touch fouls for and-1s. Tough to find a vet min on a 1-year contract who's willing to make enemies.
Gross news like Montrezl tearing his ACL, or even mildly worrisome news like Porzingis leaving Team Latvia with plantar fasciitis, definitely makes you wanna knock wood for our guys (I just did).
Who is offering anything valuable for Harden at this point? This will surely go down in flames. Fat suit. PPV special boxing match Morey vs Harden. Embiid unfollowing him on Twitter. The whole package.
True. But maybe we basketball fans should thank Ben Simmons, Kyrie Irving, KD, James Harden, and the Minnesota Timberwolves for keeping things interesting by making dumb demands and bad deals in the off-season. They're certainly doing everything they can to raise the profile of the NBA during these dog days of summer.
For basketball I’ve been watching the FIBA exhibition games, the WNBA, will watch the WNBA commissioners cup, and will watch the FIBA games. Maybe there’s a way to watch Team Croatia So far August has been pretty interesting and my team, the Liberty, have been romping over the rest of the WNBA.
Harden and CP3 might be similarly unlikeable when not on the Warriors, but when you have Harden on your team you are in a much worse spot than with CP3, who seems to be a total pro.
I have the same impression, but why? Is Harden really fat? Does he go clubbing more than other NBA players not named Stephan Curry? Is his on-court Sabotage really egregious? Or does he just have a bad rap because he's a ball-hogging, foul-baiting, playoff blah who complains when more worthy people beat him for MVP?
Thanks for coming up with the stats. I thought those numbers had been floated out there at some point. Making the second unit more efficient and consistent is the primary issue. I think this team will be fine. Thanks for taking time to pull the numbers.....
Aug 14, 2023·edited Aug 14, 2023Liked by Daniel Hardee
I think the Dubs clearly know Looney's value. Given that he has twice been a free agent and never received a better offer than the relatively modest ones from the Dubs, it could be argued that the majority of league front offices also don't value Looney correctly. Of course, maybe they just underestimate the value of JOGA.
> it could be argued that the majority of league front offices also don't value Looney correctly.
Or, they correctly realize that they want or need more scoring from the center position, for whatever reason. Maybe their offense is not the same as the Dubs. Maybe they believe fans like the center to make alley-oop dunks and that's not Looney's game. Maybe they think they will sell more tickets if their center makes highlight reel blocks. They would not be wrong, in such cases, to be unwilling to pay Looney enough to attract him away from the Dubs.
There are not an infinite number of paths to basketball success, but surely there are more paths than only 1.
I don't know. Every team has certain tasks that have to be accomplished based on 1)the team's offensive philosophy, 2)the team's defensive philosophy, and 3)the particular strengths and limitations of the personnel. Historically, teams have expected more scoring out of the center position. And, historically, they have expected more shot-blocking. But different teams tweak those expectations. Just because a fan thinks that Looney is great doesn't mean they "know" basketball, and just because a fan thinks the team could use some more scoring from the center position doesn't mean they don't know basketball. Those takes will depend on what we all see on the court PLUS each fan's view of 1)what they enjoy watching and 2)how to sustain winning.
I wouldn't say that people who think all we need is Looney in the middle don't know basketball. I'd say we disagree in whether Looney and similarly non-scorers at the center position will work in the playoffs. Looking at last year, the evidence says "No," even in the 3-point era. I think that evidence is important. But it does not mean that people who disagree with me "don't know basketball."
What ChemKoala said. The last title year the Dubs had Bjeli and OPJ supplying front court points (and, in fact, pulling the opponent out into space). Bjeli and OPJ are gone and JMG/Lamb didn't take up the slack. If anything, the title year offers even more support for my contention.
That said, there are multiple ways to win. But, still, I think we can all agree that opponents' ability to defend declines as the number of players they have to worry about scoring increases, all else equal. And this is especially true when the new additional points come from a source previously untapped, and, thus, now occupies a defender who had been able to help but now no longer can.
I mean, we also had a stretch 5 in Bjeli, no? Do we think someone would pay Looney more if he wasn't as dominant on the glass, but he had Bjeli's shooting? What's the exchange rate between Looney's skills and flashier ones?
