I am sold on ETHAN THOMPSON. Another 20+ PPG night, in 27 mins PT, while shooting 54-40-100, grabbing 11 REBS/4 OR, dishing 4 assists, AND, getting 3 steals...I like him...
Explain 1 Mystery. Season 1, Episode 1. What happened to Andrew Wiggins? Reader's Digest Version.
What we know. Baseline Wiggins is a super talent inside a stoic, quite, emotionally hidden introvert. We know he has had some personal "non-basketball related" issues off the court starting in 2022-23 when he only played 37 games. Statistically, we saw a drop in production in 2023-24. Although he only played 37 games in 2022-23, his numbers that year were in line with his All-Star season. Statistically speaking, the giant "THUD" we heard happened in 2023-24.
There are two mysteries. One is the "THUD". "Dude, what happened?" The other, which we often overlook, is WTF happened in 2021-22? Wiggins became '2-way Wiggs' and DubNation was freaking out because he was actually smiling! Who was that man? He was a revelation.
The popular opinion is that the "Thud" was the result of Wiggins being Wiggins, reverting to his old unemotional uninvolved self and that the All-Star Wiggs was the product of the supremacy of the Warriors' organizational basketball culture.
Problems. I think we have to rule out "off-the-court" issues because Wiggs only played 37 games in 2022-23 due to those issues, yet statistically, in those 37 games, produced numbers equal to his All-Star season. I also believe the "Thud" of 2023-24 fell well beyond "Baseline Wiggs" - which for better or worse - is still a pretty damn good player. This begs the question, what was different between 2022-23 & 2023-24? Finally, if the Warriors' superior basketball culture was the reason for 2-way Wiggs, All-Star Wiggs, in 2021-22, why did it not work in 2023-24?
Here is an alternative theory. It starts in the locker room in Boston in 2022, Jordan Poole and Wiggins are doused in champagne yelling, "I'm gonna get a bag, you're gonna get a bag!" Now to be clear, I am not suggesting money plays any part. Especially for Wiggins because, unlike Poole, he doesn't have enough room in his house for the money he has already made in the NBA. What I want folks to consider is the friendship on display in that moment between those two utterly opposite human beings. Wiggins: quiet, stoic, emotionally hidden. Poole: brash, outgoing, irrationally and annoyingly self-confident. If you can wrap your brain around that relationship, you may solve the mystery.
Hypothetical scenario. You work in a business with your girlfriend. The business is real happy with her work, it seems like she will be an important part of the 'team' moving forward. One day, another employee, one who had been with the business for a long time, punches your girlfriend in the face. Who knows, maybe she stole her chicken Caesar salad out of the break room fridge. Regardless, rather than being punished, the perpetrator not only doesn't get punished, but receives Employee of the Month for past work done. Your girlfriend then gets a promise for a 1000% raise in 1 year and that seems to be compensation to make up for what will be one long uncomfortable year with everyone working together. Everyone knows that the perpetrator is in the last year of their own contract and there is a chance that that person may be gone soon - which to you and your girlfriend is a dream come true. Instead, the business owners and GM turn a blind eye, fire your girlfriend before her raise takes effect and promotes the perpetrator to be your new supervisor with a new 4-yr contract.
Welcome to Andrew Wiggins' world.
I am pretty sure that almost everyone has had a job working for some A-holes and can admit to not feeling particularly committed or invested in their own work. We tend to forget that these are people like everyone else and they have relationships and feelings and life events and JOBS. And driving to an arena and putting on a uniform and shooting a basketball is a job. And if I am Andrew Wiggins, BFF with Jordan Poole, regardless of the golden history, the sweet magic of the Warrior's culture prior, since 'The Punch' and 'The Way it was Handled', I could give a rat's ass about the Golden State Warriors.
That may sound a little strong, especially for a guy who is getting paid $25mil a year. But we have to look at the Andrew Wiggins that we saw for years, many years, many many years if you live in Minnesota, and the Andrew Wiggins we saw on the bench, smiling and laughing next to Jordan Poole on the bench.
So, the theory is this: it wasn't the Warriors' culture that brought the best out of Wiggins. It was his relationship with Poole. Imagine Wiggins as a pimped out Jaguar, but with a dead battery. For better or worse, Wiggins seems to be the type of person that needs an accelerator, an outside agent to activate him, a jump start to get the engine to turn over, a personal relationship that gave him permission, or the security, to engage emotionally in his job. It's like Wiggins got into the slip-stream that was Jordan Poole's gregarious and irrational self-confidence, and slingshotted his way to the checkered flag, pulling the GS Warriors to a Championship Ricky Bobby style.
When I think about Wiggins, I don't think of all the negative things about his game on the court. I think of him smiling. You need Ocean's Eleven to unlock All-Star Wiggs and I believe Jordan Poole was Danny Ocean. I believe Jordan Poole played a greater role in our 2021-22 Chip than we tend to believe. I believe Jordan Poole's greatest assist was his friendship with Andrew Wiggins and it was Jordan Poole, not the vaunted Warriors' culture, that gave Wiggins the permission to let his freak flag fly and play to the level of his natural abilities.
On July 6th, 2023, Jordan Poole was traded to the Washington Whatevs.
