One of their best players just went out with hand surgery. Oh, and also, for a team with all these players that are intriguing, the Pacers haven't managed to be all that good
Their situation is weird, because they seemed good last year with room to improve, and then they started out this season with a rough stretch of games, a really bad record despite a higher SRS than most of the East... In fact, they *still* have a better than average SRS (11th overall—better than 12 Western teams) despite being 13th in the standings in the East. So it seems like they have everything they need to climb into the playoffs, but they've been stuck in neutral.
And Levert & Sabonis are clashing on the bench. So probably things behind the scenes aren't so good either. And they wasted last year by hiring a coach that the players hated. So there are management issues too.
We need a ruling from the Basketball Fairness Gods. Apricot, you've talked about this on the videos -- when can you leave a guy in in the fourth quarter, do you take the very last shot, etc. We need a pre-ruling now because if we actually think Steph might go for the record against Portland, we would probably be looking at 1) Serious chucking throughout the game and 2) Possible last-minute chucking. This could be an NBA Etiquette Violation on a scale not seen since Kobe's last game. (Well really nothing could ever reach that level, that was crazy.) So: if Steph shoot 16-40 on threes including two in the last minute, that would be two records, and an epic game. But would it break any unwritten rules?
I would consider it an etiquette violation to leave players in during clear garbage time to go for any record. The only exception would be if it was the last game of the season (see precedents of the Shaq-Robinson scoring battle, Gervin, etc.)
Steph probably could have broken the 14 threes record a few times already if he hadn’t sat the 4th. Klay and even Kobe sat the 4th in games when they had 60+ points.
I just don't see it happening, polite or not, against any team that puts in some energy on defense. Continuous traps, double and triple teams, full court annoying, non-called holding and other defensive shenanigans will take Curry out of his game. Nobody is going to want the career 3 point record dropped on their heads. Expect it to take a game or three longer than you might expect.
Agreed. But you lost me at "any team that puts in some energy on defense." Portland is dead last in defense and might not have Dame or Simons on Wednesday. That might actually work in their favor as defenders, but I don't know the backups' ability to slow steph either.
I hear you. Question: What happens when bad defensive teams put extra emphasis on double teaming? Answer: the rest of the defense goes to hell and savvy ball handlers pass to open guys for easy baskets. Dunk fests. Warm up 3s from the corner. GP2 and JFK having to change shoes because they burned up during multiple high altitude re-entries. Is Curry really going to pass up those goodies so he can take lots of low probability wild 3s with multiple dudes standing inside his uniform?
Really, to not break the "unwritten rule", with few exceptions, the big one is your team has to be losing. For example when Devin Booker put up 70 points the game wasn't close. To do otherwise risks taunting the basketball gods playing a player in meaningless minutes where they could get hurt.
For the record: The Lakers record was 17-65. Kobe played 42 minutes, shot 22-50 FG%, not bad, 6-21 from three (bad ... 28%) with 4 assists which is more than I would have guessed.
I'm bad at rosterbation but Myles Turner for Looney & Wiseman? Expensive for us ... but immediate upgrade at C, but giving up on possible future awesomeness?
How do you see him fitting offensively? I’m not worried about the defense, but he’s not making it better. So the whole deal is offensive improvement, and it seems like the part where he’d add value is subtracting value from what Draymond does.
The main question I'd have about Sabonis is how well he could perform in the dunker spot. The Curry/Draymond pick and roll with a capable dunker there to take advantage of the 4 on 3 is a big a weapon, Sabonis probably isn't as good there as Wiseman, but I do think he's better than Looney.
