I just want to say, y’all are massively undervaluing Poole who averaged 24.6 points, 4.6 assists and 3.1 rebounds with a 58 TS% in 43 games as a starter this season. With that being said, even if I prefer trading Klay, here are some interesting options for trading Poole!
Buddy Heild/Aeron Nesmith for Poole: The combo of Heild/Nesmith help us retain most of Poole’s offensive punch while giving us spacing and Nesmith played mostly PF last year despite his smaller size while playing very solid defense. The Pacers would go for it since it would net them a 24 peg scorer alongside Haliburton whose size/defense can help cover Poole’s shortcomings. While the Pacers have some interesting guard options already in Benedict and Nembhart, Benedict can play at SF and Nembhart can simply come off the bench. None of these concerns are particularly troublesome.
Grimes/Mitchell Robinson for Poole: Grimes/Robinson are excellent fits in terms of what we are looking for providing us with tough gritty defense. Grimes provides a bit more spacing while Mitchell includes shot blocking and rebounding. We won’t have as much of an offensive punch but our defense will be much better. They get a tremendous offensive duo in Brunson/Poole at the guard position and they don't have to worry so much regarding the loss of size since Barrett/Randle/Hartenstein would still be a very large backcourt.
I think trading Poole *at all* is an overreaction. Poole had a bad year. BFD.
The list of players who have had bad years is long and hallowed. He was a 28 pick ... it's not like he was supposed to be a superstar. We need him to be an adequate backup PG, no more.
Trading him now is trading him at his lowest value. I think he's going to be better next year. Will he be $27 mil a year good? No, but Klay at $43 mil a year (gulp) is a worse value proposition.
Play it out. We're not going to get anything like what we could get from Poole in a trade. Hope he gets better. If he doesn't, you can always trade him at the trade deadline for something.
I don't disagree that trading Poole is an overreaction, I would rather maintain him and reevaluate at the trade deadline.
I preferably want to trade Klay since he has a bigger contract, he's older, and his on court impact is much more minimized compared to past performance YET his skillset is still valuable. I think we can grab more bang for the buck with Klay and I'd rather trade for a more well balanced roster a year to early than a year too late. Not to mention, we have Poole/Moody so there won't be a HUGE dropoff in terms of production.
I think Poole is capable of significantly improving his defense and learning better decision making. The only reason I'd want to trade him is if Draymond is opting in/re-signing, and JP is not comfortable with that. We don't want a repeat of the chemistry issues we had this past season.
Being capable of significant defensive improvement and better decision making is one thing, being interested and dedicated to doing so is quite another. For a number of years I doubted that Steph would become a capable defender due to his size, and his decisions with the ball sometimes made me crazy. But I never doubted his instincts, effort level and commitment to be better there. He has since transformed his body with the strength to hold his own at that end. This is the blueprint for Poole, and he certainly has the potential to achieve similar results. People have lauded his work ethic, but I suspect that is mostly on his offensive bag. I'm just not convinced that he has the temperament or bbiq get there on D. And it's not like this is a new issue for him. I can't imagine that coaches haven't already tried everything to get Poole to focus on this and It just drives me nuts that the guy still won't even get into a proper stance.
I say he should be moved now whether Dray is here or not. I think Steph and Kerr have had enough of him as well. "Waiting and seeing" until the trade deadline could possibly make his value even less while continuing to create a pox on the team's chemistry. I think his numbers as a starter last season will attract several teams that currently have a need for his skillset. Both Poole and the club would be better served by a fresh start.
I hear you. I admit I waffle a lot about Poole. Some games he comes in and is a big contributor to winning. Then I want to keep him. Other games, bad D and bad decision-making are killers. Then I want to trade him. Right now it's the off season (for us), and he hasn't pissed me off since the Lakers series, so I'm feeling better about him. If you had asked me a couple of weeks ago I might have said something different. I'm glad it's not my decision to make!
HQ, after reading through the current crop of comments it makes me realise how crazy the predicament of the new GM apparent is! What would be some interview questions (serious or not!) you would ask them if you were the Dubs recruiting manager?
Without a major trade going down for the Dubs, we are shit out of luck to get someone in the draft that can help us win another ring in the here and now. Both Kuminga and Moody are in a better position to crack the rotation and add something to the team. I also don't expect a repeat of Poole's game next season. I repeat, the best scenario for the Dubs is to package the pick in a trade. So many good possibilities for the Dubs if they open themselves to a trade scenario.
What would be a good specific player (and trade)? Everyone wants a win-now contributor, but no one has named a specific trade that I can poll. It's much harder than it seems.
Even if this trade is impossible, I appreciate the specific trade suggestion. This advances the conversation so much more than magically vague trade concepts.
VanVleet has a player option, like Draymond. They can't trade him unless he opts in and accepts a trade. Why would he do that when he can be UFA and sign for a better deal? If he opts out and they sign him to a new deal, we can't trade for him because that hard caps us, and we can't get under the cap. So VanVleet is not in our future this coming season.
You are probably right, and I have doubts he'd be ok with being Steph's backup. I wasn't following the Raptors too closely this past season, but I read somewhere that he regressed a bit and was frustrated with losing. Maybe there is chance that the opportunity get another ring with the Warriors could tempt him to opt in? I don't know if any other realistic title contenders are offering a big new contract to a 6 foot 1 guard this offseason.
FVV's 3-point shooting was definitely down but I think most teams would look at his career and consider that an anomaly. His scoring dropped from 20.3 to 19.3/gm, but his assist average was his career best, FT % career best (90%), steals were approx. the same as the previous three seasons (1.8). I bet he tests the FA market and gets a very good contract unless the Raptors cough up serious $.
I've listed several trades that could be done but they involve Poole and Draymond. The pick would just be a sweetener. Without the willingness of the Dubs to entertain trading one of the sacred cows, there is no deal that I see.
I've polled many trades involving Poole and none of them have gotten majority support. Everyone likes the idea of a trade and most of Dub Nation thinks any actual trade idea is unsupportable.
I don't see management trading Draymond unless they can't agree on a team friendly extension.
