As a bit of an aside, Slater’s most recent article included this interesting nugget:
“ The Warriors believe they improved this summer, team sources emphasized, basing that partially on internal number models that gave a positive-value thumbs-up to the additions of Melton, Anderson and Hield. A few analytics-driven employees from around the league agree. One rival’s metric model had Golden State fourth in the conference. ”
Yeah, I'm usually pretty happy with Slater's writing, but this summer he seems to be in Monte Poole mode, whining that the FO hasn't pulled off something, and so Steph and Dray are doomed to be on a shitty team. Not saying this team is a world beater, but LA is going through the same thing with LeBron and AD - sometimes the deal just isn't out there.
My other peeve is the undercurrent of "is Steph happy, or does he want to win one more ring?". Is there a team that he could go to that guarantees him a ring out there? Sixers? Milwaukee for Dame? If the Dubs youth turn into OKC this year or they get a great player in Feb, that would be great, but nothing is guaranteed. Can't we just enjoy watching a great player do great things with the team that he seems to like (still) and not worry about fictional team building exercises or whining about what didn't happen?
I note you said "says he's his manager." His agents are Andrew Morrison and Steve Heumann. What sort of "manager" would he have? Maybe it's legit but it smells strange to me.
Yup. He confirmed the first time that it was his dad, and he’s never said anything along the lines of his dad having recovered. His answers were more along the lines of “things are stable/under control for the moment”.
I’m just grateful that the Warriors have been so understanding with letting him take time off during the season. Professional sports often seems like they glorify outrageous levels of compartmentalization and putting the team above personal situations….and I’m glad that Wiggins is getting to prioritize his family.
Hey look, 3 of the Warriors' games against NOP are NOT on a back to back this year. The only one that is a back to back is with NOP @ Chase in games 4 & 5 of the year
Lol... these things change every year... some young dudes are gonna #maketheleap and impact their team more than these analysts think they will, and other dudes are gonna get injured... they should do the "before vs. after" for the 23/24 season where we had back to back home back to backs with Minny & OKC that looked like an easy 3-1 stretch against 2 teams coming off play-in years.
Starting with seven of the first ten on the road including a five game road trip and one back-to-back at home, so starting with a bang. Got a six game road trip in February, technically seven but broken up by the all-star game, and another five gamer at the end of the month. A six game road trip ends March and the schedule ends on April 13th. As with last year there are 80 games schedule with two to fill in around the in-season tournament.
One oddity; we play the T'Wolves three times in December (one of those back-to-back) and then the fourth time in January. Hope we can manage that better than last year...
My impressions after only a quick glance; a little more bunched, with bigger days off in-between, and looks, I guess, somewhat better than in recent memory? Just a first impression though.
At least we start @POR & @UTA, so hopefully 2 wins to start us off right there... and maybe we get in that B2B with NOP before they settle their pecking order...
I'd also point out that the 6 game road trip in Feb has nicely paired @MIL/@CHI and @DAL/@HOU games, so it's not too bad from a travel standpoint. And the road game coming out of the break is @SAC... so that's just a longer commute than usual.
Did......Curry have to prove to Lacob and Co that he still had it?
* Key Warriors' Stakeholders = Mike Dunleavy Jr, Steve Kerr, Joe Lacob, Kirk Lacob
Steve Kerr coached that team. Mike Dunleavy was in attendance. Draymond Green was roaring from the middle of the bleachers. Joe Lacob and Kirk Lacob followed from afar. The key Warriors’ stakeholders grasp Curry’s sustained greatness and, team sources said, there is an internal understanding that his current supporting cast can’t be considered a finished product if the 2025 NBA championship is believed to be a reachable goal.
It really was... I'm convinced Ainge saw the report that the Nets got 5 FRPs for Bridges and thought, "wait, what?!?!?! If Bridges goes for 5, Markkanen is worth 6 or 7!"
I still think there will be some sort of a deal to move Moses Moody as he should have some value and is completely buried on the depth chart right now. That said, he doesn't make very much money so to get a player back that makes any kind of a difference he would probably need to be sent out with GPII and/or Looney just to match salaries.
> I still think there will be some sort of a deal to move Moses Moody
I kinda agree... but what are the Warriors getting in that deal? A trade with Moses Moody being the chief asset going out is not going to return a meaningful "win now player"... If you're looking at Moses + GP2 + FRP, you're looking to bring back a ~$15M/year player. I highly doubt the Warriors are sending him out for a FRP unless that's then part of a much bigger trade to send that FRP out in a much larger transaction.
Tell me who on this list is a meaningful return for a Moses Moody centered trade package:
Either Bogdonovic? Harry B? Jarret Allen? I don't really see it...
I think the Warriors end up keeping him around, expect him to beat out some guys for a rotation spot, and then either rely on his contribution the rest of the season, or try to flip him at the deadline when an underperforming team is trying to move on from their current stars.
>and then either rely on his contribution the rest of the season, or try to flip him at the deadline when an underperforming team is trying to move on from their current stars.
and then we'll have to play the "will he fit in the Warrior's system" game again too unless it's Giannis which is unlikely. I think he rides it out in MIL even if they underperform
I just realized how conflicted I'm going to be to start the season.
I've been dumping on Hield for years (watched Sac when he came over in the trade).
And yet, now that he's a Warrior, I just caught myself wondering if he could be an emergency point guard (answer, almost certainly not, and there were no mind-altering substances involved that I can blame that thought on).
As we’ve I’ve been saying, I think Hield is a great candidate for the role that Klay SHOULD be playing at this point; sharpshooter off the bench. He can provide spacing, especially when Steph isn’t on the floor, and his defensive shortcomings will be partially offset by facing more 2nd stringers.
When I’ve made this argument before, I’ve heard “At least Klay tries hard on defense.” That may be true, but Klay also has a lot of brain farts that his great defensive effort no longer compensates for it.
The difference is Hield is presumably realistic about his role coming in and not believing or acting like the starting 2-guard spot is his birthright, and will be much easier for Kerr to yank if he starts chucking wildly.
On the other hand, Hield could be placed in the starting lineup to provide much needed spacing so that we could play Kuminga/Dray/TJD together. His shitty defense could be neutralized by Kuminga/Dray/TJD.
True, but I think Ol’ Man Curry and Hield would be pretty shaky defensively. Podz, Moody and especially Melton make more sense as backcourt mates for SC.
I think Kuminga is just more of a 4, slasher/finisher type of guy rather than a guy with a perimeter skillset is what I meant. I think with a better constructed roster he would only play the 4, but in order to get sufficient playing time I wonder if they are going to force him in at the 3 this season, which I think is a problem.
Contract and role matter. When SAC signed him to a $85 M extension and was counting on him as being a number 2 scorer, that was simply expecting/asking too much of him. But for the warriors, at ~3 years (partial guarantee on 3rd year) at an average of $9M per year (convenient for trades, less than NTPLME), for a ~10th* man? That's a very reasonable contract/player. Now, it's definitely possible that I'd rather see Moody on the court, but we'll see.
Approximate depth chart:
1. Curry
2-3. Draymond, JK
4-6. Podz, Wiggins, TJD
7-10. Moody, Melton, SloMo, GPII
11. Hield
12-14. Looney, Santos, Waters
* I think assuming a fully healthy rotation, I'd always rather have Moody or Melton on the floor than Hield, but that may change...and the rotation won't always be fully healthy.
** I suppose $9M per year is a bit much for a 10th man, but a) the front office probably thinks he's better than a 10th man and b) the contract itself seems reasonable.
*** Tobias Harris and Wiggins (and Klay's last contract) all had similar arcs--they were/are good players but their contracts were too big and the expectations were too high. When you take away the max contract, it's easier to view them in a much more positive light.
I don’t know which tier they belong on, but I’d put Hield even with GP2. I see them as the each other’s yin and yang; one’s a defensive specialist and one’s an offensive specialist. If you could combine them into one player, it’d totally be worth the combined $17m salary.
If you could combine Hield's offense and GPII's defense (and Hield's durability), you'd have the best 3&D player in the league. The closest analogue is Klay in his prime, but with worse shooting and better defense.
