Good win for the Jazz but I think the Clippers will win that series. I watched a lot of fatigue-related Ls for the Warriors this season and that's what I thought happened to the Clippers tonight. Cruised in the first half but then the 7 game series and altitude caught up with them against the fresher Jazz. Barely even saw Kawhi try to take over at the end, I don't think he had the legs. I think that might be why Lue used such a big rotation too.
Jazz definitely have one of the best playoff crowds. Hope Conley gets back soon.
What do you guys think our defense will rank without draymond? Say we had curry, Thompson, wiggins, a league average four and looney would we still be a top ten defense?
Why? If a Jazz fan asked what their defense would look like without Gobert, it would be perfectly reasonable for other Jazz fans to respond with some degree of "Ew, gross" or "Why would I want to imagine that?" - do you disagree?
I think looney with his switching and vertical spacing is a solid component in our defense as well. That plus klay and wiggins out there might possibly still be a top ten defense
Jokic had a historically good offensive year and carried that team. Yeah I think Steph should have won it, but Jokic is a great choice.
If Embiid came in second (which he probably did), that's more of a disappointment to me, he missed too many games and was often minutes limited when he wasn't, IMO.
Jun 8, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
I've been a huge Looney fan for years now. It amazes me how he's continued to be one of the most underrated bigs in the NBA. I'm disappointed that those glimmers of a midrange or 3pt shot he shows here and there haven't developed into a more reliable (Zaza-esque) "you leave me, I'll cash it" shooting threat, but his defense, rebounding, and screening have all improved on their already high levels. There are precious few players in the league who can stop Harden *and* stop Embiid—where "stop" is defined as defending well enough to make them inefficient, but Looney is a member of that elite club.
There's a lot of wishful thinking in this organization about Wiseman becoming Looney++ but I think that's simplistic and probably misguided. Looney's skillset is not so easily learned or copied; aside from the very high BBIQ and nearly religious level of discipline, his frame also an important part of what makes him so effective: those comically broad shoulders and inspector gadget arms give him the ability to contest shots inside and out without fouling, and his weight and strength gives him the stability to hold his ground against all but the largest centers while still being quick enough that dudes can't step around him, either. It took a few seasons to get that balance right—remember in season 2 or so when he showed up with a crazy amount of muscle but moved too slow? I don't think Wiseman or anyone else will be able to do all the things Looney does at a similar level even a season or two from now. (Wiseman's jumper, handle, and vertical spacing are already better than Looney's though, so he can still become a net upgrade even if he's giving up some weaknesses on defense.)
I'm incredibly thankful that the Warriors organization, in their rush to duck below the luxury tax in 2020, managed to keep Looney here despite his $8mm doubtlessly looking like a necessary cut with the max contract guys eating up most of the cap room, especially with how poorly he was playing with injuries that year. And I hope he continues to be a reliable part of the Warriors rotation for years to come.
What do you think MIL would pay to have hometown Loon on their team right now? I agree, last thing we need JW to be is Loon 2.0. Between Green, Ron Adams, Loon and what looks like future visits from KG, JW is in goods hands and I believe his defensive game will grow in time. I am sure next year will be mostly about staying vertical, being in the right position defensively and not fouling. (oh yeah, rebound, rebound, rebound) In other words, don't get killed on the defensive end. I think JW's real contributions can come sooner on the offensive side, where running the floor in transition, sitting in the dunker's spot and getting up 3-4 threes a game. In the meantime, Looney is there to come in at any point and do what Looney does: set things straight. Kerr can squeeze as much juice out of JW (and hopefully Chriss) until things get sour and he needs the adult on the court in Loon. Would love to see Looney as our big man coach way down the road. And yes, hope he can stick around a few more years.
Totally agree, I think people take Looney's skills for granted a bit if they think Wiseman can pick them up with time. There are 30+ year old centers in the league without an understanding of angles and timing like Looney (shout out JaVale McGee).
I'd like the idea of re-signing Chriss a lot better if they traded Wiseman, personally. As it stands they probably need a bigger guy who is either a better rim protector or a better shooter, since you can't count on Wiseman to be a positive player next season.
