Rewatching the game today, I noticed some things that didn't jump out to me live. I have to take back what I said about the coaches being weird putting Wiseman in at the end. By FAR the best stretch of the game was in the 3rd quarter with Wiseman on the court. While he made mistakes, he also played a part in a bunch of the plays that created the comeback. You can see Draymond whispering to him and then him working with Dray to set two screens to get Poole loose for a drive and kick or open for a 3. His screens still seem to be in the wrong place a lot of the time, but for whatever reason he was still getting teammates open. He also had that excellent pass to a cutting Wiggins, which must have been doubly exciting for the coaches to see Wiggins beat his man to make a back cut (lol).
In general, that lineup convincingly looked like they were working TOGETHER in a way that was giving Philly's defense trouble through the 3rd quarter. Going back to Wiseman and all of those guys together in the 4th was the natural move for this coaching staff. They often reward lineups that are working well that day.
Also, when Wiseman does have a good stretch, as a coach you've gotta be thinking "maybe he's making the leap right now" and the temptation to play him and not squander whatever rhythm he's in must be astronomically high. Wiseman playing all around good basketball by the end of this season, after all, would be as big of a win for the team next year as almost anything else they can accomplish.
Thank you for the reminder- while his screens are still not very physical, he's big enough that he set a couple really good ones during that run. And that bounce pass was a real assist. I recall one of the TV announcers saying they think he'll be a good passer. I listened to some of the broadcast on the radio, and Tim and Tom were remarking on how much Wiseman's hands have improved.
Yeah, Wiseman was at an experience/IQ level at the start of season where a lot of his improvements from there are going to be things most of us DON'T notice, rather than things we do notice, for a while. Because it's more about subtracting bad habits than adding stand out performances, more about addition by subtraction.
I also think it's possible his defensive positioning has improved on most plays, but that teams have scouted his lack of strength and tendency to go for late blocks and give away rebounds (which is a pretty common weakness for even experienced guys who want to be shot blockers, and something that gets scouted). Teams attacking him with more of a plan can theoretically make him look worse on defense this season even while he's improving.
That's a really good point. His position is often the easiest to exploit, even with veterans. Just look at how we exploited PHI's centers last night! Honestly, the thing that most bugged me about J Dub last night was him repeatedly getting in Oubre's space on offense, as if he had no idea where to be. That's exactly the kind of thing that a couple practices could resolve, and it's not like there was a chemistry problem between them otherwise.
Soo tired of seeing people insist losing with Wiseman will lead to a better future. Losing franchises lose for decades with top draft picks.
Losing doesn’t breed winning.
Winning breeds winning. Players being forced to develop winning habits to get on to the court breeds winning habits. Players with losing habits playing ahead of players who have put in the work to earn it DESTROYS winning habits and demotivates those potential workers who fill in the gaps that lead to winning.
That is the fundamental truth of sports people calling for Wiseman’s development need to understand. His development will truly come by beating out Looney and JTA on the fundamentals to earn playing time.
I agree with you but also disagree with you. With young players, minutes are needed for development. That's the fundamental truth of sports that people making your argument need to understand.
To summarize, make Wiseman earn minutes but also recognize that he needs to play games in order to learn from his mistakes and get better. Try to win and development, thats the balance that Kerr has been trying to strike. I think he needs to give a little bit more minutes, around 22 minutes a night with Looney/Draymond taking the slack. If he plays well, he should get considerably more. If he doesn't, he should still get 22 minutes. Let him learn and play through mistakes.
This is amplified by the fact that he’s not going to learn much in the G league, where his existing skills will make it easy for him to just roll the competition.
Wiseman desperately needed to go to the G-League bubble and play 40 minutes a game. He’s not close to understanding team basketball, and the team should not sacrifice a season for the unknown future (no team ever should.)
Too bad ego still trumps effectiveness so often in the NBA (as evidenced by Oubre’s quotes on Poole being too good for the G-league despite the clear benefits it had for the guys that went.)
Some really good news, there are TWO two-day breaks coming up in the next week without Steph, once before the Bulls home game on the 29th, once after. So that should probably mean they get more practices that week than they've gotten with Wise since he joined the team?