I might flip Looney and Moody in your rankings. I fully expect Looney to start, and TJD and Dray to be the 2nd and 3rd centers (in whatever order you want). As Green ages, I think Kerr is going to be even more careful about managing his minutes against bigger players.
Ideally you'd like to see Moody slot in where Melton or SloMo would be (8-9), but he's clearly going to have to earn minutes away from the other wing depth (which, all of a sudden, we have a lot of).
I would love for Looney to have a bounce back season, but by end of last season TJD was starting and Looney was getting DNPs. I only expect TJD to keep getting better, so I expect him to continue to start except against maybe some of the bigger bruising centers where Looney might hold up better.
End of the year is when Kerr starts shortening his rotations for the playoffs.
Looney is a decent center, and as an 'innings-eater', he's still going to be great.
I expect him to start, because other teams starting centers tend to be their biggest physical specimens, and Looney is still better on D against those guys. As undersized centers, it's asking a lot to have TJD or Dray play bigger guys the whole season and be fresh for the playoffs.
Plus, of course, the number one criteria for starting is 'how do you play with Steph' and Loon is a great complement to Steph (so is TJD). If we have a good shooting wing on the floor (Wiggs/Moody/Hield, perhaps JK) then Loon's lack of scoring is less of an issue with the starters.
TJD's offense, to me, is more valuable on the second unit, anyway.
All of this IMHO, of course. I could be completely wrong.
I believe the best way to survive the Buddy Hield Experience is to have low expectations. He should hit threes at an above average rate and absolutely everything else (defensive awareness, passing, etc etc) is a bonus.
Imma just say this now: I will never ever forgive Danny Green for single-handedly destroying Klay’s prime. The hateful and profoundly heinous things I wish upon DG are absolutely disturbing and frequent. Don’t care if it was intentional or not, we all missed out on years of prime Klay and we have no idea what that might’ve looked like.
I think I read that this is the first time in a few years that the Warriors haven't headlined opening night.
"Opening night is set for Oct. 22, and will feature the Boston Celtics versus the New York Knicks and the Minnesota Timberwolves at the Los Angeles Lakers, according to The Athletic's Shams Charania. "
We keep talking about how great it would be to have Wiggins bounce back, but how ‘bout Looney? If last year’s fall off was simply due to conditioning, then it looks like he’s addressing the issue.
"Free agent guard Patty Mills has agreed on a one-year, $3.3 million deal with the Utah Jazz, sources tell ESPN. Mills will reunite with coach Will Hardy for his 16th NBA season on a fully guaranteed deal."
Assuming no trades happens before training camp I just find it hard to believe we're going to dump Pat Spencer to make room for QP. He has managed to stick around for a while at this point so it seems like coaching staff likes what he brings to the table. It has to be Beekman that gets the axe, right?
I'm with you on this one. Spencer is a solid choice for 3rd ball handler. He's got a winning mentality, never quits, and can be very efficient. OTOH, this is a numbers game and the end of the bench can become a crap shoot for many different reasons.
I think they've done the 'tryout' thing a couple of years in training camp. It wouldn't surprise me that they would do that again this year, and offer the winner the 2-way and the loser an SC roster slot (mechanics might be interesting, ... maybe one player would need to be on an exhibit 10 contract for camp). No way to really know at this point.
I can't say that I have a strong rooting interest in either player (Spencer or Beekman).
It's more practical to keep Spencer, as he has a clear immediate use for the NBA team. But Beekman (22yo vs 28 yo) is a lot younger so you can dream more about him as a prospect.
I first thought Beekman would have the inside track, but if he'll accept a SC assignment with an unwritten guarantee of the next two-way contract and a bigger than minimum guarantee payment when he's waived, maybe that could work.
Echoing others, I think the role is to help fill in when Steph is out. If Steph is out, Podz gets 36 min at point. To fill in the other 12 min, either it’s a two-way (Beekman/Spencer) or it’s Dray/SlowMo/Melton.
I think it’s fair to say that the Melton/SloMo/Dray hydra will be better than the 2-way this season, so I’d lean toward the player with the higher upside.
I think Spencer’s ceiling is 3rd string PG—not sure about Beekman. Maybe he has the ability to be a defense-first backup PG eventually…but he also might never be as good as Spencer is now
Hard to compare him to Beekman when we have not seen Beekman play very much. He comes with respected college experience. Though short, his on ball defensive reputation, is something I think the Warriors need.
I think Spencer is a nice G League player. I'm not convinced he belongs in the NBA. A training camp competition is fine but I think Post gets a 2-way regardless and it's between Beekman, Spencer, and maybe a surprise candidate at training camp. That is, unless they have buyer's remorse with Plowden at camp, good as he looked in Summer League.
Hot take for a Warriors site here, I don't think Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time. He's absolutely the greatest three-point shooter of all time, but when u take into account mid-range shooting than he doesn't have the requisite volume/efficiency.
If I had to choose the greatest shooter of all time (which combines mid-range shooting AND three point shooting), my pick is Kevin Durant. He's statistically the greatest mid-range shooter of all time AND he's the circa 15th best 3 PT shooter of all time statistically (though the level of difficulty of his 3 PT shooting has me ranking him 10th all time).
The All Time Great volume/production/efficiency shooting from every inch of the court has me ranking him as the greatest shooter of all time.
I guess it really depends how (or if) you differentiate between scoring and shooting. For me, scoring is a player's overall ability to get buckets, and shooting (as it related to ranking the best shooters) is how efficient a player converts perimeter shots into points.
To me, I would associate your description with scoring more than shooting. And I'd rank KD over Steph with overall scoring ability. A lot of that is skill but you can't ignore 6'3" vs. 7' either. It's just a lot easier to get a decent shot off when you're taller than most of the NBA.
Interesting, we differ there as I think Curry is a superior scorer to KD. When I'm evaluating scoring, I'm primarily interested in your ability to generate points on per possession basis.
KD is a better tough shot maker, but Curry's playstyle involving off ball movement/pick and roll/3 pt shooting COMBINED with insane efficiency makes him an analytic dream because he gets open much more easily with off ball/pick and roll (compared to KD's ISO's) AND gets more bang for his buck (threes are more valuable than mid-range shot).
While KD's more versatile given his mid-range ability, versatility isn't as big of a deal for me if your scoring skillset is proven to be defensive scheme resistant (dont matter what they do, u score a la Kareem/Hakeem/Shaq).
So when it comes to who is the better scorer, I got Curry.
I think Curry is the better offensive weapon for all those reasons you listed... but when it comes to individual scoring, I think being 7' vs. 6'3" just opens up a ton of options... eg. a face-up jumper is a much more viable option when you're taller than 90% of the league.
You're assuming the main goal of shooting in a game of basketball is to shoot and make many shots from as many places on the court as possible.
You can also start from a different assumption, that the main goal of shooting in a game of basketball is to score as many points per jumpshot (or whatever you want to count as "shooting") as possible.
Your logic isn't wrong, but your foundation is not very closely aligned with how the game of basketball is won.
If you believe Steph and KD are both trying to win the games they play in, the very stats you're looking at are a measure of how they accomplish that goal of winning games with their shooting skill. Stripping the central objective they're focused on achieving with their shooting out of your judgment of that skill seems like a blind spot.
That’s it. The NBA need to institute a 10 man game of horse with no dunks allowed to decide the NBA’s best shooter on All-Star weekend. If you don’t attend you can’t get the crown. If more than 10 want to play: the top 5 seeds are set in advance and the rest have to earn their way in to the final 5 slots with a qualifying tournament.
I think KD being barely above average all around the arc more than negates the increased volume and efficiency inside. Especially when Curry's efficiency is great on longer 2s as well and the efficiency only drops close to the key. Cut out the inner 10 ft, and the colors (which represent efficiency & volume due to dot-sizes) paint a pretty clear picture to me about the better shooter with these 2 criteria.
As for shot difficulty, I don't have access to any metrics for that, but they exist. 'm curious what they say, since both players seem to take difficult shots wherever they are on the floor.
With a take like this you should at least post the data that’s leading you there.
KD isn’t anywhere near Steph as a 3P shooter.