I think I broadly agree with PG here that Looney's offensive limitations cap how many ways he can fit a team, which will reduce his FA market. I personally think Looney is undervalued, but I don't think every other FO is dumb, and they all passed on offering Looney enough to leave.
Yeah, I think if you say Looney is an average backup or "not that good" you aren't watching many Warrior games. I'm thinking of some twitter/real life loud mouths in particular.
One of my favorite memories in the Dubs-Kings series was early on when Sabonis got the ball in the post against Loon. He pump fakes and Looney doesn't move. He pump fakes again and Looney doesn't move. Then he throws up a weak shot falling away that barely draws iron.
A rarity I know, but Ive had a handful of bad takes on here over the years (GSOM/ESPN included). by far the worst take Ive ever had was saying the Warriors blew that 2015 draft by drafting Looney over Osman. Looney is up there IMO along with Draymond and Gilbert Arenas in Warriors late pick draft history lore
Not disagreeing but its not the gulf that i once thought it was and its not a gulf by any stretch now. Osman would provide some solid bench minutes. Just think Looney gives us everything we need from
The 5. Id still like to see a big big just to take some hits from the Nurkics and Valanciunas while saving Looney for
I wish both Moodys the best. I never wish someone (Wiseman included) folly at the expense of our success BUT when everyone is wanting Moody traded for Paul George (or outright released cause there is precious little medium ground with this or any fanbase) I’ll refer back to this tweet
Let it be known that I'd love Paul George on the Warriors lol. I don't see how trading Moody for George would vindicate a take that GR3 is better though.
Regardless I don't bring up old takes often, I'm just noting it like I noted when someone mid-season said they'd take Anthony Lamb over Moody going forward. The Moody Mafia doesn't forget.
If GR3 is good enough to make this squad, he’ll be good enough to take most of Moodys minutes. As i told Sleepy though, just don’t think any player taking such a long layoff like him and Waiters can positively impact rotation minutes. This is why we need to expand by 3 teams: Seattle, Las Vegas, KC
Why would the Warriors be bringing in GR3 and why would GR3 be signing with the Warriors if hes just end of the bench fodder. Hed have to be brought in to provide rotation depth. Who else would he be taking minutes from other than Moody. If they want end of the bench depth then just sign Quinones. Again though i dont think he’s good enough at this point. If i could get early 2020 GR3 yeah id take him this year over Moody. I just dont think we are getting that type of player
I am a huge Looney fan for all the reasons pointed out in the article. Yet I think it fair when praising a player to take a look at weaknesses as well as strengths. I think as a Warrior fan I've become accustomed to the idea that we're just not going to get much of a scoring threat at the 5. (Which is pretty remarkable because we also don't from Draymond.) Whenever Looney makes or even takes a jumper (if that's the word) my jaw drops. That's pretty remarkable in an era when big men shoot better than ever. I'll also say that although I love his offensive rebounding, it does come in an era with two changes that help explain why he leads the league. One change is big men playing on the perimeter, so it's hard to crash the boards. Another is some teams encouraging hustling back on D after a shot goes up and conceding the rebound.
Looney has become an integral key piece for the Warriors. But I wouldn't put him in the top 10 centers in the league. Which is fine, because at the outset of his career I wouldn't have thought I'd even consider the question. His injury recovery and overall improvement have been outstanding.
All of the following have a strong case that they're better overall than Looney. I concede that each has weaknesses and that Looney's strengths tend to fly under the radar and go unappreciated.
Still, my list might be something like: Embiid, Jokic, Sabonis, Adebayo, B. Lopez, Ayton (yeah I said it) KAT (yeah I said it again), Porzingis, Vucevich, Valanciunas, JJJ if he's a center, Myles Turner if you can ignore off court issues, Zubac, Jarrett Allen.
To me, there's probably 7-8 guys who are definitely better (Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, AD, Adebayo, Lopez, JJJ, Ayton), and a bunch of dudes who are basically in the same tier as Loon with different strengths & weaknesses... but who's strengths are sexier and get them paid... and then run off the floor in the post season.
