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So let's see here:

Nets get: James Harden, 2024 2nd round draft pick

Rockets get: Victor Oladipo, Dante Exum, and Rodions Kurucs; Nets 2022, 2024, and 2026 1st round draft picks; pick swaps in 2021, 2023, 2025, and 2027; Cavaliers 2022 1st round draft pick

Pacers get: Caris LeVert

Cavaliers get: Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince

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Rockets win this trade by a mile.

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Guess that is another explanation for Oladipo being held out of last night's game...

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I don’t think he’s played any back-to-backs

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As talented as the trio of Kyrie, Harden and KD is I don't think they'll ever play to their potential. All 3 of them has their own sideshow and it'll only be a matter of time until another Draymond/KD situation happens again. KD will soon realize not every super team has the chillest of chill stars like Klay and Steph

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Wait, what's going on? Why is Harden being traded? Is it because of a big drama going on with Harden and other teammates or the Rockets organization or something?

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Fertita stormed the lockerroom and lectured them after they narrowly lost to the Warriors superteam yr 2 and told them he’d teach them how to win. Then he promptly ducked the tax instead of paying Iguodala or using the exception that off season and has never used all their resources to actually try to win. This led to a toxic work environment that led to all respected members of the organization to flee.

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Harden for whatever reason gave up on Houston over the brief offseason. Everything that has happened since then were just tactics to get out

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Jan 13, 2021Liked by punk basketball

Scheduling note: the Warriors have had two days between games twice so far this season; the first time two days before Christmas (on the road) and the second time two days before New Years Day (returning from the road trip). Otherwise, they've had one day between games, except for the back to back on the 3rd and 4th. The next two day break will be between @Phoenix and @Los Angeles on the 16th and 17th, and following that between Boston and Detroit on the 31st of January and 1st of February. They have three back-to-backs upcoming before that last "break" of two days. Looking forward, the pattern seems similar.

This is a >really< compressed schedule. I imagine it's similar for all teams and is a result of the pandemic, although I haven't checked any other schedules. There are a lot of obvious impacts from this, but it's worth noting that it leaves almost no time in the schedule for practice and that isn't going to let up any time soon. This is really unfortunate for a largely new team like the Warriors are, and means they have to work out stuff on the fly while getting in any rest and recovery and cardio/weight/shooting work, as well as any gameplanning for specific opponents they can somehow squeeze in. And let's not forget travel between cities for road games...

Not just with regards to Covid, but in general player well-being, this season is going to be an absolute war of attrition.

Bottom line, this all means means we're going to see the team is slower to evolve than we might otherwise expect. It's just the way things are going to go this year given the very compressed schedule.

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I agree and have been pondering this for weeks, especially as it relates to Wiseman (and his missed training camp and preseason). Glad someone said it.

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Why is Wiggins +/- consistently lower? Aside from the lack of patience on offense he seems to be playing really well on both sides of the court and the bench seems to be killing it with Paschall out there. Normally it pops why a seemingly good player has a bad +\-, but I’m struggling to see it with Wiggins.

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BPM & 538 raptor don't like him either... I agree though, he's been passing the eye test. Weird.

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I'm worried about Wiseman. His FT% is 55% now which means he might not be a good shooter. And that means the bit about his game that excited us in the early games might be an illusion. And he's far too willing to settle for the jump shot. He also has rebounding issues especially when contested. Rebounders are born not made so I think that might be issue throughout his career.

The fouls and the timing on lobs are huge, glaring issues right now but they will probably be fixed with time. But if he's not a stretch 5 and he can't really rebound? Are we sure he'll ever be a top 5 C? And that's giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying he can become a good defender on faith. I would 100% trade him for Haliburton + an asset right now.

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If you are trading Wiseman, you are trading to win *NOW* You don't trade for Haliburton in that case.

So realistically, the the trade you want to ponder is a Wiseman package for Harden...

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I probably agree. But I have the most less controversial opinion of fuck James Harden.

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I think there's a good argument for trading Wiseman but imo you gotta trade him for someone ready to compete for a championship with Curry/Dray/Klay.

I share concerns about his game. Him being 19 is only a possibility that those concerns go away, I think fanbases often treat it as a certainty with their young guys. Howard came into the league a bad FT shooter...and stayed bad. Ezeli came to the Warriors with bad hands...and he continued to have them throughout his career.