KD isn’t a better shooter anywhere. If the mid range is your point he’s not a better shooter there due to volume. Hes a 7’ player who can much more easily get a high volume of shot attempts over the shorter players guarding him. If Steph had 5’10 guys guarding him he’d probably take more mid range shots.
Basically you’re saying he’s a better scorer, and most people would agree with that.
Also Curry has KD by 3 percentage points from the free throw line, which is the form of shooting that is most comparable across shooters even if I don't think it should be the only measure looked at. 3 percent is a pretty substantial margin to claim the guy with the worse percentage is the best shooter of all time imo.
I actually do think Nash could have been an interesting case had he been encouraged to shoot more threes (and he would have won at least one championship if that was the case), but he wasn't so it is all hypothetical.
Yeah, the argument seems to be that KD has access, by virtue of his height, to a less difficult shot diet. That much is pretty clearly true, but it’s not the same thing as being a better shooter.
If anyone wants a list that is based on actual objective analysis, this Thinking Basketball pod is excellent: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/thinking-basketball/episodes/164-The-best-shooters-ever-e1slgp6. [EDIT] One of the really cool things about this is Ben has developed some analysis tools based existing data that allows estimation of shooting prior to the three point line, so it's not just the three point era he's analyzing. Really interesting stuff. [EDIT: correction - all the way back to the debut of the three point line, NOT prior]
Or, flinging hot takes back and forth is good too.
Firstly, I listen to the Thinking Basketball pod religiously so great plug.
Secondly, if you'd actually listened the podcast before referencing it, they are only analyzing peak shooting AND shooting outside 15 ft. I analyze from 10 ft to 3PT range AND I look at the ENTIRETY of someone's career to make my analysis.
Still its an interesting listen that I highly recommend.
They aren't exclusive to outside 15 feet, they just don't consider shooters very highly if they can't extend much out beyond it. Regardless, they have Steph comfortably above KD, and peak versus entirety of career is not relevant in that comparison.
They explicitly state that they are evaluating purely from outside 15 ft, it's one of their criteria and is literally listed in their description as well. As for peak vs entirety of career, I prefer evaluating the entirety of a player's career when determining who is the best shooter.
I used to value peaks more highly, but I've changed my perspective on that. I like having a larger sample size across a greater variety of teams and development of different defensive styles/trends in the NBA.
Nope. I actually just listened to it. They are excluding guys who are good shooters from inside 15 but can't extend the range out. From closer, they are not excluding anything, but they aren't giving it as much weight. Chris Paul is a guy they rank in their list (25th) and it's more based on his medium to long two game than anything else (he's not a great three point shooter). To maybe be a little bit more specific, they are trying to suss out long two and three point shooting skill, but they are using data from the midrange (and free throw line) as well as data from actual long twos and threes.
Also, they're looking at shooting indicators in addition to actual recorded production to try to account for shot diet changes and lack of good data going back over the last 50 or so years.
My brother in Christ, they clearly state that "I'm not interested in guys that shoot from 8 or 12 feet . . . but I'm really thinking of 15 feet or so
and out.
They also state that this podcast is discussing "the concept of outside shooting skill and . . . shooting OUTSIDE OF 15 FEET going back to 1980".
They absolutely give more weight the greater the distance (which I disagree with), but they explicitly state that you can be a great "a great 15-foot mid-range guy but if you can't even make threes very well" they're not going to value as much. They're not randomly mentioning 15 feet, that's the minimum distance they're evaluating for.
Like I don't know what else to say, they made their criteria explicitly clear lols.
I'm a lot more interested in knowing what the Warriors are going to do to create enough cap space or an available 2-way contract slot so they can sign QP. My totally uninformed speculation is that they will waive Pat Spencer.
I'd love to read an analysis of the top available players from G-League. I have a suspicion that more of them could translate to the NBA then people realize.
Maybe, but there are a lot of people who have a lot of money on the line as far as getting those decisions right. They work pretty hard and while some of them may be bad at it, it seems unlikely that all of them are so bad at it that it somehow leads to a pile of G-League players who should be in the NBA over players who are currently there not making it.
Now if you want to argue (or are arguing) that the bottom tier of NBA players and the top tier of G league players are really close then I think that's true and you would make David Silver really happy, as I think that was the point. A bit like AAA players in baseball.
Team sports are strange. See USA women’s basketball sending their B team to play in the Olympics while the Women’s Soccer team finally freed themselves.
Random observation: I watched the games back to back and the difference in level of play between those two gold medal matches was stark.
I don't know about David Silver but yes, Adam Silver might point out that the purpose of the G League is to be a feeder minor league for the NBA, so of course the top G League players are good enough that some of them will eventually make NBA rosters.
To be clear, I'm less making an argument for (because my level of credence/confidence in this point is very weak), just pointing out a feeling/suspicion I have that "the bottom tier of NBA players and the top tier of G League players are really close".
I don't really know how i would go about proving that to be the case though.
Oh well for that claim, i don't see how you could come up with a strict proof, but i also think it's self evident, because every year a few g-league guys get an NBA contract and often Borderline or young NBA guys are sent to the G league and they do not dominate enough to invalidate that claim.
Yeah, a few of us (maybe you were even there?) had a little discussion about that a while ago and that was the general consensus. There was some speculation that a trade would happen to consolidate some of the roster spots. I THINK that's looking less likely ... at least in the short term. Plus we apparently need room for Cabocolo (sp?) and Yabu now, too. ;P
Steph takes way more 3s and hits them at a way higher % (as they are worth siginificantly more than a midrange), KD takes way more midrange and hits them at a similar %, and Steph is a better FT shooter. So to provide an ice cold take, Steph and KD are two of the greatest shooters we have ever seen, but Steph is the greatest
Solely analyzing shooting purely by percentages/volume is a useless endeavor, it doesn't take into account shot difficulty/on the move vs standstill shooters/off the dribble shooting/double teams.
Nobody can keep up with Curry in terms of volume/percentage/versatility of threes/difficulty of threes . . . but KD is one of the few players who even comes approaches him when it comes to the full scope of threes. On the other hand, Curry's volume on mid range shots are practically non-existent and the versatility/difficult of the mid range shots are nowhere near even contemporary mid range greats like Demar Derozan LET ALONE all timers.
I'm sorry, u can't just be nearly non-existent an entire facet of shooting and be crowned greatest shooter of all time imho. We can't just assume u'd also be great at that, based on a small sample size that is of vastly lower difficulty.
I think KD's the shooting GOAT because he's all time great in BOTH categories and has proved it by volume/efficiency/difficulty of execution.
I mean if we're talking about the difficulty in shots as a factor in comparing KD and Steph's 3 pt shooting...come on lol. It wasnt that long ago that we witnessed the Cavs choosing to double Steph at the 3 pt line while letting KD walk in for a dunk. If you want to handwave objective data regarding their volume/efficiency from the mid/3/and FT shooting, then you do you
Firstly, taking into account volume AND difficulty of shotmaking isn't HANDWAVING away data, its properly contextualizing which is what any responsible utilizer of stats does.
Secondly, this is the most played out and overrated talking point by Warrior fans. Firstly, the Cavs doubling Steph on that play is not in any way indicative of a larger trend. For example, KD has gotten doubled wayyy more than Curry this year ranking 9th in the league compared to Curry's 17th.
Furthermore, when Curry/KD were on the same team, its way too simplistic to simply conclude that teams doubled Curry more because he was the better player/shooter (I do think he's the better player, not better shooter).
For example, one reason teams doubled Curry more because he's always susceptible to turning the ball over when trapped because he's short and can have difficulty delivering the ball over taller defenders. Furthermore, Doc Rivers talked about why he preferred to double Steph because Steph/Klay/Draymond offball generates way more open threes which, as u said, is the far more valuable shot.
To be clear though, Steph being better at a more valuable shot, makes him a better player NOT a greater shooter. Kareem was better at layups than Derozan, doesn't mean he's a better shooter.
It wasn't a singular play, it was the entire Cavs (and every playoff opponent, frankly) scheme to prioritize taking away Steph's offball threat and live with KD's ISOs. It was part of what made the team so unbeatable, but also a pretty key factor in the Rockets nearly pulling the upset when KD had a cold streak (whereas a Steph-centric team managed to easily beat a fully healthy CP3 Rockets the following year).