There is no logical explanation for JTA to not get consistent minutes and if there is Kerr needs to address it, the rotations have been dogshit all year
I dont understand the questioning of the rotation. It should be clear to any Warriors fan that Steve Kerr uses his rotations strategically and for a purpose. I love JTA. I feel he brings an intelligence that is exceeded only by Draymond. But if he is not playing, it is because Kerr is trying something out that none of us knows anything about. JTA will play, we are not winning a championship this year, but we are putting pieces together that will help is next year. I am trusting that Kerr believes JTA is one of those pieces.
Did a player have a notably bad game? Yes: this player needs to be ______ (benched/traded/scolded).
Did a young player not display his potential to be the next LeBron? Yes: why are we playing this guy? he clearly has no potential and should be ____ (benched/traded/sacrificed to the bball gods for popcorn).
Can't blame any players? OK then it's all on Kerr. His ______ (rotations/lineups) were ______ (crapola/OK). But he really should have ______ (called a timeout/played X player these minutes/broken a clipboard).
The rotations clearly haven’t been focused on winning or used stats or the eye test in choosing pairings. How can you not understand why people would question them?
So kerr playing wannamaker 30 games was strategic? We should definitely question the rotation. A competitive round in the playoffs would do better for this team then moving up a couple spots in the draft
You are constantly basing your arguments around hindsight being 20/20. At the beginning of this season, almost all of us thought Brad was an important piece who would shoot the ball well and run the second team competently.
At 15 games, we should have tried out Poole. Remember, I was one of the main people preaching caution with Oubre, so I'm not someone to rush things. However, Wanna has only had one good year of production so I would have been far more quick to throw Poole in there to test things out.
How is a potential two way wing that can switch and play the 4 not a potential future asset? One might say that’s a bigger asset than a C in today’s NBA.
If by front court loaded the meaning is they have lots of negative win share players they insist on playing because the FO believes they will one day be useful, then yes the roster is loaded.
I looked at various stat tools available on nba.com/stats. One can do player stats (e.g. Gobert) when another specific player (e.g. Wiseman) is on court but I can't find a way to do stats of a player against another player. "cleaningtheglass" probably has but I believe it is paid service
Yea the interface is wonky. Some stats you can only get to via player stats and some you can only get via team stats (eg. playtype) so it's kind of confusing.
It’s games like this I where I start to wonder if we should be prioritising KO on this roster. He’s a baller with a tremendous attitude to the game. His ability to find offensive form after a horrendous start to the season really tells you something about his resilience.
In a lot of ways, Oubre fills the hole left by the Iguodala trade. Despite what is agent says, I'm not seeing a "top 10" guy, whatever that means, but he would be an excellent 6th man. The question is whether the Warriors are willing to pay the tax hit and if Oubre would be satisfied with that role.
I don't usually complain about coaching since there's wayyyy too much of that, but a small quibble would be lineups were very strange to close this game. Almost like the coaches put Wise out there and then went "oh shoot, never mind" and then changed lineups again (and again I think?) all within a couple of minutes.
Wiseman made a few horrid defensive decisions to try to block on help late, leaving no one to rebound right before he got pulled. They definitely were willing to tank this game by playing Wiseman but they are focused on him progressing on his defensive decision making and are likely trying to coach him using game examples since he keeps missing practices through bad luck.
That's probably just bound to happen when you're torn between the huge importance of developing a rookie (whether you keep or trade) and that rookie looking reallllly lost.
Remember that stretch of games where Wiggins was shooting >50% from the field? I miss it. He's still improved on D and from 3, but goddamn is his mid-range infuriating. Poole struggled in this one, but you could see the cogs turning. He missed a few shots and a few passes but he's getting close. Really, really promising that even after the 1-7 start he found a rhythm and 19 pts. Even if he had 4 TO's, his most in a long while.
If this was Oubre's last game as a Dub, it was a really nice one. As a team, still need to rebound better: 13 fewer rebounds led to -13 in second chance points. Wiseman's minutes are gonna be really rough defensively. The Dubs are now 1-4 in non Steph games, but all but the PHX game have been close. But these games are gonna haunt for seeding.
Wiseman was bad tonight. Hopefully he's just a lil rusty from the time off but he looked worse than before he took the week off. I also wish Kerr hadn't of played him in the last 5 min, the team moral is more important than 3 min of development time imo
Wouldn’t you say the Spurs generally do a phenomenal job developing their young players? Don’t you want that kind of development as opposed to the T-Wolves style?
Love it :) Every time I see him injured though I think please Steph... I beg you... no more jumping (let alone backpedaling without looking) into the stands, playoffs included. Still shaking my head on that one.
