Amen Thompson grabs onto Tyler Herro's jersey. Herro tries to shove him away, but Thompson shoves him to the floor, causing the other players on the court to rush in to defend their teammates. A big scuffle occurs, and six people have been ejected: Thompson, Jalen Green, Herro, Terry Rozier, and the Rockets head coach and assistant coach.
Oh okay, I didn't realize he was taunting, though I did see him talking. He tried to push Thompson off him but after all Amen was grabbing his uni with both fists so what else was he supposed to do? I didn't see him fighting after that.
Pacers beat the Celtics 123-112. Pacers didn't have Nesmith and Toppin, while the Celtics didn't have Holiday and Porzingis. Celtics have lost 4 of their last 6 games (Bulls, Magic, 76ers, and Pacers).
This might be a mild hot take, but I've come to the conclusion that there are only two players that define this generation: LeBron and Steph.
My methodology is simplistic, but produced surprising results to me: ask any non-basketball fan in your life to name basketball players. My results, and the overall results on social media were that only Steph and LeBron were known to the broader public (with a bonus mention of basketball players that dated a Kardashian). I was expecting some recognition of KD or Giannis but nope.
My guess for generational players are as follows. I'm not claiming these are the best players, just the ones that were so important that they defined the generation for hardcore fans and for non-fans:
2015-2024. Steph and LeBron
2000-2014. LeBron, Kobe and Shaq.
1991-1999. Michael Jordan.
1980-1990. Bird and Magic, start of MJ
Before Bird and Magic, the NBA was not a major sport that reached the broader culture.
I try not to get into debates about ranking players with vague terms like “generational player”, but I know I did this to myself…
I see the main disagreement people have is that there were famous basketball players before Bird and Magic. I agree. I would guess by that standard 1974-1979 was Kareem and Dr. J, and before that it was maybe Wilt and Bill Russell?
The reason I didn’t just say that was perhaps my being too fussy technically. Kareem and Dr. J (and even Wilt) were already famous before they joined the NBA.
NBA as a league was at a low in popularity and influence in the 1970s. It was a distant third place behind baseball, which was behind King Football. There were years when you couldn’t watch the Finals on live TV; they were tape delayed to very late. And before 1970, the Finals weren’t even all on national TV.
With this background, it feels funny to call anyone in the NBA in the 1970s a generational player that the non-public knows. I don’t think anyone was famous for things they did in the NBA.
My one quibble, based on my own admittedly anecdotal experience as a junior high and high school student in the relevant time period, would be the "before Bird and Magic" statement. I would argue that you can move the list back one additional step to Dr. J, and maybe particularly so given the outsized influence he had on league merger. The actual cross-over point in viewership numbers from niche sport to "today's NBA" is at least arguably 1982 - Dr. J vs the Lakers - when the finals went from a viewership number of 6.7 mil to 13 mil. That number was basically reprised in the rematch in 1983, and those numbers were driven as much by Dr. J vs. Kareem as they were by Magic. In terms of broader cultural recognition, I would note that it was not Magic that was featured in the seminal basketball computer game (the one that made EA Sports a major player in the game business) - One on One, Dr. J vs. Larry Bird.
Another fun exercise could be just "can you name 5 players who ever played this sport, (optionally not for your geographic team)". I haven't tried this experiment, but based on general conversations my best guess for current 30-50 year olds would be:
NHL:
Gretzky (50% of the time)
... Thinks they know they name of some other guy but can't get it
... No one else
MLB:
Babe Ruth
Barry Bonds
+1 named as "husband of..."
+1 addtl random person
NFL:
Mahomes
Brady
Manning
+1 other QB
Almost no chance a non-QB is named
NBA:
MJ
LeBron
Kobe
Shaq
+1 additional I think most people would succeed with fairly random results
Although an imaginary result I created with my own biases, it feels right that people would have the highest success rate in naming 5 basketball players over other sports. Also, if you think that most people could answer this easily for all sports, I am pretty confident that is wrong and not actually the general society demographic being discussed.
So Wilt, Jerry West, Rick Barry, Kareem, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy and the Celtic team under Auerbach, was not a major sport that reached the broader culture? I was around for all them. I can assure you they reached the broader culture. Perhaps you were just too young. Now, because of the internet, it is faster, and the players are so rich that they have branded clothing and accessories.
