On a side note, have you guys looked at Isaiah Todd from G League Ignite?
The man is 6'10, athletic, and has a silky smooth jumper. His handle is suspect, but his catch and shoot ability (he can hit it on the run, catch and shoot, off one drible, turn around in the post) definitely has a wow factor.
If he had a handle, I'd definitely be looking more into him.
Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Dray/Poole will help us get a top 7 offense. Klay/Wiggins/Dray/Looney will help us get a top 3 defense. The fact that Wiggins will play a major role for us on both sides of the court is a major plus for me (I'm a big fan of 2 way non-guards).
My greatest concern is how much of Klay will be back. He has been 2 years away from the game. I’m thinking he won’t he Klay of old but maybe we get a 70% version of klay? #managingExpectations
Man if I were a pistons fan (ugh) I would be sooooooo pissed about the Blake Griffin tank job. Arguably worse than the James Harden Memorial Tank The Eff Outta Houston parade. The fact there is not just one but TWO of these guys on the same team makes me really hope the Nets go down in flames.
Man, just watching this again and thinking about that squad. What a group of guys. So glad we got David Lee a ring. IMO his signing was the official turnaround point for this franchise.
As the resident Wiggins skeptic on staff, I have a hard time finding things wrong with how he played this season. Sure, his scoring efficiency could be a whole lot better, but it's definitely not like he's actively hurting us on that end. The defense has been real nice, and I really like how well he smoothly fits into almost any lineup combination.
My only gripes are big picture issues, but it's all sunk costs at this point so I'm comfortably visiting Wiggins Island. These next two seasons are going to be a wild ride, but it tells me a lot that I'm rooting for Wiggins to stick around because of how he's thrived here for the past season and a half. With Klay coming back sometime OTHER than the beginning of the season, the Wiggs/Dray/Steph core has us in good hands.
I'm ready to see them run it back with Klay. Watching these playoffs, it's abundantly clear how wide open the championship chase was.
> Warriors rook James Wiseman, rehabbing after meniscus surgery, on chances of offseason workouts with Kevin Garnett: 'We should. I’m getting better rapidly, at a high rate. I’m getting better each day because I’m taking care of myself. It should still happen. For sure.'
Didn't they already rule him out through training camp? But maybe it was a smokescreen to downplay expectations so Wiseman can get ready on his own time and be seen as "recovering ahead of schedule, thanks to all his hard work and dedication"
Jun 17, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
Wiggins Island isn't one of those full-of-tourists-white-sand-beach-kind-of-shithole, it's an Island made from a volcano. It has substance. It will remain after the next hurricane passes over. It's here to stay. And it doesn't like other NBA small forwards. It swallows them. And then it spits them out. Like it will do to KD next year in the Finals.
Jun 17, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
Big fan of Wiggs since we picked him up.
Prior to the trade I was against it because of all that I had heard about him-- however, most of that was because of some foggy memory of him wearing a luxurious fanny pack to a pre-game. That stuck in my craw for some reason... Anyways, after the trade I figured I'd look more into him and was gradually getting more and more excited. Probably because the trade had already happened and there was nothing I could do about it. I saw his length, his athleticism, his willingness to drive, his reserved demeanor, the foolishness he dealt with as a kid in Cleveland-- Everything kept pointing to him needing a the right opportunity to turn his career around- if he chose to.
I see areas where he can grow. I hope these small positive steps feed his fire. I like Wiggs and I would love to see what he can do with the Steph, Dray and Klay.
I was so impressed with Wiggs this season. I did an about turned on my early leanings towards trading and very much see him as essential to our success next year. His defence was phenomenal and the fact he’ll get 18-20PPG without breaking a sweat (or appearing to) is damn good.
He’ll take the pressure off Kay as he gets his game fitness back, and should get an increased amount of open looks with the splash Bros charging around. This upcoming season is going to be a fun one to watch from the island.
That said, Cuban fired Nelson and Luka said he was disappointed. Seems likely Carlisle leaving isn't on Luka either... unless there is something out there that is more substantial.
Seems like this was the year of superstars fucking things up for franchises...decent or otherwise. I don't know how you make life untenable for one of the best coaches in the league but Dallas managed to do it
It's speculation on my part for sure, but it's the first thing that popped into my mind after reading this earlier this week in the Athletic:
> Doncic’s relationship with his head coach, Rick Carlisle, has been publicly scrutinized since joining his team. It’s expected Carlisle will return next season, multiple league sources say, something Cuban publicly voiced support for last week shortly after the first round defeat.