AD, Rudy Gobert, Robert Williams, etc. Looney is certainly not a top ten center in the NBA. He's a perfect match of skillset and role for the Warriors, but I don't think we need to exaggerate beyond that.
Wembanyama's gonna be interesting... his center of gravity is so high, so he'll absolutely get pushed around... but his arms are so long, so it might not even matter that he gets pushed out of position...
The correct comparison is not how many O-boards Loon has compared to other centers, it is how many O-boards does he have vs. how many D-boards do they have. I don't know the answer to that question, but when Loon is trying to get an O-board the opponent can only try to get a D-board.
I totally see your point, but it depends a bit on context. Asher was saying that some factors in Loon leading the league in O-boards were many talented big men being on the perimeter (and thus not having good position for O boards) and teams getting back on D instead of going for O-boards. I'm saying that those factors affect everyone who goes for O-boards and Loon is still the best at it.
However, to your point, while I don't have statistics, the eye test shows me Loon outworking, out position, and beating up opposing players in order to get boards on both sides of the ball so I'm not sure what numeric statistic would measure your comparison , but i feel pretty good about Looney's standings in it when you come up with it.
> However, to your point, while I don't have statistics, the eye test shows me Loon outworking, out position, and beating up opposing players in order to get boards on both sides of the ball so I'm not sure what numeric statistic would measure your comparison , but i feel pretty good about Looney's standings in it when you come up with it.
I now see YOUR point. I guess my post was motivated not just by your post, but also by the refusal of tv coverage to do very simple things that would be majorly informative. Like, at the end of the half, instead of showing us "Rebounds" they could show us
Teams...............When Team A Missed.........................When Team B Missed
Team A....................# O-Boards..............................................# D-Boards
Team B.....................# D-Boards..............................................# O-Boards
I try to do this myself but the info I need usually leaves the screen too quickly.
It is all contextual. For example, I think if they said to Embiid: forget your face up game, your perimeter game, just let harden attack and your job is to get offensive rebounds, he'd crush Looney's numbers. That's OK, Embiid is MVP caliber. Looney is outstanding at using what he's got and learning and improving and fitting to the system. He's gotten really good at offensive rebounds, but I do think the context helps.
And this is why many of us were excited by Wiseman and are also excited by the new guy. Looney is great, but what if we could have all that PLUS a vertical threat? What about all that, a vertical threat, AND a short-hook/mid-range game the player is willing to use? What about all that, a vertical threat, a short hook/mid-range game, handles enough to go coast-to-coast, AND the occasional 3? If the coach would use such a player right, it would only multiply the challenges opponents face defending the Dubs. This may not matter as much in the regular season, but we just saw that it matters in the playoffs. How would the Lakers' series have gone if the Dubs had actual scoring threats in the front court, so they didn't HAVE to take 3's almost every possession?
This is what had us excited about another center. 'Cause Looneys GREAT--but he is now and has been in the past far more replaceable than Dray. So if we want that production, it has to come from Looney's spot--either Looney himself growing into that, or some replacement.
I think the point of the article is that it's not so easy to "have all that" let alone all that and then some more.
It's not the Warriors system that makes Looney who he is. It helps, but Loon's own personal traits matter. His mentality, his experience, his willingness to play from the bench or the starting lineup, his nose for the ball... Some of those traits are hard to see, or quantify—is his discipline in not falling for pump fakes even possible for other guys to achieve?
But the Dubs have had a lot of guys fail to achieve what Looney's done for multiple seasons now. Even someone like, Giannis who's a damn good defender, a better scorer than Loon, and also a fun personality, but did he lead the league in O-rebs? Nah, Loon did. How about AST/TOV? Yeah, Loon was about 5:1 while Giannis was less than 1.5:1. No one beats Loon across the board(s).
Put some respect on the man: Loon is uniquely good at his role and we're blessed to have him.
Asher: > The best center under 6'9" in league history is GPII.
SabWrites: > Draymond.
1x Rookie of the Year :-) , 1x MVP--HIS ROOKIE YEAR!!! :O! , 1x Finals MVP, 5x NBA All-Star, 1x NBA Champion, Hall of Fame Center Wes Unseld (6'7") would like a word.