On July 8th, 2023, Draymond Green signed a new 4-yr deal.
What happened to Wiggins in 2023-24?
Who knows? All I can say for sure is I am hankering for a Scooby snack.
I believe this movie. Your explanation resonates for me, and I've wondered if the Punch and aftermath was part of what tanked Wiggs. Sure wish he could find another really good friend. It would be better for him, and the Ws could really use 2022 Wiggins.
Alright, this was 8 hours ago and there's a new thread so this is unlikely to be seen much. And before I go into all the reasons this might not be true I will point out that, since no one, possibly INCLUDING Wiggins knows why he had a bad year last season, it is possible that you are right. However you have taken sooo many leaps to get there I think it is unlikely that you have arrived at the correct explanation.
1) We actually have a reason which is that he had personal family issues and Wiggins is the type of guy (seems to be, anyway) to let that get to him.
2) He actually started playing more like 22 Wiggs towards the end of the season and then dropped off again. You can pick stretches where his stats look almost like 22. It's cherry picking but you can make an argument that he was coming around toward the end of the season. Well why did he drop off again? One reasonable explanation, backed up by the recent Olympics brouhaha, is that he hurt his ankle, which we didn't know at the time, but do now.
3) Wiggins actually signed and undervalued contract, at the time, because he liked the Ws organization so much and they have reinforced that, IMHO, be being SO tolerant and understanding of his family situation over the last 2 seasons. While I am sure he was unhappy with the Punch and loss of Poole, I think we ought to concede that his positive treatment by the team would temper that somewhat
4) You reveal in another reply in this thread, that you have been in an analogous situation in which you were Wiggins. I suppose it's natural to equate the two but you can't possibly know enough about how Wiggins thinks or feels to make that anything other than a wild guess that Poole leaving was the cause.
I have no idea what happened to Wiggins. But what I did not know was his close relationship with Poole. JK also got very close to Poole.
It does not matter whether it is Poole or someone else a team is a group of individuals that works together for a cause. If you have too many egos or bad vibes, no matter the talent things start to fray. One unhappy player can spoil the synergy of the team.
Playing with Joy and intention for the whole is a thing. We are getting to see that in summer league. When I look at players I also look at their interviews, their interactions with their team mates. By that metric and his skill set any team is going to be better off adding an Ethan Thompson or a Gary Payton over a Jordan Poole or a Wiggins. It is not just Curry's skill set it is his committment and Joy. There are so many intangibles that go into a team. The Warriors Sunmer league shows that teamwork works, ambition and joy matter. And that the league over values young players. I over value committment to the team. Rather have fewer stars and more people who are grateful and work hard. If you have ever had to lead a diverse group of people you know exactly what I mean. Poole wanted to be Curry--the Star---his attitude rubbed off on JK and subsequenty got straightened out. Thompson, rightly or wrongly got envious too. Always in the shadow of Steph and not getting treated with respect. (Respect often is codespeak for $$$).
I said in the middle of last season I would rather see players work and play hard and put their heart into it and lose, than watch a bunch of grumbly old men with bad attitudes play poorly win or lose.
I believe Dunleavy deserves credit for looking at stats but also for looking at attitudes. Beekman and Lindy show he's paying attention to what's between the ears. Attitude, work ethic, hunger vs ego, entitlement, greed. Hats off to him.
Personally, I'm not interested in knowing the inner workings of Wiggins head. I just know he hasn't produced in two seasons and has been AWOL, literally at times. I have to believe the Warriors would like to trade him but can't find a good enough deal to do so. Logically, it makes no sense to keep someone on your roster who is not earning their hefty paycheck any longer.
Honestly, if it wasn't for you guys I wound never have known that Wiggs and Poole were besties off the court since I don't follow these guys outside the game of basketball, so this theory sounds like it could be true based on your observations and if so, how do we get Wiggs to play with joy again? Has that ship sailed along with Jordan Poole?
I'll also add, the trading of JP was his own fault. if he had just played within his role instead of trying to fill Curry's shoes so soon, he'd still be a very big part of this teams future. Watching '22 finals highlights will have you thinking "man, Jordan was balling, wtf happened?!"
Everyone is over playing the importance of that incident. The underlying truth is that Poole was and is a PUNK. What he said to Draymond would have been bad enough even without all of JPs obvious deficiencies as a player or Draymond's decade as a team leader.
I think every Warriors fans wanted to punch JP at least a few times during the season.
Remember that he isn't even a starter for the Wizards, who would love t dump that contract.
As for the relationship with Wigs and JP. Who the fuck knows. Likely not even Wiggins. What I remember most clearly is after Draymond was ejected against Minnesota, Wiggins played well. They he picked up his 3rd foul and was an absolute fucking MONSTER on defense for about 5 minutes before Kerr set him down. Once a fire was lit under his ass, Wiggins is a defensive player of the year and super disruptive. He just needs to the drive to dominate (like the Luka Matchup in 22) about 25 minutes a game and the whole roster will work.
That's definitely a big part of it. But all reports were that things seemed to have gone to Jordan's head. Throughout the pandemic, word was that he was constantly in the gym, was a super hard worker, was coachable, etc.