Otherwise, both he and Draymond are great post passers (and passers in general) and screeners so I feel like they would be interchangeable in those two roles in the motion offense. Both can grab the ball and go in transition as well, although Draymond does it with more pace for sure. Sabonis can rebound (although Looney is probably a better offensive rebounder to be fair), he can handle, he can finish around the rim, he can create his own shot, he has good hands, he can play in the pick and roll. He gets to the line and hits free throws at a 70+% rate so you can't take advantage of him there in the playoffs. He can carry the load on offense and give you a chance if you want to rest Curry for a game or two, he averaged 20 points a game on 60+% TS last season (and is at 18 PPG on 64% TS this season).
I wish he was better as a shooter (although he's more of a threat than Looney regardless) but then again we've seen what the extra space has done for Wiggins, are we sure Sabonis can't be like 35% from three? He's 25 years old, wouldn't be unheard of for a big man with high feel for the game and nice touch around the rim to develop an outside shot as his career progresses. And by the time Curry is 38, Sabonis will be 30 so he could help Curry age gracefully by lessening his load offensively.
Lacob would never do it but Sabonis technically fits their "All-Star" criteria for trading Wiseman.
I think there’s a selling point where we’ve seen this offense bog down at times in playoffs. Sometimes guys just need to take over, and I could see him doing that. Attacking a matchup where he can get buckets for himself while opening up shots for others. That’s the ultimate marginal value. Where he adds 6 points in the 4th quarter of a close playoff game.
On the other hand it’s hard for me to picture him doing that against the toughest playoff big men: Gobert, Davis, Ayton, Giannis or Jokic.. Is he a legit stud or does he feast on lesser opponents?
We’re not going to have or obtain any 5 who’d fit that criteria, except potentially Wise in 3-4 years or JK using speed also in 3-4 years. So, if that’s the goal we need to just hang onto the youngsters and develop them. If, instead, we’re looking for a 5 who fits our system now Sabonis seems pretty ideal.
I have a feeling Draymond deserves credit for ~25% of the defensive win shares that everybody on the team is credited with. He just covers everything everywhere all the time, including putting people in the right spots.
Yeah exactly, I think Sabonis' defensive problems would be significantly covered up by Draymond. The Bjelica/Green combo has a defensive rating of 97.4 in 107 minutes this season (net rating of +13.9). Obviously though some of that is matchup selection by Kerr and Sabonis would be used less as a matchup dependent guy.
Two questions. Since it’s going to be a topic for a while.
1) Assuming Sabonis would cost more, (like adding in Moody and/or 1-2 future firsts) would you rather have Turner or Sabonis?
2) The minimum offer for Turner is likely Wiseman, Looney and one of the minimum salary players like Damion Lee. That’s the minimum to send out to match salaries, and realistically the minimum return Indy would consider.
Is that trade or the version that puts more in for Sabonis at least intriguing?
Neither of them are particularly appealing tbh. Just not interested at all in Sabonis (non-shooting and non-defending bigs get eaten raw in the playoffs unless they are one of the greatest offensive players of all time). The Turner idea is interesting, but we have to give up 2 rotation players (including a guy like DLee who I think is super important in the playoffs) for a guy who doesn't even figure to play in our best lineups (always with Dray at the 5).
It looks like you can actually just trade Looney and Wiseman for Turner without any additional salary. Though that’s very costly to ownership.
It’s a good point that Turner doesn’t improve the most critical lineup though he fits well enough a lineup with him might be close to as good. Giving more flexibility. The big sell I think is that you have an elite defender that can prop up the D when Dray is out. That’s a luxury during the regular season and a pretty powerful advantage in playoff matchups. Even if Turners minutes ended up dwindling in the playoffs
Item #2 is a big deal. Sabonis is making 18.5 mil. And matching that salary is going to require some sort of other asset from the Warriors. Seems like a real high price to pay.
Especially because the current roster is working so well right now, I'm just not seeing this "report" as anything more than the Pacers using Shams to put up a For Sale sign in their window
If we're making this hypothetical trade, we're looking at "win now" and "fit". I think Sabonis checks those boxes a lot better.