I think you go with all three this year and maybe whittle it down after the season to two when they figure out what they have in Wiseman. If he’s the next KG, they’ll have sold low if they trade him now.
Not sure what you mean? I didn't say anything about anyone's rebounding lol. Although I wouldn't compare Chriss and Wiseman's rebounding rates, Chriss was playing a lot of PF before he got to the Warriors, and I'm sure it's not a coincidence that his rebounding per 36 is better on the Warriors than it was in his previous stops. That's also my issue with people comparing Wiseman's numbers to KG's rookie numbers, KG was (amazingly) playing SF back then.
But that is all a tangent as far as what I was talking about. I'm saying that Chriss and Looney would be a nice set of backups if they had a starting caliber center. But with Wiseman on the roster, they still have a need for a starting center and I don't think Chriss is the guy for that role. I'd prefer to trade Wiseman and re-sign Chriss, personally. It's not an anti-Chriss thing.
He’s the same size as Bam, so he’s not going to out-muscle the biggest 5’s, but he brings great length, a motor and freakish athleticism to his defense and that freakish athleticism creates mismatches on the other side.
He really put it together last season after bouncing around the league and the Warriors would be wise to bring him in now while they can likely get him for the minimum.
I'm an advocate of Chriss/Looney/JW + Green (and EP mismatches). You get the reliable defender and system guy in Loon, our one true big guy with JW (and who isn't up for getting a big bag of hot buttered popcorn and watching his development?), and Chriss knows the system and and brings a lot of decent skills across the board. What is it, 9m and 5m tied up in JW & Loon? Warriors aren't going go far over Vet Min + a pinch of the TPMLE for a 3rd center. If you look at the free agent market for centers, what FA center is going to want to come into THIS center rotation for that price? Sure, there are better bigs out there, but few better options that would actually work. And let's not discount that Chriss still has a growth curve at his age. And his underrated play making from the high post and his ability to be a vertical threat are the 2 areas where I feel he can impact the team the most. 2nd Unit Lineup: Poole, Baze, Wiggs, JTA, Chriss. Seems pretty capable to me. And can't judge Chriss by his +/- from the 15-50 season. In the end, it's Chriss vs. aging Vet and I'll take the kid with more hops and room fro growth.
If you are a believer in Real Plus-Minus stats, this is a low end center rotation with the exception of Draymond. Chriss, Loon, & JW have negative plus-minus stats.
Like most injuries, it de-ends on the nature and severity. Bogut had a broken arm that changed him forever as a player. That Chriss’ injury kept him out for the entire season makes me think it was on the bad side.
Jun 8, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
Looney is amazing. If Wiseman just provides what Looney does, but with better speed, size, athleticism, lob threat, and durability, he's already a perennial All Star. You give him a jumper and you're talking MVP candidate.
I'm a huge Wiseman booster, but it will take a lot of time with Looney to build those things that come naturally to Kevon. Personally, I'm hoping that the Dubs can get KG to take over the Jarron Collins coaching role. Probably a crazy longshot, but shoot for the moon, right?
For sure! There are not many that have it figured out like Looney...
I was responding to the "They obviously want more out of Wiseman than Looney" part of the article. My point is more that if Wiseman ONLY develops "Looney skills" from here forward, he'll be exactly what the Warriors will have dreamed when they selected him.
That point Dr Tom made about Looney not being a "leave him out there" center was really interesting to me and I'm glad Daniel followed up on it.
I need to process for a minute but I wonder of Looney is aging out of that? He certainly seemed to become something close to it towards the tail end of the season. Yeah it was forced by necessity but Loon had some huge games (again, great point out) against players like Embiid and Jokic )- guys that would have bad matchups before
Jun 8, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
Great article. How can you not love Looney? Best defender in NBA history with a 3" vertical leap. When he retires, he should set up a Big Man's Camp for setting screens. His physical limitations have given him one advantage over other bigs: he doesn't bite on pump fakes, ie, a shooter can't get him in the air 'cuz, well, he can't get in the air. So his ground bound defense is a clinic in footwork, positioning and well timed verticality principles where his wingspan makes itself known.
Beyond the screen setting and positional defense in the lane, plays and details that don't jump off the page when watching a game, his D in space on the perimeter against guards is mind boggling. His hedging to prevent drives and closeouts on shots are a thing of beauty. So how does a ground bound big with sloth like reflexes flummox the most dynamic scoring guards in the league? Well, I have a theory.