After the championship and the "we're going to get a bag" episode in the post-game celebration, he seemed to have believed the hype about his play. Then after the Punch and the big contract, his game was very different. He didn't seem to want to play in the flow of the offense anymore. He kept trying to go one-on-one, shooting heat-check 3s at bad moments, became a total turnstile on defense... He looked like he became all about himself.
If we're all just giving our best guesses, I've been in the camp thinking that Wiggins' relationship with Poole is where he found his joy and motivation. When everything went down the way it did, it definitely broke his heart.
Yeah. I mean the thing that struck me most about Wiggins were the moments of joy and laughing and Poole being in the picture. I do believe there was something special there, that Jordan had the key, that the Jordan relationship unlocked Wiggins. It's not a crazy idea. I have experienced this type of relationship first hand. I was the Wiggins character and it was my crazy outgoing best friend that enabled me to engage the world with, as Steve Kerr would say, Force. I emphasize with Wiggins a bit because I was somewhat trapped in myself when I was younger. Not surprising I write on this topic because of some affinity I have for the quiet, stoic and introverted Wiggins.
Hey, we're just fans talking about what happened with an important player on the team. No one really believes they can professional diagnose Wiggs from watching a few video clips. But his drop off is a serious matter for the Warriors, , as is unlocking him again if that is possible.
I wonder if Poole and Wiggins would both do better if they played on the same team again...
What's your explanation? I'm not saying anything is fact. I am looking at statistics, I am looking at recorded events, and I am merely trying to connect the dots. Do you think that Andrew Wiggins, who by all appearances had a great relationship with Jordan Poole, was cool with Jordan getting assaulted? Was he happy his friend was traded rather than Draymond accepting an offer to play for Memphis? Are these guys robots? Do you have a counter theory? Is Wiggins just a shitty basketball player who doesn't care about basketball? If that's it, fine. I'm okay with that. But state your theory and support it with your own observations. Or, rather than criticize, tell me what observations I have made you don't agree with. What did I get wrong? Then we can have a conversation. Otherwise, I have no idea where you are coming from except you are offended by something I have said. Nothing I write is fact. It is merely food to chew on, looking at things from a different perspective, hopefully, if I am lucky, pointing out something that some people haven't thought about. It's just discourse.
My "explanation" is that Wiggins' reasons for doing what he does are none of our business, we'll never know unless he tells us (which seems unlikely), and it matters not at all except to Wiggins. What matters is how he performs and fits in with the Warriors or whatever team he plays with. Just that.
Look, I agree. You don't go to a job application and say, "Yeah, I'm F'ing great, but you have to hire this other guy 'cuz I can't really get into the job without having him around." Straight up, 100% correct, for $25 mil a year we damn well better only be paying for 1 guy, not 2. I am not saying that Andrew Wiggins gets a "Get Out of Jail Free" card for sucking on the basketball court because we traded his BFF. I am only trying to understand "WHY?" Slo-Mo's 3pt% dropped precipitously last year. Why? He had an eye injury. De'Anthony Melton had a rough year last year. Why? He had a back injury. Wiggins was crap last year. Why? Wiggins wasn't crap in 2022-23 when he played, the problem was he only played 37 games. What changed between those two years?
We all saw the punch. I believe there was a second punch that we didn't see, the gut punch to Wiggins, not just from Draymond, but from the entire Warriors organization because of how they dealt with it, or rather, how they swept it under the rug.
Maybe Wiggins didn't care about Jordan getting punched and traded. Maybe his relationship with Poole was fake and he really just hates playing basketball and that's why he sucked. My goal isn't to give anyone a pass, its merely to understand why things may have happened the way they have. And I can't think of a player who is more interesting than Andrew Wiggins. He is a Rubics cube of talent and detachment. I am just trying to figure him out. And more than anything, I am proposing that the things that made Andrew Wiggins "All-Star Wiggs" and the things that made "WTF You Suck Wiggs" are related.
Wiggins wasn't soft against Boston in '22. That's what is so compelling about his story! And I don't believe stories exist without causes. Characters don't exist without motivations. We can all blame Wiggins for not playing up to his potential, but before we yell at him and make him feel ashamed for his actions, it might be kind to first understand what prevented him from playing to his potential. Was something going on that we didn't know about?
Again, I'm not giving Andrew a pass. I am just trying to understand why. And I am just going off of what we know in the public, what we have access to. Someone on the inside knows something I don't, great. I'll drop my theory in a heartbeat. But until someone has a better explanation, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;-)
Kawhi Leonard is aware of the perception of his injury misfortune and is eager to prove doubters wrong, per @NotoriousOHM
“I got to keep doing what I'm doing and I might be the most known at the time right now, like injury or whatever, but people have, players have worse luck than I have. So just to being able to keep going and keep going is going to motivate the next guy that's watching me. So I'm going to keep going until I can't."
Kawhi. I can't talk bad about him because he is different. But if you are a GM and you invested in that guy and all that baggage, that's on you. He is a one-of-a-kind deadly basketball player dot dot dot when he plays. But there is more to the game than pure skill.