Of course, in terms of pulling the trigger on either one, the only thing that will matter is how much the Warriors FO truly believes in Wiseman. I just don't see them going against their stated overwhelming belief in Wiseman, especially with how well the team is already playing & fitting without needing him to be great this year (yet).
I think Sabonis more than Turner but I can't claim expertise, I am not glued to my TV for Indiana games. Sabonis seems more like a Warriors system guy. On the other hand was surprised that Turner can hit the three. Both of them are better than anyone we have at the 5, alas.
And Turner hits the 3 even more aggressively when they play the Dubs. I knew he could make them, but I didn't know his range until last season. - he's not just standing on the line. But they don't seem to utilize it well.
Pretty sure Asher B was kidding, but yeah, technically they can be (30+ days after signing). But obviously they don’t provide much in the way of value or salary ballast.
Anybody in the NBA not playing hard is going to lose their minutes to somebody else who will come in and play hard. They may not be playing to "win tonight", but they are playing to get better and showcase themselves for their next contract. The players on the margins of being out of the league are going to be working like hell to stick in the league.
You're giving these NBA players a participation medal. They did play hard but it didn't do much. I guess it earned respect but not a win, which sounds like a lot of their games.
in order for players and teams to be good, by definition it requires other players and teams that are less good. The Warriors are positioned as the best team in basketball this season.
The Magic were a stretch to make the playoffs, and then half their team (the good half) got hurt.
When he got taken out in the 3rd, I bet Steph was worried he wasn't going to be going back in the game. He'd forgotten that a critical element of the new rotation is that in blowouts, he's responsible for stepping on their necks for the first 3-4 minutes of the 4th quarter.
Better yet, work a trade for Kyrie Irving, keep the Wagners, make the playoffs and Richard Wagner's "Ride of the ValKyries" would be their pregame theme song. I would give anything to see that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG2_wOorgjU
Outside of clickbait, I can’t understand any of the Kyrie trade talk, if he’s ambivalent about playing with bball soulmate Durant then you’re certainly not getting him to go along with a trade to ____ you can fill in the blank (TWolves 😂)
Know everyone is high on JK, for good reason, he's gonna be a PROBLEM, but I think everyone (meaning most media) is truly sleeping on Wiseman. People seem to talk about him as if he is still playing as poorly as he was last year despite the fact that he has yet to step on the court. He has a very clear role in the short term and its a role he can fill easily. With Curry, Klay and now Three-Way Wiggs stretching the floor, Andre, Poole, Dray, JTA playing ping pong with the ball, JK threatening the rim from the 3 point line, the sky is figuratively and literally the limit. JDub and GPII are gonna be slapping hands above the rim like Milli Vanilli at the Grammy's (sorry, I couldn't find the video). On defense, he just has to be active early on position in the post, maintain verticality, allow his size and length to do the work for him, just be an obstacle with a 7'6" wingspan and the best hair in the NBA. On offense, all he has to do is set screens and rim run and he's gonna be dunking biscuits in gravy like he's at a Golden Coral. A Golden State Coral that is.
Offensively, I think the biggest thing for Wiseman is to understand he's not the focal point anymore which means he needs to be a finisher, not a shot creator.
He was taking 15.8 FGA per36 last year on low assist rate and meh efficiency. Part of his negative was he was taking shots away from Curry and replacing them with inefficient jumpers (25% of his attempts in the 10ft to under 3pt range).
Bring that down to like 10-12 FGA per36, take out all the mid-range jumpers, and if he doesn't have a good look just keep moving the ball.
Call me optimistic, but I fully expect Wiseman to look better defensively pretty quick. This current roster seems to be good at communicating on defense and covering each other's weaknesses. If the Warriors can make Bjelica look decent (barring obvious matchups of course), then I expect good things from Wiseman.
Imagine a lineup of like, Poole-GP2-Wiggins-JK-Wise running in transition. That'll be fun.