A one on one on the perimeter between a big and a small quickly becomes a game of cat and mouse. Two living creatures measuring each other's each and every movement, looking for the counter move, looking for the fake, looking for the opportunity to strike. Both the cat and the mouse are fast with great reflexes and this creates a great tension and much anticipation if you happen to be a viewer. The problem is, Looney is so slow of foot and general body movement, it confounds his opponent. Instead of Cat & Mouse, Looney plays Cat & Moose. Like that big ol' Moose you come across on a country road who doesn't seem to mind that he is taking up half of the road, Looney's presence just confuses his opponents. I mean, what do you do with a freakin' Moose? He's just standing there a few feet in front of you, one arm held up towards you like some giant antlers, not really moving, just this big object in the middle of the road. It looks like you should be able to easily drive around him, but your just a little mystified by him because you are wondering how he ever got onto the basketball court because he doesn't play like all the other tasty mice. Meanwhile, the shot clock has been ticking down and before you know it, your stepping back for an ill advised jumper with a big hand in your face.
So that's my theory. Looney plays Cat & Moose and the cats just don't know what the hell to do with a moose. Of course, I will have to drive up to Vancouver with my cat and a basketball to put this theory to the test. Until then ...
I remember playing against a faster, younger guy. He threw a fake a me and then went back the other way. I was too slow to respond to the fake, so I was in good position....
Jun 8, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
We'll see about the depth of loyalty if he opts out of his contract. In a lot of ways, Kerr's system, and the Warriors front court, is perfect for Looney as he doesn't have to score all that much and given his past health issues it is probably better if he doesn't have to be on the floor for more than 20 minutes per game.
Seems like the league doesn't have the same appreciation of Looney that the Dubs have. Expected him to get a better offer a couple of years ago, but Dubs got him for a bargain ($14.6 million/3 years). He's guaranteed through 21-22, so let's put off talk about loyalty for the time being.
Jun 8, 2021Liked by punk basketball, Daniel Hardee
What a nice article to start my day off with.
I just love watching Looney's game. Such a pleasure. I don't know that I've ever seen a player who's so consistently in the right position on the court to get the rebound, set the screen, or whatever. Rarely makes mistakes. Makes everyone around him look better. Just the epitome of a team player.
Looney is the ultimate pro. He steadies the whole team.
Good win for the Jazz but I think the Clippers will win that series. I watched a lot of fatigue-related Ls for the Warriors this season and that's what I thought happened to the Clippers tonight. Cruised in the first half but then the 7 game series and altitude caught up with them against the fresher Jazz. Barely even saw Kawhi try to take over at the end, I don't think he had the legs. I think that might be why Lue used such a big rotation too.
Jazz definitely have one of the best playoff crowds. Hope Conley gets back soon.
They won without their 3rd best player tonight despite shooting just 34% from 3. I'd say things look positive for them.
You just hate the Jazz for no reason lol.
Pff, Stephen Curry sucks. Couldn't even win MVP. I hope he sees this.
Washed up, maybe we should trade him and the Minnesota pick for Grayson Allen and rebuild
Just vomited in my mouth at that thought
Looney is amazing and I 100% still believe in his jumper lol
What do you guys think our defense will rank without draymond? Say we had curry, Thompson, wiggins, a league average four and looney would we still be a top ten defense?
What does a "league average four" look like? Is there somewhere we can find any kind of quantitative representation of positional league averages?
What a horrid thought exercise.
What a horrid response
Why? If a Jazz fan asked what their defense would look like without Gobert, it would be perfectly reasonable for other Jazz fans to respond with some degree of "Ew, gross" or "Why would I want to imagine that?" - do you disagree?
Curry klay wiggins oubre looney where does that defense rank
Probably middle of the road
I think looney with his switching and vertical spacing is a solid component in our defense as well. That plus klay and wiggins out there might possibly still be a top ten defense
Seriously 🤢
I guess I’d say our defense would rank... rankly 🤮
I feel you but better shooting and less turnovers would have our defense better too
Please show your work.