I would also contest the "doubled more" stat, given it is (presumably) entirely related to onball doubles and can't factor in how frequently a team sends 2 guys to a guy curling around a screen, but I imagine KD also gets his fair sure of those doubles anyway. But this kind of gets back to my counter of the idea that KD has "harder" shots. A contested isolation is very easy to see, while Steph running around 4 screens, getting doubled, kicking it out and relocating around another pair of screens for a shot is only something you can identify by really paying attention (or, more likely, via film review). A bit subjective, but I would argue that constant movement against a team dedicated to stopping your 3 is a harder shot generation than scoring in isolation
Imagine KD, the greatest shooter of all time, out there taking that many three point shots. Yeah. No.
KD shouldn't' get his well-earned greatest shooter of all time crown taken away because of the fact that he doesn't have to take as many three point jump shots.
Your exact argument could easily be flipped and used against u just as effectively, its a poor one. Shooting should take into account performance ALL across the floor, NOT just from the three point line and beyond.
> KD shouldn't' get his well-earned greatest shooter of all time crown taken away
Weird comment, since literally everyone other than you calls Steph the greatest shooter of all time, and most people call KD the greatest scorer (not shooter) of all time.
I honestly find greatest scorer of all time odd as KD doesn’t shoot many more free throws and Steph gets to the rim far more than KD [EDIT: looking at the stats, both of these things have been true for a while now, but earlier in KD's career he shot way more free throws than he does now and got to the rim more as well] but whatever.
Klay returns to the Bay Area on Nov 12, the first game of the NBA Cup. Not sure if this old soul is quite emotionally ready for this but I'm sure the reception will be glorious.
Well, that's cool, but I'm still sitting back enjoying the hypothetical 8 consecutive Larry's with a few more still to come that the Dubs won where KD and Klay didn't get hurt and decided to stay with GS, and Draymond learned to control his emotions.
Sad how the Warriors keep losing these hypothetical battles, from 2015 vs Cavs with Love and Kyrie to 2017-2019 without KD, etc etc. We’ll just have to take comfort in what really happened, which is almost as good
The amount of certainty expressed in hypotheticals is damn near directly proportional to the amount of doubt, insecurity or discomfort the pontificator feels, underneath it all, toward the real thing.
The actual tenor of the podcast was more "guy doing a bit as an arrogant American saying the rest of the world has no chance" than shitting on Curry specifically imo, I don't think he was discrediting Curry as much as discrediting the rest of the world.
"The first game of Victor Wembanyama's second NBA season -- which doubles as Chris Paul's official Spurs debut -- is scheduled for Oct. 24 at Dallas, sources tell @TheSteinLine. Opening Night for both teams on a TNT Thursday."
As a bit of an aside, Slater’s most recent article included this interesting nugget:
“ The Warriors believe they improved this summer, team sources emphasized, basing that partially on internal number models that gave a positive-value thumbs-up to the additions of Melton, Anderson and Hield. A few analytics-driven employees from around the league agree. One rival’s metric model had Golden State fourth in the conference. ”
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5684308/2024/08/15/warriors-steph-curry-future-roster/?source=user_shared_article
Yeah, I'm usually pretty happy with Slater's writing, but this summer he seems to be in Monte Poole mode, whining that the FO hasn't pulled off something, and so Steph and Dray are doomed to be on a shitty team. Not saying this team is a world beater, but LA is going through the same thing with LeBron and AD - sometimes the deal just isn't out there.
My other peeve is the undercurrent of "is Steph happy, or does he want to win one more ring?". Is there a team that he could go to that guarantees him a ring out there? Sixers? Milwaukee for Dame? If the Dubs youth turn into OKC this year or they get a great player in Feb, that would be great, but nothing is guaranteed. Can't we just enjoy watching a great player do great things with the team that he seems to like (still) and not worry about fictional team building exercises or whining about what didn't happen?
My other peeve is the undercurrent of "is Steph happy, or does he want to win one more ring?".
And people act like it’s an either/or question
Wiggins potentially dealing with another family emergency according to this guy who says he's his manager.
https://m.weibo.cn/status/5067241959728001?jumpfrom=weibocom#&video
I note you said "says he's his manager." His agents are Andrew Morrison and Steve Heumann. What sort of "manager" would he have? Maybe it's legit but it smells strange to me.
Player overseas representation might be different. People that are more qualified for the international marketing side of the business.
I thought no Wiggins might be better referred to as overlakes.
That’s terrible. It seems like his family has really been going through it these past couple of years.
Leading suspected issue has been an ailing parent, right? Those sorts of things tend to keep getting worse in new ways...
I have inside info. Expect continued poor play and absences from Wiggins this year. His dad is not in good shape, has not recovered.
Yup. He confirmed the first time that it was his dad, and he’s never said anything along the lines of his dad having recovered. His answers were more along the lines of “things are stable/under control for the moment”.
I’m just grateful that the Warriors have been so understanding with letting him take time off during the season. Professional sports often seems like they glorify outrageous levels of compartmentalization and putting the team above personal situations….and I’m glad that Wiggins is getting to prioritize his family.
Analysis of the schedule:
October:
-Seems all right. Clippers and two B2B games against the Pels are gonna be tough IMO.
November:
-Bro, WTF! Celtics, Cavs, AND Thunder on the road already?! We're gonna be losing at least two of those unless we get lucky.
-9 road games and 5 home games. This month is gonna kill the Warriors legs.
-We go up against the Thunder twice and the Pels and the Spurs on a B2B. I don't like this.
December:
-More home games this time. That's good. But why are we facing the Wolves three times in a single month?
January:
-16 games in a single month. Yikes. At least 11 of those are home games.
-This is the first month where the Warriors face against the Kings.
February:
-Warriors end the first half of the season with 6 road games in 9 nights, with two B2Bs against the Jazz + Lakers and Mavs + Rockets.
March:
3/8-3/20 has 7 home games. That's nice.
3/22-3/30 has 4 road games. That's also nice.
April:
-Not a fan of Warriors playing 5 games in 7 nights in 4/3-4/9. Fortunately, that's the only 5-in-7 I see in the Warriors schedule.
Warriors have 13 B2Bs (one 5-in-7) and 10 two-day rests.
Players I am most anticipating seeing in preseason, and why:
1. JK: Is handle better? Is he wearing an "I heart Asher" t-shirt?)
2. Moody: I want to see some better on-ball D, and maybe a teensy bit more quickness
3. Post: can he move on D?
4. Lindy Waters: It was such an out-of-left-field move, I want to see what the FO is interested in.
5. Bud E. Love (great lounge show ... wait, wrong Buddy): I want to see some energy on D, and I'm guessing he'll give it!
6. Plowman (missed most of summer league, wondering what the fuss is about).
I’m interested to see how much Podz is able build off last season, but am worried about his self confidence.
Full schedule is out:
https://www.nba.com/warriors/schedule
Hey look, 3 of the Warriors' games against NOP are NOT on a back to back this year. The only one that is a back to back is with NOP @ Chase in games 4 & 5 of the year
r/warriors
18 min. ago
taygads
Warriors 24-25 schedule with each game color-coded for difficulty based on strength of the opponent, courtesy of Positive Residual
https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1et5t3r/warriors_2425_schedule_with_each_game_colorcoded/
Lol... these things change every year... some young dudes are gonna #maketheleap and impact their team more than these analysts think they will, and other dudes are gonna get injured... they should do the "before vs. after" for the 23/24 season where we had back to back home back to backs with Minny & OKC that looked like an easy 3-1 stretch against 2 teams coming off play-in years.
https://youtu.be/OQD5fLz-hUE?si=y6Q3pZ7dxtjw9-VQ
Dubs sked release vid
no Dubs games in the opening week national TV schedule is frankly bizarre
Not as bizarre as the Clippers new logo...
Hear the call of Cthulhu ... I mean the Clippers.