I'm pumped for Wiseman on offense and I think an already lethal offense can get better with him. While Loon is no one's idea of a great offensive player, he does a lot of smart screen setting and little handoffs that work right now, so I think we'd want Wiseman to do at least some of that the same way. But the main knock on Wiseman is on defense. It's really hard to learn where to be and what to do and last year he was not very good at it, missed the switch, fouled a lot. So as requested I'm calling you optimistic there, but I'll be so too, and see what happens.
Fusho. I'm pumped about all the offseason moves and I think Myers is gonna get another GM of the year. Just amused that Bjelly's ceiling on D. seems to be "decent." He knows exactly what to do but his foot speed and hops leave him admiring Looney's.
Yet, on offense, his handle is smooth enough that he regularly makes threatening drives past a defender. (His 3pt being a threat certainly helps, but still...)
Looney struggled with those types of ball handlers as well, forcing us to play small with Dray/Otto at center. Part of the reason why the Grizzlies gives us problem because Ja Morant is quick/explosive but also mixes in hesitations + great passing to bigs who can shoot.
I like his hair as well. I'm not sure it's better than Jimmy Butler's "crown" look, though. JK could learn a lot from either of those guys. One of these days, we ought to do a survey of Warriors hairstyles.
He needs to be watching film of all the great 3s and 4s that didn't have a jumper coming into the league. Jimmy, Kawhi, Giannis, Draymond, Andre, LeBron... ok, maybe don't watch too much LeBron, we don't want him stopping the ball thaaat much.
I, for one, have always been optimistic about Wiseman. I don't think much at all can really be learned from last season. Remember... the Warriors took JaVale McGee who, at the time, was more of a punchline than a player and turned him into a valuable contributor on a championship team. His time with the Warriors saved his career.
Give Wiseman some basic assignments on both defense and offense, let him gain some confidence and experience, and he's going to be a net positive for us. Heck, if the Warriors can get valuable services out of Looney for as long as they have I can't imagine them not being able to get value out of Wiseman! (p.s., I like Looney)
The fact that Loon (for all his strengths and lovability) seems as incapable as ever of dropping in a basic layup at the rim makes it pretty easy to imagine giving 8-12 minutes per game to young James when he returns. Let’s see how he looks in those minutes and go from there.
Loon one of my all time favorites. But he is our defensive specialist. We got Belly as our offensive ball moving stretch-5. Then Wiseman. That is a great center rotation with lots of options for Kerr. Oh, did I forget Green?!!! It's an embarrassment of riches at the 5 once Wiseman can ball for 16-24 a game.
"the clock is zero after the basket" - the memphis shot qualifies. doesn't matter if the clock runs to zero while the ball is in the air, or right when it goes through the hoop. if clock runs to zero after then there's time still on the clock and it isn't a "buzzer beater"
yeah, that's what I was trying to say: Memphis shot counts by "the click is zero after the basket". It's inarguably the biggest and most important one of his career. So they must be only counting regular season shots. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I forgot to ask in that game, but this reminds me: when JTA grabs the ball, he goes into the backcourt. Ref calls no backcourt violation because it was deflected but it looks to me like Warriors had possession the whole way. I mean they were in trouble for sure, but Phoenix never touched it -- I think? Would that not change the call?
Well deserved, but he was let down by the weirdly calm announcer reaction from the national broadcast announcer. I don't know how Fitz&Kelenna reacted in real time because I was also watching the national broadcast...
Player A: 22.2 pts per 36 on .591 ts (.416 from 3)
Player B: 22.6 pts per 36 on .526 ts (.266 from 3)
Only one of the two is a 6’-8” 26 y.o. freak athlete who runs all day, never gets hurt, and happily locks down the other team's best players (from CP3/Spida to Kawhi/LeBron) for by far the #1 defense in the league.
A is Two-Way Wiggs; B is Bradley Beal.
