My main problem with Wiseman is that there is a tantalizing glance at an elite player with his combination of size/athleticism/quickness combined with him being seemingly smart/hardworking person.
Athleticism/intelligence/hardworking + great situation seems like the perfect combo for his development but Wiseman's consistent mistakes are just infuriating beyond all measure with his buttery hands and poor defensive spacing in the pick and roll making him a player with pretty good counting stats but having a negative impact on the game.
If Wiseman could just cut down on all of these ridiculous mistakes while improving his pick and roll coverage than he would be a fantastic prospect that everyone could look forward to. I have high hopes that he can accomplish this just because he seems like an intelligent person who is extremely hard workin and the hope is that with more reps he can become less mistake prone. Hopefully the small minutes he ets initially on the big squad will allow for him to hone in on those mistakes and focus on making the simple play.
Mar 16, 2022·edited Mar 16, 2022Liked by Daniel Hardee
LaMelo or Haliburton would have been nice, but both would also have seriously hampered the development of Poole (who’s scoring more efficiently right now than either, and might be as high as #3 or #4 in a 2019 redraft). And we’d be left without a future center, though we might have signed a Chriss or a Hartenstein instead.
Overall, LaMelo + Hartenstein looks like a much better option *right now* than the route we took, but these things can change. Picking Tyreke over Curry looked like a brilliant move for SAC at this time in 2010.
Anyway, hindsight is 2020 — er, 20/20 — and I’m gonna be patient with young James, who’s played all of three G-League games after sitting on the shelf for a year. Let’s see where he is in (checks watch) a year or so?
Haliburton and Robinson would likely have removed the chance at Mood and prevented signing GP2. Shouldn’t have impacted Kuminga’s pick unless we are thinking LaMelo would have put the Knicks into the lottery last year. No way to tell.
I have enjoyed this year’s team, and personally would rather have GP2 than anyone else. But the team can still ruin everything by repeating last year’s mistakes with a certain #2 pick.
Everything about the 2020-21 season was impacted by the way the 2020 draft played out. There’s no way to know the 2021 draft would have played out exactly as it did — with the Minny pick conveying, OKC taking Giddey in front of us, all the other bad teams landing exactly where they did, etc. etc. etc. — had we taken LaMelo or Haliburton in 2020.
As it is we’re **extremely** lucky we snaggged potential franchise cornerstone JFK instead of Minny’s cruddy #18-20 pick in this year’s putatively cruddy draft.
Upon your prompting I looked at the 2019 draft class and Poole is easily top 10, and probably top 5, depending on what teams draft for their own needs.
Side question out of curiosity: How many starter-level talents are there from the 2019 draft? I count generously around 10, but I’m not familiar enough with how all the players have turned out.
Poole’s my personal #3 as well, but there will always be those teams who draft for fit than best talent, or go for name recognition like Herro or Keldon Johnson the Olympian XD
I think most people outside being a dubs fan would take Herro just because their stats look similar at a glance with Herro scoring more points. But a closer look you will see Poole has a higher TS%
Yep; and I trust Poole’s character and work ethic wayyyyy more than Herro’s too. Similar games and production to date, but as a franchise pillar, give me the guy who’s less likely to follow the Biedrins path into debauched hot tub parties with booze, blow, and babes…
Also worth noting that picking LaMelo might have precluded either or both of Moody and Kuminga — because who the heck knows how differently the 2021 season, standings, and lotto might have played out had the Warriors scrambled up the 2020 draft by picking LaMelo or Hali over Wiseman. There’s no reason to think a foursome of LaMelo, Poole (in his current form), Moody, and Kuminga could actually have existed, fun as it is to fantasize about.
Overall, it’s hard for me to get too upset about plucking a future core of Kuminga (19), Moody (19), Wiseman (20), Poole (22, or two years younger than Chris Duarte) in the span of three drafts. If — as a poster here suggested earlier — it makes people feel better to imagine we got Kuminga at #2, Poole at #7, Wiseman at #14, and Moody at #28, I support that whole-heartedly. I’m all about making people feel better!
I’m really curious about why returning players need to play to get in game shape - seemingly most of them at the start of the season. It often takes 10-15 games for players to get passed the ‘gassed quickly’ phase. The really disciplined players (like GP2 it seems) who prepare themselves and are in ‘game shape’ early can do well at the start of the season.
Check out this article by an Olympic distance skater (multiple gold medalist and world record setter) about what it takes to be in insane aerobic shape. I’d love for the Dubs to see this.
You answered your own question: Highly disciplined guys like GP2, Steph, Poole, and Igoudala come to camp in great shape and mostly need to play to sharpen game-specific skills. In the NFL, you'll recall that Walter Payton and Jerry Rice were legendary for their extreme off-season conditioning. But plenty of very good athletes, while they may work at their conditioning, lack that supreme level of discipline. That's why we especially notice those who do have it.
Look, I'm a Wiseman hater. I hated the pick at the time and nothing last year has really changed my mind. Here are my problems with Wiseman last year:
1) His shot selection was awful last year. He averaged more than 2 dunks a game and his TS% was still below average.
2) Defense. The game was just too fast for him last year. He constantly fouled. 5.2 fouls/36. And his being out of position consistently led to bigs destroying us inside. 113 defensive rating when he was on the court.
3) His rebounding. When on the court last year, the Dubs got out-rebounded by 6%. They were outrebounded without Wise too, but they performed better on the boards when he was off the court.
4) His complete lack of vision. He's a black hole on offense averaging 1.1 AST/36. That's worse than Oubre. Combined with 2.6 TOV/36, that's a recipe for disaster in the Kerr offense.
5) His FT%. Low 60's means his jump shot may simply be bad. And he's in love with it. Which leads to issue #1.
The problem with all of those is how much you can improve on those while not actually playing against NBA caliber competition at full speed. He is physically capable of doing things very few human beings can do. But reading an offense of NBA athletes moving at full speed? Can you really improve that solely watching tape or at walking pace while also rehabbing your knee? I think to have any chance to prove me wrong, he's gonna need just a ton of full speed reps and that means G-League, summer league, training camp, scrimmages. And it means he needs a full summer of playing before I'd give him meaningful minutes in any game that truly mattered.