Give me a (realistic) trade with Draymond that satisfies fanspo.com trade machine, and I'll poll it.
If they can't agree on an extension, Draymond could opt in (because he thinks he can't get more money on the open market), get traded, and become UFA next summer (unless he signs an extension with his new team). So then the question would be what we can get back for Dray as a one-year rental. That is the only way I could see the Dubs trading Draymond.
What do you mean by realistic? All of my trades have been done with fanspo. The unrealistic seems to be in the minds of fans who oppose real change and think Draymond is untouchable so I'm not really inclined towards polling any of my ideas. You can scroll through my posts and see if there is anything that meets your eye regarding trades.
Sorry, I'm not going through thousands of comments, Substack does not have good search.
If you don't want ideas polled because they are too revolutionary for the masses then I won't. I'm a little suspicious of the existence and practicality of these perfect trades that somehow no one else in the world can appreciate.
Something that just dawned on me is that Denver had a young guy who was unhappy with his role and making negative waves in the locker room in Bones Hyland and the Nuggets traded him at the first opportunity for basically nothing.
That's a really good (and fair) rebuild trade for the Nets. What if Tsai doesn't want a rebuild? Brooklyn could've been a dumpster fire after losing KD and Kyrie, but they have a young, foundational (although not all-world superstar) piece in Bridges. Maybe they'd want to get Dame instead, although they'd have to give up Claxton.
How about:
Nets: Dame, Nurkic
Blazers: Claxton, Poole, Dorian Finney-Smith (or Joe Harris maybe), picks
Warriors: Dinwiddie, Mills, Day'Ron Sharpe (I don't think we could get Claxton without taking on you-know-who)
I obviously value Claxton higher than a lot of people (I think he's a future DPOY finalist, although he can't shoot FT's, and isn't great on offense), but he'd be the centerpiece. The Nets would be sacrificing a lot of defense for offense, so I'm not sure they would want to do this trade. I guess the Warriors could take Nurkic instead of Sharpe and Dinwiddie, maybe (although I'd prefer it the other way personally).
Another interesting thing about BKLN is that they had a young up-and-coming team and then broke it up to sign KD and Kyrie. Now they have, as you say, a young foundational piece in Bridges plus some nice support pieces (Dinwiddie, Claxton, Cam Johnson). Their 45-37 record is better than one might expect considering all the problems they had this season. So do they want to make a big move for an older established star on a big contract (say, Dame), or do they want to build with solid rotation guys plus promising youngsters and a few key FAs, and grow them together over the next couple of years?
That feels like a real sell-low on Poole, given that Mills is a non-factor and I don't know who Day'Ron Sharpe is.
Sort of a weird haul for the Blazers for Dame - are they going to be competitive right away with those guys? Are they in a short term rebuild? - but definitely interesting.
Probably the Blazers say no first, then the Warriors, and the Nets are a solid yes: they get Dame and don't have to give up Bridges.
For what it's worth, Sharpe is a 21 yr old old-school-style big, 6'11"/265 lb, 2 years in the league. I haven't seen him much as a pro but at North Carolina he was a strong offensive rebounder but a so-so defensive rebounder. Okay shot blocking but nothing special. Gets those big power dunks, but not fast on his feet. Has jump hooks, pivots, and over the shoulder jumpers in his repertoire but wasn't much of a shooter, couldn't shoot a lick from distance until this past season, when he shot the 3 well in a handful of attempts (very small sample size). Pretty good ball handler for a big. So yeah, old school, not a modern big. He played about 11-12 minutes/gm in the NBA so far. So if we picked him up, it would be to back up Looney.
What I would like to happen (ideally): Keep the band together, add a rim protector somehow, profit.
What is probably going to happen: Poole traded, whether it's in a Wiggins-type trade, a not-so--beneficial salary dump, or possibly even as a third (or fourth) team in an insane, league-changing trade. (Harden to PHX? Dame to Miami? Who knows?). I think (hope?) that Dray and Klay will stay.
Hmmm... a Wiggins-type trade... who can we convince our old trading buddies the Wolves to give us for Poole and the 19th pick that's worth way more than they ought to pay?
Well, Portland has never had the right guys around him when he was the best player on a team, and we have zero data about how good a team would be with him as the second best player, so ...
But his defense is pretty dame bad — a good bit worse than Klay is now, as bad as Poole. We need to improve our defense, even more so if we are losing DDV. And for that we're unloading JK and Moody? Hell no.
Poole, JK, Moody, and Rollins (need him or PBJ in there because the CBA had to also pile on the 110% rule) would be better for us, but Portland wouldn't do that, and personally, I'd rather go for a big man and/or a defensive stopper if we trade the youth movement.
It's probably (definitely?) bad GM'ing, but if we break up the Splash Brothers, I'd want it to be for a much younger all-star. I'd love for Klay to be a Warrior for life, even if his contract becomes a bit much.
No one is giving up a much younger all star for Klay. His contract is prohibitive and his game won't revolve around Curry any longer. Thank Lacob for his over emotional financial commitment.
Big NO for me, but if we were gonna do it, we’d need to (a) hold onto at least one of Moses and Jon; and (b) send off Poole in a second deal, for a big, wing, or just salary relief.
From the perspective of PDX: getting off Dame’s crazy contract for Klay’s expiring, and building around Scoot and Shaedon could have some appeal.
I would be pretty tempted if I was Portland. The idea of Scoot/Simons/JK/Moody/Shaedon and whatever else they get from the draft would be pretty interesting.
It's easy to criticize trades and hard to come up with them. I respect the attempt.
That said, I don't like the idea of trading for Lillard. Too small of a backcourt. It would work in the regular season but I think it'd fall apart in the playoffs like Cleveland did.
I'm probably the closest to saying yes of any of your replies, but the fit is just too rough when you're getting rid of a Splash Bro, and going all-in at the same time. I do think Steph and Dame can fit in sort of a CP3-Harden type way where you always have one on court at any given time, but ultimately I can't do it. I'm too sentimental.
That's the point, right - the Warriors always have an insane offensive force on the floor, they can stop pretending that the two timeline thing is going to work, and they can move off of Klay's huge contract. I understand why it's a little stupid, but if you really want to try to win another championship, you might have to blow things up a bit.