My understanding is the following, although if any true experts disagree, I will defer: The Jazz can extend LM (at any time, I believe) and can offer more than any other team by adjusting his salary for next year up from $18M. However, if they do, he cannot be traded for 6 months from signature. If he re-signs after Aug 6, the 6 month timeline will take it past the trade deadline and he would need to remain on Utah's roster all of next season.
I really wonder what he thinks about being dangled as trade bait? Yea, it’s a business… but last year, I’m sure he was thinking/was told that he was a building block and face of the franchise…now he’s being shopped instead
Id be a bit surprised if he still wanted to be there long term…unless all he cares about is top dollar, which is understandable
I'm ready to move on if we can't secure LM this offseason. I don't think we'll have enough room for error and time to try and fit him into the system with half a season. I'd rather pivot to Kuzma or Ingram (if he's not feeling any type of way about Kerr Ball)
Steph is running out of prime years and I don't even want to waste one year of it. If we're going to get LM I want him in the offseason so we can build something from it as early as possible.
I agree, but there is still the big picture no matter how much of a rush one thinks there is. I guess you are still thinking that a title is there for us if we get Markkanen this off season. I find it hard to buy this narrative/dream.
I’m saying as soon as his sights turn elsewhere, like the Kangz just did, you know it’s because Danny closed negotiations. It could be for Kuzma or some other trade. Point is, Mike isn’t done adding, but he’s waiting on Ainge ATM
I've no idea what Mike is thinking. Any trade requires at least two parties. So far, there is no agreement. We're not privy to what is really going on.
There's no reason to wait for Ainge; MDJ could conduct several negotiations at the same time. Waiting on Ainge could result in all his other possible options going away in the meanwhile.
The Boston Celtics signed Neemias Queta to a three-year, $7.18 million deal, which is fully guaranteed Year 1, includes a significant partial guarantee Year 2, and a team option Year 3
Curious, if Post and TJD both play in Vegas, do Sorkin and Bolden sit? Do they rotate 4 guys? I'm not sure what to do when there are too many bigs on the team :)
I’d be surprised if TJD plays more than 2 games. Post I think they should play a bunch. The bigs surely have been told in advance of their signing. Coach Vereen has been sitting people whole games (instead of rotating more players each game) to give players longer run.
Nice problem to have, bunch a bigs. I would think they will give longer looks at Post and Bolden. We'll see how much rim protecting Post is capable of and also whether he's got stretch potential. I don't think there is much chance of Sorkin making it unless they need more bigs at SC. Looney's clock is ticking...........
I'm gonna tip my hat to AV (summer league HC). Yeah, they have some older guys who might pick things up quicker, but in a week of practice he gave them sets they could master, and has them playing hard and mostly playing team ball and actual defense, which isn't always the case in SL.
It is really hard to figure out if an individual player is good from summer league play. There is just too much chaos and the players haven't had enough time playing together to trust each other on defense. The Warriors did win 2 games by over 20 points though so they must have collectively done some things OK on defense.
I think he is worth keeping in SC and see what happens.
He certainly has a chance especially if he is a very good defender which we have not seen yet in these chaotic games. He certainly does not have that instant ‘it” factor.
There is a reason he went undrafted after being ACC def player of year twice.
They need players for SC. He won't play on the Warriors. Too many players blocking him. He would have to show something outstanding about his game. College to NBA is hard.
Final note from a pretty fun game. Lakers fans and Warriors fans all united to get off resounding cheers of WE WANT BRONNY. Finally something both sides can agree on.
I am sold on ETHAN THOMPSON. Another 20+ PPG night, in 27 mins PT, while shooting 54-40-100, grabbing 11 REBS/4 OR, dishing 4 assists, AND, getting 3 steals...I like him...
Yep.
Explain 1 Mystery. Season 1, Episode 1. What happened to Andrew Wiggins? Reader's Digest Version.
What we know. Baseline Wiggins is a super talent inside a stoic, quite, emotionally hidden introvert. We know he has had some personal "non-basketball related" issues off the court starting in 2022-23 when he only played 37 games. Statistically, we saw a drop in production in 2023-24. Although he only played 37 games in 2022-23, his numbers that year were in line with his All-Star season. Statistically speaking, the giant "THUD" we heard happened in 2023-24.
There are two mysteries. One is the "THUD". "Dude, what happened?" The other, which we often overlook, is WTF happened in 2021-22? Wiggins became '2-way Wiggs' and DubNation was freaking out because he was actually smiling! Who was that man? He was a revelation.
The popular opinion is that the "Thud" was the result of Wiggins being Wiggins, reverting to his old unemotional uninvolved self and that the All-Star Wiggs was the product of the supremacy of the Warriors' organizational basketball culture.
Problems. I think we have to rule out "off-the-court" issues because Wiggs only played 37 games in 2022-23 due to those issues, yet statistically, in those 37 games, produced numbers equal to his All-Star season. I also believe the "Thud" of 2023-24 fell well beyond "Baseline Wiggs" - which for better or worse - is still a pretty damn good player. This begs the question, what was different between 2022-23 & 2023-24? Finally, if the Warriors' superior basketball culture was the reason for 2-way Wiggs, All-Star Wiggs, in 2021-22, why did it not work in 2023-24?