> “Let me tell you how I look at coaching,” he told ESPN. “You don’t make a change to make a change. Unless you have someone that you know is much, much, much better, the grass is rarely greener on the other side.”
> Multiple sources were surprised to see Cuban’s prompt backing of Carlisle, however, even though Cuban’s support for Carlisle has hardly wavered over the past decade. During the season, it was believed Carlisle’s future could be reconsidered following the season, partly due to a belief Doncic had tuned him out.
> “It was very much up in the air,” one source with intimate knowledge of the situation said.
> Sources say some players have been frustrated with Carlisle after they lost playing time despite doing exactly what they felt he had asked of them, and for stiff rotation patterns, the latter of which they viewed — correctly, team sources confirm — as being dictated directly to him by Voulgaris. Early on, Doncic also disliked Carlisle’s timeouts and frequent calling of plays.
> But Carlisle, who’s “adaptable as a motherfucker,” as one league source put it, began to modify his coaching style as a way of relieving some of the pressure from this sensitive situation. Beyond Carlisle’s obvious coaching acumen, he has always been able and willing to, in essence, read the room when it came to which personal battles he could win and which ones he couldn’t. This was no different.
> The tension between Carlisle and 22-year-old superstar Luka Doncic had increasingly become concerning within the Mavs organization, sources said. Doncic showed up Carlisle on several occasions this season, such as making animated gestures on the court when he disagreed with a decision or yelling at Carlisle in front of assistant coaches and teammates.
And this might be unfair to Doncic but he whines so much to officials, he has a bad relationship with Porzingis, he seemed to be getting noticeably upset sometimes when his teammates made bad plays in that Clipper series. I dunno, super talented but he doesn't seem like the easiest guy to work with.
Certainly not as coachable as Andrew Wiggins! That's my attempt to bring this back to the thread topic lol.
"But for most of this season, certain Williamson family members voiced displeasure with the organization. Among the targets of their criticism was Van Gundy, who they felt was too rigid and demanding as head coach, but also with the organization, which they claim did not live up to what they felt should be the standard for a star like Williamson. Numerous opposing league executives had heard the complaints, and they were confirmed by Pelicans officials."
Just a classic case of a player thinking they are more valuable than the name on their jersey. He's right in the short term, but will it hurt the league in the long term?
It does seem to be accelerating that players are just going where they really want. Now, it's gonna be hilarious when the Zion goes to the Knicks and the Knicks do Knick things and fail to "live up to what they felt should be the standard for a star like Williamson."
Wiggins is like the 15-20th best SF in the league. And in a league where SF is the most important position, that's valuable. He's also the only salary that could be used for ballast if we trade for a superstar. Unfortunately, if said superstar is not a 3, the team all of a sudden could have a huge hole at the most important position in today's NBA. Still there's no arguing 2020 was a successful year for Wiggins. Now get to 40% on 3P%, cut out a few long 2's and you got yourself a player.
Could you quibble and say some guys are actually 2's or 4's? Of course. Positionless basketball. But if you offered me a 1-1 swap not counting salary considerations I'd take everybody in Tiers 1-3 and consider those in tier 4 to replace Wiggins at SF for the Dubs.
It has been established that Wiggins' defense could be called "elite." With his reliable 18 points on offense, I actually have a hard time believing there are that many SFs that are ahead of him. This slightly-outdated list has him at #12, and it was written before this past season:
It's so nuts when people talk about trading Wiggs+Wise like it's no big thing. Wiggs alongside the splash bros (read: with Klay) is almost certainly an even more loose, confident version of what we've seen, both on O and D. To compare what we have with him vs DLo is ridiculous on the face of it: DLo should just be called Lo- he got no D!
I know there are folks here who think that Oubre offers something of similar value to Wiggs, but here are the big differences I see:
1) KOJ is frustratingly inconsistent, and that is a feature of his "energy guy" mode of playing. Contrast with "Mr. Reliable" Wiggs.
2) KOJ has good hands and is disruptive on D, kind of like Bazemore and JTA, whereas Wiggs can be counted on to lockdown the other team's best player.
3) Wiggins learned the system, and is happy to play within it. KOJ seems in some ways diametrically opposed to being a cog in the system.
> Wiggins learned the system, and is happy to play within it. KOJ seems in some ways diametrically opposed to being a cog in the system.
Ridiculous comparison. Wiggins had half a season to learn the system with no expectations. KOJ came in after knee surgery, barely any pre-season (none with Dray), and almost no practice time during the season.
KOJ was playing much better within the system twice when injuries interfered.