Well, you wouldn't be making this trade to have a functional team 4 years from now. You'd be doing it to win one or two more championships and then hit rock bottom.
Yeah I looked at the Pacer roster, unless they think Isaiah Jackson is the future and they need to clear out a starting spot for him, it doesn't look likely.
No on Dame, and no on giving away JK and Moody. The only upside is that it is better than the hilariously bad Ben Simmons trade a couple of years ago (Ben Simmons for Poole, Wiseman, #7 and 14 2021 picks, and two future 1sts).
Depends on Simmons' physical health (serious back problems) and mental health. If he's good to go both ways, and if we don't need him to score, yeah, he could fill Dray's role in many ways. He doesn't seem like a leader, he's not dynamic, and he lacks aggressiveness on the court, which concerns me. Then again, Draymond's leadership has been a double-edged sword so there's that. I can't see Simmons punching a teammate or constantly getting T'd up for mouthing off to refs. And Simmons is younger, 26. But he kinda sucked this past season, his scoring was down by half. I dunno, it felt like he was on his way out of the league but he has a ton of talent.
"In the 22 games Kuminga played while Wiggins was out, he averaged 13.4 points on 56.3 percent shooting from the field and 44.4 percent from downtown while adding 4.3 rebounds and 2.0 assists in 24.1 minutes played."
We really need to give this guy more minutes/expanded role this season in order for him to truly develop into the Star he very well could be.
I'm late to the draft discussion, and it's not something I usually pay much attention to. Is there anything approaching DNHQ consensus? Top three faves? There's a lot to wade through.
I'm exactly like that person who comes in in the fourth quarter when you're watching a tight game and goes "Who's winning? Is this basketball? Oh look at number 6 on the yellow team, is that Lakers? Who's number 6? He's so good!! He keeps making it go in! Oh, good shot, 6! He shoved it right in the basket! Is the other team trying to stop him?"
Main thing with Lively is he seems like a very fluid mover. Economical in the way he moves and pairs that with good defensive instincts (or schooling). So whether that is in the pick n roll or protecting the rim he just gets to the right spot pretty quickly and has really good length when he's there. On offense he can pass a bit which indicates a good feel for the game. He seems to have almost no scoring instincts so there's a ceiling there. Kind of like a bigger, rawer version of what Evan Mobley is defensively, with a lot less offensive upside. That's pretty interesting.
Wiseman was a little overrated as a prospect, IMO. He's got an incredible frame, and is also an incredible run jump athlete. But it's very straight line. He didn't (IMO) ever project to be able to switch onto perimeter guys very well. Not as fluid as Lively, or even like a young Embiid.
But the upside was the frame, the athleticism, and the fact he had a little jumper to pair with all that. I think the 3P was more theoretical then demonstrated, but there's a lot to say for a guy with Deandre Jordan size/athleticism who can hit some shots in the midrange as well.
I think he'd look a lot more usable on defense but realistically is probably more of a liability on O.
That in general is probably more playable for a playoff team. And it's the type of growth curve where by season two with some body work and NBA experience you could realistically expect he could be a solid plus on D and at least learned simple enough stuff as a rim runner and screener to be functional on O. Now you've got yourself a real player with some upside.
So for a playoff team, yes he's probably more NBA ready. Because the defensive piece for bigs is more important and you're not just leaking points with him out there. That said, it's where everything is a bit unfair for Wiseman in hindsight. He was not NBA ready but there's outcomes where he could have had a big 2nd year jump as well if he'd been healthy.
Well, I don't know diddly about evaluating players, so take all this with a truckload of salt, but:
1. I think Lively moves better laterally.
2. He seems to be able to read plays well enough to get into position to challenge at the rim. Wiseman was usually a beat late.
3. He seems committed to defense. Wiseman's main tools were on the offensive end.
4. As ForeverFoyled says, he actually has tape! He was in college long enough to do a few things, so a little less of a 'black box' to evaluate.
5. Lively's offensive game looks pretty bad, but he's only 19. He might be able to get that to a positive. Also, I think it's a little easier to hide a bad offensive player than a bad defensive player.
Edit: No one is thinking he would be a major contributor on the Dubs next year should we get him. So, he's a project, like Wiseman. I am fine with that, personally.
Also also, Lively can catch the ball. Frankly I don't know if we've seen Wiseman finish a lob from an angle like this, perhaps we have and I just forgot though:
Also also also I think Lively gets off the ground a lot quicker than Wiseman does, which might be why Wiseman isn't as good of a rim protector/lob catcher as his empty gym athleticism suggests he should be.
I dunno, frankly I think there is a lot differentiating them. Wiseman's advantages (ballhandling, hook shot, jumper) don't seem to be good enough where they are actually advantages instead of disadvantages (is being more willing to shoot jumpers a good thing if you can't make them?). I will say though that Lively seems like he needs to be willing to set harder screens just like Wiseman does.
That said, I think of Lively as more of a 7 foot version of Nic Claxton. If most things go wrong, sure, WCS I suppose. If most things go right, a 7 foot version of Rob Williams (and pre-injury he was getting some DPOY buzz). I think the hit rate on 7 footers who can move and pass is fairly high, despite Lively's clear offensive shortcomings.
I haven't watched Lively, but I'm guessing: be played more than 3 college games against bad teams, and he isn't being picked with the #2 pick. If you could pick Wiseman again at #19 that still seems like a good idea.
I want to say the ringer or the athletic did a re-draft of 2020 and they didn’t have Wiseman in their top 20 but to be fair, that draft was pretty good after the top 10 went
Him becoming a high 30s 3pt shooter from all over the court is much more.imporant then his rebounding, then Wiggins can slide to the 4 and help with rebounding
Even Ben Simmons can look like the future GOAT in his offseason videos. It is nice to be able to keep up with JK's journey as he's trying to fine-tune his shot though.
>>Actually if he really wanted to make Kerr happy he'd post for two months footage of him rebounding.