East: Knicks twice, Celtics, Bucks, Sixers, Pacers, Magic*
West: Lakers x3*, Suns x2, Clippers x2*, Nuggets x2*, Wolves, Spurs, Mavs, Grizz*, Kings*
*one game on NBA TV
Starting with seven of the first ten on the road including a five game road trip and one back-to-back at home, so starting with a bang. Got a six game road trip in February, technically seven but broken up by the all-star game, and another five gamer at the end of the month. A six game road trip ends March and the schedule ends on April 13th. As with last year there are 80 games schedule with two to fill in around the in-season tournament.
One oddity; we play the T'Wolves three times in December (one of those back-to-back) and then the fourth time in January. Hope we can manage that better than last year...
My impressions after only a quick glance; a little more bunched, with bigger days off in-between, and looks, I guess, somewhat better than in recent memory? Just a first impression though.
At least we start @POR & @UTA, so hopefully 2 wins to start us off right there... and maybe we get in that B2B with NOP before they settle their pecking order...
I'd also point out that the 6 game road trip in Feb has nicely paired @MIL/@CHI and @DAL/@HOU games, so it's not too bad from a travel standpoint. And the road game coming out of the break is @SAC... so that's just a longer commute than usual.
Did......Curry have to prove to Lacob and Co that he still had it?
* Key Warriors' Stakeholders = Mike Dunleavy Jr, Steve Kerr, Joe Lacob, Kirk Lacob
Steve Kerr coached that team. Mike Dunleavy was in attendance. Draymond Green was roaring from the middle of the bleachers. Joe Lacob and Kirk Lacob followed from afar. The key Warriors’ stakeholders grasp Curry’s sustained greatness and, team sources said, there is an internal understanding that his current supporting cast can’t be considered a finished product if the 2025 NBA championship is believed to be a reachable goal.
https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1esy46i/slater_internal_understanding_his_current/
> several sources from multiple inquiring teams said they believe, in retrospect, [...] Markkanen’s true availability was a mirage.
It really was... I'm convinced Ainge saw the report that the Nets got 5 FRPs for Bridges and thought, "wait, what?!?!?! If Bridges goes for 5, Markkanen is worth 6 or 7!"
No, he didn't. It's just Slater filling article quota, I think, haha...
I still think there will be some sort of a deal to move Moses Moody as he should have some value and is completely buried on the depth chart right now. That said, he doesn't make very much money so to get a player back that makes any kind of a difference he would probably need to be sent out with GPII and/or Looney just to match salaries.
> I still think there will be some sort of a deal to move Moses Moody
I kinda agree... but what are the Warriors getting in that deal? A trade with Moses Moody being the chief asset going out is not going to return a meaningful "win now player"... If you're looking at Moses + GP2 + FRP, you're looking to bring back a ~$15M/year player. I highly doubt the Warriors are sending him out for a FRP unless that's then part of a much bigger trade to send that FRP out in a much larger transaction.
Tell me who on this list is a meaningful return for a Moses Moody centered trade package:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/players.html
Either Bogdonovic? Harry B? Jarret Allen? I don't really see it...
I think the Warriors end up keeping him around, expect him to beat out some guys for a rotation spot, and then either rely on his contribution the rest of the season, or try to flip him at the deadline when an underperforming team is trying to move on from their current stars.
>and then either rely on his contribution the rest of the season, or try to flip him at the deadline when an underperforming team is trying to move on from their current stars.
and then we'll have to play the "will he fit in the Warrior's system" game again too unless it's Giannis which is unlikely. I think he rides it out in MIL even if they underperform
And make room for Post on the big roster!
I just realized how conflicted I'm going to be to start the season.
I've been dumping on Hield for years (watched Sac when he came over in the trade).
And yet, now that he's a Warrior, I just caught myself wondering if he could be an emergency point guard (answer, almost certainly not, and there were no mind-altering substances involved that I can blame that thought on).
As we’ve I’ve been saying, I think Hield is a great candidate for the role that Klay SHOULD be playing at this point; sharpshooter off the bench. He can provide spacing, especially when Steph isn’t on the floor, and his defensive shortcomings will be partially offset by facing more 2nd stringers.
When I’ve made this argument before, I’ve heard “At least Klay tries hard on defense.” That may be true, but Klay also has a lot of brain farts that his great defensive effort no longer compensates for it.
The difference is Hield is presumably realistic about his role coming in and not believing or acting like the starting 2-guard spot is his birthright, and will be much easier for Kerr to yank if he starts chucking wildly.
On the other hand, Hield could be placed in the starting lineup to provide much needed spacing so that we could play Kuminga/Dray/TJD together. His shitty defense could be neutralized by Kuminga/Dray/TJD.
True, but I think Ol’ Man Curry and Hield would be pretty shaky defensively. Podz, Moody and especially Melton make more sense as backcourt mates for SC.
Wiggs-Dray-TJD worked as a frontcourt, if Kuminga can't clear the Wiggins line for perimeter skills then we have a problem
I think we have a problem
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ guess we'll find out
I think Kuminga is just more of a 4, slasher/finisher type of guy rather than a guy with a perimeter skillset is what I meant. I think with a better constructed roster he would only play the 4, but in order to get sufficient playing time I wonder if they are going to force him in at the 3 this season, which I think is a problem.
Contract and role matter. When SAC signed him to a $85 M extension and was counting on him as being a number 2 scorer, that was simply expecting/asking too much of him. But for the warriors, at ~3 years (partial guarantee on 3rd year) at an average of $9M per year (convenient for trades, less than NTPLME), for a ~10th* man? That's a very reasonable contract/player. Now, it's definitely possible that I'd rather see Moody on the court, but we'll see.
Approximate depth chart:
1. Curry
2-3. Draymond, JK
4-6. Podz, Wiggins, TJD
7-10. Moody, Melton, SloMo, GPII
11. Hield
12-14. Looney, Santos, Waters
* I think assuming a fully healthy rotation, I'd always rather have Moody or Melton on the floor than Hield, but that may change...and the rotation won't always be fully healthy.
** I suppose $9M per year is a bit much for a 10th man, but a) the front office probably thinks he's better than a 10th man and b) the contract itself seems reasonable.
*** Tobias Harris and Wiggins (and Klay's last contract) all had similar arcs--they were/are good players but their contracts were too big and the expectations were too high. When you take away the max contract, it's easier to view them in a much more positive light.
I don’t know which tier they belong on, but I’d put Hield even with GP2. I see them as the each other’s yin and yang; one’s a defensive specialist and one’s an offensive specialist. If you could combine them into one player, it’d totally be worth the combined $17m salary.
If you could combine Hield's offense and GPII's defense (and Hield's durability), you'd have the best 3&D player in the league. The closest analogue is Klay in his prime, but with worse shooting and better defense.
I might flip Looney and Moody in your rankings. I fully expect Looney to start, and TJD and Dray to be the 2nd and 3rd centers (in whatever order you want). As Green ages, I think Kerr is going to be even more careful about managing his minutes against bigger players.
Ideally you'd like to see Moody slot in where Melton or SloMo would be (8-9), but he's clearly going to have to earn minutes away from the other wing depth (which, all of a sudden, we have a lot of).
I would love for Looney to have a bounce back season, but by end of last season TJD was starting and Looney was getting DNPs. I only expect TJD to keep getting better, so I expect him to continue to start except against maybe some of the bigger bruising centers where Looney might hold up better.
End of the year is when Kerr starts shortening his rotations for the playoffs.
Looney is a decent center, and as an 'innings-eater', he's still going to be great.
I expect him to start, because other teams starting centers tend to be their biggest physical specimens, and Looney is still better on D against those guys. As undersized centers, it's asking a lot to have TJD or Dray play bigger guys the whole season and be fresh for the playoffs.
Plus, of course, the number one criteria for starting is 'how do you play with Steph' and Loon is a great complement to Steph (so is TJD). If we have a good shooting wing on the floor (Wiggs/Moody/Hield, perhaps JK) then Loon's lack of scoring is less of an issue with the starters.
TJD's offense, to me, is more valuable on the second unit, anyway.
All of this IMHO, of course. I could be completely wrong.