Less turnovers + better shooting = less fastbreaks, less momentum shifts, more halfcourt defense
I think looney does too tho
I’m pretty sure you are insinuating our offense would suffer, though you could be talking about our souls as well, or our eyes.
How does Looney fare against AD? Looking at our division and conference; that's the one I possibly worry about the most
and here's the full count
> @TheSteinLine
Full MVP balloting results: Jokic gets 91 first-place votes; Curry next with five.
https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1402411588120944643
Chris Paul getting 139 total points to Devon Booker’s *zero* may be the most laughable thing about that vote.
Did you miss the part where rose got 1 first place vote lmao
Wait, fans can vote for mvp?
Only New York fans, because ...
😁
I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse
*Devin
Wow, a big, slow center won the league MVP in the year 2021...
> @ShamsCharania
Denver Nuggets star Nikola Jokic has won the 2020-21 NBA MVP award, sources tell
I still don't understand how both of the following things can be true...
1) Jokic deserves the award
2) Curry had almost as good a season as his unanimous, but with far less support and far greater defensive swarming
...but I think I'm just going to have to deal with this paradox
Jokic had a historically good offensive year and carried that team. Yeah I think Steph should have won it, but Jokic is a great choice.
If Embiid came in second (which he probably did), that's more of a disappointment to me, he missed too many games and was often minutes limited when he wasn't, IMO.
Record matters
I've been a huge Looney fan for years now. It amazes me how he's continued to be one of the most underrated bigs in the NBA. I'm disappointed that those glimmers of a midrange or 3pt shot he shows here and there haven't developed into a more reliable (Zaza-esque) "you leave me, I'll cash it" shooting threat, but his defense, rebounding, and screening have all improved on their already high levels. There are precious few players in the league who can stop Harden *and* stop Embiid—where "stop" is defined as defending well enough to make them inefficient, but Looney is a member of that elite club.
There's a lot of wishful thinking in this organization about Wiseman becoming Looney++ but I think that's simplistic and probably misguided. Looney's skillset is not so easily learned or copied; aside from the very high BBIQ and nearly religious level of discipline, his frame also an important part of what makes him so effective: those comically broad shoulders and inspector gadget arms give him the ability to contest shots inside and out without fouling, and his weight and strength gives him the stability to hold his ground against all but the largest centers while still being quick enough that dudes can't step around him, either. It took a few seasons to get that balance right—remember in season 2 or so when he showed up with a crazy amount of muscle but moved too slow? I don't think Wiseman or anyone else will be able to do all the things Looney does at a similar level even a season or two from now. (Wiseman's jumper, handle, and vertical spacing are already better than Looney's though, so he can still become a net upgrade even if he's giving up some weaknesses on defense.)
I'm incredibly thankful that the Warriors organization, in their rush to duck below the luxury tax in 2020, managed to keep Looney here despite his $8mm doubtlessly looking like a necessary cut with the max contract guys eating up most of the cap room, especially with how poorly he was playing with injuries that year. And I hope he continues to be a reliable part of the Warriors rotation for years to come.
What do you think MIL would pay to have hometown Loon on their team right now? I agree, last thing we need JW to be is Loon 2.0. Between Green, Ron Adams, Loon and what looks like future visits from KG, JW is in goods hands and I believe his defensive game will grow in time. I am sure next year will be mostly about staying vertical, being in the right position defensively and not fouling. (oh yeah, rebound, rebound, rebound) In other words, don't get killed on the defensive end. I think JW's real contributions can come sooner on the offensive side, where running the floor in transition, sitting in the dunker's spot and getting up 3-4 threes a game. In the meantime, Looney is there to come in at any point and do what Looney does: set things straight. Kerr can squeeze as much juice out of JW (and hopefully Chriss) until things get sour and he needs the adult on the court in Loon. Would love to see Looney as our big man coach way down the road. And yes, hope he can stick around a few more years.
Totally agree, I think people take Looney's skills for granted a bit if they think Wiseman can pick them up with time. There are 30+ year old centers in the league without an understanding of angles and timing like Looney (shout out JaVale McGee).
Perfect backup center. Just need to go find a starting center.