I volunteer to help with this video by shooting for him, as I am guaranteed to almost never make a shot creating plenty of opportunities for rebounds ...
Apparently Whitehead had a second foot surgery, will be ready for training camp but that's not a good start.
Of course, Ryan Rollins had a stress fracture last summer in his foot and then had a Jones fracture in the same foot in February that required surgery so that's not a good start either. Do we have any idea if he will be cleared for Summer League (although perhaps he is traded before then)?
Would love Bufkin to fall to us. Glad you’ll scout him. Creative 3-level scorer who can guard? Sign me up. Only concerns: doesn’t have elite athleticism, measurables (height, wingspan), and recency bias (best games were last 8 when Jett Howard was injured). We’ve drafted plenty of wings recently- Kuminga, Moody, PBJ - would be nice to stock up on guards. Rollins didn’t pop as hoped, though haven’t given up on him.
It is, I think intentionally, a bit over the top, but maybe not. Dude is awesome.
"Even in peak form Jokić’s machinations on the court seem somehow improbable. The NBA’s contemporary greats all have a signature style of movement. LeBron James thunders, James Harden ambles, Steph Curry bounces, Kevin Durant glides, Ben Simmons sits. Jokic happens – awkwardly, implausibly, and, it sometimes seems, unintentionally, but with a kind of inevitability. At times his limbs seem to get ahead of him like baseball bats spilling from a bag; at others there’s a kind of patterned tranquility about his movements that recalls stop motion animation. Many of his shots are taken off balance, with a single hand, from the waist, above the head, or in a position that suggests that Jokić is about to hit the deck.
He definitely does not strike a pretty form. He comes off looking awkward and clumsy, as if he's just playing in the park. But it works! His shots go in. His passes are on point. He's in perfect position to get the rebounds. And that's the beauty of Jokic.
I definitely think Poole will return next year with a vengeance and be a MUCH improved player. He's such a hard worker and if he can get his 3 pt shooting to being reflective of his FT% than his entire game would open up.
Defensively, he'll always be bad but hopefully he can return to our Championship year level defense where he performed much better.
I just want to say, y’all are massively undervaluing Poole who averaged 24.6 points, 4.6 assists and 3.1 rebounds with a 58 TS% in 43 games as a starter this season. With that being said, even if I prefer trading Klay, here are some interesting options for trading Poole!
Buddy Heild/Aeron Nesmith for Poole: The combo of Heild/Nesmith help us retain most of Poole’s offensive punch while giving us spacing and Nesmith played mostly PF last year despite his smaller size while playing very solid defense. The Pacers would go for it since it would net them a 24 peg scorer alongside Haliburton whose size/defense can help cover Poole’s shortcomings. While the Pacers have some interesting guard options already in Benedict and Nembhart, Benedict can play at SF and Nembhart can simply come off the bench. None of these concerns are particularly troublesome.
Grimes/Mitchell Robinson for Poole: Grimes/Robinson are excellent fits in terms of what we are looking for providing us with tough gritty defense. Grimes provides a bit more spacing while Mitchell includes shot blocking and rebounding. We won’t have as much of an offensive punch but our defense will be much better. They get a tremendous offensive duo in Brunson/Poole at the guard position and they don't have to worry so much regarding the loss of size since Barrett/Randle/Hartenstein would still be a very large backcourt.
I think trading Poole *at all* is an overreaction. Poole had a bad year. BFD.
The list of players who have had bad years is long and hallowed. He was a 28 pick ... it's not like he was supposed to be a superstar. We need him to be an adequate backup PG, no more.
Trading him now is trading him at his lowest value. I think he's going to be better next year. Will he be $27 mil a year good? No, but Klay at $43 mil a year (gulp) is a worse value proposition.
Play it out. We're not going to get anything like what we could get from Poole in a trade. Hope he gets better. If he doesn't, you can always trade him at the trade deadline for something.
I don't disagree that trading Poole is an overreaction, I would rather maintain him and reevaluate at the trade deadline.
I preferably want to trade Klay since he has a bigger contract, he's older, and his on court impact is much more minimized compared to past performance YET his skillset is still valuable. I think we can grab more bang for the buck with Klay and I'd rather trade for a more well balanced roster a year to early than a year too late. Not to mention, we have Poole/Moody so there won't be a HUGE dropoff in terms of production.
I think Poole is capable of significantly improving his defense and learning better decision making. The only reason I'd want to trade him is if Draymond is opting in/re-signing, and JP is not comfortable with that. We don't want a repeat of the chemistry issues we had this past season.
Being capable of significant defensive improvement and better decision making is one thing, being interested and dedicated to doing so is quite another. For a number of years I doubted that Steph would become a capable defender due to his size, and his decisions with the ball sometimes made me crazy. But I never doubted his instincts, effort level and commitment to be better there. He has since transformed his body with the strength to hold his own at that end. This is the blueprint for Poole, and he certainly has the potential to achieve similar results. People have lauded his work ethic, but I suspect that is mostly on his offensive bag. I'm just not convinced that he has the temperament or bbiq get there on D. And it's not like this is a new issue for him. I can't imagine that coaches haven't already tried everything to get Poole to focus on this and It just drives me nuts that the guy still won't even get into a proper stance.
I say he should be moved now whether Dray is here or not. I think Steph and Kerr have had enough of him as well. "Waiting and seeing" until the trade deadline could possibly make his value even less while continuing to create a pox on the team's chemistry. I think his numbers as a starter last season will attract several teams that currently have a need for his skillset. Both Poole and the club would be better served by a fresh start.
I hear you. I admit I waffle a lot about Poole. Some games he comes in and is a big contributor to winning. Then I want to keep him. Other games, bad D and bad decision-making are killers. Then I want to trade him. Right now it's the off season (for us), and he hasn't pissed me off since the Lakers series, so I'm feeling better about him. If you had asked me a couple of weeks ago I might have said something different. I'm glad it's not my decision to make!
HQ, after reading through the current crop of comments it makes me realise how crazy the predicament of the new GM apparent is! What would be some interview questions (serious or not!) you would ask them if you were the Dubs recruiting manager?