Looney is the Dark Knight
In-season Tournament Schedule has been released: https://www.nba.com/in-season-tournament/2023/schedule
11/03/23: Warriors @ Thunder 8pm ET
11/14/23: Timberwolves @ Warriors 10pm ET
11/24/23: Spurs @ Warriors 10pm ET
11/28/23: Warriors @ Kings 10pm ET
The Warriors play on both the first and last days of the regularly-scheduled tournament games.
I find the whole thing very bizarre, but it's an interesting experiment to see if the USA will accept European soccer style seasons, with multiple trophies to be won.
The whole thing could fall flat on it's face, though. They've incentivized coaches to play their regular lineups for the tourney, since the games also count in the standings. But I believe the last game (two games?) to determine the shampionship are not part of the regular season standings. I could see somebody like Pop deciding to rest his starters and take the L in that game.
We want relegation!
I wasn’t expecting such large breaks between games in this “tournament”.
Seriously, I am so confused as to what the point of this is (outside of money of course).
Well, I do think that other than the die hard fans, most people don't watch NBA until Xmas. They are trying to get teams and fans to care about games early in the season. Not sure this is it, but since they are playing those games anyway, I'm okay with them giving it a try. I was not a fan of the play-in at first, but that has worked out okay.
I still think they should have made it a Divisional Cup, think that would have had more pull than "random groups of random teams"
I haven't read anything to indicate they would shorten the regular season though.
Will the in-season games count as regular season games?
Yes, except the final.
Also, those nights are tourney exclusive, so they won't have any non tourney games in the Tuesday and Friday nights
re: Rebounds. That last vid you posted vs. the NOP. That first rebounds was pure hustle, but that second rebound. That was a thing of beauty and is worth studying for a moment.
0:10. Poole heaves, and Valunciunas, who btw, is 6'11", 265 lbs, boxes Looney out towards the left break.
0:11 Loon starts edging towards the top of the key, and Val feels it, so as the ball comes in towards the hoop, V leans his right shoulder towards the top of the key to cut Loon off in that direction.
0:12 JP's brick is short, bouncing off the front of the rim back towards the right side of the top of the key. Loon places his hand near the back of Val's jersey. *** What's happening here? ***
Val seems to take an extra step towards the right side of the basket, then realize he overstepped, and arches back for the rebound. Meanwhile, Loon is tracking the rebound, and reaches out towards the top of the key and limberly grabs the ball with one hand, two hands.
0:13 Loon dribbles and passes to Steph for the automatic.
So, did Loon push Valanciunas? Maybe? I dunno. If he did, it was minor enough that the refs didn't see or call it. Maybe he just gave him a little helpful nudge in the direction he was already going, or maybe the angle is weird, and he didn't touch him at all. Regardless, even if he did, it's probably gentle enough to count as jostling for position.
But the rebound itself, what a thing of beauty. To be totally out of position and boxed out, to be able to jostle and get the opposing center to react to your jostling just enough that he's now out of position, and thereby create a clear path to the ball. Then to be quick enough to react and reach towards where the ball will be in the future (which it should be pointed out was farther from where Loon was at the moment the ball hit the rim than it was for opposing players). From the video angle, it looked like there were possibly three Pelicans who could've grabbed that board if Loon had been a touch slower or less lengthy.
That rebound encapsulates Loon's unique rebounding prowess. The BBIQ to know where the ball might go, the ability to jostle for position in an intelligent manner, and the quick twitch read and react on where the ball will be going to grab it out of the air at the perfect time.
So I guess we should have E1R's now? This was fantastic.
"E21R"?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202304300SAC.html
He actually had games of 23, 22, 21, 20, *and* 18 rebounds in last year's playoffs. But the most iconic one is definitely the Game 7 v SAC in which he dominated Domas and extended possession after possession with the season on the line (and finished with a line of 11 pts (4-5 fg), 21 rebounds, 4 assists, 0 turnovers, and a +25).
Edit: agreed, incredible stuff from Being!!
Thx to both of you.