Rewatching the game today, I noticed some things that didn't jump out to me live. I have to take back what I said about the coaches being weird putting Wiseman in at the end. By FAR the best stretch of the game was in the 3rd quarter with Wiseman on the court. While he made mistakes, he also played a part in a bunch of the plays that created the comeback. You can see Draymond whispering to him and then him working with Dray to set two screens to get Poole loose for a drive and kick or open for a 3. His screens still seem to be in the wrong place a lot of the time, but for whatever reason he was still getting teammates open. He also had that excellent pass to a cutting Wiggins, which must have been doubly exciting for the coaches to see Wiggins beat his man to make a back cut (lol).
In general, that lineup convincingly looked like they were working TOGETHER in a way that was giving Philly's defense trouble through the 3rd quarter. Going back to Wiseman and all of those guys together in the 4th was the natural move for this coaching staff. They often reward lineups that are working well that day.
Also, when Wiseman does have a good stretch, as a coach you've gotta be thinking "maybe he's making the leap right now" and the temptation to play him and not squander whatever rhythm he's in must be astronomically high. Wiseman playing all around good basketball by the end of this season, after all, would be as big of a win for the team next year as almost anything else they can accomplish.
Thank you for the reminder- while his screens are still not very physical, he's big enough that he set a couple really good ones during that run. And that bounce pass was a real assist. I recall one of the TV announcers saying they think he'll be a good passer. I listened to some of the broadcast on the radio, and Tim and Tom were remarking on how much Wiseman's hands have improved.
Yeah, Wiseman was at an experience/IQ level at the start of season where a lot of his improvements from there are going to be things most of us DON'T notice, rather than things we do notice, for a while. Because it's more about subtracting bad habits than adding stand out performances, more about addition by subtraction.
I also think it's possible his defensive positioning has improved on most plays, but that teams have scouted his lack of strength and tendency to go for late blocks and give away rebounds (which is a pretty common weakness for even experienced guys who want to be shot blockers, and something that gets scouted). Teams attacking him with more of a plan can theoretically make him look worse on defense this season even while he's improving.
That's a really good point. His position is often the easiest to exploit, even with veterans. Just look at how we exploited PHI's centers last night! Honestly, the thing that most bugged me about J Dub last night was him repeatedly getting in Oubre's space on offense, as if he had no idea where to be. That's exactly the kind of thing that a couple practices could resolve, and it's not like there was a chemistry problem between them otherwise.
Soo tired of seeing people insist losing with Wiseman will lead to a better future. Losing franchises lose for decades with top draft picks.
Losing doesn’t breed winning.
Winning breeds winning. Players being forced to develop winning habits to get on to the court breeds winning habits. Players with losing habits playing ahead of players who have put in the work to earn it DESTROYS winning habits and demotivates those potential workers who fill in the gaps that lead to winning.
That is the fundamental truth of sports people calling for Wiseman’s development need to understand. His development will truly come by beating out Looney and JTA on the fundamentals to earn playing time.
I agree with you but also disagree with you. With young players, minutes are needed for development. That's the fundamental truth of sports that people making your argument need to understand.
To summarize, make Wiseman earn minutes but also recognize that he needs to play games in order to learn from his mistakes and get better. Try to win and development, thats the balance that Kerr has been trying to strike. I think he needs to give a little bit more minutes, around 22 minutes a night with Looney/Draymond taking the slack. If he plays well, he should get considerably more. If he doesn't, he should still get 22 minutes. Let him learn and play through mistakes.
This is amplified by the fact that he’s not going to learn much in the G league, where his existing skills will make it easy for him to just roll the competition.
Wiseman desperately needed to go to the G-League bubble and play 40 minutes a game. He’s not close to understanding team basketball, and the team should not sacrifice a season for the unknown future (no team ever should.)
Too bad ego still trumps effectiveness so often in the NBA (as evidenced by Oubre’s quotes on Poole being too good for the G-league despite the clear benefits it had for the guys that went.)
His skills and size would make G league to easy for him. It’s the NBA level nuances that he needs to learn.
Some really good news, there are TWO two-day breaks coming up in the next week without Steph, once before the Bulls home game on the 29th, once after. So that should probably mean they get more practices that week than they've gotten with Wise since he joined the team?
And of he misses those practices we’ll know for sure this is just a star crossed marriage.