But still, it's too early to be definitive about anything, especially because his situation is unprecedented with the lack of college/Summer League/training camp. If Wiseman makes 4 more of those free throws, he's at 70%. His percentage is a big concern and I think mirrors his EYBL percentage, but let's see what it looks like after 100 attempts.

For me the bigger problem is Smailagic and not Wiseman. Having a project big like Wiseman who can contribute some minutes on a roster trying to win now can be justified. Having another project big who is years away from maybe being a bench contributor cannot be. That roster spot could be being filled by a vet center who could perhaps have helped the Warriors to 1-2 more wins as Wiseman learns the game. (But maybe that ends up keeping the Warrior draft pick in the top 20, in which case, light years.)

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Et tu, belilaugh? There is no good argument for trading Wiseman right now.

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The argument would be maximizing Curry's championship window. It doesn't even really have that much to do with Wiseman, it has more to do with his development timeline.

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I'm not sure it would even succeed at that. Take for instance the proposed Haliburton trade. Great, you've definitely increased our odds this year. But I could argue that next year, we'd have better odds with Klay and 1-year veteran Wiseman. Curry is getting older, but he's not that old yet and his skill set should last a while.

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Haliburton is a rookie, that would not be a trade that maximizes Curry's championship window.

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What would be? And if you say something that involves Harden, I'm going to smash things.

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This is KG after his first 40 NBA games, coming straight out of high school.

20 MP / 40% FG / 38% 3PT / 75% FT / 4.1 REB / 1.2 AST / 6.3 PTS

He also has a streak of 20 games in the same season where he shoots 60% from the line. At this point in time, Jerry Stackhouse (2 years in college) looks like the better player.

Wiseman just wrapped up game 11. Way too early to do anything... seriously, has ANY first rounder ever been traded after 11 games?

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Interesting that KG shot so well from 3, but I'm guessing the sample size was tiny. As for the trade, I'm not seriously suggesting it, but harkening back to the prior LGW thread where it was suggested.

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This is the hottest of takes right here.

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Rebounding issues? He's averaging over 11 per 36, which is already very good. I think he clearly shows the potential for elite- in a period during last night's game, he got 5 rebounds in 10 minutes. That is an elite pace of 18 per 36. His upside could be that level more consistently.

If your concern is that he'll never be a top 5 C, then I think you are behaving like a concern troll. He's a freshly born NBA babe. The people who are excited by him, as I am, are mostly excited by the tools that he has and the willingness he has shown to learn. He will be better at the end of this year than he is now, and he will be better at the end of next year than he is at the end of this year. His 3 point shot looks far better than any of us imagined it would. He plays with confidence and is doing things very, very few people in the NBA can do.

Haliburton is a lot more of a finished product and is being utilized as such. We don't need him the way we need future Wiseman. Next year Klay is more valuable to the Dubs than Haliburton.

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I guess my worry is that I don't know if I see the upside of a top 5 center. If he never improves, he's obviously out of the league in 5 years. I will say, I do love what we have seen of his work ethic. And you can't teach size. The 3P% is amazing, but I think it's unsustainable. Just as Kelly ain't a 16% shooter, I think Wiseman got the small sample size variance. If he's truly a good shooter, he should be a good FT shooter. He's already missed 12. We can say he's not a good FT shooter.

As for rebounding, we give up a ton of offensive rebounds. We're 29th in the league. Some of that is pace I grant. Some of that is the Paschall at center lineups. But lineups with Wiseman are consistently below average at ORB% and DRB%.

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I think it's a fair worry about if he can be a top 5 center. Imo it's a blunder if you draft a center in the top 5 and they don't end up top 5 at their position (at minimum). It's like drafting a running back in the first round, it's not just about their skill but also the value of their position. Playmaking is at a premium in the NBA and the draft is the best place to get it for cheap and for the long term. And the league is more perimeter-oriented than ever, a lot of those shot blockers can be pulled out of the paint. But still, Embiid and AD have justified their top 5 draft selections. Can Wiseman (or Ayton)? Remains to be seen.

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This just seems like contradictory blather. If you like his work ethic, then no need to worry about lack of improvement. You think his 3% is unsustainable, yet you think his FT% is predictive. Have you watched his coast-to-coast plays? That is the upside of a top 1 center.

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Just because someone has the work ethic doesn't mean he will succeed. And yes, I do think FT% will stabilize quicker. He's already shot nearly twice as many FTs as 3's. As for his coast to coast, sure they look pretty. But you can't rely on transition offense for your entire game.