I don't think #4 is fair. He's a center and not a playmaking one at that and that's perfectly fine. His role in the offense is to finish plays off of the playmakers passes, not create shots for others.
This 1000xthis! Wiseman was the Baalke classic, screw the coach I know better pick. It makes zero sense to take a non passing big unless you’re trying to power play Kerr out because he’s getting too much credit, or won’t let the drunk kid’s friends in the lockerroom or something.
I think a plausible outcome for Wiseman is that he just isn't a positive contributor on the court at any time during his 3 years on a rookie contract, and then the Warriors will be faced with the awful dilemma of paying him even more big bucks based on a hope and a few minutes of potential, or letting him walk and finally put together his first actually good season on a different team.
Hoping it comes together just a little bit faster for him, but I'm not putting any money on it.
1000 reps later - I think by this time next season the FO would have seen enough to make a judgement. As Duby previously mentioned, Wise made really good strides last season just before he got injured. It was a small sample size, but the rate of growth was good. He’s started off with such a low base it’s going to take him a while even if he picks things up relatively quickly.
Plus if JP & JK are going to own this team in 5 years, maybe Wise just becomes an above average C and maybe that’s OK for the pick?
0:00 Wiseman wins the tip-off. This should be a gimme, every night.
0:00-11:41 - First play. JW sets three screens in a row, two off-ball and then an on-ball screen that allows the ball handler to get to the hoop and score in traffic.
- 11:24 - Plays drop coverage across the paint. Tries to box out, but gets pushed towards the basket, and the shot banks off the rim, going over his head. He could've (A) held his position better, and (B) jumped preemptively to grab the rebound knowing that he had teammates to either side of him to grab a clank off the side.
- 11:17 - Runs fast in transition, and receives a poor pass as he enters the paint. He has to reach behind him, seems to catch the ball, but fumbles it heading up to the rim and ball goes OOB. It almost looks like it was poked by the trailing defender, but on replay, it looks like a pure fumble.
- 11:04 - Drops too aggressively defending the driver, IMO, but it's a miss. Fails to box-out and the rebound goes to ACC right in a spot where Wiseman would've been if he had boxed out.
X - 10:29 - Plays good drop defense, and forces the driver to change his shot, clanking it.
- 10:16 - Slightly slow for an on-ball screen which the defender easily slips. Cuts slowly to the basket, but the ball handler misses the pass, anyways, drive and kick.
X - 9:42 - takes up a position on the low post, and just kinda wanders around between there and the short corner, watching the ball bounce around the perimeter. Missed the opportunity for a baseline cross-screen that woulda sprung free a three from the corner.
9:36 - good box out.
9:18 - drops too far defending a screen and the ball handler pulls up from the elbow with a wide open shot (JW backpedals halfway to the basket)
- 9:06 on-ball pick and roll, receives a poorly thrown/timed ally-top and tries to off-balance left-handed heave to the basket but misses.
- 8:54 beautiful late rotation, recovery, and block.
- 8:29 once again, drops too deep on a screen-switch, miss this time, gets pushed away back under the basket on the rebound - another failed box-out that might've resulted in a rebound.
- 7:54 no-look pass in transition leads JW by too much, and he misses it. Can't tell whether JW slowed, or the teammate just overthrew. This is just learning to play together.
2:10-1:52 checks back in - once again drops too deep on a screen-switch at the wing, but ball handler misses.
- 1:45. Pick and roll, receives the pass on roll, and doesn't go up aggressively enough, rejected/stripped at the hoop.
- 1:38 DROPS TOO DEEP on a screen-switch at the elbow-wing. This is getting tedious.
- 1:27 receives the ball just inside elbow, aggressively goes up to score AND ONE through contact. Flashes a smile after the shot. Hits FT.
- 1:12. Clippers keep attacking Wiseman on these switches at the wing. This time, the big rolls, and it's not clear whether JW was too deep. He defended the roll-man, and arguably another Dub shoulda rotated.
- 0:59 fails to pick up a guard in transition who spots up for a wide open 3 on the wing. misses.
- 0:41 open under the basket in transition, teammates don't see him, ball swings around perimeter - corner 3 miss. Rebound goes right to Wiseman, but a Clipper gets up and knocks it from his hands OOB. Warrior ball. Poor rebound.
- 0:33 Starts at elbow, misses opp for on-ball screen or p'n'r. Misses pop for a cut to the basket on the drive - stands at FT line, receives the kick, and misses the elbow jumper.
- 0:23 once again gets attacked on screen-switch at the top of the key, drops too deep, but still forces a miss.
Last play of Q1: gets attacked on screen-switch again, drops out of the play, but the screened defender fights back to contest the shot. jumper goes in from the FT line while JW watches from under the basket.
Q2 - 11:30 - misses an easy ally-top. Can't tell why. Did he jump too early? Not aggressively enough? Just miss it going down? Was the pass too high? It's an ugly look, regardless.
X - 6:54 - subbed back in, correctly switches off his guy on a drive to contest an open layup, driver passes to his guy who puts it in easily.
- 6:30 tries to set a cross-screen, but doesn't realize ACC is in a zone. Pass to JW along the baseline is kicked.
- 6:20 tries a couple screens while milling around the FT line/top of the key, but it seems like SCW is struggling with penetrating the zone. JW finally receives the ball on the FT line with a man to beat, but surrounded by red jerseys 4-6 feet away. I would've loved to see him attack the basket and try to beat his man, but he wisely chooses to kick the ball back out. Gets it back at the top of the key with 4 seconds on the shot clock and immediately turns and fires a long 2pter that misses.
6:09(!!!) Finally jumps out at the ballhandler on a screen-switch but it becomes a double-team, and ACC finds the open man for a 3.
5:39 ticky-tack travel call on JW at the FT line. On replay, it looks like he jumps just as he's catching the ball, but the ref saw it as just after.
- 5:25 rotates off his man to unnecessarily help on the drive, but luckily the driver didn't see and the kick goes back to the perimeter.
- 4:50 gets out jumped for a defensive rebound.
- 4:23 Defense - screen-switch on the wing, drops too deep. elbow jumper is good. This is getting old.
X - 3:43 Offense: off-ball screen becomes on-ball screen, with enough space for a JP/Steph/Klay 3P'er, but the SC ball handler drives and hands off instead.