Here is an alternative theory. It starts in the locker room in Boston in 2022, Jordan Poole and Wiggins are doused in champagne yelling, "I'm gonna get a bag, you're gonna get a bag!" Now to be clear, I am not suggesting money plays any part. Especially for Wiggins because, unlike Poole, he doesn't have enough room in his house for the money he has already made in the NBA. What I want folks to consider is the friendship on display in that moment between those two utterly opposite human beings. Wiggins: quiet, stoic, emotionally hidden. Poole: brash, outgoing, irrationally and annoyingly self-confident. If you can wrap your brain around that relationship, you may solve the mystery.
Hypothetical scenario. You work in a business with your girlfriend. The business is real happy with her work, it seems like she will be an important part of the 'team' moving forward. One day, another employee, one who had been with the business for a long time, punches your girlfriend in the face. Who knows, maybe she stole her chicken Caesar salad out of the break room fridge. Regardless, rather than being punished, the perpetrator not only doesn't get punished, but receives Employee of the Month for past work done. Your girlfriend then gets a promise for a 1000% raise in 1 year and that seems to be compensation to make up for what will be one long uncomfortable year with everyone working together. Everyone knows that the perpetrator is in the last year of their own contract and there is a chance that that person may be gone soon - which to you and your girlfriend is a dream come true. Instead, the business owners and GM turn a blind eye, fire your girlfriend before her raise takes effect and promotes the perpetrator to be your new supervisor with a new 4-yr contract.
Welcome to Andrew Wiggins' world.
I am pretty sure that almost everyone has had a job working for some A-holes and can admit to not feeling particularly committed or invested in their own work. We tend to forget that these are people like everyone else and they have relationships and feelings and life events and JOBS. And driving to an arena and putting on a uniform and shooting a basketball is a job. And if I am Andrew Wiggins, BFF with Jordan Poole, regardless of the golden history, the sweet magic of the Warrior's culture prior, since 'The Punch' and 'The Way it was Handled', I could give a rat's ass about the Golden State Warriors.
That may sound a little strong, especially for a guy who is getting paid $25mil a year. But we have to look at the Andrew Wiggins that we saw for years, many years, many many years if you live in Minnesota, and the Andrew Wiggins we saw on the bench, smiling and laughing next to Jordan Poole on the bench.
So, the theory is this: it wasn't the Warriors' culture that brought the best out of Wiggins. It was his relationship with Poole. Imagine Wiggins as a pimped out Jaguar, but with a dead battery. For better or worse, Wiggins seems to be the type of person that needs an accelerator, an outside agent to activate him, a jump start to get the engine to turn over, a personal relationship that gave him permission, or the security, to engage emotionally in his job. It's like Wiggins got into the slip-stream that was Jordan Poole's gregarious and irrational self-confidence, and slingshotted his way to the checkered flag, pulling the GS Warriors to a Championship Ricky Bobby style.
When I think about Wiggins, I don't think of all the negative things about his game on the court. I think of him smiling. You need Ocean's Eleven to unlock All-Star Wiggs and I believe Jordan Poole was Danny Ocean. I believe Jordan Poole played a greater role in our 2021-22 Chip than we tend to believe. I believe Jordan Poole's greatest assist was his friendship with Andrew Wiggins and it was Jordan Poole, not the vaunted Warriors' culture, that gave Wiggins the permission to let his freak flag fly and play to the level of his natural abilities.
On July 6th, 2023, Jordan Poole was traded to the Washington Whatevs.
On July 8th, 2023, Draymond Green signed a new 4-yr deal.
What happened to Wiggins in 2023-24?
Who knows? All I can say for sure is I am hankering for a Scooby snack.
Scooby-DooBee-Doo
Shake and bake!
I believe this movie. Your explanation resonates for me, and I've wondered if the Punch and aftermath was part of what tanked Wiggs. Sure wish he could find another really good friend. It would be better for him, and the Ws could really use 2022 Wiggins.
OOO OOO now do Looney!
Alright, this was 8 hours ago and there's a new thread so this is unlikely to be seen much. And before I go into all the reasons this might not be true I will point out that, since no one, possibly INCLUDING Wiggins knows why he had a bad year last season, it is possible that you are right. However you have taken sooo many leaps to get there I think it is unlikely that you have arrived at the correct explanation.
1) We actually have a reason which is that he had personal family issues and Wiggins is the type of guy (seems to be, anyway) to let that get to him.
2) He actually started playing more like 22 Wiggs towards the end of the season and then dropped off again. You can pick stretches where his stats look almost like 22. It's cherry picking but you can make an argument that he was coming around toward the end of the season. Well why did he drop off again? One reasonable explanation, backed up by the recent Olympics brouhaha, is that he hurt his ankle, which we didn't know at the time, but do now.
3) Wiggins actually signed and undervalued contract, at the time, because he liked the Ws organization so much and they have reinforced that, IMHO, be being SO tolerant and understanding of his family situation over the last 2 seasons. While I am sure he was unhappy with the Punch and loss of Poole, I think we ought to concede that his positive treatment by the team would temper that somewhat
4) You reveal in another reply in this thread, that you have been in an analogous situation in which you were Wiggins. I suppose it's natural to equate the two but you can't possibly know enough about how Wiggins thinks or feels to make that anything other than a wild guess that Poole leaving was the cause.