Yet somehow: all off-season the brainiacs were castigating Bob Myers for not **throwing in Wiseman, Kuminga, Riley, Ryan, and Canon Curry** for the pleasure of making that swap — thereby teaming Steph with a 6'-3" defensive liability whose three ball has weirdly deserted him for four seasons now (.351, .353, .349, .266).
Heck ... even this stupid fanboy seriously entertained the notion (though IIRC, I stopped just short of Canon Curry), so I can’t LOL too hard.
Direct efficiency comparisons (though Beal's has been really bad for some weird reason this year) between a high-volume self-creator and a system player are not useful at all. Put Beal in this system playing off Steph and his efficiency will skyrocket (just like Wiggins' and everyone else who's ever played with Steph did).
Beal's been at 58-59% TS for the past 3 years, so I wouldn't anticipate that this will hold (just like I wouldn't anticipate that Wiggins' 3P% will hold).
Bradley Beal was once considered a good defender when his offensive usage was lower. Andrew Wiggins was once considered a terrible defender when his offensive usage was higher.
Player B(eal): 22.6 pts per 36 on .526 ts% (.266 3pt%)
Player A is 22 years old, on a rookie deal(~2.2, 3.5mil)for two more years(then a restricted free agent) and player B(eal) is 28, making ~36mil this year and can walk out the door at the end of the season.
If neither guy would start over a fully operational Klaybot anyhow, I’d take my chances on Jordan Poole 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
I am often wrong, and mostly OK with admitting it, but this time I was certainly not on the Beal train. I have never believed he added much to a team other than points and even those he seemed to be getting flukily well last year. He's not a guy who over his career gets you assists, rebounds, defense, or wins. It also wouldn't have made sense to trade Wiggins for him because there was really no one to replace what Wiggins does while Poole and Lee can do some of what Beal does, not as well but in that role, and of course, if Klay comes back well then Beal wouldn't even start.
The downward trajectory of Beals 3P shot is bizarre. 3-4 years ago you could say he no longer has Wall setting him up, plus higher volume and it makes a little sense he’d go from 40+ to mid 30’s.
But then he dropped in volume last year w Westbrook (who despite his ballhoggery is a passer who can set up outside shooters) and didn’t have any uptick in efficiency like you’d expect.
Then he dropped volume even more this year while the percentage has cratered. The team has been better then expected and that’s given him a little cover on a trend that’s passing Alarming Town on the way to Disasterville
Maybe, I’m just a crotchety old homer who can’t stand change or maybe it’s just the joy of watching something organic spring to life-dominate-mellow-procreate and enter the cycle again but I hate teams I love trade away pieces and become something I no longer recognize and or connect with “in my feelings”, I guess I’m really old to lament the advent of free agency in Sport
He's obviously having a down year. But I have to say, nothing against him, but I was NEVER on the Beal train. Like not even straight up for Wiggins, because of fit. I would expect over time Wiggins will trend down and Beal up from where they are right now, but even so would be very happy the team didn't make that move.
Same. Beal just didn't make sense on this roster. I know that the question of "fit" is debatable, but why would you trade someone decent at a position of need (Wiggs) just to get another player that plays the same position as your best player?
Felt more like a case of "ehhhh, this guy may be available, I guess" and the internet running with it. Beal would be great as a self creator, but there's no way in hell I'd want to trade Wiggs for Beal - or really anyone like him. I think Dame was rumored to come here but again, you'd be creating a massive roster hole and tons of defensive issues just to fill a 'want'
100 percent. Never understood where the forced narrative was coming from. I was just hoping Myers was smart enough to know better. Of course he is. Thanks Bob.
Lol that discrepancy is huge. Also wiggins’ 3pt% went from .382 to .415 in one night!!
I never really got the Bradley Beal hype, always thought he was overhyped because he was in the hunt for scoring title.