Speaking of bad takes, this was my ‘bad take’ after we got through drafting Patrick Baldwin Jr in 2022
JZAlvarado
Jun 23, 2022
Wanted Jaden Hardy.
Folks at this point I should be getting paid by the Warriors front office. I just happened to remember this take cause I was just listening to Duncd On Basketball podcast revisiting the 2022 offseason and this is the only move they gave the Mavericks positive marks on 🤗
You were cooking
I have many Warriors shirts but they're mostly team based--never bought a jersey because I couldn't choose. But in 2022-23 I bought a #5 jersey. From the days he was obviously playing in pain to the present he has worked to add to his skill set, increase his efficiency, and even his durability. Inspiring.
https://theathletic.com/4747170/2023/08/14/nba-player-tiers-klay-thompson-jordan-poole/?source=user_shared_article
Seth Partnow NBA player tiers:
TIER 5A: Klay, JP3, LoonDawg, GP2
Tier 4: Chris Paul and Andrew Wiggins
https://theathletic.com/4768667/2023/08/15/nba-player-tiers-victor-wembanyama/?source=user_shared_article
No longer subscribe. Where is Curry now?
not yet released. I'm sure he's still tier 1A, among the top 3-7 players in the game.
>> but I think the Dubs need an ‘enforcer’
Absolutely this, and it can't be Dray or any guy under 6'7". I had hopes for JMG at the outset, but he just gave silly touch fouls for and-1s. Tough to find a vet min on a 1-year contract who's willing to make enemies.
I ❤️ Lunchbox Looney
https://twitter.com/GSWReddit/status/1691187327488659461
That Šarić guy in Team Croatia’s two Olympic qualifiers combined (v Netherlands and v Belgium)
26 pts on 9-17 fg
7 rebounds
11 assists (!)
4 steals
2 blocks
+57 (!!!)
Just, please, stay healthy and don’t get injured.
For sure — and that goes for all of our players!
Gross news like Montrezl tearing his ACL, or even mildly worrisome news like Porzingis leaving Team Latvia with plantar fasciitis, definitely makes you wanna knock wood for our guys (I just did).
Who is offering anything valuable for Harden at this point? This will surely go down in flames. Fat suit. PPV special boxing match Morey vs Harden. Embiid unfollowing him on Twitter. The whole package.
He is utterly delusional.
True. But maybe we basketball fans should thank Ben Simmons, Kyrie Irving, KD, James Harden, and the Minnesota Timberwolves for keeping things interesting by making dumb demands and bad deals in the off-season. They're certainly doing everything they can to raise the profile of the NBA during these dog days of summer.
I would watch a team VS. team backgammon exhibition at this point.
Let’s play some fuckin BALL already
For basketball I’ve been watching the FIBA exhibition games, the WNBA, will watch the WNBA commissioners cup, and will watch the FIBA games. Maybe there’s a way to watch Team Croatia So far August has been pretty interesting and my team, the Liberty, have been romping over the rest of the WNBA.
I just want to take a moment to sincerely thank God that this guy isn't a Warrior. What a nightmare he is.
As for trading for him, I can't see it, but then, I never thought teams would want Russell Westbrook either, and a bunch of them have.
Harden and CP3 might be similarly unlikeable when not on the Warriors, but when you have Harden on your team you are in a much worse spot than with CP3, who seems to be a total pro.
Whatever hangups we have on CP3, he's yet to act with this blend of toxic tomfoolery
I have the same impression, but why? Is Harden really fat? Does he go clubbing more than other NBA players not named Stephan Curry? Is his on-court Sabotage really egregious? Or does he just have a bad rap because he's a ball-hogging, foul-baiting, playoff blah who complains when more worthy people beat him for MVP?
Yeah, he's the goat. Maybe a tech company should hire him to disrupt the team morale industry
Thanks for coming up with the stats. I thought those numbers had been floated out there at some point. Making the second unit more efficient and consistent is the primary issue. I think this team will be fine. Thanks for taking time to pull the numbers.....
Replies can be your friends...but you have to invite them in first...
Invite them how? ;-) I am willing just not tech saavy
So I shouldn't use the comment box? Totally confused.