I’m still hoping we can get after Horford after an OKC buy out
Marc gasol been throwing a lot of shade at the Lakers recently lol
Chriss
I'd like the idea of re-signing Chriss a lot better if they traded Wiseman, personally. As it stands they probably need a bigger guy who is either a better rim protector or a better shooter, since you can't count on Wiseman to be a positive player next season.
I think you go with all three this year and maybe whittle it down after the season to two when they figure out what they have in Wiseman. If he’s the next KG, they’ll have sold low if they trade him now.
Are you under the impression that Chriss is a better rebounder? Their career rebounding rates are nearly identical, as are their per36 numbers.
Not sure what you mean? I didn't say anything about anyone's rebounding lol. Although I wouldn't compare Chriss and Wiseman's rebounding rates, Chriss was playing a lot of PF before he got to the Warriors, and I'm sure it's not a coincidence that his rebounding per 36 is better on the Warriors than it was in his previous stops. That's also my issue with people comparing Wiseman's numbers to KG's rookie numbers, KG was (amazingly) playing SF back then.
But that is all a tangent as far as what I was talking about. I'm saying that Chriss and Looney would be a nice set of backups if they had a starting caliber center. But with Wiseman on the roster, they still have a need for a starting center and I don't think Chriss is the guy for that role. I'd prefer to trade Wiseman and re-sign Chriss, personally. It's not an anti-Chriss thing.
Is he good/big enough vs the big body centers like KAT and Jokic and AD?
He’s the same size as Bam, so he’s not going to out-muscle the biggest 5’s, but he brings great length, a motor and freakish athleticism to his defense and that freakish athleticism creates mismatches on the other side.
He really put it together last season after bouncing around the league and the Warriors would be wise to bring him in now while they can likely get him for the minimum.
Center rotation of Chriss/Looney/Wiseman/Dray seems pretty great to me!
I'm an advocate of Chriss/Looney/JW + Green (and EP mismatches). You get the reliable defender and system guy in Loon, our one true big guy with JW (and who isn't up for getting a big bag of hot buttered popcorn and watching his development?), and Chriss knows the system and and brings a lot of decent skills across the board. What is it, 9m and 5m tied up in JW & Loon? Warriors aren't going go far over Vet Min + a pinch of the TPMLE for a 3rd center. If you look at the free agent market for centers, what FA center is going to want to come into THIS center rotation for that price? Sure, there are better bigs out there, but few better options that would actually work. And let's not discount that Chriss still has a growth curve at his age. And his underrated play making from the high post and his ability to be a vertical threat are the 2 areas where I feel he can impact the team the most. 2nd Unit Lineup: Poole, Baze, Wiggs, JTA, Chriss. Seems pretty capable to me. And can't judge Chriss by his +/- from the 15-50 season. In the end, it's Chriss vs. aging Vet and I'll take the kid with more hops and room fro growth.
If you are a believer in Real Plus-Minus stats, this is a low end center rotation with the exception of Draymond. Chriss, Loon, & JW have negative plus-minus stats.
Chriss and Wiseman coming off significant injuries and Looney with a significant injury history, they need a more durable rotation imo
Broken leg really isn't significant right?
Like most injuries, it de-ends on the nature and severity. Bogut had a broken arm that changed him forever as a player. That Chriss’ injury kept him out for the entire season makes me think it was on the bad side.
Boguts was pretty gruesome though. That being said we didn't see chriss'
If I'm Chriss, I look elsewhere first... my minutes are going to be given to Wiseman as soon as he's shown enough competence to take them
Except the Warriors are the one team with which he’s found success
That’s true, so there’s hope…
Looney is amazing. If Wiseman just provides what Looney does, but with better speed, size, athleticism, lob threat, and durability, he's already a perennial All Star. You give him a jumper and you're talking MVP candidate.
I'm a huge Wiseman booster, but it will take a lot of time with Looney to build those things that come naturally to Kevon. Personally, I'm hoping that the Dubs can get KG to take over the Jarron Collins coaching role. Probably a crazy longshot, but shoot for the moon, right?
For sure! There are not many that have it figured out like Looney...
I was responding to the "They obviously want more out of Wiseman than Looney" part of the article. My point is more that if Wiseman ONLY develops "Looney skills" from here forward, he'll be exactly what the Warriors will have dreamed when they selected him.