Okay, I responded to belilaugh without seeing this comment. I guess I can see it (sorry beli), but I just feel like they each seem to have a different attitude. I could be way off. Does Andrew seem like more of a team player than Kelly to you?
What value does "knowing he was a Warrior" have, and what opportunities were actually there for him to familiarize himself with things, considering much of that period was lockdown?
As a dive and dunk guy, he was great, but with no passing game and not the best sense of positioning, I'm not sure I understand what you mean with your "much better" comment.
I've always been on Wiggins Island, which is to say, I have trust in the Dubs' coaches and GM. He is a vast improvement over Russell, plus we get the (#4 please) draft pick. The salary is high, but Barnes made $22MM and $24MM in the last two years. His defense is absolutely key for post-season success. He'll get even better playing with Klay....
On a side note, have you guys looked at Isaiah Todd from G League Ignite?
The man is 6'10, athletic, and has a silky smooth jumper. His handle is suspect, but his catch and shoot ability (he can hit it on the run, catch and shoot, off one drible, turn around in the post) definitely has a wow factor.
If he had a handle, I'd definitely be looking more into him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp59u4V9lVo&ab_channel=SwishSwish
Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Dray/Poole will help us get a top 7 offense. Klay/Wiggins/Dray/Looney will help us get a top 3 defense. The fact that Wiggins will play a major role for us on both sides of the court is a major plus for me (I'm a big fan of 2 way non-guards).
My greatest concern is how much of Klay will be back. He has been 2 years away from the game. I’m thinking he won’t he Klay of old but maybe we get a 70% version of klay? #managingExpectations
JTA should be listed among that will help deliver a top defense.
Yes, all of this
Nets have 13 assists, Bucks 14…. With the fame almost over… I didn’t watch but seems pretty ugly if you like passing the ball.
It didn’t seem so terrible from my watch of the 4th quarter…
Man if I were a pistons fan (ugh) I would be sooooooo pissed about the Blake Griffin tank job. Arguably worse than the James Harden Memorial Tank The Eff Outta Houston parade. The fact there is not just one but TWO of these guys on the same team makes me really hope the Nets go down in flames.
Absolutely! Kyrie pretty much ruined both Cavs and Celtics as well, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwWndPQLkEo
Man, just watching this again and thinking about that squad. What a group of guys. So glad we got David Lee a ring. IMO his signing was the official turnaround point for this franchise.
As the resident Wiggins skeptic on staff, I have a hard time finding things wrong with how he played this season. Sure, his scoring efficiency could be a whole lot better, but it's definitely not like he's actively hurting us on that end. The defense has been real nice, and I really like how well he smoothly fits into almost any lineup combination.
My only gripes are big picture issues, but it's all sunk costs at this point so I'm comfortably visiting Wiggins Island. These next two seasons are going to be a wild ride, but it tells me a lot that I'm rooting for Wiggins to stick around because of how he's thrived here for the past season and a half. With Klay coming back sometime OTHER than the beginning of the season, the Wiggs/Dray/Steph core has us in good hands.
I'm ready to see them run it back with Klay. Watching these playoffs, it's abundantly clear how wide open the championship chase was.
> Warriors rook James Wiseman, rehabbing after meniscus surgery, on chances of offseason workouts with Kevin Garnett: 'We should. I’m getting better rapidly, at a high rate. I’m getting better each day because I’m taking care of myself. It should still happen. For sure.'
https://twitter.com/MontePooleNBCS/status/1405607016530284544
Wonder if there is any chance that Wiseman could play Summer League?
It's good to be a 19 year old athlete.
Didn't they already rule him out through training camp? But maybe it was a smokescreen to downplay expectations so Wiseman can get ready on his own time and be seen as "recovering ahead of schedule, thanks to all his hard work and dedication"
Yeah that's what I'm wondering, because I thought they ruled out the KG workout this summer too.
There are also plenty of things he can work on with KG before being in good enough shape for summer league.
Wiggins Island isn't one of those full-of-tourists-white-sand-beach-kind-of-shithole, it's an Island made from a volcano. It has substance. It will remain after the next hurricane passes over. It's here to stay. And it doesn't like other NBA small forwards. It swallows them. And then it spits them out. Like it will do to KD next year in the Finals.
Hell yeah. Wiggins Island is Alcatraz
You want to live on Alcatraz?
Lol. I can only assume the warriors version of Alcatraz is quite palatial
Big fan of Wiggs since we picked him up.