There is no logical explanation for JTA to not get consistent minutes and if there is Kerr needs to address it, the rotations have been dogshit all year
I dont understand the questioning of the rotation. It should be clear to any Warriors fan that Steve Kerr uses his rotations strategically and for a purpose. I love JTA. I feel he brings an intelligence that is exceeded only by Draymond. But if he is not playing, it is because Kerr is trying something out that none of us knows anything about. JTA will play, we are not winning a championship this year, but we are putting pieces together that will help is next year. I am trusting that Kerr believes JTA is one of those pieces.
Choose Your Own Adventure: NBA Losses
Did a player have a notably bad game? Yes: this player needs to be ______ (benched/traded/scolded).
Did a young player not display his potential to be the next LeBron? Yes: why are we playing this guy? he clearly has no potential and should be ____ (benched/traded/sacrificed to the bball gods for popcorn).
Can't blame any players? OK then it's all on Kerr. His ______ (rotations/lineups) were ______ (crapola/OK). But he really should have ______ (called a timeout/played X player these minutes/broken a clipboard).
Also the FO failed because _______ (free form).
* (ages 5-13; not recommended for adults over 24)
The rotations clearly haven’t been focused on winning or used stats or the eye test in choosing pairings. How can you not understand why people would question them?
So kerr playing wannamaker 30 games was strategic? We should definitely question the rotation. A competitive round in the playoffs would do better for this team then moving up a couple spots in the draft
You are constantly basing your arguments around hindsight being 20/20. At the beginning of this season, almost all of us thought Brad was an important piece who would shoot the ball well and run the second team competently.
At 15 games, we should have tried out Poole. Remember, I was one of the main people preaching caution with Oubre, so I'm not someone to rush things. However, Wanna has only had one good year of production so I would have been far more quick to throw Poole in there to test things out.
Seems like I was right there.
But Poole hadn't made his progress yet. None of this happens in a vacuum.
Poole made progress at the end of last season and during this offseason
Not sure that’s true. Wannamaker looked lost from the moment he set foot on the court for the W’s. There was hope he could progress perhaps.
Yes, there was definitely that hope.
They like starting out games down by 20. Gives them a motivational boost to play harder.
Yes there is: he’s not a future asset that needs minutes to develop.
How is a potential two way wing that can switch and play the 4 not a potential future asset? One might say that’s a bigger asset than a C in today’s NBA.
Jta is not young but he did just get in the league and he has developed this year so I don't know if I agree with this
If by front court loaded the meaning is they have lots of negative win share players they insist on playing because the FO believes they will one day be useful, then yes the roster is loaded.
I know this is a downer of a question, but how many centers have put up perfect/career shooting games going up against Wiseman this year?
I looked at various stat tools available on nba.com/stats. One can do player stats (e.g. Gobert) when another specific player (e.g. Wiseman) is on court but I can't find a way to do stats of a player against another player. "cleaningtheglass" probably has but I believe it is paid service
Maybe Matchups > Head-to-Head? https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630164/head-to-head/
Nice. How do you get there? I dont see 'Matchup' under any of the drop downs on the stats page
Never mind. I got it. Thanks.
Yea the interface is wonky. Some stats you can only get to via player stats and some you can only get via team stats (eg. playtype) so it's kind of confusing.
I don't wanna look it up...
Was Wanamaker and Paschall even at the game tonight? Feels like every time they showed the bench it was shots of Curry only
Makes one wonder with the trade deadline
If this was Oubre's last game with the Warriors I'll be sad, he'd be a great player for a championship contender to have.
I know this isn't how it works, but I wish we could keep Oubre over Wiggs. Both are flawed, but KOJ's attitude fits so well.
It’s games like this I where I start to wonder if we should be prioritising KO on this roster. He’s a baller with a tremendous attitude to the game. His ability to find offensive form after a horrendous start to the season really tells you something about his resilience.
In a lot of ways, Oubre fills the hole left by the Iguodala trade. Despite what is agent says, I'm not seeing a "top 10" guy, whatever that means, but he would be an excellent 6th man. The question is whether the Warriors are willing to pay the tax hit and if Oubre would be satisfied with that role.
I'd root for him on any contender except for the Lakers and Nets
I don't usually complain about coaching since there's wayyyy too much of that, but a small quibble would be lineups were very strange to close this game. Almost like the coaches put Wise out there and then went "oh shoot, never mind" and then changed lineups again (and again I think?) all within a couple of minutes.