X - 3:23 Offense: catches the ball under the hoop in semi-transition. Good contested catch in traffic. Is double-teamed, so chooses to pass out, but fumbles the pass and hits an ACC player at the elbow for an easy transition basket.
Halftime.
I, umm, really wanted to watch the whole game, but this is really disheartening, and I think I'm out. LOL.
TLDR: Consistently drops too deep on defense when the offense forces a switch on a screen, allowing easy pull-up jumpers from the elbow/FT line. Doesn't box out well - often loses position and gets pushed around, even though he's the biggest guy out there. Fights decently for rebounds. Has fumbled multiple transition passes - can't tell whether it's chemistry and timing or poor hands - probably both. Occasionally wanders around looking lost. That was a really disappointing first half.
He played much better in the second, got some blocks and great post scores, the drop coverage is just not going to work for him right now, hes much better when he attacks the ball handler aggressively
- 11:41 He doesn't DROP on a screen, and challenges the ball handler, forcing a pass!!! Then he manhandles a Clipper for the aggressive defensive Rebound.
- 11:25 D: once again doesn't drop and forces a pass on the screen-switch! Also, more aggressive on the box out and grabs the rebound.
- 11:04. D: Clipps attack him again on a screen-switch, and JW blocks the elbow jumper!
- 10:49 D: good D rotation to cover the opposing cutter, while keeping a hand-out to potentially slow the drive.
- 10:24 O: receives the ball in the low post- passes out. Misses an opportunity for a screen to spring ball-handler into the corner.
- 10:18 O: receives rock in low post. gets double. finds open man.
- 10:07 D: Misses dubious rotation as weak-side low man - would've left a very open man if he rotated. Arguably shoulda communicated and had strong side low-man rotate, as his man was going cross-court along the baseline, and JW coulda zoned both.
- 9:49 plays ring around the ACC player with the ball handler, fails to screen or make an impact on the play.
-9:19 aggressively drives into the lane from the top of the key, goes around a defender for a layup off the backboard that's too hard and misses.
-9:12 great recovery on defense in transition to challenge the outback and knock it out of bounds.
- good D, his man tags the on-ball defender, but Wiseman doesn't jump out, choosing to guard his man, on-ball defender recovers but bites on a fake and allows the step-back.
8:52 - O: This is why Wiseman maxi's love him. Drive and kick in transition, last one to the top of the key, he receives it in rotation, immediately attacks the zone, splitting two defenders, then going up and over a 3rd, hitting the easy bank from the low-post. Eye-popping. Looks like a taller Kuminga with more elevation and a good bank shot.
8:42 once again fails to contest screen switch. watches a jumper at the elbow go in.
8:22 another offensive beauty. Once again attacks the zone from the top of the key, 3 red jersey's collapse on him, but he splits two, and hits an easy lefty hook layup at the basket.
8:04 - correctly defends the screen-switch TWICE, forcing a reset and then a kick that gets intercepted.
2:30 - rotates a split-second late on a drive as the weak-side low man, allowing a floater over him to drop in the basket
2:04 - good defensive box out
1:56 - takes up position on the block, watches his teammate drive to the hoop, get in front of the basket, get stuck, and kick the ball. JW doesn't move off the block at all, misses an opportunity to cut to the basket as his defender goes to double the ball handler.
1:52 - O: receives the ball on the block, rotates to the middle of the key, fakes a pass to distract the double, hits a smooth looking easy lefty hook over his defender from 6-8 ft.
1:09 - over-rotates to defend an elbow jumper, leaving his man open, but the jumper hits so it didn't really matter.
0:46 O receives the ball at the FT line. doesn't attack, but surveys for a moment - it seems like he didn't know where the defenders were, so had to turn around to figure out the lay of the land. could've faked a handoff to the teammate coming up from the block, and then drive, but doesn't see it. kicks the ball out to the wing, goes up for an on-ball screen, rolls to the block, receives the roll-pass on the block, goes up over the double-team for a nice soft-touch basket.
0:32 gets caught while on help D during a pick and roll in which both the ball handler and the roll man are beating their defenders. Contests the layup late, possibly causing it to miss off the backboard. Roll-man gets an easy putback. Hard to say if he had stayed on the roll- man whether the shot would've missed, but he might've gotten the rebound if it did.
0:13 receives and scores a great ally-oop
Q4-11:42 O: good off-ball screen, good on-ball screen. gets in position for rebound, fights for it among 3 red jerseys, but misses.
-11:23 Guards his man well under the basket, but just as the ball handler penetrates and gets an open lane to the basket, JW (a) doesn't leave his man to contest, but also (b) gets pushed around/boxed out by his man and loses 3 feet of ground under the basket. layup is good regardless. I think he has to contest the layup and force the ball handler to pass it under the basket.
- 11:11 O: receives the ball on a great cut into the low paint. gets fouled. Misses FT.
- 10:22 D: decent drop defense - deters two potential drives, forcing a kick to JW's man at the top of the arc, who fakes, then hits an open 3pter. Wiseman wasn't close to contesting, though that was probably more a rotation failure than a JW failure.
- 10:06 O: offensive turnover. unclear, but I think JW committed a 3 second violation.
- 9:51 - beautiful block. necessitated by a failed box-out from the Dubs
- 9:40 another offensive 3 second violation by JW
- 9:21 defense the screen switch layup to the basket, forcing a kick.
- 9:16 rotates as the help defender, but a floater goes over his head. Could he have rotated more aggressively?
- 9:00 O: nice rebound over several ACC players for an easy outback.
- 8:40 doesn't drop too deep on screens at the wing - deters any potential drive.
- 8:35 UGLY ally-pop miss
Out of game - minutes restriction.
TLDR: Much much better than before. Only got beat twice on the screen-switch drop defense that he got beat on a million times in the first half. Defended it well multiple times. Still looks lost a bit on offense sometimes when off-ball (2 3 second violations - and some other plays where he either just stood around, not taking advantage of opportunities or seemed to run around without purpsose). That should go away as he learns the system, but he does put good effort into off-ball screens and you can tell it's clearly a part of his game he's working on - that should help him integrate into the big league club. Slow to react when he has the rock on offense - he seems to need a moment to survey the landscape - figure out where defenders are, but when he does attack - it's beautiful. On-ball offense, he reminds me of early season Kuminga - we would scream at him to drive, and JFK would either pass it or brick a long jumper (Of course, now when he shoots a 3pter, it's money). However, when JFK did drive, it was a thing of beauty. JW doesn't dunk as much, but he has a beautiful 2-6 ft floater that was absolutely money in the second half.