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Moving the goalposts- of course work ethic doesn't equal success, but it DOES equal a likelihood of improvement, which is what I actually said. I used the coast to coast as an example of upside, not "entire game."

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No you said "no need to worry about improvement." It follows that if working hard doesn't equal success, it's not solely working hard that means improvement. You do, by definition, then need to worry about it. That's not goalpost moving.

And of course the coast to coasts were great. They are by far the most exciting parts of his game so far. But unless you think he's gonna be Giannis and Euro stepping into dunks 3-4 times a game, they're just flashy transition plays. I think his shooting is infinitely more important.

By no means am I saying he's a lost cause. There is a lot of things to like about him. My point is he's not a slam dunk. There are a few red flags starting to pop up.

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Jan 13, 2021Liked by punk basketball

I agree with Sabriasez. Wiseman's really young. He probably never met someone as big as he is. So, a work in progress. Hands do need to get better, as does rebounding, though.

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Lol his free throws will be fixed and if they're not, bad free throw shooting doesn't 100% correlate to not being a good shooter. Keep in mind he didn't have no training camp, preseason, summer league and only 3 college games, he will learn to rebound

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Learning to rebound is rare. By all means I hope those times where he has snatched some of those boards when he's mad becomes the norm. For the most part though, rebounding is most correlated with prior rebounding. As for FT shooting, I agree. But we don't really have much data, so the FT (and the eye test) are the biggest pieces of evidence. He does look pretty smooth I will grant, but it's an extremely worrying trend in my view.

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You admit that we don't have much data (small sample size) yet you're willing to trade him so we can "win now." We are actually in a playoff position if the season ends tomorrow, which, I mean, it might.

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The answer to both is Steph Curry. We need to win now. If we were willing to fully rebuild, I 'd live with the growing pains and hope Wiseman becomes AD. But he's looking every bit the rookie he is. I would have hugely supported trading down and getting Haliburton in the draft. I know it's an unpopular opinion but I think the first 10 games have reinforced that position.

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I was one of many hoping for that outcome. But the Warriors chose Wiseman and they need to help him improve so they can both maximize winning and trade value. The only concern I see is the hands. Everything else will be fine in time. The offense is still very much a work in progress and centers always suffer the most from Oubre type players making a hash of things, Wiggins also doesn’t have the patience to help a center much either. Give the team a chance, they were better than a very good Indy team for much of that game.

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Have some perspective: We get two first round picks next year, plus Klay. We are in a playoff position now. We have our cake and can eat it too.

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Having two 1st round picks next years is far from certain. We could have two, one or none depending on how MIN and GSW season’s go and ping pong balls land

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Oh I would absolutely take GSW's position over a fair amount of the league. And next year is probably our peak chance at another title unless we find the next Steph level superstar.

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deletedJan 13, 2021Liked by punk basketball
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Sure. Except developing a shot is a skill many never develop even after lots of work. And that's on top of all of the other aspects of his game that he needs to work on. If his jumper isn't better, why do we like Wiseman better than say Ayton, Bagley, or Jaren Jackson Jr?

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Well, he's significantly bigger and taller than all those guys and has the potential to do a lot more, for one. Second, all this concern about Wiseman's shot- you do realize that his jumper is actually one of his biggest strengths so far, right? He hasn't used it a lot, but he's used it well.

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He's got 1 inch and -10 lbs on Ayton. He's got 1 inch and 5 lbs on Bagley. He's got 1 inch and -2 lbs on Jackson. All listed so take with a grain of salt. All shot mid-70s on FT% as rookies.

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Wiseman has 6" wingspan and 8 inches of standing reach over Bagley, 3 inches of standing reach on Ayton and 4 inches of standing reach on Jackson.

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Now that is a fair point. He is longer than those guys. That is some reason for optimism once he figures it out how to utilize it.

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The form looks unassailable to me.

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I don't think bringing the ball above his head and out of his sight is necessarily good form. It is a fluid motion, though.

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Can’t get Caroline out of my mind

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Jan 13, 2021Liked by punk basketball

Correction, 3D, Warriors overall record is 6-5.

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author

ah yeah, thanks! My bad.