You can really tell who knows and watches basketball based on their view of Looney.
I think the Dubs clearly know Looney's value. Given that he has twice been a free agent and never received a better offer than the relatively modest ones from the Dubs, it could be argued that the majority of league front offices also don't value Looney correctly. Of course, maybe they just underestimate the value of JOGA.
> it could be argued that the majority of league front offices also don't value Looney correctly.
Or, they correctly realize that they want or need more scoring from the center position, for whatever reason. Maybe their offense is not the same as the Dubs. Maybe they believe fans like the center to make alley-oop dunks and that's not Looney's game. Maybe they think they will sell more tickets if their center makes highlight reel blocks. They would not be wrong, in such cases, to be unwilling to pay Looney enough to attract him away from the Dubs.
There are not an infinite number of paths to basketball success, but surely there are more paths than only 1.
I don't know. Every team has certain tasks that have to be accomplished based on 1)the team's offensive philosophy, 2)the team's defensive philosophy, and 3)the particular strengths and limitations of the personnel. Historically, teams have expected more scoring out of the center position. And, historically, they have expected more shot-blocking. But different teams tweak those expectations. Just because a fan thinks that Looney is great doesn't mean they "know" basketball, and just because a fan thinks the team could use some more scoring from the center position doesn't mean they don't know basketball. Those takes will depend on what we all see on the court PLUS each fan's view of 1)what they enjoy watching and 2)how to sustain winning.
I wouldn't say that people who think all we need is Looney in the middle don't know basketball. I'd say we disagree in whether Looney and similarly non-scorers at the center position will work in the playoffs. Looking at last year, the evidence says "No," even in the 3-point era. I think that evidence is important. But it does not mean that people who disagree with me "don't know basketball."
You can't say "looking at last year, the evidence says "No"" without acknowledging that looking at the prior year, the evidence said yes.
What ChemKoala said. The last title year the Dubs had Bjeli and OPJ supplying front court points (and, in fact, pulling the opponent out into space). Bjeli and OPJ are gone and JMG/Lamb didn't take up the slack. If anything, the title year offers even more support for my contention.
That said, there are multiple ways to win. But, still, I think we can all agree that opponents' ability to defend declines as the number of players they have to worry about scoring increases, all else equal. And this is especially true when the new additional points come from a source previously untapped, and, thus, now occupies a defender who had been able to help but now no longer can.
I mean, we also had a stretch 5 in Bjeli, no? Do we think someone would pay Looney more if he wasn't as dominant on the glass, but he had Bjeli's shooting? What's the exchange rate between Looney's skills and flashier ones?
I think I broadly agree with PG here that Looney's offensive limitations cap how many ways he can fit a team, which will reduce his FA market. I personally think Looney is undervalued, but I don't think every other FO is dumb, and they all passed on offering Looney enough to leave.
Yeah, I think if you say Looney is an average backup or "not that good" you aren't watching many Warrior games. I'm thinking of some twitter/real life loud mouths in particular.
One of my favorite memories in the Dubs-Kings series was early on when Sabonis got the ball in the post against Loon. He pump fakes and Looney doesn't move. He pump fakes again and Looney doesn't move. Then he throws up a weak shot falling away that barely draws iron.
Note to league: Looney doesn't go for pump fakes
Loon. The ultimate professional. Never up or never down. Always ready for battle. Warrior for life.
A rarity I know, but Ive had a handful of bad takes on here over the years (GSOM/ESPN included). by far the worst take Ive ever had was saying the Warriors blew that 2015 draft by drafting Looney over Osman. Looney is up there IMO along with Draymond and Gilbert Arenas in Warriors late pick draft history lore
Osman has had a pretty decent career.
Not disagreeing but its not the gulf that i once thought it was and its not a gulf by any stretch now. Osman would provide some solid bench minutes. Just think Looney gives us everything we need from
The 5. Id still like to see a big big just to take some hits from the Nurkics and Valanciunas while saving Looney for
Postseason
Don't worry, GR3>Moody will be keeping that take company.