But Looney didn't develop his Looney skillset until his 3rd & 4th season. So patience is key.
BUT STEPHS WINDOW IS CLOSING!?!??!!?!?!?!?!
Totally agreed!
Love Looney and hope he stays. Every good team needs unsung, hard-working guys who do the dirty work. Seems like a great teammate.
It's amazing he's only 25. Anyone know if his hip condition threatens his career longevity, or if it only limits his minutes per game?
That point Dr Tom made about Looney not being a "leave him out there" center was really interesting to me and I'm glad Daniel followed up on it.
I need to process for a minute but I wonder of Looney is aging out of that? He certainly seemed to become something close to it towards the tail end of the season. Yeah it was forced by necessity but Loon had some huge games (again, great point out) against players like Embiid and Jokic )- guys that would have bad matchups before
Great article. How can you not love Looney? Best defender in NBA history with a 3" vertical leap. When he retires, he should set up a Big Man's Camp for setting screens. His physical limitations have given him one advantage over other bigs: he doesn't bite on pump fakes, ie, a shooter can't get him in the air 'cuz, well, he can't get in the air. So his ground bound defense is a clinic in footwork, positioning and well timed verticality principles where his wingspan makes itself known.
Beyond the screen setting and positional defense in the lane, plays and details that don't jump off the page when watching a game, his D in space on the perimeter against guards is mind boggling. His hedging to prevent drives and closeouts on shots are a thing of beauty. So how does a ground bound big with sloth like reflexes flummox the most dynamic scoring guards in the league? Well, I have a theory.
A one on one on the perimeter between a big and a small quickly becomes a game of cat and mouse. Two living creatures measuring each other's each and every movement, looking for the counter move, looking for the fake, looking for the opportunity to strike. Both the cat and the mouse are fast with great reflexes and this creates a great tension and much anticipation if you happen to be a viewer. The problem is, Looney is so slow of foot and general body movement, it confounds his opponent. Instead of Cat & Mouse, Looney plays Cat & Moose. Like that big ol' Moose you come across on a country road who doesn't seem to mind that he is taking up half of the road, Looney's presence just confuses his opponents. I mean, what do you do with a freakin' Moose? He's just standing there a few feet in front of you, one arm held up towards you like some giant antlers, not really moving, just this big object in the middle of the road. It looks like you should be able to easily drive around him, but your just a little mystified by him because you are wondering how he ever got onto the basketball court because he doesn't play like all the other tasty mice. Meanwhile, the shot clock has been ticking down and before you know it, your stepping back for an ill advised jumper with a big hand in your face.
So that's my theory. Looney plays Cat & Moose and the cats just don't know what the hell to do with a moose. Of course, I will have to drive up to Vancouver with my cat and a basketball to put this theory to the test. Until then ...
Perfect description of how Looney played Harden a couple of years ago in the playoffs.
> Looney is so slow of foot and general body movement, it confounds his opponent
Hahaha, this is exactly how I feel... his slow lumbering movements make his opponents think they can't fake him out
I remember playing against a faster, younger guy. He threw a fake a me and then went back the other way. I was too slow to respond to the fake, so I was in good position....
Cat and Moose 😂😂😂 I love your prose
Tx. Anything to avoid working!
We'll see about the depth of loyalty if he opts out of his contract. In a lot of ways, Kerr's system, and the Warriors front court, is perfect for Looney as he doesn't have to score all that much and given his past health issues it is probably better if he doesn't have to be on the floor for more than 20 minutes per game.
Seems like the league doesn't have the same appreciation of Looney that the Dubs have. Expected him to get a better offer a couple of years ago, but Dubs got him for a bargain ($14.6 million/3 years). He's guaranteed through 21-22, so let's put off talk about loyalty for the time being.
Oops - just saw he had a player option for 21-22. Hopefully he stays put.
What a nice article to start my day off with.
I just love watching Looney's game. Such a pleasure. I don't know that I've ever seen a player who's so consistently in the right position on the court to get the rebound, set the screen, or whatever. Rarely makes mistakes. Makes everyone around him look better. Just the epitome of a team player.
That is so true that he's almost always in the right spot at the right time. Thanks for reading!