From non-basketball maven…..Compared to last season, he is consistently trying to set screens. He consistently runs to defend the basket. He works to block out under the basket. He has improved his hook shots. He was often open and teammates missed him. He tried to receive a bunch of poor passes. And he seems much more aware where he puts his feet and arms. Last year it seemed like he was all over the place. This year it seems like he knows where he wants to go.
Thanks for all this! I missed this game, saw a good bit of the previous two SCW games with Wiseman. Not that it justifies JW's shortcomings but the SCW games I've seen recently on TV (not just the JW games) were pretty hard to watch, some really bad basketball. I don't imagine that helps him much.
Why cant wiseman develop a KAT like post game in which hes not even the main focus on offense? If draymond is handling the ball, eiseman sets a screen on the wing for curry they absolutely can not switch that anymore or they will be punished inside, Wiseman's potential is that he can literally take away the one thing that gives the warriors offense trouble, which is switching
If I squint, I do think Wiseman's current tendencies seem KAT-like, but obviously the actual ability is nowhere near KAT.
Otherwise, I think it's clear we're just not gonna see how capable Wiseman is as a role-player in the G-League. SCW looks barely capable of running basic PnR, much less letting Wiseman experiment running post splits and stuff.
If he's going to continue playing with SCW, I feel like its best to generally ignore the offense outside of the very general stuff like pushing the pace / running in transition and using his physicality instead of settling for jumpers.
Say what you will about KAT, he is a really, really good offensive player with fantastic touch. While it would be great to just add even just KAT's post up game, it's not so easy to implement.
I'm sold on wiseman, all the complaints on him are stuff that will get ironed out with experience, the touch he is showing and some of these post moves with such little experience shows just how much potential he has
I’ve been a Wiseman defender/apologist, but his troubles hanging on to rebounds and balls thrown to him are a concern. It looks like he’s regressed. I know it’s only his 3rd game, but working on his hand-eye coordination with drills seems like the one skill he could have done during most of the time while he was rehabbing
The passing is really bad. Also I didn't see this game but on Sunday several times his teammates got in his way on rebounds instead of helping. They don't know how to play together.
Hey Abbadon I thought Of you earlier because I’m watching this game on ESPN Plus here in Columbia Mo and there was this local ad that came on for Rottler Pest Solutions and their opening line was “With global climate change, we are starting to see pest issues year round”. Man about the only people that believe in global
Climate change around these parts are people that live within a couple
In other news Steph passed Antawn Jamison and Tom Chambers on the all-time scoring list last game to vault into 47th. He’s 346 points behind Joe Johnson, so would need to average 24.7 ppg over the last 14 to pass him.
I wonder who sold the city of Ontario on the idea of having an nba sized arena. I drive by that arena on the way in and out of California when im out in Texas and I’ve always thought “Why is there a big ass arena in the outskirts of the Inland Empire?”
I'd love to see Wiseman try to do actual Warriors basketball things like off-ball screens and split cuts, but it appears this SCW squad is incapable of running GSW offense.
Ugh watching this Santa Cruz game: I would hate to be a big man in that league.
Wiseman plays with energy and he’s tall. Nate Duncan said the most brutal analysis on his podcast: Wiseman’s current NBA skillset is finishing uncontested dunks.
Wiseman still thinks he’s Durant and turns post moves that should lead to dunks and layups into fadeaways.
Wiseman still plays D like a HS center giving up wide open 3’s and contesting shots he can’t alter and removing himself from the defensive rebounding position. Duncan’s analysis seems a bit harsh, but There’s zero chance he’s ready to be a playoff positive this year. Bob please go do your job and keep the brain trust off of Kerr’s back. Maybe don’t even put him on the playoff roster.
Watching Wiseman play this game was so frustrating since he had SO many unforced errors (two blown lobs) and legit 5 times where he failed to catch/secure the ball and then a traveling call/three second in paint
Like if it wasnt for all these mistakes his game wouldn't have been that bad at all with 15 points/9 rebounds/3 blocks in 21 minutes.
He honestly needs minutes/reps to cut out all these stupid mistakes + constant work/focus on his butterfinger hands and he would be quite the positive prospect even with his defensive miscues.
Defensively he was much better in terms of pick/roll defense and rim protection helping from the weakside. Still not that great but better than before and far more palatable for the NBA.
> Defensively he was much better in terms of pick/roll defense
They seemed to be playing a pretty extreme drop coverage with him, I'm not sure how much that would really translate to the NBA.
He needs reps in other coverages imo, I disagree with people saying he should be done with the G-League because I think he could use all the G-League reps he can get.
I'm more focused on how good his touch around the rim looked, he had some makes that wowed me, all those mistakes will clean up when the game slows down for him
Looking back at the 2020 Draft class and knowing what we know now about those players, would y’all take any of the other lottery picks over Wiseman?
My main problem with Wiseman is that there is a tantalizing glance at an elite player with his combination of size/athleticism/quickness combined with him being seemingly smart/hardworking person.
Athleticism/intelligence/hardworking + great situation seems like the perfect combo for his development but Wiseman's consistent mistakes are just infuriating beyond all measure with his buttery hands and poor defensive spacing in the pick and roll making him a player with pretty good counting stats but having a negative impact on the game.
If Wiseman could just cut down on all of these ridiculous mistakes while improving his pick and roll coverage than he would be a fantastic prospect that everyone could look forward to. I have high hopes that he can accomplish this just because he seems like an intelligent person who is extremely hard workin and the hope is that with more reps he can become less mistake prone. Hopefully the small minutes he ets initially on the big squad will allow for him to hone in on those mistakes and focus on making the simple play.
I still think wiseman has the most potential out of all of them, is wisemans floor a high motor defensive KAT with less shooting? Idk
LaMelo or Haliburton would have been nice, but both would also have seriously hampered the development of Poole (who’s scoring more efficiently right now than either, and might be as high as #3 or #4 in a 2019 redraft). And we’d be left without a future center, though we might have signed a Chriss or a Hartenstein instead.