I wish both Moodys the best. I never wish someone (Wiseman included) folly at the expense of our success BUT when everyone is wanting Moody traded for Paul George (or outright released cause there is precious little medium ground with this or any fanbase) I’ll refer back to this tweet
Let it be known that I'd love Paul George on the Warriors lol. I don't see how trading Moody for George would vindicate a take that GR3 is better though.
Regardless I don't bring up old takes often, I'm just noting it like I noted when someone mid-season said they'd take Anthony Lamb over Moody going forward. The Moody Mafia doesn't forget.
If GR3 is good enough to make this squad, he’ll be good enough to take most of Moodys minutes. As i told Sleepy though, just don’t think any player taking such a long layoff like him and Waiters can positively impact rotation minutes. This is why we need to expand by 3 teams: Seattle, Las Vegas, KC
> If GR3 is good enough to make this squad, he’ll be good enough to take most of Moodys minutes.
Don't see how that follows.
Why would the Warriors be bringing in GR3 and why would GR3 be signing with the Warriors if hes just end of the bench fodder. Hed have to be brought in to provide rotation depth. Who else would he be taking minutes from other than Moody. If they want end of the bench depth then just sign Quinones. Again though i dont think he’s good enough at this point. If i could get early 2020 GR3 yeah id take him this year over Moody. I just dont think we are getting that type of player
:)
I am a huge Looney fan for all the reasons pointed out in the article. Yet I think it fair when praising a player to take a look at weaknesses as well as strengths. I think as a Warrior fan I've become accustomed to the idea that we're just not going to get much of a scoring threat at the 5. (Which is pretty remarkable because we also don't from Draymond.) Whenever Looney makes or even takes a jumper (if that's the word) my jaw drops. That's pretty remarkable in an era when big men shoot better than ever. I'll also say that although I love his offensive rebounding, it does come in an era with two changes that help explain why he leads the league. One change is big men playing on the perimeter, so it's hard to crash the boards. Another is some teams encouraging hustling back on D after a shot goes up and conceding the rebound.
Looney has become an integral key piece for the Warriors. But I wouldn't put him in the top 10 centers in the league. Which is fine, because at the outset of his career I wouldn't have thought I'd even consider the question. His injury recovery and overall improvement have been outstanding.
Can you name your 10 better centers?
All of the following have a strong case that they're better overall than Looney. I concede that each has weaknesses and that Looney's strengths tend to fly under the radar and go unappreciated.
Still, my list might be something like: Embiid, Jokic, Sabonis, Adebayo, B. Lopez, Ayton (yeah I said it) KAT (yeah I said it again), Porzingis, Vucevich, Valanciunas, JJJ if he's a center, Myles Turner if you can ignore off court issues, Zubac, Jarrett Allen.
To me, there's probably 7-8 guys who are definitely better (Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, AD, Adebayo, Lopez, JJJ, Ayton), and a bunch of dudes who are basically in the same tier as Loon with different strengths & weaknesses... but who's strengths are sexier and get them paid... and then run off the floor in the post season.
Whether having KAT helps you win is a totally open question.
AD, Rudy Gobert, Robert Williams, etc. Looney is certainly not a top ten center in the NBA. He's a perfect match of skillset and role for the Warriors, but I don't think we need to exaggerate beyond that.
100
Oh, and in about ten minutes, Wembanyama. I love that they are calling him a forward sometimes. Bruh.
Wembanyama's gonna be interesting... his center of gravity is so high, so he'll absolutely get pushed around... but his arms are so long, so it might not even matter that he gets pushed out of position...
Yeah... I'm gonna have to agree that there's a case for the MVP to be considered better than Loon.
Well, all the people who have fewer O-boards than Loon also operate under the same conditions/in the same era, so ...
The correct comparison is not how many O-boards Loon has compared to other centers, it is how many O-boards does he have vs. how many D-boards do they have. I don't know the answer to that question, but when Loon is trying to get an O-board the opponent can only try to get a D-board.
I totally see your point, but it depends a bit on context. Asher was saying that some factors in Loon leading the league in O-boards were many talented big men being on the perimeter (and thus not having good position for O boards) and teams getting back on D instead of going for O-boards. I'm saying that those factors affect everyone who goes for O-boards and Loon is still the best at it.