5) Correlation does not equal causation
I have no idea what happened to Wiggins. But what I did not know was his close relationship with Poole. JK also got very close to Poole.
It does not matter whether it is Poole or someone else a team is a group of individuals that works together for a cause. If you have too many egos or bad vibes, no matter the talent things start to fray. One unhappy player can spoil the synergy of the team.
Playing with Joy and intention for the whole is a thing. We are getting to see that in summer league. When I look at players I also look at their interviews, their interactions with their team mates. By that metric and his skill set any team is going to be better off adding an Ethan Thompson or a Gary Payton over a Jordan Poole or a Wiggins. It is not just Curry's skill set it is his committment and Joy. There are so many intangibles that go into a team. The Warriors Sunmer league shows that teamwork works, ambition and joy matter. And that the league over values young players. I over value committment to the team. Rather have fewer stars and more people who are grateful and work hard. If you have ever had to lead a diverse group of people you know exactly what I mean. Poole wanted to be Curry--the Star---his attitude rubbed off on JK and subsequenty got straightened out. Thompson, rightly or wrongly got envious too. Always in the shadow of Steph and not getting treated with respect. (Respect often is codespeak for $$$).
I said in the middle of last season I would rather see players work and play hard and put their heart into it and lose, than watch a bunch of grumbly old men with bad attitudes play poorly win or lose.
I believe Dunleavy deserves credit for looking at stats but also for looking at attitudes. Beekman and Lindy show he's paying attention to what's between the ears. Attitude, work ethic, hunger vs ego, entitlement, greed. Hats off to him.
That video of Wiggins and Poole in Japan was something special. Their bond is definitely deep.
I know it’s a job and all, but some people can really bring out the best in you.
Personally, I'm not interested in knowing the inner workings of Wiggins head. I just know he hasn't produced in two seasons and has been AWOL, literally at times. I have to believe the Warriors would like to trade him but can't find a good enough deal to do so. Logically, it makes no sense to keep someone on your roster who is not earning their hefty paycheck any longer.
He was not “literally AWOL”. The team made it very clear he had their permission and support.
True. My use of the term was meant to describe his presence on the court, absent, in a figurative sense, a lot.
You know “literally” is “figuratively” have pretty much the opposite meanings, right?
Yes, I had one of those senior moments.......
Honestly, if it wasn't for you guys I wound never have known that Wiggs and Poole were besties off the court since I don't follow these guys outside the game of basketball, so this theory sounds like it could be true based on your observations and if so, how do we get Wiggs to play with joy again? Has that ship sailed along with Jordan Poole?
I'll also add, the trading of JP was his own fault. if he had just played within his role instead of trying to fill Curry's shoes so soon, he'd still be a very big part of this teams future. Watching '22 finals highlights will have you thinking "man, Jordan was balling, wtf happened?!"
Draymond happened.
Everyone is over playing the importance of that incident. The underlying truth is that Poole was and is a PUNK. What he said to Draymond would have been bad enough even without all of JPs obvious deficiencies as a player or Draymond's decade as a team leader.
I think every Warriors fans wanted to punch JP at least a few times during the season.
Remember that he isn't even a starter for the Wizards, who would love t dump that contract.
As for the relationship with Wigs and JP. Who the fuck knows. Likely not even Wiggins. What I remember most clearly is after Draymond was ejected against Minnesota, Wiggins played well. They he picked up his 3rd foul and was an absolute fucking MONSTER on defense for about 5 minutes before Kerr set him down. Once a fire was lit under his ass, Wiggins is a defensive player of the year and super disruptive. He just needs to the drive to dominate (like the Luka Matchup in 22) about 25 minutes a game and the whole roster will work.
That's definitely a big part of it. But all reports were that things seemed to have gone to Jordan's head. Throughout the pandemic, word was that he was constantly in the gym, was a super hard worker, was coachable, etc.
After the championship and the "we're going to get a bag" episode in the post-game celebration, he seemed to have believed the hype about his play. Then after the Punch and the big contract, his game was very different. He didn't seem to want to play in the flow of the offense anymore. He kept trying to go one-on-one, shooting heat-check 3s at bad moments, became a total turnstile on defense... He looked like he became all about himself.
Have you ever had months you were significantly more or less productive at work, for personal reasons your coworkers were never privvy to?
We have less information than those coworkers.
If we're all just giving our best guesses, I've been in the camp thinking that Wiggins' relationship with Poole is where he found his joy and motivation. When everything went down the way it did, it definitely broke his heart.
Yeah. I mean the thing that struck me most about Wiggins were the moments of joy and laughing and Poole being in the picture. I do believe there was something special there, that Jordan had the key, that the Jordan relationship unlocked Wiggins. It's not a crazy idea. I have experienced this type of relationship first hand. I was the Wiggins character and it was my crazy outgoing best friend that enabled me to engage the world with, as Steve Kerr would say, Force. I emphasize with Wiggins a bit because I was somewhat trapped in myself when I was younger. Not surprising I write on this topic because of some affinity I have for the quiet, stoic and introverted Wiggins.
Yeah right... amateur psychoanalysis of a person you never met.