Overall, LaMelo + Hartenstein looks like a much better option *right now* than the route we took, but these things can change. Picking Tyreke over Curry looked like a brilliant move for SAC at this time in 2010.
Anyway, hindsight is 2020 — er, 20/20 — and I’m gonna be patient with young James, who’s played all of three G-League games after sitting on the shelf for a year. Let’s see where he is in (checks watch) a year or so?
Haliburton and Robinson would likely have removed the chance at Mood and prevented signing GP2. Shouldn’t have impacted Kuminga’s pick unless we are thinking LaMelo would have put the Knicks into the lottery last year. No way to tell.
I have enjoyed this year’s team, and personally would rather have GP2 than anyone else. But the team can still ruin everything by repeating last year’s mistakes with a certain #2 pick.
Everything about the 2020-21 season was impacted by the way the 2020 draft played out. There’s no way to know the 2021 draft would have played out exactly as it did — with the Minny pick conveying, OKC taking Giddey in front of us, all the other bad teams landing exactly where they did, etc. etc. etc. — had we taken LaMelo or Haliburton in 2020.
As it is we’re **extremely** lucky we snaggged potential franchise cornerstone JFK instead of Minny’s cruddy #18-20 pick in this year’s putatively cruddy draft.
This speaks to the fallacy of any sort of alternative history "what if." It's impossible to foresee all the possible consequences of any alternative.
Upon your prompting I looked at the 2019 draft class and Poole is easily top 10, and probably top 5, depending on what teams draft for their own needs.
I think he’s #3, after Ja and Garland, personally. Would anyone here trade JP for Zion?
Side question out of curiosity: How many starter-level talents are there from the 2019 draft? I count generously around 10, but I’m not familiar enough with how all the players have turned out.
Poole’s my personal #3 as well, but there will always be those teams who draft for fit than best talent, or go for name recognition like Herro or Keldon Johnson the Olympian XD
I think most people outside being a dubs fan would take Herro just because their stats look similar at a glance with Herro scoring more points. But a closer look you will see Poole has a higher TS%
Yep; and I trust Poole’s character and work ethic wayyyyy more than Herro’s too. Similar games and production to date, but as a franchise pillar, give me the guy who’s less likely to follow the Biedrins path into debauched hot tub parties with booze, blow, and babes…
That sounds fun lol
…
Also worth noting that picking LaMelo might have precluded either or both of Moody and Kuminga — because who the heck knows how differently the 2021 season, standings, and lotto might have played out had the Warriors scrambled up the 2020 draft by picking LaMelo or Hali over Wiseman. There’s no reason to think a foursome of LaMelo, Poole (in his current form), Moody, and Kuminga could actually have existed, fun as it is to fantasize about.
Overall, it’s hard for me to get too upset about plucking a future core of Kuminga (19), Moody (19), Wiseman (20), Poole (22, or two years younger than Chris Duarte) in the span of three drafts. If — as a poster here suggested earlier — it makes people feel better to imagine we got Kuminga at #2, Poole at #7, Wiseman at #14, and Moody at #28, I support that whole-heartedly. I’m all about making people feel better!
Can’t say im not happy about your way of seeing things haha.
Moody is a steal at 14#
Flip Wiseman and Moody and I’m in as long as the Brain trust is too.
Just gonna say flip those two and we got a deal.
I’m really curious about why returning players need to play to get in game shape - seemingly most of them at the start of the season. It often takes 10-15 games for players to get passed the ‘gassed quickly’ phase. The really disciplined players (like GP2 it seems) who prepare themselves and are in ‘game shape’ early can do well at the start of the season.
Check out this article by an Olympic distance skater (multiple gold medalist and world record setter) about what it takes to be in insane aerobic shape. I’d love for the Dubs to see this.
https://www.howtoskate.se/_files/ugd/e11bfe_b783631375f543248e271f440bcd45c5.pdf
You answered your own question: Highly disciplined guys like GP2, Steph, Poole, and Igoudala come to camp in great shape and mostly need to play to sharpen game-specific skills. In the NFL, you'll recall that Walter Payton and Jerry Rice were legendary for their extreme off-season conditioning. But plenty of very good athletes, while they may work at their conditioning, lack that supreme level of discipline. That's why we especially notice those who do have it.
Look, I'm a Wiseman hater. I hated the pick at the time and nothing last year has really changed my mind. Here are my problems with Wiseman last year:
1) His shot selection was awful last year. He averaged more than 2 dunks a game and his TS% was still below average.
2) Defense. The game was just too fast for him last year. He constantly fouled. 5.2 fouls/36. And his being out of position consistently led to bigs destroying us inside. 113 defensive rating when he was on the court.
3) His rebounding. When on the court last year, the Dubs got out-rebounded by 6%. They were outrebounded without Wise too, but they performed better on the boards when he was off the court.
4) His complete lack of vision. He's a black hole on offense averaging 1.1 AST/36. That's worse than Oubre. Combined with 2.6 TOV/36, that's a recipe for disaster in the Kerr offense.
5) His FT%. Low 60's means his jump shot may simply be bad. And he's in love with it. Which leads to issue #1.
The problem with all of those is how much you can improve on those while not actually playing against NBA caliber competition at full speed. He is physically capable of doing things very few human beings can do. But reading an offense of NBA athletes moving at full speed? Can you really improve that solely watching tape or at walking pace while also rehabbing your knee? I think to have any chance to prove me wrong, he's gonna need just a ton of full speed reps and that means G-League, summer league, training camp, scrimmages. And it means he needs a full summer of playing before I'd give him meaningful minutes in any game that truly mattered.
And yet he was 19/10 per 36 in his rookie season.
His counting stats were fine, but he was one of the worst players in the league last year. The Warriors were just not good when he played.
I don't think #4 is fair. He's a center and not a playmaking one at that and that's perfectly fine. His role in the offense is to finish plays off of the playmakers passes, not create shots for others.
that's not really the role of the center in Kerr's offense tho, which is big on having multiple playmakers in the frontcourt
This 1000xthis! Wiseman was the Baalke classic, screw the coach I know better pick. It makes zero sense to take a non passing big unless you’re trying to power play Kerr out because he’s getting too much credit, or won’t let the drunk kid’s friends in the lockerroom or something.