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Jan 13, 2021Liked by punk basketball

Something I've noticed is Steph rarely passes to the roll man during a pnr when he's getting trapped. Look at this play, Wiseman is WIDE open.

https://twitter.com/gswchris/status/1349214203278553091?s=20

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Jan 13, 2021Liked by punk basketball

They have to watch film and how to hit wiseman on the rolls, it also might be that wiseman's timing is off on the rolls so curry doesn't trust it yet, he always makes that pass to green

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This was a close one, certainly a game of runs. The Pacers missed some easy ones in the beginning and made some tough ones at the end to seal it, but I don't feel too bad about it overall. Both sides played well, and Indiana sure seems like a quality team this year, especially if they don't have too many growing pains fitting Oladipo back into the rotations. Major respect to Sabonis, Turner, Brogdon, and the Holidays: they earned this one.

Steph: He still finds ways to impact the game when the defenders are all over him, but they definitely did not let him get cooking. It was kind of nostalgic watching him brick his few wide-open shots while making several of the harder ones. His defense was also pretty strong, but he wasn't hot enough down the stretch. B-.

Wiggins: His defense is progressing from good to spectacular. 5 blocks tonight! On offense, I like how he looks for passes on a lot of his drives rather than forcing up contested shots all the time. Is he an all-star? Nah, he's still trying too hard to beat people off the dribble and getting low percentage shots out of it, but the defensive effort continues to be consistent, and that's enough for me. He had the team-low +/- but neither the eye test nor the rest of the box score can fully blame him for that. B+.

Draymond: This game is not the first time I've seen Draymond beat a 3-on-1 fast break, but it's still a good reminder that he just makes those kinds of plays. He also put on a masterclass of how to play the 4-on-3 when teams trap Steph. He should probably stop forcing unnecessary passes to Wiseman under the basket, he had a couple miscommunications with Oubre on defense, but he played some of the sloppiest crunch-time minutes I've seen from him in a while and that was certainly part of the loss. C+.

Oubre: He started off hot but by the 2nd half he was looking down at his feet again and so were his shooting percentages. Sadly, he still hasn't figured out the Steph relocation three either. He was crowding Steph in the corner in Q1. Later, in Q3, he signaled for it, then didn't actually make contact on the screen (Steph made it anyway). His ball pressure and hussle were enormous, and though he had a couple miscommunications with Draymond, I don't think the bad closing run can be laid at his feet this time. B-.

Lee: Like the whole team, he was cold on threes tonight, and the refs weren't about to bail him out by buying his usual flopping. He played hard within the system on both ends, and guys made some shots over him that he couldn't do much about. I get the feeling his poor +/- is at least in part from the lack of Paschall's enormous presence in the second unit. B-.

Wiseman: Some guys, their hands just look sticky. Wiseman isn't one of those guys. The foul trouble problems, I have faith he'll grow out of. The ability to secure rebounds and loose balls without bobbling them, I'm not sure that's something you learn. 4 of 11 on twos is also not a good line for a big. Being outmatched by Sabonis and Turner is not exactly something to be ashamed of, but it shows how far he still has to come. C-.

Bazemore: Not a good game for him tonight. He had some poor turnovers and some poor defense: I saw at least one time he tried to double team but couldn't get around his own teammate to pressure the offense, which led to the Pacers getting an open layup. On offense, he drove into trouble a few times and didn't seem to know what to do from there. C-.

Looney: He had some good possessions defending Sabonis and some where he looked outmatched. But his rebounding and all-position defense were helpful in the minutes he played, and he had the highest +/- of the team for a reason. B.

Wanamaker: Here's some nightmare fuel for you: Fitz's voice repeatedly echoing, "lays it UP and OUT!" He needs to work on his transition offense. He didn't make any glaring errors on the defensive end, so he was what the team probably expected him to be, but nothing more. C+.

Mulder: The three-guard offense alongside Steph and Lee looked very good, but his defensive weaknesses were more visible against the bigger lineups of Indiana. He only made 1/3 on threes this time, but he was in his spot and took the shots without hesitation, which is what he needs to do. B-.

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He also executed the screen off the corner for Steph in rhythm, something Oubre is still struggling mightily with.

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Good wrap up. Looney played very well tonight even though he didn't score much. Oubre had a kind of breakout game from his offensive slump. Let's hope it continues. The main problem is Steph being pressured and no one else taking up the scoring efficiently. Dray is an assist machine but he can't assist these guys in BBIQ. With Curry locked up, we are going to lose many of these contested games. There doesn't seem to be any real chemistry going on beside Dray to Steph. Sure Dray lobs some to Wiseman. If we needed that we should have kept Javale at half the price. This to me shows Wiseman's lack of game. Both Sabonis and Myles destroyed him. OK, he's a rookie but has little understanding of positioning and defense. His size is both a pro and a con. You need skill. Bench is scrappy but they didn't do much to support the game. They need a better bench. All you've got is Looney and DLee making any impact. Baze has no consistency. I still think trying Oubre off the bench might help. He won't start with Klay in the lineup so why not give him the taste of his future, now, if he has one with the Dubs? I like Wiggins but he's playing his own game most of the time. Who is assisting him most?