As someone who falls close to the target audience (ie uninformed) being discussed for baseball, my guess is since 2000 the only people in baseball to qualify are Bonds and Ohtani. Prior to that my experience is more biased -- for 80s - 90s, emersed in bay area, Bash Bros and Rickey felt part of broader culture, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't extend far out of CA. The exercise is more about pop culture at the time so can't really comment much on pre-80's, but can say that in particular I would be hard pressed to name many 70's baseball legends, aside from the A's in general. Many legends for 20's to 60's, but I really have no idea how they were viewed at the time.
Baseball was much more dominant pre-80s than today, and much more so further back. There was the NFL and MLB in the '60s and '70s, in that order, but go back to the '50s and before that all the way to the Dead Ball era, and baseball was first. Walter Johnson and Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker and Christy Mathewson were household names, and once Babe Ruth hit his stride, he became internationally famous, even with limited radio broadcasts and no TV. Bob Cousy and Bill Russell were not household names, not really. There weren't many pro basketball teams, and games were rarely broadcast until the '60s, and even then not so much until the late '60s. (Even baseball wasn't on TV that much in the '50s, just the Game of the Week and the World Series for the most part.) Top boxers were much better known than basketball players; you knew about Joe Louis, Floyd Patterson, Rocky Marciano, and Sonny Liston. Heck, top race horses were probably better known than basketball players. Wilt got a lot of attention when he arrived but you could name 75, maybe 100 baseball players in the '50s without even trying who were better known than any basketball player of the day — and that's with 16 MLB teams. Really the same in the '60s, although basketball was getting better established. Go back to the '40s and before, and baseball was dominant.
I think this is pretty spot on, except as others below point out, I think you can add a 70s and put in Wilt and Kareem. I wasn't around, but my impression is that they were both solidly celebrities at the time.
KD is a close 3rd in this generation. I did this test last year and 100% named LeBron and Steph, and a handful named Durant. The only other non-Warrior (people knew Klay and Draymond, but that's a biased sample) more than 1 named was Kyrie, but for COVID and conspiracy reasons.
Before Bird and Magic there was Wilt Chamberlin ... he was very well known in the broader culture, and recognized for his size and athletic talents... even if the NBA was not considered a major sport in many eyes.
I'm not positive, but Kareem might have been more famous for his college basketball (undefeated UCLA) and being in movies with Bruce Lee, than for anything in the NBA
First of all, Kareem was a big name when he was still in high school. I remember when Power Memorial Academy's team came down to DC (near where I lived) to play DeMatha HS, two of the top teams in the country, and that was national news. As great as he was at UCLA, he was an absolute monster in the NBA from his rookie year, and the media were all over it. His second year he won a ring, the MVP, and the scoring title. His battles with Wilt got a lot of publicity. I think by his second or third year in the NBA he might have been the best known basketball player in the world other than Wilt. There's a reason he was in those Bruce Lee movies, and it wasn't that he was anything special as a martial artist. Plus he was outspoken about civil rights and became a Muslim and changed his name, and that was international news.
Older than you? How about you post a response with some actual content?
Edit: Basketbum was banned before for toxic posts and was on permanent probation upon his return. This low quality rude post was the last straw, so I’ve banned them again.
Boxing above basketball too. The '70s had all three Ali-Frazier fights, Ken Norton, George Foreman, Larry Holmes. And some of those big fights were massive international media events (think: the Thrilla in Manila, the Rumble in the Jungle). Ali was the best-known American and best-known athlete in the world.
I definitely hear that, but I feel like he got famous before he set foot in the NBA. He became famous at UCLA and for those things you mention, which all happened before he joined the NBA. I haven’t done careful study but I would not be surprised if the general public knew who he was but didn’t know whether he was with the NBA, ABA or Globetrotters (who were all trying to recruit him).
In my uncareful opinion, I think 1970s basketball was the Kareem and Dr. J generation, but again, the NBA was in a truly dreadful state in the 1970s.
Are we talking about great players that basketball fans would know or are we talking about household names that non-fans would recognize? Because if it's the latter, AI was not in that class.
Curry's career seems somehow more iconic to me than even Lebron's. Changed the game more than any player ever with the 3 pt revolution, only ever unanimous MVP, got to be the face of the best team of all time. Forever the personal hero of every baller under 6'5". He's synonymous with this era of basketball in the same way as Magic and Bird for the 80's. Of course this era was at least as much Lebron's as Curry's, but Lebron's legacy seems fated to forever be a pissing match between Jordan and Bron fans for the GOAT title. Curry on the other hand has a more unique "brand" so to speak, and is completely distinct from any other player on the top 10 list.