I think a plausible outcome for Wiseman is that he just isn't a positive contributor on the court at any time during his 3 years on a rookie contract, and then the Warriors will be faced with the awful dilemma of paying him even more big bucks based on a hope and a few minutes of potential, or letting him walk and finally put together his first actually good season on a different team.
Hoping it comes together just a little bit faster for him, but I'm not putting any money on it.
1000 reps later - I think by this time next season the FO would have seen enough to make a judgement. As Duby previously mentioned, Wise made really good strides last season just before he got injured. It was a small sample size, but the rate of growth was good. He’s started off with such a low base it’s going to take him a while even if he picks things up relatively quickly.
Plus if JP & JK are going to own this team in 5 years, maybe Wise just becomes an above average C and maybe that’s OK for the pick?
Watching the replay of Wiseman's work tonight:
0:00 Wiseman wins the tip-off. This should be a gimme, every night.
0:00-11:41 - First play. JW sets three screens in a row, two off-ball and then an on-ball screen that allows the ball handler to get to the hoop and score in traffic.
- 11:24 - Plays drop coverage across the paint. Tries to box out, but gets pushed towards the basket, and the shot banks off the rim, going over his head. He could've (A) held his position better, and (B) jumped preemptively to grab the rebound knowing that he had teammates to either side of him to grab a clank off the side.
- 11:17 - Runs fast in transition, and receives a poor pass as he enters the paint. He has to reach behind him, seems to catch the ball, but fumbles it heading up to the rim and ball goes OOB. It almost looks like it was poked by the trailing defender, but on replay, it looks like a pure fumble.
- 11:04 - Drops too aggressively defending the driver, IMO, but it's a miss. Fails to box-out and the rebound goes to ACC right in a spot where Wiseman would've been if he had boxed out.
X - 10:29 - Plays good drop defense, and forces the driver to change his shot, clanking it.
- 10:16 - Slightly slow for an on-ball screen which the defender easily slips. Cuts slowly to the basket, but the ball handler misses the pass, anyways, drive and kick.
X - 9:42 - takes up a position on the low post, and just kinda wanders around between there and the short corner, watching the ball bounce around the perimeter. Missed the opportunity for a baseline cross-screen that woulda sprung free a three from the corner.
9:36 - good box out.
9:18 - drops too far defending a screen and the ball handler pulls up from the elbow with a wide open shot (JW backpedals halfway to the basket)
- 9:06 on-ball pick and roll, receives a poorly thrown/timed ally-top and tries to off-balance left-handed heave to the basket but misses.
- 8:54 beautiful late rotation, recovery, and block.
- 8:29 once again, drops too deep on a screen-switch, miss this time, gets pushed away back under the basket on the rebound - another failed box-out that might've resulted in a rebound.
- 7:54 no-look pass in transition leads JW by too much, and he misses it. Can't tell whether JW slowed, or the teammate just overthrew. This is just learning to play together.
2:10-1:52 checks back in - once again drops too deep on a screen-switch at the wing, but ball handler misses.
- 1:45. Pick and roll, receives the pass on roll, and doesn't go up aggressively enough, rejected/stripped at the hoop.
- 1:38 DROPS TOO DEEP on a screen-switch at the elbow-wing. This is getting tedious.
- 1:27 receives the ball just inside elbow, aggressively goes up to score AND ONE through contact. Flashes a smile after the shot. Hits FT.
- 1:12. Clippers keep attacking Wiseman on these switches at the wing. This time, the big rolls, and it's not clear whether JW was too deep. He defended the roll-man, and arguably another Dub shoulda rotated.
- 0:59 fails to pick up a guard in transition who spots up for a wide open 3 on the wing. misses.
- 0:41 open under the basket in transition, teammates don't see him, ball swings around perimeter - corner 3 miss. Rebound goes right to Wiseman, but a Clipper gets up and knocks it from his hands OOB. Warrior ball. Poor rebound.
- 0:33 Starts at elbow, misses opp for on-ball screen or p'n'r. Misses pop for a cut to the basket on the drive - stands at FT line, receives the kick, and misses the elbow jumper.
- 0:23 once again gets attacked on screen-switch at the top of the key, drops too deep, but still forces a miss.
Last play of Q1: gets attacked on screen-switch again, drops out of the play, but the screened defender fights back to contest the shot. jumper goes in from the FT line while JW watches from under the basket.
Q2 - 11:30 - misses an easy ally-top. Can't tell why. Did he jump too early? Not aggressively enough? Just miss it going down? Was the pass too high? It's an ugly look, regardless.
X - 6:54 - subbed back in, correctly switches off his guy on a drive to contest an open layup, driver passes to his guy who puts it in easily.
- 6:30 tries to set a cross-screen, but doesn't realize ACC is in a zone. Pass to JW along the baseline is kicked.
- 6:20 tries a couple screens while milling around the FT line/top of the key, but it seems like SCW is struggling with penetrating the zone. JW finally receives the ball on the FT line with a man to beat, but surrounded by red jerseys 4-6 feet away. I would've loved to see him attack the basket and try to beat his man, but he wisely chooses to kick the ball back out. Gets it back at the top of the key with 4 seconds on the shot clock and immediately turns and fires a long 2pter that misses.
6:09(!!!) Finally jumps out at the ballhandler on a screen-switch but it becomes a double-team, and ACC finds the open man for a 3.
5:39 ticky-tack travel call on JW at the FT line. On replay, it looks like he jumps just as he's catching the ball, but the ref saw it as just after.
- 5:25 rotates off his man to unnecessarily help on the drive, but luckily the driver didn't see and the kick goes back to the perimeter.
- 4:50 gets out jumped for a defensive rebound.
- 4:23 Defense - screen-switch on the wing, drops too deep. elbow jumper is good. This is getting old.
X - 3:43 Offense: off-ball screen becomes on-ball screen, with enough space for a JP/Steph/Klay 3P'er, but the SC ball handler drives and hands off instead.
X - 3:23 Offense: catches the ball under the hoop in semi-transition. Good contested catch in traffic. Is double-teamed, so chooses to pass out, but fumbles the pass and hits an ACC player at the elbow for an easy transition basket.