I believe the best way to survive the Buddy Hield Experience is to have low expectations. He should hit threes at an above average rate and absolutely everything else (defensive awareness, passing, etc etc) is a bonus.
Think of it this way: He's way better and less obnoxious than Nick Young, and we survived Nick Young.
Swaggy B?
Bite your tongue!
This is how my bosses survived my coming into work.
We just went through the CP3 experience and it was… pretty great? Buddy seems easier.
I think Hield will be OK ... maybe even better than that. But, who knows?
I can feel my inner Daniel Hardee coming out as I start making a fanfic in my mind about Lindy Waters emerging as a new age Danny Green.
Imma just say this now: I will never ever forgive Danny Green for single-handedly destroying Klay’s prime. The hateful and profoundly heinous things I wish upon DG are absolutely disturbing and frequent. Don’t care if it was intentional or not, we all missed out on years of prime Klay and we have no idea what that might’ve looked like.
The forgotten Warrior. Wonder if he'll carve out a role for himself this year or be an end of the bench type of guy
It's true, nobody is talking about Lindy Waters. I guess we'll find out in a few months whether there's anything to talk about.
I'm much more interested in how Plowden and Post can develop and slot into the rotations.
I think I read that this is the first time in a few years that the Warriors haven't headlined opening night.
"Opening night is set for Oct. 22, and will feature the Boston Celtics versus the New York Knicks and the Minnesota Timberwolves at the Los Angeles Lakers, according to The Athletic's Shams Charania. "
If you're starved for Warrior content, here's Looney (among other NBA players) scrimmaging:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-emV664d2vM
Wearing black sweats in the scrimmage… clearly working on his fitness over playing his best. A good sign.
Love it. Not scoring, but making winning plays over and over - stops, rebounds, screens.
Video starts off with a Loon stop. That's all I needed to see #DPOY
On Haren, no less.
I watched most of it and don’t think I saw anyone throw him a pass. Hows he supposed to work on his offense if he never gets a touch?
We keep talking about how great it would be to have Wiggins bounce back, but how ‘bout Looney? If last year’s fall off was simply due to conditioning, then it looks like he’s addressing the issue.
He looks slimmer and quicker. Good signs.
I see your guy, Jaime.
There are a lot of UCLA and former UCLA guys in this video, Jaquez and Looney are playing on a UCLA alumni team here basically
Ah. I didn't recognize anyone else other than Harden.
"Free agent guard Patty Mills has agreed on a one-year, $3.3 million deal with the Utah Jazz, sources tell ESPN. Mills will reunite with coach Will Hardy for his 16th NBA season on a fully guaranteed deal."
https://x.com/wojespn/status/1823721396905894371
#19 seed (with their draft pick conveying to OKC) here we come!!
Assuming no trades happens before training camp I just find it hard to believe we're going to dump Pat Spencer to make room for QP. He has managed to stick around for a while at this point so it seems like coaching staff likes what he brings to the table. It has to be Beekman that gets the axe, right?
I'm with you on this one. Spencer is a solid choice for 3rd ball handler. He's got a winning mentality, never quits, and can be very efficient. OTOH, this is a numbers game and the end of the bench can become a crap shoot for many different reasons.
I think they've done the 'tryout' thing a couple of years in training camp. It wouldn't surprise me that they would do that again this year, and offer the winner the 2-way and the loser an SC roster slot (mechanics might be interesting, ... maybe one player would need to be on an exhibit 10 contract for camp). No way to really know at this point.
I can't say that I have a strong rooting interest in either player (Spencer or Beekman).
Oh, to be clear, I think a tryout camp is likely if all two way candidates are willing to go along with it, so I agree with you.
It's more practical to keep Spencer, as he has a clear immediate use for the NBA team. But Beekman (22yo vs 28 yo) is a lot younger so you can dream more about him as a prospect.
I first thought Beekman would have the inside track, but if he'll accept a SC assignment with an unwritten guarantee of the next two-way contract and a bigger than minimum guarantee payment when he's waived, maybe that could work.
I’m confused about Spencer’s role on the team. Other than lacrosse, what does he do better than Podz?
Echoing others, I think the role is to help fill in when Steph is out. If Steph is out, Podz gets 36 min at point. To fill in the other 12 min, either it’s a two-way (Beekman/Spencer) or it’s Dray/SlowMo/Melton.
I think it’s fair to say that the Melton/SloMo/Dray hydra will be better than the 2-way this season, so I’d lean toward the player with the higher upside.
I think Spencer’s ceiling is 3rd string PG—not sure about Beekman. Maybe he has the ability to be a defense-first backup PG eventually…but he also might never be as good as Spencer is now
The role is deep backup point guard or shooting guard.
Don’t compare him to Podz, compare him to Beekman or anyone else GSW could sign to a two-way. Think a type like Chris Chiozza or Ty Jerome.
Ideally he won’t be playing any high leverage minutes (or possibly any NBA minutes).
Hard to compare him to Beekman when we have not seen Beekman play very much. He comes with respected college experience. Though short, his on ball defensive reputation, is something I think the Warriors need.
maybe if we end up trading Podz for Lauri or whoever
yeah I don't want that either
We can stop talking about Lauri for a year. He can't be traded until then.
I'm not sure..... but he keeps on finding his way back to the team so he must be doing something right behind the scenes
Nothing better than Podz, but maybe you could squint and see a 3rd string PG? I can't say I'm real high on Spencer.
I think Spencer is a nice G League player. I'm not convinced he belongs in the NBA. A training camp competition is fine but I think Post gets a 2-way regardless and it's between Beekman, Spencer, and maybe a surprise candidate at training camp. That is, unless they have buyer's remorse with Plowden at camp, good as he looked in Summer League.
How Steph's epic ‘nuit nuit' hoodie was made in time for Olympics win.
https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/steph-curry-2024-paris-olympics-nuit/1770372/
He planned it all along.
Hot take for a Warriors site here, I don't think Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time. He's absolutely the greatest three-point shooter of all time, but when u take into account mid-range shooting than he doesn't have the requisite volume/efficiency.
If I had to choose the greatest shooter of all time (which combines mid-range shooting AND three point shooting), my pick is Kevin Durant. He's statistically the greatest mid-range shooter of all time AND he's the circa 15th best 3 PT shooter of all time statistically (though the level of difficulty of his 3 PT shooting has me ranking him 10th all time).
The All Time Great volume/production/efficiency shooting from every inch of the court has me ranking him as the greatest shooter of all time.
I guess it really depends how (or if) you differentiate between scoring and shooting. For me, scoring is a player's overall ability to get buckets, and shooting (as it related to ranking the best shooters) is how efficient a player converts perimeter shots into points.
To me, I would associate your description with scoring more than shooting. And I'd rank KD over Steph with overall scoring ability. A lot of that is skill but you can't ignore 6'3" vs. 7' either. It's just a lot easier to get a decent shot off when you're taller than most of the NBA.
Interesting, we differ there as I think Curry is a superior scorer to KD. When I'm evaluating scoring, I'm primarily interested in your ability to generate points on per possession basis.
KD is a better tough shot maker, but Curry's playstyle involving off ball movement/pick and roll/3 pt shooting COMBINED with insane efficiency makes him an analytic dream because he gets open much more easily with off ball/pick and roll (compared to KD's ISO's) AND gets more bang for his buck (threes are more valuable than mid-range shot).
While KD's more versatile given his mid-range ability, versatility isn't as big of a deal for me if your scoring skillset is proven to be defensive scheme resistant (dont matter what they do, u score a la Kareem/Hakeem/Shaq).
So when it comes to who is the better scorer, I got Curry.
I think Curry is the better offensive weapon for all those reasons you listed... but when it comes to individual scoring, I think being 7' vs. 6'3" just opens up a ton of options... eg. a face-up jumper is a much more viable option when you're taller than 90% of the league.
You're assuming the main goal of shooting in a game of basketball is to shoot and make many shots from as many places on the court as possible.
You can also start from a different assumption, that the main goal of shooting in a game of basketball is to score as many points per jumpshot (or whatever you want to count as "shooting") as possible.
Your logic isn't wrong, but your foundation is not very closely aligned with how the game of basketball is won.