Steph changed the game by expanding the use of the 3-pointer and through that, the possibilities for smaller players. He influenced countless kids to want to play like him. The problem of course is that they aren't Steph. But they try.
That wasn't true of Wilt, since you had to be huge, as well as a super-athlete, to even attempt to play like him. But Wilt changed the rules of the game. Because of Wilt, the league widened the lane, created the offensive and defensive goaltending rules, and revised rules about inbounding the ball (for example, banned inbound passes over the backboard). They changed the rules for shooting free throws because Wilt could leap from behind the foul line to dunk the ball, so first the NCAA, and then the NBA, made a rule that the shooter must keep his feet behind the foul line. So Wilt changed the game in fundamental ways but in a different sense than Steph did.
E1P: all medieval artillery references must be hearted. Otherwise I go ballista-ic.
There was a big fight towards the end of the Rockets-Heat game tonight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw6j_w7ORv0
Amen Thompson grabs onto Tyler Herro's jersey. Herro tries to shove him away, but Thompson shoves him to the floor, causing the other players on the court to rush in to defend their teammates. A big scuffle occurs, and six people have been ejected: Thompson, Jalen Green, Herro, Terry Rozier, and the Rockets head coach and assistant coach.
I don't know why they threw Herro out. He didn't fight anybody.
Actually nope. Herro was tossed for fighting.
https://official.nba.com/pool-report-on-ejections-in-fourth-quarter-of-tonights-miami-at-houston-game/
Oh okay, I didn't realize he was taunting, though I did see him talking. He tried to push Thompson off him but after all Amen was grabbing his uni with both fists so what else was he supposed to do? I didn't see him fighting after that.
Herro was taunting Thompson after Herro watched the replay of being yanked down.
Amen Thompson straight outta Oakland baby #townbiz
He ought to be straight into a long suspension baby.
what - no dillon brooks involved here???
All it was missing was Mike Breen's voice on the broadcast.
Looks like a few more guys will be getting unpaid vacations here.
Pacers beat the Celtics 123-112. Pacers didn't have Nesmith and Toppin, while the Celtics didn't have Holiday and Porzingis. Celtics have lost 4 of their last 6 games (Bulls, Magic, 76ers, and Pacers).
Heat beat the Rockets 104-100.
Fantastic retrospective. I still cannot believe that we had KD for 3 yr. Utter BBall Bliss.
This might be a mild hot take, but I've come to the conclusion that there are only two players that define this generation: LeBron and Steph.
My methodology is simplistic, but produced surprising results to me: ask any non-basketball fan in your life to name basketball players. My results, and the overall results on social media were that only Steph and LeBron were known to the broader public (with a bonus mention of basketball players that dated a Kardashian). I was expecting some recognition of KD or Giannis but nope.
My guess for generational players are as follows. I'm not claiming these are the best players, just the ones that were so important that they defined the generation for hardcore fans and for non-fans:
2015-2024. Steph and LeBron
2000-2014. LeBron, Kobe and Shaq.
1991-1999. Michael Jordan.
1980-1990. Bird and Magic, start of MJ
Before Bird and Magic, the NBA was not a major sport that reached the broader culture.
I try not to get into debates about ranking players with vague terms like “generational player”, but I know I did this to myself…
I see the main disagreement people have is that there were famous basketball players before Bird and Magic. I agree. I would guess by that standard 1974-1979 was Kareem and Dr. J, and before that it was maybe Wilt and Bill Russell?
The reason I didn’t just say that was perhaps my being too fussy technically. Kareem and Dr. J (and even Wilt) were already famous before they joined the NBA.
NBA as a league was at a low in popularity and influence in the 1970s. It was a distant third place behind baseball, which was behind King Football. There were years when you couldn’t watch the Finals on live TV; they were tape delayed to very late. And before 1970, the Finals weren’t even all on national TV.
With this background, it feels funny to call anyone in the NBA in the 1970s a generational player that the non-public knows. I don’t think anyone was famous for things they did in the NBA.
Dr. J was pretty famous. He even did Chapstick commercials.
My one quibble, based on my own admittedly anecdotal experience as a junior high and high school student in the relevant time period, would be the "before Bird and Magic" statement. I would argue that you can move the list back one additional step to Dr. J, and maybe particularly so given the outsized influence he had on league merger. The actual cross-over point in viewership numbers from niche sport to "today's NBA" is at least arguably 1982 - Dr. J vs the Lakers - when the finals went from a viewership number of 6.7 mil to 13 mil. That number was basically reprised in the rematch in 1983, and those numbers were driven as much by Dr. J vs. Kareem as they were by Magic. In terms of broader cultural recognition, I would note that it was not Magic that was featured in the seminal basketball computer game (the one that made EA Sports a major player in the game business) - One on One, Dr. J vs. Larry Bird.