Without a major trade going down for the Dubs, we are shit out of luck to get someone in the draft that can help us win another ring in the here and now. Both Kuminga and Moody are in a better position to crack the rotation and add something to the team. I also don't expect a repeat of Poole's game next season. I repeat, the best scenario for the Dubs is to package the pick in a trade. So many good possibilities for the Dubs if they open themselves to a trade scenario.
What would be a good specific player (and trade)? Everyone wants a win-now contributor, but no one has named a specific trade that I can poll. It's much harder than it seems.
Ok, I'll bite:
Post July 1st: Player drafted with pick 19, Jordan Poole, and best buddy Andrew Wiggins to Raptors for OG, Fred VanVleet, and Otto Porter Jr.
OG & JK replace Wiggs, FFV runs second unit and starts whenever Steph / Klay sit out, OPJ, once healthy, resumes his previous role with us.
Warriors save ~2M salary + additional luxury tax.
Toronto gets younger, gets rid of OPJ's contract, and gets hometown boy All-Star Wiggins to draw the fans.
JP gets to start.
Even if this trade is impossible, I appreciate the specific trade suggestion. This advances the conversation so much more than magically vague trade concepts.
VanVleet has a player option, like Draymond. They can't trade him unless he opts in and accepts a trade. Why would he do that when he can be UFA and sign for a better deal? If he opts out and they sign him to a new deal, we can't trade for him because that hard caps us, and we can't get under the cap. So VanVleet is not in our future this coming season.
You are probably right, and I have doubts he'd be ok with being Steph's backup. I wasn't following the Raptors too closely this past season, but I read somewhere that he regressed a bit and was frustrated with losing. Maybe there is chance that the opportunity get another ring with the Warriors could tempt him to opt in? I don't know if any other realistic title contenders are offering a big new contract to a 6 foot 1 guard this offseason.
FVV's 3-point shooting was definitely down but I think most teams would look at his career and consider that an anomaly. His scoring dropped from 20.3 to 19.3/gm, but his assist average was his career best, FT % career best (90%), steals were approx. the same as the previous three seasons (1.8). I bet he tests the FA market and gets a very good contract unless the Raptors cough up serious $.
I've listed several trades that could be done but they involve Poole and Draymond. The pick would just be a sweetener. Without the willingness of the Dubs to entertain trading one of the sacred cows, there is no deal that I see.
I've polled many trades involving Poole and none of them have gotten majority support. Everyone likes the idea of a trade and most of Dub Nation thinks any actual trade idea is unsupportable.
I don't see management trading Draymond unless they can't agree on a team friendly extension.
Give me a (realistic) trade with Draymond that satisfies fanspo.com trade machine, and I'll poll it.
If they can't agree on an extension, Draymond could opt in (because he thinks he can't get more money on the open market), get traded, and become UFA next summer (unless he signs an extension with his new team). So then the question would be what we can get back for Dray as a one-year rental. That is the only way I could see the Dubs trading Draymond.
What do you mean by realistic? All of my trades have been done with fanspo. The unrealistic seems to be in the minds of fans who oppose real change and think Draymond is untouchable so I'm not really inclined towards polling any of my ideas. You can scroll through my posts and see if there is anything that meets your eye regarding trades.
Klay for Giannis was “done with Fanspo.”
Sorry, I'm not going through thousands of comments, Substack does not have good search.
If you don't want ideas polled because they are too revolutionary for the masses then I won't. I'm a little suspicious of the existence and practicality of these perfect trades that somehow no one else in the world can appreciate.
lol. I don't blame you.
Something that just dawned on me is that Denver had a young guy who was unhappy with his role and making negative waves in the locker room in Bones Hyland and the Nuggets traded him at the first opportunity for basically nothing.
Was he ‘happy’ with his new team?……meaning, what translated into ‘happy’ for such a young guy with a new team?
Interesting point, especially because bones was perceived as a promising young player and a draft success for them.
Interesting comparison. Their numbers per 36 actually aren't all that far apart. But Hyland "only" makes $2.3M this coming season.
I think the 3rd pick, Anfernie Simons, and another unprotected first for Mikal Bridges makes sense for both teams IF Miller is available
I think the 3rd pick, Shadeon Sharpe, and Anfernie Simons makes sense for both teams IF Scoot is available
Either way if we are talking about a Portland trade, that trade makes the most sense on paper
That's a really good (and fair) rebuild trade for the Nets. What if Tsai doesn't want a rebuild? Brooklyn could've been a dumpster fire after losing KD and Kyrie, but they have a young, foundational (although not all-world superstar) piece in Bridges. Maybe they'd want to get Dame instead, although they'd have to give up Claxton.
How about:
Nets: Dame, Nurkic
Blazers: Claxton, Poole, Dorian Finney-Smith (or Joe Harris maybe), picks
Warriors: Dinwiddie, Mills, Day'Ron Sharpe (I don't think we could get Claxton without taking on you-know-who)
I obviously value Claxton higher than a lot of people (I think he's a future DPOY finalist, although he can't shoot FT's, and isn't great on offense), but he'd be the centerpiece. The Nets would be sacrificing a lot of defense for offense, so I'm not sure they would want to do this trade. I guess the Warriors could take Nurkic instead of Sharpe and Dinwiddie, maybe (although I'd prefer it the other way personally).
Another interesting thing about BKLN is that they had a young up-and-coming team and then broke it up to sign KD and Kyrie. Now they have, as you say, a young foundational piece in Bridges plus some nice support pieces (Dinwiddie, Claxton, Cam Johnson). Their 45-37 record is better than one might expect considering all the problems they had this season. So do they want to make a big move for an older established star on a big contract (say, Dame), or do they want to build with solid rotation guys plus promising youngsters and a few key FAs, and grow them together over the next couple of years?
Dinwiddie is basically this year’s Poole without the upside. Jist keep Poole and hope he gets over his illness.
>...his illness
Defensaversionitis?
That feels like a real sell-low on Poole, given that Mills is a non-factor and I don't know who Day'Ron Sharpe is.
Sort of a weird haul for the Blazers for Dame - are they going to be competitive right away with those guys? Are they in a short term rebuild? - but definitely interesting.