If you believe Steph and KD are both trying to win the games they play in, the very stats you're looking at are a measure of how they accomplish that goal of winning games with their shooting skill. Stripping the central objective they're focused on achieving with their shooting out of your judgment of that skill seems like a blind spot.
That’s it. The NBA need to institute a 10 man game of horse with no dunks allowed to decide the NBA’s best shooter on All-Star weekend. If you don’t attend you can’t get the crown. If more than 10 want to play: the top 5 seeds are set in advance and the rest have to earn their way in to the final 5 slots with a qualifying tournament.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/stephen-curry-career-shot-chart
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kevin-durant-shot-chart
I think KD being barely above average all around the arc more than negates the increased volume and efficiency inside. Especially when Curry's efficiency is great on longer 2s as well and the efficiency only drops close to the key. Cut out the inner 10 ft, and the colors (which represent efficiency & volume due to dot-sizes) paint a pretty clear picture to me about the better shooter with these 2 criteria.
As for shot difficulty, I don't have access to any metrics for that, but they exist. 'm curious what they say, since both players seem to take difficult shots wherever they are on the floor.
Given the number of double teams defenses that just sellout to stop him, steph just defies odds with his shooting.
I would guess steph is better but I can see the argument. We are talking about town the best of all times at getting a bucket
Arash this morning:
https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=8c5b23401a0c4f4e&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIKS6US9i7-fxJDLnd1jhV_kHVbtPw:1723651333268&q=prove+me+wrong+meme&udm=2&source=univ&fir=BnGSb1fB5dUnCM%252CR6wIpVf2_7vmRM%252C_%253B5NxM5Q39SLLsdM%252CN83YqHEDNa6qyM%252C_%253BJ58JbHz4ewUoDM%252CICbM5zzATeCc4M%252C_%253BC9mefpytQftJ8M%252CEw-DNOf-oozUSM%252C_%253BIE4KOoytkRs2wM%252CWJCZ-YhGvLb0mM%252C_%253BXmdbf0GPfNc5QM%252Ca89e3FHqoK_FVM%252C_%253BJEEU8QfzIAkWSM%252CN18KdgtYbAFbcM%252C_%253ByISBMedJe7vURM%252CMPP6Xb4URYAwOM%252C_%253BOTVVnZ7bVGOnEM%252CtVgsAvku0rmzzM%252C_%253B0iNEbCyBIA6bwM%252CkeIMbf9SRSIm_M%252C_%253BrhAcLBjlFCK_-M%252CG-v9eXHeA7eV-M%252C_%253BDejOw6LFBKlkRM%252C-NIwqYarOGd3tM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kT36-EK82Bq3e2AzopBoYnrSuvJ2A&biw=1309&bih=713&dpr=2.2
Ewww, not Steven Crowder.
I see myself as more like this . . . https://media.tenor.com/7YQC7xzuzcAAAAAM/hannibal-buress.gif
I don't actually know who any of those guys are. i just know the meme. It was between that and writing:
"Arash woke up this morning and chose violence"
Which i view as kind of a text meme, but people don't like to read any more so ...
Fair enough, Crowder is a wife abusing/worker rights infringing/literally putting his nuts on people's shoulder individual.
I've met/known him personally and nearly came to blows, he's a disgrace to all conservatives.
Its a great meme though lols.
By the way, Kevin Durant is the 101th best player by 3 point percentage all time: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_career.html. That's volume exclusive, but it's not like he shoots a lot of threes.
With a take like this you should at least post the data that’s leading you there.
KD isn’t anywhere near Steph as a 3P shooter.
KD isn’t a better shooter anywhere. If the mid range is your point he’s not a better shooter there due to volume. Hes a 7’ player who can much more easily get a high volume of shot attempts over the shorter players guarding him. If Steph had 5’10 guys guarding him he’d probably take more mid range shots.
Basically you’re saying he’s a better scorer, and most people would agree with that.
Also Curry has KD by 3 percentage points from the free throw line, which is the form of shooting that is most comparable across shooters even if I don't think it should be the only measure looked at. 3 percent is a pretty substantial margin to claim the guy with the worse percentage is the best shooter of all time imo.
I actually do think Nash could have been an interesting case had he been encouraged to shoot more threes (and he would have won at least one championship if that was the case), but he wasn't so it is all hypothetical.
Yeah, the argument seems to be that KD has access, by virtue of his height, to a less difficult shot diet. That much is pretty clearly true, but it’s not the same thing as being a better shooter.
If anyone wants a list that is based on actual objective analysis, this Thinking Basketball pod is excellent: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/thinking-basketball/episodes/164-The-best-shooters-ever-e1slgp6. [EDIT] One of the really cool things about this is Ben has developed some analysis tools based existing data that allows estimation of shooting prior to the three point line, so it's not just the three point era he's analyzing. Really interesting stuff. [EDIT: correction - all the way back to the debut of the three point line, NOT prior]
Or, flinging hot takes back and forth is good too.
Did someone say "hotcakes" With syrup and bacon???? Yes! Yes! Ye... wait, it was "hot takes"? ...Oh... never mind.
Firstly, I listen to the Thinking Basketball pod religiously so great plug.
Secondly, if you'd actually listened the podcast before referencing it, they are only analyzing peak shooting AND shooting outside 15 ft. I analyze from 10 ft to 3PT range AND I look at the ENTIRETY of someone's career to make my analysis.
Still its an interesting listen that I highly recommend.
They aren't exclusive to outside 15 feet, they just don't consider shooters very highly if they can't extend much out beyond it. Regardless, they have Steph comfortably above KD, and peak versus entirety of career is not relevant in that comparison.
They explicitly state that they are evaluating purely from outside 15 ft, it's one of their criteria and is literally listed in their description as well. As for peak vs entirety of career, I prefer evaluating the entirety of a player's career when determining who is the best shooter.
I used to value peaks more highly, but I've changed my perspective on that. I like having a larger sample size across a greater variety of teams and development of different defensive styles/trends in the NBA.
Nope. I actually just listened to it. They are excluding guys who are good shooters from inside 15 but can't extend the range out. From closer, they are not excluding anything, but they aren't giving it as much weight. Chris Paul is a guy they rank in their list (25th) and it's more based on his medium to long two game than anything else (he's not a great three point shooter). To maybe be a little bit more specific, they are trying to suss out long two and three point shooting skill, but they are using data from the midrange (and free throw line) as well as data from actual long twos and threes.
Also, they're looking at shooting indicators in addition to actual recorded production to try to account for shot diet changes and lack of good data going back over the last 50 or so years.
My brother in Christ, they clearly state that "I'm not interested in guys that shoot from 8 or 12 feet . . . but I'm really thinking of 15 feet or so
and out.
They also state that this podcast is discussing "the concept of outside shooting skill and . . . shooting OUTSIDE OF 15 FEET going back to 1980".
They absolutely give more weight the greater the distance (which I disagree with), but they explicitly state that you can be a great "a great 15-foot mid-range guy but if you can't even make threes very well" they're not going to value as much. They're not randomly mentioning 15 feet, that's the minimum distance they're evaluating for.
Like I don't know what else to say, they made their criteria explicitly clear lols.
I'm a lot more interested in knowing what the Warriors are going to do to create enough cap space or an available 2-way contract slot so they can sign QP. My totally uninformed speculation is that they will waive Pat Spencer.
I'd love to read an analysis of the top available players from G-League. I have a suspicion that more of them could translate to the NBA then people realize.
Maybe, but there are a lot of people who have a lot of money on the line as far as getting those decisions right. They work pretty hard and while some of them may be bad at it, it seems unlikely that all of them are so bad at it that it somehow leads to a pile of G-League players who should be in the NBA over players who are currently there not making it.
Now if you want to argue (or are arguing) that the bottom tier of NBA players and the top tier of G league players are really close then I think that's true and you would make David Silver really happy, as I think that was the point. A bit like AAA players in baseball.
Team sports are strange. See USA women’s basketball sending their B team to play in the Olympics while the Women’s Soccer team finally freed themselves.
Random observation: I watched the games back to back and the difference in level of play between those two gold medal matches was stark.