Halftime.
I, umm, really wanted to watch the whole game, but this is really disheartening, and I think I'm out. LOL.
TLDR: Consistently drops too deep on defense when the offense forces a switch on a screen, allowing easy pull-up jumpers from the elbow/FT line. Doesn't box out well - often loses position and gets pushed around, even though he's the biggest guy out there. Fights decently for rebounds. Has fumbled multiple transition passes - can't tell whether it's chemistry and timing or poor hands - probably both. Occasionally wanders around looking lost. That was a really disappointing first half.
Thanks for posting all these notes.
He played much better in the second, got some blocks and great post scores, the drop coverage is just not going to work for him right now, hes much better when he attacks the ball handler aggressively
OK. I bit. Started watching the second half.
- 11:41 He doesn't DROP on a screen, and challenges the ball handler, forcing a pass!!! Then he manhandles a Clipper for the aggressive defensive Rebound.
- 11:25 D: once again doesn't drop and forces a pass on the screen-switch! Also, more aggressive on the box out and grabs the rebound.
- 11:04. D: Clipps attack him again on a screen-switch, and JW blocks the elbow jumper!
- 10:49 D: good D rotation to cover the opposing cutter, while keeping a hand-out to potentially slow the drive.
- 10:24 O: receives the ball in the low post- passes out. Misses an opportunity for a screen to spring ball-handler into the corner.
- 10:18 O: receives rock in low post. gets double. finds open man.
- 10:07 D: Misses dubious rotation as weak-side low man - would've left a very open man if he rotated. Arguably shoulda communicated and had strong side low-man rotate, as his man was going cross-court along the baseline, and JW coulda zoned both.
- 9:49 plays ring around the ACC player with the ball handler, fails to screen or make an impact on the play.
-9:19 aggressively drives into the lane from the top of the key, goes around a defender for a layup off the backboard that's too hard and misses.
-9:12 great recovery on defense in transition to challenge the outback and knock it out of bounds.
- good D, his man tags the on-ball defender, but Wiseman doesn't jump out, choosing to guard his man, on-ball defender recovers but bites on a fake and allows the step-back.
8:52 - O: This is why Wiseman maxi's love him. Drive and kick in transition, last one to the top of the key, he receives it in rotation, immediately attacks the zone, splitting two defenders, then going up and over a 3rd, hitting the easy bank from the low-post. Eye-popping. Looks like a taller Kuminga with more elevation and a good bank shot.
8:42 once again fails to contest screen switch. watches a jumper at the elbow go in.
8:22 another offensive beauty. Once again attacks the zone from the top of the key, 3 red jersey's collapse on him, but he splits two, and hits an easy lefty hook layup at the basket.
8:04 - correctly defends the screen-switch TWICE, forcing a reset and then a kick that gets intercepted.
2:30 - rotates a split-second late on a drive as the weak-side low man, allowing a floater over him to drop in the basket
2:04 - good defensive box out
1:56 - takes up position on the block, watches his teammate drive to the hoop, get in front of the basket, get stuck, and kick the ball. JW doesn't move off the block at all, misses an opportunity to cut to the basket as his defender goes to double the ball handler.
1:52 - O: receives the ball on the block, rotates to the middle of the key, fakes a pass to distract the double, hits a smooth looking easy lefty hook over his defender from 6-8 ft.
1:09 - over-rotates to defend an elbow jumper, leaving his man open, but the jumper hits so it didn't really matter.
0:46 O receives the ball at the FT line. doesn't attack, but surveys for a moment - it seems like he didn't know where the defenders were, so had to turn around to figure out the lay of the land. could've faked a handoff to the teammate coming up from the block, and then drive, but doesn't see it. kicks the ball out to the wing, goes up for an on-ball screen, rolls to the block, receives the roll-pass on the block, goes up over the double-team for a nice soft-touch basket.
0:32 gets caught while on help D during a pick and roll in which both the ball handler and the roll man are beating their defenders. Contests the layup late, possibly causing it to miss off the backboard. Roll-man gets an easy putback. Hard to say if he had stayed on the roll- man whether the shot would've missed, but he might've gotten the rebound if it did.
0:13 receives and scores a great ally-oop
Q4-11:42 O: good off-ball screen, good on-ball screen. gets in position for rebound, fights for it among 3 red jerseys, but misses.
-11:23 Guards his man well under the basket, but just as the ball handler penetrates and gets an open lane to the basket, JW (a) doesn't leave his man to contest, but also (b) gets pushed around/boxed out by his man and loses 3 feet of ground under the basket. layup is good regardless. I think he has to contest the layup and force the ball handler to pass it under the basket.
- 11:11 O: receives the ball on a great cut into the low paint. gets fouled. Misses FT.
- 10:22 D: decent drop defense - deters two potential drives, forcing a kick to JW's man at the top of the arc, who fakes, then hits an open 3pter. Wiseman wasn't close to contesting, though that was probably more a rotation failure than a JW failure.
- 10:06 O: offensive turnover. unclear, but I think JW committed a 3 second violation.
- 9:51 - beautiful block. necessitated by a failed box-out from the Dubs
- 9:40 another offensive 3 second violation by JW
- 9:21 defense the screen switch layup to the basket, forcing a kick.
- 9:16 rotates as the help defender, but a floater goes over his head. Could he have rotated more aggressively?
- 9:00 O: nice rebound over several ACC players for an easy outback.
- 8:40 doesn't drop too deep on screens at the wing - deters any potential drive.
- 8:35 UGLY ally-pop miss
Out of game - minutes restriction.
TLDR: Much much better than before. Only got beat twice on the screen-switch drop defense that he got beat on a million times in the first half. Defended it well multiple times. Still looks lost a bit on offense sometimes when off-ball (2 3 second violations - and some other plays where he either just stood around, not taking advantage of opportunities or seemed to run around without purpsose). That should go away as he learns the system, but he does put good effort into off-ball screens and you can tell it's clearly a part of his game he's working on - that should help him integrate into the big league club. Slow to react when he has the rock on offense - he seems to need a moment to survey the landscape - figure out where defenders are, but when he does attack - it's beautiful. On-ball offense, he reminds me of early season Kuminga - we would scream at him to drive, and JFK would either pass it or brick a long jumper (Of course, now when he shoots a 3pter, it's money). However, when JFK did drive, it was a thing of beauty. JW doesn't dunk as much, but he has a beautiful 2-6 ft floater that was absolutely money in the second half.