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Just finished watching the game. Once they were up 10 pts with <2min to go, I thought Curry and Wiggoins will start bombing away 3s. Alas, no! With this roster, not sure what is the antidote for box&1 on Steph. Is there one besides finding a shooter at 2?

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The antidote is players that can shoot mid range and bigs that can score by penetrating the middle. The box leaves the middle open but if you're not a skilled big, you can't take advantage of it. We have no big that can play well against it. I would think Looney has the smarts but he is not exactly an offensive presence. Wiseman is too raw. Paschall and Wiggins have been attacking the middle. We missed Paschall tonight.

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*they = pacers

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I refuse to believe that Steph shooting it a couple steps in from halfcourt like Dame would be a bad shot.

Also, what's up with Oubre always looking down before shooting a 3. Who cares if you're on the line!!

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They’ve got to work on plays to get Steph open

If Wiseman figures things out, he should provide Steph and Dray with 10 assists per night

I liked the energy on D - until the 4th

Waiting for Wiggins to revert to mean - and praying this is just the new mean

Trying to remember this year is about setting up next year. Any win is just a bonus.

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Agreed. Where did the triple screens from the last game go? I saw almost none of them. I felt like a major part of the bad fourth quarter was that Draymond didn't seem as interested last night in conducting the offense and making everyone run those sets. There are times I feel like he and Kerr try intermittent effort on pushing the set offense to try to get the team to run it on their own. Kerr seemed pretty disengaged last night to me too. Wiggins was great, and I actually don't expect him to regress, as most of his improvement is defensive positioning and good coaching putting him where he can succeed, but the lack of patience on offense resulted in an awful lot of Wiggins (and others) iso late in the game. KD would have loved it. Also, the Oubre' camping in Steph's shooting corner thing has got to stop. He apparently has some sort of superstition about not running cross-court under the backboard.

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Daydreaming (well at this time it would just be dreaming) about Klay coming back next year. Ah the league will be in trouble again.

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Positives from the early season:

-Wiggins turning into a nice 2 way player

-Solid bench unit especially with Paschall

Things that still needs to be worked on:

-Execution, especially in the 2nd half

-Can we run a damn fast break properly please? If it's not a wide open dunk I'm holding my breath every time

Things that would be nice to see:

-How about trying a lineup of Steph/Mulder/Lee/Wiggins/Draymond when opponents play the box?

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If I'm not mistaken, the team ran that exact lineup in the 4th quarter and had almost back-to-back possessions that were like: high Steph+Dray PnR, trap Steph, Dray rolls, pass to the open shooter, corner 3, swish. (Lee and Mulder each got one.) But they kind of got wrecked on defense.

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Fitz insisting that Aaron Holiday and Myles Turner were bad shooters getting super lucky so he could discredit the Pacers while pretending to compliment them was extremely weird.

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Just like how teams were scorching us from deep before and he ignored that we were leaving shooters wide open

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I'll trade Azubuike and Bob for Jim Barnett any day. Jim can just do 2 voices and still offer more entertainment than both of those guys.

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Yep, whining like the hoops gods have it in for us whenever a 30% 3 pt shooter happens to hit a couple from three is a one of Fitz’s hearty perennials. Variance, Boob. Of course, when Kelly Oubre comes out and drains three early threes for us, that’s just fair and square.

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I like it better when they complement guys for having a hot night, but Fitz is really bad about bitching and moaning with the victim complex as if guys having random hot games only happens against us. Have some respect, dude!

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I've completely stopped listening to them. I usually listen to the opponents broadcasters or turn the sound off. Makes you appreciate Webber, Miller, and the national broadcasters a whole lot more.

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And honestly, Holiday shot 39% from three last season (36% for his career) and Turner is 35% for his career. "Whining" is the perfect word, the last thing I want to listen to is whining.

The day Curry leaves the Warriors will be sad for many reasons, but one of them is that fewer national TV games means more local broadcasts I'll have to listen to.

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He always does this. I guess in his mind it makes getting outplayed better? It is indeed extremely weird.

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