Probably the Blazers say no first, then the Warriors, and the Nets are a solid yes: they get Dame and don't have to give up Bridges.
For what it's worth, Sharpe is a 21 yr old old-school-style big, 6'11"/265 lb, 2 years in the league. I haven't seen him much as a pro but at North Carolina he was a strong offensive rebounder but a so-so defensive rebounder. Okay shot blocking but nothing special. Gets those big power dunks, but not fast on his feet. Has jump hooks, pivots, and over the shoulder jumpers in his repertoire but wasn't much of a shooter, couldn't shoot a lick from distance until this past season, when he shot the 3 well in a handful of attempts (very small sample size). Pretty good ball handler for a big. So yeah, old school, not a modern big. He played about 11-12 minutes/gm in the NBA so far. So if we picked him up, it would be to back up Looney.
Intriguing ...
What I would like to happen (ideally): Keep the band together, add a rim protector somehow, profit.
What is probably going to happen: Poole traded, whether it's in a Wiggins-type trade, a not-so--beneficial salary dump, or possibly even as a third (or fourth) team in an insane, league-changing trade. (Harden to PHX? Dame to Miami? Who knows?). I think (hope?) that Dray and Klay will stay.
Hmmm... a Wiggins-type trade... who can we convince our old trading buddies the Wolves to give us for Poole and the 19th pick that's worth way more than they ought to pay?
OK, how about this trade?
Warriors get: Dame
Blazers get: Klay, JK, Moody, whoever we draft at 19, and probably another 1st in the distant future.
Who says no first?
No trading JK *and* Moody. I'd be marginally OK with trading one (though I'd still hate it) but it had better be for a very! good player.
Dame is a good player, seemingly a great guy, and if he's your first or second best player, you're probably not winning a championship
Well, Portland has never had the right guys around him when he was the best player on a team, and we have zero data about how good a team would be with him as the second best player, so ...
But his defense is pretty dame bad — a good bit worse than Klay is now, as bad as Poole. We need to improve our defense, even more so if we are losing DDV. And for that we're unloading JK and Moody? Hell no.
Or you can just lean in to all offense and enjoy the 145-140 games.
Nope, can't be as bad as Poole's D.
Pretty close though. Bad enough.
Love Dame, but defense not a good fit here.
Poole, JK, Moody, and Rollins (need him or PBJ in there because the CBA had to also pile on the 110% rule) would be better for us, but Portland wouldn't do that, and personally, I'd rather go for a big man and/or a defensive stopper if we trade the youth movement.
It's probably (definitely?) bad GM'ing, but if we break up the Splash Brothers, I'd want it to be for a much younger all-star. I'd love for Klay to be a Warrior for life, even if his contract becomes a bit much.
No one is giving up a much younger all star for Klay. His contract is prohibitive and his game won't revolve around Curry any longer. Thank Lacob for his over emotional financial commitment.
Poole does fit the Portland timeline better, so perhaps if there were some picks thrown in as well.
Big NO for me, but if we were gonna do it, we’d need to (a) hold onto at least one of Moses and Jon; and (b) send off Poole in a second deal, for a big, wing, or just salary relief.
From the perspective of PDX: getting off Dame’s crazy contract for Klay’s expiring, and building around Scoot and Shaedon could have some appeal.
I would be pretty tempted if I was Portland. The idea of Scoot/Simons/JK/Moody/Shaedon and whatever else they get from the draft would be pretty interesting.
In my own defense, I don't think I would make this trade myself - but I would perhaps consider it longer than some of the rest of you would ...
It's easy to criticize trades and hard to come up with them. I respect the attempt.
That said, I don't like the idea of trading for Lillard. Too small of a backcourt. It would work in the regular season but I think it'd fall apart in the playoffs like Cleveland did.
Perhaps, but Steph and Dame (assuming good health) are so much better than what Cleveland has.
Steph is fine as the 1 but Lilard at the 2 is much worse than Mitchell imo
Not what I was saying, and I disagree that Mitchell is better than Lillard.
I was saying defensively as a 2.
I'm probably the closest to saying yes of any of your replies, but the fit is just too rough when you're getting rid of a Splash Bro, and going all-in at the same time. I do think Steph and Dame can fit in sort of a CP3-Harden type way where you always have one on court at any given time, but ultimately I can't do it. I'm too sentimental.
That's the point, right - the Warriors always have an insane offensive force on the floor, they can stop pretending that the two timeline thing is going to work, and they can move off of Klay's huge contract. I understand why it's a little stupid, but if you really want to try to win another championship, you might have to blow things up a bit.
In addition to everything below, Dame's contract is insane. $63 million 4 years from now.
Well, you wouldn't be making this trade to have a functional team 4 years from now. You'd be doing it to win one or two more championships and then hit rock bottom.
It's a great way to see how the Steph-Monta timeline would have played out
Trade Monte Poole for a new Bogut?
Myles Turner?
https://memepedia.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/dont-give-me-hope-meme-3-768x409.jpg
I would love to have Myles Turner but I have the impression that Indiana has decided to keep him, having traded Sabonis.
Yeah I looked at the Pacer roster, unless they think Isaiah Jackson is the future and they need to clear out a starting spot for him, it doesn't look likely.
Eh - mediocre hot take, given how much better Dame is than Monta ever was, but I get it.
Defensively, absolutely. Offensively? It would be like having 2 Curry's. (Still wouldn't do it, and Portland would have better offers).
Steph is a much better defender and ball handler than Dame.
I mean, we'd give up a 2 on every trip down on defense, but as long as Steph / Dame can counter with 3s at a better than 67% clip, I like our chances.
No. He doesn't play defense. He's 32 going on 33.
Right, he fits the Dubs timeline perfectly.
I wouldn't say no. More like "Please god no".
My gastroenterologist, because of my projectile vomiting at the image of the defense of a Steph/Dame backcourt.
You don't like the retro look of Steph/Dame? Reminds you of Steph/Monta? Maybe we could get Mark Jackson to come back and coach?
Don't worry, we'd still have Poole in this scenario too.
Awesome! League-wide scoring goes up another 5%!