Prior to the trade I was against it because of all that I had heard about him-- however, most of that was because of some foggy memory of him wearing a luxurious fanny pack to a pre-game. That stuck in my craw for some reason... Anyways, after the trade I figured I'd look more into him and was gradually getting more and more excited. Probably because the trade had already happened and there was nothing I could do about it. I saw his length, his athleticism, his willingness to drive, his reserved demeanor, the foolishness he dealt with as a kid in Cleveland-- Everything kept pointing to him needing a the right opportunity to turn his career around- if he chose to.
I see areas where he can grow. I hope these small positive steps feed his fire. I like Wiggs and I would love to see what he can do with the Steph, Dray and Klay.
I was so impressed with Wiggs this season. I did an about turned on my early leanings towards trading and very much see him as essential to our success next year. His defence was phenomenal and the fact he’ll get 18-20PPG without breaking a sweat (or appearing to) is damn good.
He’ll take the pressure off Kay as he gets his game fitness back, and should get an increased amount of open looks with the splash Bros charging around. This upcoming season is going to be a fun one to watch from the island.
zion is unhappy in NO... already.
And Doncic seems to have just ran a legendary coach out of Dallas
Nelson & Carlisle. The NBA shakeup continues...
That said, Cuban fired Nelson and Luka said he was disappointed. Seems likely Carlisle leaving isn't on Luka either... unless there is something out there that is more substantial.
Seems like this was the year of superstars fucking things up for franchises...decent or otherwise. I don't know how you make life untenable for one of the best coaches in the league but Dallas managed to do it
It's speculation on my part for sure, but it's the first thing that popped into my mind after reading this earlier this week in the Athletic:
> Doncic’s relationship with his head coach, Rick Carlisle, has been publicly scrutinized since joining his team. It’s expected Carlisle will return next season, multiple league sources say, something Cuban publicly voiced support for last week shortly after the first round defeat.
> “Let me tell you how I look at coaching,” he told ESPN. “You don’t make a change to make a change. Unless you have someone that you know is much, much, much better, the grass is rarely greener on the other side.”
> Multiple sources were surprised to see Cuban’s prompt backing of Carlisle, however, even though Cuban’s support for Carlisle has hardly wavered over the past decade. During the season, it was believed Carlisle’s future could be reconsidered following the season, partly due to a belief Doncic had tuned him out.
> “It was very much up in the air,” one source with intimate knowledge of the situation said.
> Sources say some players have been frustrated with Carlisle after they lost playing time despite doing exactly what they felt he had asked of them, and for stiff rotation patterns, the latter of which they viewed — correctly, team sources confirm — as being dictated directly to him by Voulgaris. Early on, Doncic also disliked Carlisle’s timeouts and frequent calling of plays.
> But Carlisle, who’s “adaptable as a motherfucker,” as one league source put it, began to modify his coaching style as a way of relieving some of the pressure from this sensitive situation. Beyond Carlisle’s obvious coaching acumen, he has always been able and willing to, in essence, read the room when it came to which personal battles he could win and which ones he couldn’t. This was no different.
Another one, this time no paywall:
> The tension between Carlisle and 22-year-old superstar Luka Doncic had increasingly become concerning within the Mavs organization, sources said. Doncic showed up Carlisle on several occasions this season, such as making animated gestures on the court when he disagreed with a decision or yelling at Carlisle in front of assistant coaches and teammates.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31654042/rick-carlisle-says-return-dallas-mavericks-coach-13-seasons
And this might be unfair to Doncic but he whines so much to officials, he has a bad relationship with Porzingis, he seemed to be getting noticeably upset sometimes when his teammates made bad plays in that Clipper series. I dunno, super talented but he doesn't seem like the easiest guy to work with.
Certainly not as coachable as Andrew Wiggins! That's my attempt to bring this back to the thread topic lol.
Carlisle resigned so Cuban wouldn't have to fire him.
Poor Pels will likely do everything they can to meet his every whim/desire so he’ll stay....and he’ll leave anyway
"But for most of this season, certain Williamson family members voiced displeasure with the organization. Among the targets of their criticism was Van Gundy, who they felt was too rigid and demanding as head coach, but also with the organization, which they claim did not live up to what they felt should be the standard for a star like Williamson. Numerous opposing league executives had heard the complaints, and they were confirmed by Pelicans officials."
Well, they dumped Van Gundy... guess we will have to wait and see who they hire, presumably someone Zion will like/approve of.
SVG was probably the worst possible choice for the young team they had. Still can't believe he was hired. Glad they got rid of him.
Jeez... The whole "for a star like Williamson" makes my stomach churn...