I don't know about David Silver but yes, Adam Silver might point out that the purpose of the G League is to be a feeder minor league for the NBA, so of course the top G League players are good enough that some of them will eventually make NBA rosters.
David. Adam. I was close. They both have letters in their name (oops. thanks for the correction)
Maybe you conflated former commish David Stern with Adam Silver?
To be clear, I'm less making an argument for (because my level of credence/confidence in this point is very weak), just pointing out a feeling/suspicion I have that "the bottom tier of NBA players and the top tier of G League players are really close".
I don't really know how i would go about proving that to be the case though.
Oh well for that claim, i don't see how you could come up with a strict proof, but i also think it's self evident, because every year a few g-league guys get an NBA contract and often Borderline or young NBA guys are sent to the G league and they do not dominate enough to invalidate that claim.
Yeah, a few of us (maybe you were even there?) had a little discussion about that a while ago and that was the general consensus. There was some speculation that a trade would happen to consolidate some of the roster spots. I THINK that's looking less likely ... at least in the short term. Plus we apparently need room for Cabocolo (sp?) and Yabu now, too. ;P
Steph:
10-16 ft: 46.4%
16-3pt: 46.2%
3pt: 42.6%
FT: 91%
KD:
10-16 ft: 47.7%
16-3pt: 45.5%
3pt: 38.7%
FT: 88.4%
Steph takes way more 3s and hits them at a way higher % (as they are worth siginificantly more than a midrange), KD takes way more midrange and hits them at a similar %, and Steph is a better FT shooter. So to provide an ice cold take, Steph and KD are two of the greatest shooters we have ever seen, but Steph is the greatest
Solely analyzing shooting purely by percentages/volume is a useless endeavor, it doesn't take into account shot difficulty/on the move vs standstill shooters/off the dribble shooting/double teams.
Nobody can keep up with Curry in terms of volume/percentage/versatility of threes/difficulty of threes . . . but KD is one of the few players who even comes approaches him when it comes to the full scope of threes. On the other hand, Curry's volume on mid range shots are practically non-existent and the versatility/difficult of the mid range shots are nowhere near even contemporary mid range greats like Demar Derozan LET ALONE all timers.
I'm sorry, u can't just be nearly non-existent an entire facet of shooting and be crowned greatest shooter of all time imho. We can't just assume u'd also be great at that, based on a small sample size that is of vastly lower difficulty.
I think KD's the shooting GOAT because he's all time great in BOTH categories and has proved it by volume/efficiency/difficulty of execution.
I mean if we're talking about the difficulty in shots as a factor in comparing KD and Steph's 3 pt shooting...come on lol. It wasnt that long ago that we witnessed the Cavs choosing to double Steph at the 3 pt line while letting KD walk in for a dunk. If you want to handwave objective data regarding their volume/efficiency from the mid/3/and FT shooting, then you do you
Firstly, taking into account volume AND difficulty of shotmaking isn't HANDWAVING away data, its properly contextualizing which is what any responsible utilizer of stats does.
Secondly, this is the most played out and overrated talking point by Warrior fans. Firstly, the Cavs doubling Steph on that play is not in any way indicative of a larger trend. For example, KD has gotten doubled wayyy more than Curry this year ranking 9th in the league compared to Curry's 17th.
Furthermore, when Curry/KD were on the same team, its way too simplistic to simply conclude that teams doubled Curry more because he was the better player/shooter (I do think he's the better player, not better shooter).
For example, one reason teams doubled Curry more because he's always susceptible to turning the ball over when trapped because he's short and can have difficulty delivering the ball over taller defenders. Furthermore, Doc Rivers talked about why he preferred to double Steph because Steph/Klay/Draymond offball generates way more open threes which, as u said, is the far more valuable shot.
To be clear though, Steph being better at a more valuable shot, makes him a better player NOT a greater shooter. Kareem was better at layups than Derozan, doesn't mean he's a better shooter.
It wasn't a singular play, it was the entire Cavs (and every playoff opponent, frankly) scheme to prioritize taking away Steph's offball threat and live with KD's ISOs. It was part of what made the team so unbeatable, but also a pretty key factor in the Rockets nearly pulling the upset when KD had a cold streak (whereas a Steph-centric team managed to easily beat a fully healthy CP3 Rockets the following year).
I would also contest the "doubled more" stat, given it is (presumably) entirely related to onball doubles and can't factor in how frequently a team sends 2 guys to a guy curling around a screen, but I imagine KD also gets his fair sure of those doubles anyway. But this kind of gets back to my counter of the idea that KD has "harder" shots. A contested isolation is very easy to see, while Steph running around 4 screens, getting doubled, kicking it out and relocating around another pair of screens for a shot is only something you can identify by really paying attention (or, more likely, via film review). A bit subjective, but I would argue that constant movement against a team dedicated to stopping your 3 is a harder shot generation than scoring in isolation
Imagine Steph, the greatest shooter of all time, out there taking mid range shots. Yeah. No.
Steph shouldn't get his well earned greatest shooter of all time crown taken away because of the fact he doesn't have to take the mid range.
Imagine KD, the greatest shooter of all time, out there taking that many three point shots. Yeah. No.
KD shouldn't' get his well-earned greatest shooter of all time crown taken away because of the fact that he doesn't have to take as many three point jump shots.
Your exact argument could easily be flipped and used against u just as effectively, its a poor one. Shooting should take into account performance ALL across the floor, NOT just from the three point line and beyond.
> KD shouldn't' get his well-earned greatest shooter of all time crown taken away
Weird comment, since literally everyone other than you calls Steph the greatest shooter of all time, and most people call KD the greatest scorer (not shooter) of all time.
I honestly find greatest scorer of all time odd as KD doesn’t shoot many more free throws and Steph gets to the rim far more than KD [EDIT: looking at the stats, both of these things have been true for a while now, but earlier in KD's career he shot way more free throws than he does now and got to the rim more as well] but whatever.
KD does not have the greatest shooter of all time crown. He's not even in the top five conversation for all time.
Okay maybe KD is top 5.
Curry does not have the greatest shooter of all time crown. He's not even in the top five conversation of all time. Okay maybe Curry is top 5.
U do realize that ur not making an argument, ur just repeating platitudes?
"Curry does not have the greatest shooter of all time crown."
Yes he does.
I'll just leave it at that. Have a nice day, Arash.
😂
Klay returns to the Bay Area on Nov 12, the first game of the NBA Cup. Not sure if this old soul is quite emotionally ready for this but I'm sure the reception will be glorious.
Zach Harper and company suggest USA wins with or without Curry (via The Athletic NBA Show). If it wasn’t Steph, it would’ve been someone else.
Interesting thought experiment to be sure!
Well, that's cool, but I'm still sitting back enjoying the hypothetical 8 consecutive Larry's with a few more still to come that the Dubs won where KD and Klay didn't get hurt and decided to stay with GS, and Draymond learned to control his emotions.
Or meaningless waste of time, like most if not all "what if" stories, since it cannot be proven, and what actually happened is the only reality.
... On its face, cool story Zach. Point of the dream team is overwhelming talent that should win.
And that overwhelming talent was steph in the final moments, which is when it is easiest to get tight.
KD new what was up giving the ball back to steph with a double team, a bucket.
Sad how the Warriors keep losing these hypothetical battles, from 2015 vs Cavs with Love and Kyrie to 2017-2019 without KD, etc etc. We’ll just have to take comfort in what really happened, which is almost as good
Hypotheticals staying undefeated
The amount of certainty expressed in hypotheticals is damn near directly proportional to the amount of doubt, insecurity or discomfort the pontificator feels, underneath it all, toward the real thing.
The actual tenor of the podcast was more "guy doing a bit as an arrogant American saying the rest of the world has no chance" than shitting on Curry specifically imo, I don't think he was discrediting Curry as much as discrediting the rest of the world.
BINGO!
"The first game of Victor Wembanyama's second NBA season -- which doubles as Chris Paul's official Spurs debut -- is scheduled for Oct. 24 at Dallas, sources tell @TheSteinLine. Opening Night for both teams on a TNT Thursday."
https://x.com/TheSteinLine/status/1823505177682268369