However, to your point, while I don't have statistics, the eye test shows me Loon outworking, out position, and beating up opposing players in order to get boards on both sides of the ball so I'm not sure what numeric statistic would measure your comparison , but i feel pretty good about Looney's standings in it when you come up with it.
> However, to your point, while I don't have statistics, the eye test shows me Loon outworking, out position, and beating up opposing players in order to get boards on both sides of the ball so I'm not sure what numeric statistic would measure your comparison , but i feel pretty good about Looney's standings in it when you come up with it.
I now see YOUR point. I guess my post was motivated not just by your post, but also by the refusal of tv coverage to do very simple things that would be majorly informative. Like, at the end of the half, instead of showing us "Rebounds" they could show us
Teams...............When Team A Missed.........................When Team B Missed
Team A....................# O-Boards..............................................# D-Boards
Team B.....................# D-Boards..............................................# O-Boards
I try to do this myself but the info I need usually leaves the screen too quickly.
It is all contextual. For example, I think if they said to Embiid: forget your face up game, your perimeter game, just let harden attack and your job is to get offensive rebounds, he'd crush Looney's numbers. That's OK, Embiid is MVP caliber. Looney is outstanding at using what he's got and learning and improving and fitting to the system. He's gotten really good at offensive rebounds, but I do think the context helps.
And this is why many of us were excited by Wiseman and are also excited by the new guy. Looney is great, but what if we could have all that PLUS a vertical threat? What about all that, a vertical threat, AND a short-hook/mid-range game the player is willing to use? What about all that, a vertical threat, a short hook/mid-range game, handles enough to go coast-to-coast, AND the occasional 3? If the coach would use such a player right, it would only multiply the challenges opponents face defending the Dubs. This may not matter as much in the regular season, but we just saw that it matters in the playoffs. How would the Lakers' series have gone if the Dubs had actual scoring threats in the front court, so they didn't HAVE to take 3's almost every possession?
This is what had us excited about another center. 'Cause Looneys GREAT--but he is now and has been in the past far more replaceable than Dray. So if we want that production, it has to come from Looney's spot--either Looney himself growing into that, or some replacement.
I think the point of the article is that it's not so easy to "have all that" let alone all that and then some more.
It's not the Warriors system that makes Looney who he is. It helps, but Loon's own personal traits matter. His mentality, his experience, his willingness to play from the bench or the starting lineup, his nose for the ball... Some of those traits are hard to see, or quantify—is his discipline in not falling for pump fakes even possible for other guys to achieve?
But the Dubs have had a lot of guys fail to achieve what Looney's done for multiple seasons now. Even someone like, Giannis who's a damn good defender, a better scorer than Loon, and also a fun personality, but did he lead the league in O-rebs? Nah, Loon did. How about AST/TOV? Yeah, Loon was about 5:1 while Giannis was less than 1.5:1. No one beats Loon across the board(s).
Put some respect on the man: Loon is uniquely good at his role and we're blessed to have him.
I know. If only Wiseman had turned out to be Wiseman.
The best center under 6'9" in league history is GPII.
Best center under 6'4"
GPII stands alone.
Indeed, GPII stands tall
Asher: > The best center under 6'9" in league history is GPII.
SabWrites: > Draymond.
1x Rookie of the Year :-) , 1x MVP--HIS ROOKIE YEAR!!! :O! , 1x Finals MVP, 5x NBA All-Star, 1x NBA Champion, Hall of Fame Center Wes Unseld (6'7") would like a word.
Wes Unseld threw some of the prettiest, most perfect outlet passes I've ever seen. He also was a beast on the boards.
Note: Only 2 players in league history have won Rookie of the Year and League MVP in the same year:
1)Wilt Chamberlain (at age 23)
2)Wes Unseld (at age 22)
The only other 22 year old to win MVP is Derrick Rose in 2010-11.
I feel bad for Derrick Rose. His injury and the changing nature of the game haven't been as kind, but he was a badass that year.
Looney is a respectful, quiet, DAWG.