Wiseman made a few horrid defensive decisions to try to block on help late, leaving no one to rebound right before he got pulled. They definitely were willing to tank this game by playing Wiseman but they are focused on him progressing on his defensive decision making and are likely trying to coach him using game examples since he keeps missing practices through bad luck.
That's probably just bound to happen when you're torn between the huge importance of developing a rookie (whether you keep or trade) and that rookie looking reallllly lost.
Remember that stretch of games where Wiggins was shooting >50% from the field? I miss it. He's still improved on D and from 3, but goddamn is his mid-range infuriating. Poole struggled in this one, but you could see the cogs turning. He missed a few shots and a few passes but he's getting close. Really, really promising that even after the 1-7 start he found a rhythm and 19 pts. Even if he had 4 TO's, his most in a long while.
If this was Oubre's last game as a Dub, it was a really nice one. As a team, still need to rebound better: 13 fewer rebounds led to -13 in second chance points. Wiseman's minutes are gonna be really rough defensively. The Dubs are now 1-4 in non Steph games, but all but the PHX game have been close. But these games are gonna haunt for seeding.
Wiseman was bad tonight. Hopefully he's just a lil rusty from the time off but he looked worse than before he took the week off. I also wish Kerr hadn't of played him in the last 5 min, the team moral is more important than 3 min of development time imo
Completely disagree: most important issue now is developing Poole & Wiseman.
Wouldn’t you say the Spurs generally do a phenomenal job developing their young players? Don’t you want that kind of development as opposed to the T-Wolves style?
You can’t develop winning by losing.
Just plain dumb, you're starting him now so he's getting plenty of minutes to not have to close games
Agreed, seemed like a very surprising choice after that first quarter when the game was basically tied in the 4th.
Notable stats:
76ers:
Harris: (+22)
25 points 9/18 FGs 1/2 three pointers 6/6 FTs
13 rebounds 4 assists 3 turnovers 1 block
Simmons: (+23)
22 points 7/15 FGs 8/14 FTs
8 rebounds (1 off.) 4 assists 2 turnovers 1 steal
Bradley: (+15)
18 points 8/8 FGs 2/2 FTs
11 rebounds (4 off.) 1 turnover 2 steals 2 blocks
Danny Green: (+25)
11 points 4/9 FGs 3/8 three pointers
2 rebounds (1 off.) 1 assist
Warriors:
Oubre: (+4)
24 points 8/14 FGs 2/4 three pointers 6/9 FTs
10 rebounds (3 off.) 3 assists 1 block
Lee: (+6)
16 points 6/7 FGs 2/3 three pointers 2/2 FTs
Poole: (-8)
19 points 5/16 FGs 2/9 three pointers 7/7 FTs
4 rebounds 2 assists 4 turnovers
Wiseman: (-7)
11 points 5/13 FGs 0/1 three pointer
4 rebounds 2 assists 1 block
Final stats:
76ers:
45.3% shooting (39/86 FGs)
7/24 three pointers
23/35 FTs
51 rebounds (13 off.)
15 assists
14 turnovers
5 steals
4 blocks
Warriors:
43.4% shooting (36/83 FGs)
8/25 three pointers
18/26 FTs
38 rebounds (6 off.)
22 assists
13 turnovers
5 steals
7 blocks
Points in paint:
76ers: 58
Warriors: 48
Fastbreak points:
76ers: 10
Warriors: 8
Points off turnovers:
76ers: 19
Warriors: 17
Bench points:
76ers: 20
Warriors: 24
Coming of age game for JP. Really looks very promising right now. Hard 4th but perimeter defenses don't really get much better than this Sixers team.
Wiseman was a disaster defensively (almost always) and offensively (whenever he tried to score except dunking).
Wiggins was Wiggins. That's not a compliment. Oubre was pretty good. Mannion and Lee were solid. Looney was tremendous. Draymond looked uninterested.
Philly should really trade for Lowry if they can.
"Draymond looked uninterested"
Don't know how you could say this if you watched the same game I did, unless you're trolling. Draymond looked anything but uninterested.
Philly didn’t have Curry or Embiid right? That’s a lot of touches and 3’s to be missing. We didn’t see their true team at all.
Don't worry Warriors fans. WGBC! (Next year)
Love it :) Every time I see him injured though I think please Steph... I beg you... no more jumping (let alone backpedaling without looking) into the stands, playoffs included. Still shaking my head on that one.