Another fun exercise could be just "can you name 5 players who ever played this sport, (optionally not for your geographic team)". I haven't tried this experiment, but based on general conversations my best guess for current 30-50 year olds would be:
NHL:
Gretzky (50% of the time)
... Thinks they know they name of some other guy but can't get it
... No one else
MLB:
Babe Ruth
Barry Bonds
+1 named as "husband of..."
+1 addtl random person
NFL:
Mahomes
Brady
Manning
+1 other QB
Almost no chance a non-QB is named
NBA:
MJ
LeBron
Kobe
Shaq
+1 additional I think most people would succeed with fairly random results
Although an imaginary result I created with my own biases, it feels right that people would have the highest success rate in naming 5 basketball players over other sports. Also, if you think that most people could answer this easily for all sports, I am pretty confident that is wrong and not actually the general society demographic being discussed.
I'm pretty sure NFL is Brady and Travis Kelce lol
So Wilt, Jerry West, Rick Barry, Kareem, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy and the Celtic team under Auerbach, was not a major sport that reached the broader culture? I was around for all them. I can assure you they reached the broader culture. Perhaps you were just too young. Now, because of the internet, it is faster, and the players are so rich that they have branded clothing and accessories.
Would you extend that to Baseball, too?
As someone who falls close to the target audience (ie uninformed) being discussed for baseball, my guess is since 2000 the only people in baseball to qualify are Bonds and Ohtani. Prior to that my experience is more biased -- for 80s - 90s, emersed in bay area, Bash Bros and Rickey felt part of broader culture, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't extend far out of CA. The exercise is more about pop culture at the time so can't really comment much on pre-80's, but can say that in particular I would be hard pressed to name many 70's baseball legends, aside from the A's in general. Many legends for 20's to 60's, but I really have no idea how they were viewed at the time.
Baseball was much more dominant pre-80s than today, and much more so further back. There was the NFL and MLB in the '60s and '70s, in that order, but go back to the '50s and before that all the way to the Dead Ball era, and baseball was first. Walter Johnson and Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker and Christy Mathewson were household names, and once Babe Ruth hit his stride, he became internationally famous, even with limited radio broadcasts and no TV. Bob Cousy and Bill Russell were not household names, not really. There weren't many pro basketball teams, and games were rarely broadcast until the '60s, and even then not so much until the late '60s. (Even baseball wasn't on TV that much in the '50s, just the Game of the Week and the World Series for the most part.) Top boxers were much better known than basketball players; you knew about Joe Louis, Floyd Patterson, Rocky Marciano, and Sonny Liston. Heck, top race horses were probably better known than basketball players. Wilt got a lot of attention when he arrived but you could name 75, maybe 100 baseball players in the '50s without even trying who were better known than any basketball player of the day — and that's with 16 MLB teams. Really the same in the '60s, although basketball was getting better established. Go back to the '40s and before, and baseball was dominant.
It's crazy how a team (SA) that won 5 rings in 15 years doesn't have a player that is more well known to the broader public.
I know Tony Parker had some recognition from dating a star actress, but yep
Returning to the topic of my post, what happens if you ask a non-basketball fan to name current players?
I think this is pretty spot on, except as others below point out, I think you can add a 70s and put in Wilt and Kareem. I wasn't around, but my impression is that they were both solidly celebrities at the time.
KD is a close 3rd in this generation. I did this test last year and 100% named LeBron and Steph, and a handful named Durant. The only other non-Warrior (people knew Klay and Draymond, but that's a biased sample) more than 1 named was Kyrie, but for COVID and conspiracy reasons.
Before Bird and Magic there was Wilt Chamberlin ... he was very well known in the broader culture, and recognized for his size and athletic talents... even if the NBA was not considered a major sport in many eyes.
Major sports in the USA, NFL, by far, then Baseball, and Basketball.
Hey, Kareem was in Hollywood movies. Household name of the 60s/70s!
I'm not positive, but Kareem might have been more famous for his college basketball (undefeated UCLA) and being in movies with Bruce Lee, than for anything in the NBA
What a different world then. Freshman could not even play on the “varsity “ then, much less the NBA.
UCLA’s freshman team probably would have won the NCAA title when Kareem was a freshman. College hoops was so much better when guys had to stay.
And dunking was illegal!!