Yeah, that's actually the biggest problem.
Ron Adams
No on Dame, and no on giving away JK and Moody. The only upside is that it is better than the hilariously bad Ben Simmons trade a couple of years ago (Ben Simmons for Poole, Wiseman, #7 and 14 2021 picks, and two future 1sts).
Given that Dame was arguably a top 10 guy last season and Ben Simmons is the worst contract in basketball, a fairly big difference.
True, and I don't want Simmons. But at least he can play defense and pass the ball. That is, when he can play at all.
I think Simmons is an interesting player on the right team. The Dubs would be a great fit for him. Could he be a real replacement for Draymond?
Green+Poole for Simmons/Claxton
gotta keep Green and Poole together!
Depends on Simmons' physical health (serious back problems) and mental health. If he's good to go both ways, and if we don't need him to score, yeah, he could fill Dray's role in many ways. He doesn't seem like a leader, he's not dynamic, and he lacks aggressiveness on the court, which concerns me. Then again, Draymond's leadership has been a double-edged sword so there's that. I can't see Simmons punching a teammate or constantly getting T'd up for mouthing off to refs. And Simmons is younger, 26. But he kinda sucked this past season, his scoring was down by half. I dunno, it felt like he was on his way out of the league but he has a ton of talent.
Nets never embraced him. Look at his career numbers. Very impressive. I'd bet a guy like Kerr could work some magic here.
It's not clear he still does those things though ...
Given he can't stay on the court, it's a moot point.
I'm probably the first to say no.
I second that.
I don't want Dame
"In the 22 games Kuminga played while Wiggins was out, he averaged 13.4 points on 56.3 percent shooting from the field and 44.4 percent from downtown while adding 4.3 rebounds and 2.0 assists in 24.1 minutes played."
We really need to give this guy more minutes/expanded role this season in order for him to truly develop into the Star he very well could be.
Yeah but he had four lackluster minutes against Sacramento in the playoffs. He should never be allowed near a basketball again
And while we're at it, trade Rocco! He didn't score a point, make an assist, block a shot, or get a steal — even when Klay left stuff lying around.
Anybody got news on what Kuminga/PBJ are doing in the offseason?
Kuminga getting up shots like SC30!
https://twitter.com/KumingaMuse/status/1666835919947853825
It's the improved handles that get me wet
That J lookin smoooooov
But is he working on his rebounding?
Shots at the end look much quicker!
Plus a step-back, a good floater... nice to see. I hope his FT shooting is improving too!
I'm late to the draft discussion, and it's not something I usually pay much attention to. Is there anything approaching DNHQ consensus? Top three faves? There's a lot to wade through.
I'm exactly like that person who comes in in the fourth quarter when you're watching a tight game and goes "Who's winning? Is this basketball? Oh look at number 6 on the yellow team, is that Lakers? Who's number 6? He's so good!! He keeps making it go in! Oh, good shot, 6! He shoved it right in the basket! Is the other team trying to stop him?"
We all agree we should draft Wembanyama and then trade Poole for Giannis.
Stop trying to make 2 timelines work!
That’s 3 timelines so it’s ok
Best way to make use of Curry's prime. Get it Done, Leavy.
Lively is the clear favorite, Miller and Coulibaly are the others that get the most mentions.
Lively and Coulibaly seem to have risen considerably in recent mock drafts, so it's unlikely either will be around at pick 19.
Worth looking at the highlights of Lively. They are very droolworthy.
Watched some Lively. Help me distinguish Lively draft footage from Wiseman draft footage.
Very different type of prospects.
Main thing with Lively is he seems like a very fluid mover. Economical in the way he moves and pairs that with good defensive instincts (or schooling). So whether that is in the pick n roll or protecting the rim he just gets to the right spot pretty quickly and has really good length when he's there. On offense he can pass a bit which indicates a good feel for the game. He seems to have almost no scoring instincts so there's a ceiling there. Kind of like a bigger, rawer version of what Evan Mobley is defensively, with a lot less offensive upside. That's pretty interesting.
Wiseman was a little overrated as a prospect, IMO. He's got an incredible frame, and is also an incredible run jump athlete. But it's very straight line. He didn't (IMO) ever project to be able to switch onto perimeter guys very well. Not as fluid as Lively, or even like a young Embiid.
But the upside was the frame, the athleticism, and the fact he had a little jumper to pair with all that. I think the 3P was more theoretical then demonstrated, but there's a lot to say for a guy with Deandre Jordan size/athleticism who can hit some shots in the midrange as well.
Would you also say Lively is more NBA ready than Wiseman?
I think he'd look a lot more usable on defense but realistically is probably more of a liability on O.
That in general is probably more playable for a playoff team. And it's the type of growth curve where by season two with some body work and NBA experience you could realistically expect he could be a solid plus on D and at least learned simple enough stuff as a rim runner and screener to be functional on O. Now you've got yourself a real player with some upside.
So for a playoff team, yes he's probably more NBA ready. Because the defensive piece for bigs is more important and you're not just leaking points with him out there. That said, it's where everything is a bit unfair for Wiseman in hindsight. He was not NBA ready but there's outcomes where he could have had a big 2nd year jump as well if he'd been healthy.
Hammy, that’s a very good assessment of both prospects, without relying strictly on hindsight. Salut
Well, I don't know diddly about evaluating players, so take all this with a truckload of salt, but:
1. I think Lively moves better laterally.
2. He seems to be able to read plays well enough to get into position to challenge at the rim. Wiseman was usually a beat late.
3. He seems committed to defense. Wiseman's main tools were on the offensive end.
4. As ForeverFoyled says, he actually has tape! He was in college long enough to do a few things, so a little less of a 'black box' to evaluate.
5. Lively's offensive game looks pretty bad, but he's only 19. He might be able to get that to a positive. Also, I think it's a little easier to hide a bad offensive player than a bad defensive player.
Edit: No one is thinking he would be a major contributor on the Dubs next year should we get him. So, he's a project, like Wiseman. I am fine with that, personally.