This was brilliant. Thanks!
From non-basketball maven…..Compared to last season, he is consistently trying to set screens. He consistently runs to defend the basket. He works to block out under the basket. He has improved his hook shots. He was often open and teammates missed him. He tried to receive a bunch of poor passes. And he seems much more aware where he puts his feet and arms. Last year it seemed like he was all over the place. This year it seems like he knows where he wants to go.
Thanks for all this! I missed this game, saw a good bit of the previous two SCW games with Wiseman. Not that it justifies JW's shortcomings but the SCW games I've seen recently on TV (not just the JW games) were pretty hard to watch, some really bad basketball. I don't imagine that helps him much.
Curious to know whatever the bet is that Steph and Dray must have on the Mich St. vs Davidson in first round of the tournament.
Why cant wiseman develop a KAT like post game in which hes not even the main focus on offense? If draymond is handling the ball, eiseman sets a screen on the wing for curry they absolutely can not switch that anymore or they will be punished inside, Wiseman's potential is that he can literally take away the one thing that gives the warriors offense trouble, which is switching
If I squint, I do think Wiseman's current tendencies seem KAT-like, but obviously the actual ability is nowhere near KAT.
Otherwise, I think it's clear we're just not gonna see how capable Wiseman is as a role-player in the G-League. SCW looks barely capable of running basic PnR, much less letting Wiseman experiment running post splits and stuff.
If he's going to continue playing with SCW, I feel like its best to generally ignore the offense outside of the very general stuff like pushing the pace / running in transition and using his physicality instead of settling for jumpers.
Say what you will about KAT, he is a really, really good offensive player with fantastic touch. While it would be great to just add even just KAT's post up game, it's not so easy to implement.
I needed a refresher after watching the SCW game.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CbDjo8WA_RP/?utm_medium=copy_link
Funny because he looked out of sorts with SCW himself. Hence I am not worried about Wiseman. Just put him in with the big boys.
Lol
I'm sold on wiseman, all the complaints on him are stuff that will get ironed out with experience, the touch he is showing and some of these post moves with such little experience shows just how much potential he has
I’ve been a Wiseman defender/apologist, but his troubles hanging on to rebounds and balls thrown to him are a concern. It looks like he’s regressed. I know it’s only his 3rd game, but working on his hand-eye coordination with drills seems like the one skill he could have done during most of the time while he was rehabbing
Honestly the passing in g league is so bad the passes were inaccurate and I'm sure he doesn't even know if they are going to throw them or not
The passing is really bad. Also I didn't see this game but on Sunday several times his teammates got in his way on rebounds instead of helping. They don't know how to play together.
That’s because they’re all trying to figure out how they’re going to make it to the big leagues and want to stat chase.
Goofus, I think his conditioning contributed to those TOs and blown lobs. He's obviously gassed after 3, 4 mins.
Game speed might have been an issue
Hey Abbadon I thought Of you earlier because I’m watching this game on ESPN Plus here in Columbia Mo and there was this local ad that came on for Rottler Pest Solutions and their opening line was “With global climate change, we are starting to see pest issues year round”. Man about the only people that believe in global
Climate change around these parts are people that live within a couple
Miles radius of Mizzou
Colombia, like St Louis, is a bubble for sure…
Is Wiseman on a minutes limit? Is that why he's not in the closing lineup?
Yes, 20 mins.
Yes 20 min
It was 20 minutes last game, I believe. Not sure here, but seemed like it.
21:13, so slowly moving him up. But yah, that explains it.
Lol, that announcer, for him it's a close game up 18 with 2 mins to go because the Dubs can shoot 3
In other news Steph passed Antawn Jamison and Tom Chambers on the all-time scoring list last game to vault into 47th. He’s 346 points behind Joe Johnson, so would need to average 24.7 ppg over the last 14 to pass him.
easy for steph
assuming he plays all of the game. Dubs have a lot of B2Bs to end the season
I wonder who sold the city of Ontario on the idea of having an nba sized arena. I drive by that arena on the way in and out of California when im out in Texas and I’ve always thought “Why is there a big ass arena in the outskirts of the Inland Empire?”
I'd love to see Wiseman try to do actual Warriors basketball things like off-ball screens and split cuts, but it appears this SCW squad is incapable of running GSW offense.
Ugh watching this Santa Cruz game: I would hate to be a big man in that league.
Wiseman plays with energy and he’s tall. Nate Duncan said the most brutal analysis on his podcast: Wiseman’s current NBA skillset is finishing uncontested dunks.
Wiseman still thinks he’s Durant and turns post moves that should lead to dunks and layups into fadeaways.
Wiseman still plays D like a HS center giving up wide open 3’s and contesting shots he can’t alter and removing himself from the defensive rebounding position. Duncan’s analysis seems a bit harsh, but There’s zero chance he’s ready to be a playoff positive this year. Bob please go do your job and keep the brain trust off of Kerr’s back. Maybe don’t even put him on the playoff roster.
Yah, we struggle to see the Dubs B-squad do actual Warriors basketball things. I can't imagine the SCW do any better.
Watching Wiseman play this game was so frustrating since he had SO many unforced errors (two blown lobs) and legit 5 times where he failed to catch/secure the ball and then a traveling call/three second in paint
Like if it wasnt for all these mistakes his game wouldn't have been that bad at all with 15 points/9 rebounds/3 blocks in 21 minutes.
He honestly needs minutes/reps to cut out all these stupid mistakes + constant work/focus on his butterfinger hands and he would be quite the positive prospect even with his defensive miscues.
Defensively he was much better in terms of pick/roll defense and rim protection helping from the weakside. Still not that great but better than before and far more palatable for the NBA.
> Defensively he was much better in terms of pick/roll defense
They seemed to be playing a pretty extreme drop coverage with him, I'm not sure how much that would really translate to the NBA.
He needs reps in other coverages imo, I disagree with people saying he should be done with the G-League because I think he could use all the G-League reps he can get.
I'm more focused on how good his touch around the rim looked, he had some makes that wowed me, all those mistakes will clean up when the game slows down for him