I forgot about that!
And no 3’s!
What a stupid game.😊
First of all, Kareem was a big name when he was still in high school. I remember when Power Memorial Academy's team came down to DC (near where I lived) to play DeMatha HS, two of the top teams in the country, and that was national news. As great as he was at UCLA, he was an absolute monster in the NBA from his rookie year, and the media were all over it. His second year he won a ring, the MVP, and the scoring title. His battles with Wilt got a lot of publicity. I think by his second or third year in the NBA he might have been the best known basketball player in the world other than Wilt. There's a reason he was in those Bruce Lee movies, and it wasn't that he was anything special as a martial artist. Plus he was outspoken about civil rights and became a Muslim and changed his name, and that was international news.
Older than you? How about you post a response with some actual content?
Edit: Basketbum was banned before for toxic posts and was on permanent probation upon his return. This low quality rude post was the last straw, so I’ve banned them again.
Pulling out the age card is crazy. Sorry we're not 90 and wasn't around when basketball was first invented.
Not speaking for Eric but I think the popularity of the NBA did not go mainstream, or peak the interest of non real hoop fans until Magic Bird.
When I was a kid I was a huge fan of “Lou Alcindor” Jerry West and the rest. Wilt the Stilt vs Russell. Earl the Pearl Monroe. Pete Maravich.
It was so different. Access was so limited.
Baseball was king in the old days.
In the 70s, NFL was king, baseball was second and pro basketball was a distant third. NBA Finals didn’t get on live television until the 1980s.
Boxing above basketball too. The '70s had all three Ali-Frazier fights, Ken Norton, George Foreman, Larry Holmes. And some of those big fights were massive international media events (think: the Thrilla in Manila, the Rumble in the Jungle). Ali was the best-known American and best-known athlete in the world.
I think he's the greatest, but my dad says he didn't work hard enough on defense.
And he says that lots of times, he didn't even run down court. And that he didn't really try... except during the playoffs.
Tell your old man to try dragging Bill Walton up and down the court for 48 minutes
On a serious note, Kareem was famous early on for his commitment to justice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Summit and boycotting the 1968 Olympics, for example).
And of course his skyhook and being the all-time points leader. But Magic (and Bird) did overshadow him some on the court in the 80's.
I definitely hear that, but I feel like he got famous before he set foot in the NBA. He became famous at UCLA and for those things you mention, which all happened before he joined the NBA. I haven’t done careful study but I would not be surprised if the general public knew who he was but didn’t know whether he was with the NBA, ABA or Globetrotters (who were all trying to recruit him).
In my uncareful opinion, I think 1970s basketball was the Kareem and Dr. J generation, but again, the NBA was in a truly dreadful state in the 1970s.
Very possible. And don't forget Airplane!
Roger
I'm gonna put Allen Iverson in the 2000-2014 category as well, great breakdown
Are we talking about great players that basketball fans would know or are we talking about household names that non-fans would recognize? Because if it's the latter, AI was not in that class.
Curry's career seems somehow more iconic to me than even Lebron's. Changed the game more than any player ever with the 3 pt revolution, only ever unanimous MVP, got to be the face of the best team of all time. Forever the personal hero of every baller under 6'5". He's synonymous with this era of basketball in the same way as Magic and Bird for the 80's. Of course this era was at least as much Lebron's as Curry's, but Lebron's legacy seems fated to forever be a pissing match between Jordan and Bron fans for the GOAT title. Curry on the other hand has a more unique "brand" so to speak, and is completely distinct from any other player on the top 10 list.
"Changed the game more than any player ever"
I guess that's a matter of perspective.
Steph changed the game by expanding the use of the 3-pointer and through that, the possibilities for smaller players. He influenced countless kids to want to play like him. The problem of course is that they aren't Steph. But they try.
That wasn't true of Wilt, since you had to be huge, as well as a super-athlete, to even attempt to play like him. But Wilt changed the rules of the game. Because of Wilt, the league widened the lane, created the offensive and defensive goaltending rules, and revised rules about inbounding the ball (for example, banned inbound passes over the backboard). They changed the rules for shooting free throws because Wilt could leap from behind the foul line to dunk the ball, so first the NCAA, and then the NBA, made a rule that the shooter must keep his feet behind the foul line. So Wilt changed the game in fundamental ways but in a different sense than Steph did.
Curry is more like a normal person that fans easily relate to. He doesn’t even dunk.
LeBron is a super physical specimen unlike a more normal human.
People can see themselves or their kid being Curry. Not LeBron.