Just a classic case of a player thinking they are more valuable than the name on their jersey. He's right in the short term, but will it hurt the league in the long term?
It does seem to be accelerating that players are just going where they really want. Now, it's gonna be hilarious when the Zion goes to the Knicks and the Knicks do Knick things and fail to "live up to what they felt should be the standard for a star like Williamson."
Wiggins is like the 15-20th best SF in the league. And in a league where SF is the most important position, that's valuable. He's also the only salary that could be used for ballast if we trade for a superstar. Unfortunately, if said superstar is not a 3, the team all of a sudden could have a huge hole at the most important position in today's NBA. Still there's no arguing 2020 was a successful year for Wiggins. Now get to 40% on 3P%, cut out a few long 2's and you got yourself a player.
20pt per36 in .568 TS% with good defense seems better than average in the league to me.
He doesn't have the handle nor passing to be a star SF sure, but are there 14 of those in the league?
Here's how I would rank it. The problem is how hard it is to classify some of these dudes' positions:
Tier 1: KD, Lebron, Kawhi, Giannis
Tier 2: PG13, Tatum, Butler, Middleton
Tier 3: MPJ, Brown, Bridges, Harris, Ingles
Tier 4: Batum, Jerami Grant, Crowder, Bogdonavic, Bogdonavic, Barnes, Wiggins, Hayward, Ingram
Could you quibble and say some guys are actually 2's or 4's? Of course. Positionless basketball. But if you offered me a 1-1 swap not counting salary considerations I'd take everybody in Tiers 1-3 and consider those in tier 4 to replace Wiggins at SF for the Dubs.
It has been established that Wiggins' defense could be called "elite." With his reliable 18 points on offense, I actually have a hard time believing there are that many SFs that are ahead of him. This slightly-outdated list has him at #12, and it was written before this past season:
https://www.persources.com/ranking-top-30-small-forwards-2020-2021-nba-season/
It's so nuts when people talk about trading Wiggs+Wise like it's no big thing. Wiggs alongside the splash bros (read: with Klay) is almost certainly an even more loose, confident version of what we've seen, both on O and D. To compare what we have with him vs DLo is ridiculous on the face of it: DLo should just be called Lo- he got no D!
I know there are folks here who think that Oubre offers something of similar value to Wiggs, but here are the big differences I see:
1) KOJ is frustratingly inconsistent, and that is a feature of his "energy guy" mode of playing. Contrast with "Mr. Reliable" Wiggs.
2) KOJ has good hands and is disruptive on D, kind of like Bazemore and JTA, whereas Wiggs can be counted on to lockdown the other team's best player.
3) Wiggins learned the system, and is happy to play within it. KOJ seems in some ways diametrically opposed to being a cog in the system.
> Wiggins learned the system, and is happy to play within it. KOJ seems in some ways diametrically opposed to being a cog in the system.
Ridiculous comparison. Wiggins had half a season to learn the system with no expectations. KOJ came in after knee surgery, barely any pre-season (none with Dray), and almost no practice time during the season.
KOJ was playing much better within the system twice when injuries interfered.
If you’re referring to last season as Wiggins’ “half a season”, it was 12 games.
12 is way more than zero. Plus all the practice time before the first shutdown, and practice time running up to restarting.
Oubre had only 55 games this season, so that's almost a quarter of a "season" if you want to look at it that way.
Wiggins also had the "Dubble".
Okay, I responded to belilaugh without seeing this comment. I guess I can see it (sorry beli), but I just feel like they each seem to have a different attitude. I could be way off. Does Andrew seem like more of a team player than Kelly to you?
12 games plus like 9 months
9 months of what?!
9 months of COVID-extended offseason, knowing he was a Warrior and familiarizing himself with the principles of the system.
Eh, I concede a little bit (see my response to Abaddon above)
What value does "knowing he was a Warrior" have, and what opportunities were actually there for him to familiarize himself with things, considering much of that period was lockdown?
As a dive and dunk guy, he was great, but with no passing game and not the best sense of positioning, I'm not sure I understand what you mean with your "much better" comment.
Dude is good.
I've always been on Wiggins Island, which is to say, I have trust in the Dubs' coaches and GM. He is a vast improvement over Russell, plus we get the (#4 please) draft pick. The salary is high, but Barnes made $22MM and $24MM in the last two years. His defense is absolutely key for post-season success. He'll get even better playing with Klay....
Wiggins doesn't win Finals MVP until 2023. 2022 belongs to Steph. Just sayin...
And then Wiseman wins Finals MVP in 2024. Keeping it going....