Hey, we're just fans talking about what happened with an important player on the team. No one really believes they can professional diagnose Wiggs from watching a few video clips. But his drop off is a serious matter for the Warriors, , as is unlocking him again if that is possible.
I wonder if Poole and Wiggins would both do better if they played on the same team again...
What's your explanation? I'm not saying anything is fact. I am looking at statistics, I am looking at recorded events, and I am merely trying to connect the dots. Do you think that Andrew Wiggins, who by all appearances had a great relationship with Jordan Poole, was cool with Jordan getting assaulted? Was he happy his friend was traded rather than Draymond accepting an offer to play for Memphis? Are these guys robots? Do you have a counter theory? Is Wiggins just a shitty basketball player who doesn't care about basketball? If that's it, fine. I'm okay with that. But state your theory and support it with your own observations. Or, rather than criticize, tell me what observations I have made you don't agree with. What did I get wrong? Then we can have a conversation. Otherwise, I have no idea where you are coming from except you are offended by something I have said. Nothing I write is fact. It is merely food to chew on, looking at things from a different perspective, hopefully, if I am lucky, pointing out something that some people haven't thought about. It's just discourse.
My "explanation" is that Wiggins' reasons for doing what he does are none of our business, we'll never know unless he tells us (which seems unlikely), and it matters not at all except to Wiggins. What matters is how he performs and fits in with the Warriors or whatever team he plays with. Just that.
If he’s THAT soft, then I can’t wait to unload that contract for someone better and not so soft
Look, I agree. You don't go to a job application and say, "Yeah, I'm F'ing great, but you have to hire this other guy 'cuz I can't really get into the job without having him around." Straight up, 100% correct, for $25 mil a year we damn well better only be paying for 1 guy, not 2. I am not saying that Andrew Wiggins gets a "Get Out of Jail Free" card for sucking on the basketball court because we traded his BFF. I am only trying to understand "WHY?" Slo-Mo's 3pt% dropped precipitously last year. Why? He had an eye injury. De'Anthony Melton had a rough year last year. Why? He had a back injury. Wiggins was crap last year. Why? Wiggins wasn't crap in 2022-23 when he played, the problem was he only played 37 games. What changed between those two years?
We all saw the punch. I believe there was a second punch that we didn't see, the gut punch to Wiggins, not just from Draymond, but from the entire Warriors organization because of how they dealt with it, or rather, how they swept it under the rug.
Maybe Wiggins didn't care about Jordan getting punched and traded. Maybe his relationship with Poole was fake and he really just hates playing basketball and that's why he sucked. My goal isn't to give anyone a pass, its merely to understand why things may have happened the way they have. And I can't think of a player who is more interesting than Andrew Wiggins. He is a Rubics cube of talent and detachment. I am just trying to figure him out. And more than anything, I am proposing that the things that made Andrew Wiggins "All-Star Wiggs" and the things that made "WTF You Suck Wiggs" are related.
Wiggins wasn't soft against Boston in '22. That's what is so compelling about his story! And I don't believe stories exist without causes. Characters don't exist without motivations. We can all blame Wiggins for not playing up to his potential, but before we yell at him and make him feel ashamed for his actions, it might be kind to first understand what prevented him from playing to his potential. Was something going on that we didn't know about?
Again, I'm not giving Andrew a pass. I am just trying to understand why. And I am just going off of what we know in the public, what we have access to. Someone on the inside knows something I don't, great. I'll drop my theory in a heartbeat. But until someone has a better explanation, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;-)
Podz micd up with the select team:
https://youtu.be/TyyJYab91ek?si=woi_McBxSCLGVzLj
Something about this kid. He's that player where you're like "There's no way he's getting a bucket here." and then he does.
Also seems like he's one of those guys that's obsessed with improving. I know every NBA player wants to get better but some goes the extra mile
I’ll be so sad if Podz gets traded. He is such a pleasure to watch.
Team USA Basketball Scrimmage Practice With LeBron James & Stephen Curry! 2024 Team USA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOdwZC1zk48 (Day 2)
NOTE: lots of repeated footage, some from different camera angles, some just repeated... a lot... still, better than nothing.
Day 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUICWvyZxPk (shooting drills)
Kawhi Leonard is aware of the perception of his injury misfortune and is eager to prove doubters wrong, per @NotoriousOHM
“I got to keep doing what I'm doing and I might be the most known at the time right now, like injury or whatever, but people have, players have worse luck than I have. So just to being able to keep going and keep going is going to motivate the next guy that's watching me. So I'm going to keep going until I can't."
https://x.com/AndyJPuente/status/1810145518724747270
Kawhi. I can't talk bad about him because he is different. But if you are a GM and you invested in that guy and all that baggage, that's on you. He is a one-of-a-kind deadly basketball player dot dot dot when he plays. But there is more to the game than pure skill.
A Hollinger article said that the Ainge can let the market simmer all the way through Aug. 6, though I forget his explanation.
My understanding is the following, although if any true experts disagree, I will defer: The Jazz can extend LM (at any time, I believe) and can offer more than any other team by adjusting his salary for next year up from $18M. However, if they do, he cannot be traded for 6 months from signature. If he re-signs after Aug 6, the 6 month timeline will take it past the trade deadline and he would need to remain on Utah's roster all of next season.