Also, the next time Wiseman does this, it'll be the first time:
https://twitter.com/BlueDevilStop/status/1593988353816662016
Also also, Lively can catch the ball. Frankly I don't know if we've seen Wiseman finish a lob from an angle like this, perhaps we have and I just forgot though:
https://twitter.com/BlueDevilStop/status/1617159007956770821
Also also also I think Lively gets off the ground a lot quicker than Wiseman does, which might be why Wiseman isn't as good of a rim protector/lob catcher as his empty gym athleticism suggests he should be.
I dunno, frankly I think there is a lot differentiating them. Wiseman's advantages (ballhandling, hook shot, jumper) don't seem to be good enough where they are actually advantages instead of disadvantages (is being more willing to shoot jumpers a good thing if you can't make them?). I will say though that Lively seems like he needs to be willing to set harder screens just like Wiseman does.
That said, I think of Lively as more of a 7 foot version of Nic Claxton. If most things go wrong, sure, WCS I suppose. If most things go right, a 7 foot version of Rob Williams (and pre-injury he was getting some DPOY buzz). I think the hit rate on 7 footers who can move and pass is fairly high, despite Lively's clear offensive shortcomings.
I think you just put your finger on the main thing I wasn't able to really figure out about why they looked so different.
He really does jump quicker than Wiseman.
I haven't watched Lively, but I'm guessing: be played more than 3 college games against bad teams, and he isn't being picked with the #2 pick. If you could pick Wiseman again at #19 that still seems like a good idea.
Good point. The big disappointment with wiseman is performance relative to draft position. As a low draft pick he’s still a good idea
I want to say the ringer or the athletic did a re-draft of 2020 and they didn’t have Wiseman in their top 20 but to be fair, that draft was pretty good after the top 10 went
https://twitter.com/KumingaMuse/status/1666835919947853825
Some more JK offseason workout footage.
Yeah, I love JK, but I really want to see one with 5 minutes of rebounding drills and then 100 free throws
Him becoming a high 30s 3pt shooter from all over the court is much more.imporant then his rebounding, then Wiggins can slide to the 4 and help with rebounding
Just 15s of him standing on the court talking to Loon and Milo is good enough for me, lol. Would show he’s working with the right people.
I'm not saying anything about your post in particular, but this got me thinking in general about offseason workout videos that circulate.
Have we ever seen one of a guy clanking shots, arguing with his coach, dribbling off his foot, then going on his phone to play some Cat Snack Bar?
I would pay a lot to see that.
You've seen my workout routine!
Even Ben Simmons can look like the future GOAT in his offseason videos. It is nice to be able to keep up with JK's journey as he's trying to fine-tune his shot though.
I liked the type of dribbling exercise. Obviously he won't post the bad efforts but at least he's working on the things that make sense.
Actually if he really wanted to make Kerr happy he'd post for two months footage of him rebounding.
>>Actually if he really wanted to make Kerr happy he'd post for two months footage of him rebounding.
I volunteer to help with this video by shooting for him, as I am guaranteed to almost never make a shot creating plenty of opportunities for rebounds ...
It's okay. Austin Rivers already volunteered. There will be plenty of rebounding opportunities with the way that guy shoots.
Ha ha. Yeah, of course if you could get Austin Rivers to shoot for JK's rebounding video you should. I mean I'm a way better shooter than he is ...
Apparently Whitehead had a second foot surgery, will be ready for training camp but that's not a good start.
Of course, Ryan Rollins had a stress fracture last summer in his foot and then had a Jones fracture in the same foot in February that required surgery so that's not a good start either. Do we have any idea if he will be cleared for Summer League (although perhaps he is traded before then)?
Warriors really like to add players who are injured off the start.
Eric, I think it's great you're adding a play-in tournament to the tournament. Very modern. :)
More like adding an NIT to the NCAA March Madness but appreciate your positive vibes
Would love Bufkin to fall to us. Glad you’ll scout him. Creative 3-level scorer who can guard? Sign me up. Only concerns: doesn’t have elite athleticism, measurables (height, wingspan), and recency bias (best games were last 8 when Jett Howard was injured). We’ve drafted plenty of wings recently- Kuminga, Moody, PBJ - would be nice to stock up on guards. Rollins didn’t pop as hoped, though haven’t given up on him.
I still don't have a feel for what Rollins really can do. I've seen too little of him.
OT: enjoyed this piece in the guardian: "A pickup truck doing ballet: Nikola Jokić is making the NBA finals his masterpiece" https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2023/jun/08/nikola-jokic-nba-finals-denver-nuggets
It is, I think intentionally, a bit over the top, but maybe not. Dude is awesome.
"Even in peak form Jokić’s machinations on the court seem somehow improbable. The NBA’s contemporary greats all have a signature style of movement. LeBron James thunders, James Harden ambles, Steph Curry bounces, Kevin Durant glides, Ben Simmons sits. Jokic happens – awkwardly, implausibly, and, it sometimes seems, unintentionally, but with a kind of inevitability. At times his limbs seem to get ahead of him like baseball bats spilling from a bag; at others there’s a kind of patterned tranquility about his movements that recalls stop motion animation. Many of his shots are taken off balance, with a single hand, from the waist, above the head, or in a position that suggests that Jokić is about to hit the deck.
Somehow, though, it all works. "
He definitely does not strike a pretty form. He comes off looking awkward and clumsy, as if he's just playing in the park. But it works! His shots go in. His passes are on point. He's in perfect position to get the rebounds. And that's the beauty of Jokic.
I still see a lot of water polo in his game.
Yeah. The part where he keeps his arms up out of the water when shooting or passing.
Should’ve been “…like a food truck doing ballet.” Amirite?
Love the prose.
Poole for Sexton and Olynk might not be a bad trade.
Part of me feels like I'm selling really low on JP right now and he'll make me eat those words next year but I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.
I definitely think Poole will return next year with a vengeance and be a MUCH improved player. He's such a hard worker and if he can get his 3 pt shooting to being reflective of his FT% than his entire game would open up.
Defensively, he'll always be bad but hopefully he can return to our Championship year level defense where he performed much better.
Why should he always be bad defensively, if he's a hard worker?