I really wonder what he thinks about being dangled as trade bait? Yea, it’s a business… but last year, I’m sure he was thinking/was told that he was a building block and face of the franchise…now he’s being shopped instead
Id be a bit surprised if he still wanted to be there long term…unless all he cares about is top dollar, which is understandable
If the Market simmers, so does the big trade packages being offered for his prize. Let’s hope the Dubz are the only ones left standing by then
I expected this to last another month or more anyway. Danny is in no rush
The Markket?
As it were, yes. The Lauteri
I'm ready to move on if we can't secure LM this offseason. I don't think we'll have enough room for error and time to try and fit him into the system with half a season. I'd rather pivot to Kuzma or Ingram (if he's not feeling any type of way about Kerr Ball)
I don't think is about fitting him into our system this year. It's a big picture move.
Steph is running out of prime years and I don't even want to waste one year of it. If we're going to get LM I want him in the offseason so we can build something from it as early as possible.
I agree, but there is still the big picture no matter how much of a rush one thinks there is. I guess you are still thinking that a title is there for us if we get Markkanen this off season. I find it hard to buy this narrative/dream.
The second we hear that Mike has gotten into the Ingram sweepstakes, we know Danny changed his mind and we’re moving on
Why do you think MDJ is interested in Ingram?
I’m saying as soon as his sights turn elsewhere, like the Kangz just did, you know it’s because Danny closed negotiations. It could be for Kuzma or some other trade. Point is, Mike isn’t done adding, but he’s waiting on Ainge ATM
I've no idea what Mike is thinking. Any trade requires at least two parties. So far, there is no agreement. We're not privy to what is really going on.
There's no reason to wait for Ainge; MDJ could conduct several negotiations at the same time. Waiting on Ainge could result in all his other possible options going away in the meanwhile.
Well apparently his eggs are all in one basket rn…and maybe that changes as soon as Ainge folds up his tents
Okay, spill the beans... do you have a tap on MDJ's phone? 😆
The Boston Celtics signed Neemias Queta to a three-year, $7.18 million deal, which is fully guaranteed Year 1, includes a significant partial guarantee Year 2, and a team option Year 3
https://x.com/MikeAScotto/status/1810118421063119265
Paul George got a 15 percent trade kicker in his four-year, $212 million contract with the Philadelphia 76ers
https://x.com/MikeAScotto/status/1810123714626748631
Is there a more beautiful and sensuous Front Office than the Boston Celtics currently? Every signing and pick seems to make perfect sense
Curious, if Post and TJD both play in Vegas, do Sorkin and Bolden sit? Do they rotate 4 guys? I'm not sure what to do when there are too many bigs on the team :)
I’d be surprised if TJD plays more than 2 games. Post I think they should play a bunch. The bigs surely have been told in advance of their signing. Coach Vereen has been sitting people whole games (instead of rotating more players each game) to give players longer run.
Nice problem to have, bunch a bigs. I would think they will give longer looks at Post and Bolden. We'll see how much rim protecting Post is capable of and also whether he's got stretch potential. I don't think there is much chance of Sorkin making it unless they need more bigs at SC. Looney's clock is ticking...........
I'm gonna tip my hat to AV (summer league HC). Yeah, they have some older guys who might pick things up quicker, but in a week of practice he gave them sets they could master, and has them playing hard and mostly playing team ball and actual defense, which isn't always the case in SL.
Beekman after 2 games looks like a guy who might make the league as a marginal back up PG and may never see a minute.
I have seen nothing that suggests he is the 2 time ACC defensive player of the year.
He is not young either.
They have a helluva summer league roster in terms of guys who can score but most are 25 or so years old.
It is really hard to figure out if an individual player is good from summer league play. There is just too much chaos and the players haven't had enough time playing together to trust each other on defense. The Warriors did win 2 games by over 20 points though so they must have collectively done some things OK on defense.
Do you think he's not worth a 2-way spot?
I think he is worth keeping in SC and see what happens.
He certainly has a chance especially if he is a very good defender which we have not seen yet in these chaotic games. He certainly does not have that instant ‘it” factor.
There is a reason he went undrafted after being ACC def player of year twice.
They need players for SC. He won't play on the Warriors. Too many players blocking him. He would have to show something outstanding about his game. College to NBA is hard.
Warriors won all eight quarters this weekend. 😊
Final note from a pretty fun game. Lakers fans and Warriors fans all united to get off resounding cheers of WE WANT BRONNY. Finally something both sides can agree on.
Hahaha they ran a JaVale play for Knox.: Relay pick and roll. Went to the same Chaotic Neutral playbook.
Beek has struggled to make an impact in the half court but to be fair, players have missed about four plus open shots he’s created for them.
Thompson just somehow appears with the ball on rebounds. It doesn't even look like he is out jumping anyone.
The Beekman-Bolden high handoff play has been an automatic turnover.
Knox possessions really consistently critique and interrogate commonplace notions of what is a “basketball play” or a “good shot”.
Not sure if its Beekman not getting close enough to Bolden or Bolden just holding the ball out there on a platter.