However, I can’t get all high and mighty about it — I’ve always erred on the side of defense and caution, and was legitimately initially ambivalent about losing HB for Durant… good thing I’m not GM
Eh, they're 19 years old. They played 12 & 4 minutes respectively last night. If they play ~25-30 minutes against Agua Caliente, they should be on the bench against Portland to soak up any and all garbage time minutes, even though it'd be 3 games in 3 days. Heck, if they're playing well, they haven't played so much that 5-10 minutes of non-garbage time could be reasonable too.
By the way, if the Pacers were this close to tearing it down and rebuilding, why did they pick a 24 year old in the draft?
Also, I'm going to say it: Rick Carlisle is no longer a good coach.
You mean the best player in the draft that the Warriors were desperate to pick? /s
One of their best players just went out with hand surgery. Oh, and also, for a team with all these players that are intriguing, the Pacers haven't managed to be all that good
Their situation is weird, because they seemed good last year with room to improve, and then they started out this season with a rough stretch of games, a really bad record despite a higher SRS than most of the East... In fact, they *still* have a better than average SRS (11th overall—better than 12 Western teams) despite being 13th in the standings in the East. So it seems like they have everything they need to climb into the playoffs, but they've been stuck in neutral.
And Levert & Sabonis are clashing on the bench. So probably things behind the scenes aren't so good either. And they wasted last year by hiring a coach that the players hated. So there are management issues too.
We need a ruling from the Basketball Fairness Gods. Apricot, you've talked about this on the videos -- when can you leave a guy in in the fourth quarter, do you take the very last shot, etc. We need a pre-ruling now because if we actually think Steph might go for the record against Portland, we would probably be looking at 1) Serious chucking throughout the game and 2) Possible last-minute chucking. This could be an NBA Etiquette Violation on a scale not seen since Kobe's last game. (Well really nothing could ever reach that level, that was crazy.) So: if Steph shoot 16-40 on threes including two in the last minute, that would be two records, and an epic game. But would it break any unwritten rules?
I would consider it an etiquette violation to leave players in during clear garbage time to go for any record. The only exception would be if it was the last game of the season (see precedents of the Shaq-Robinson scoring battle, Gervin, etc.)
Steph probably could have broken the 14 threes record a few times already if he hadn’t sat the 4th. Klay and even Kobe sat the 4th in games when they had 60+ points.
(To be clear, garbage time only applies to the winning team. All’s fair for the losing team.)
I just don't see it happening, polite or not, against any team that puts in some energy on defense. Continuous traps, double and triple teams, full court annoying, non-called holding and other defensive shenanigans will take Curry out of his game. Nobody is going to want the career 3 point record dropped on their heads. Expect it to take a game or three longer than you might expect.
Klay got it against Chicago and he was getting pretty open looks when he was actively gunning for 14. So I have to disagree.
Agreed. But you lost me at "any team that puts in some energy on defense." Portland is dead last in defense and might not have Dame or Simons on Wednesday. That might actually work in their favor as defenders, but I don't know the backups' ability to slow steph either.
I hear you. Question: What happens when bad defensive teams put extra emphasis on double teaming? Answer: the rest of the defense goes to hell and savvy ball handlers pass to open guys for easy baskets. Dunk fests. Warm up 3s from the corner. GP2 and JFK having to change shoes because they burned up during multiple high altitude re-entries. Is Curry really going to pass up those goodies so he can take lots of low probability wild 3s with multiple dudes standing inside his uniform?
Excellent question. Excellent.
Really, to not break the "unwritten rule", with few exceptions, the big one is your team has to be losing. For example when Devin Booker put up 70 points the game wasn't close. To do otherwise risks taunting the basketball gods playing a player in meaningless minutes where they could get hurt.
If Curry came into the Portland game of a mind to break 3pt game and all time records things could get really weird in a hurry.
He didn't rule it out in the postgame whatsoever and neither did Kerr. They were both like "Hey it could happen...."
Kobe's last game proves that exceptions are allowed.
For the record: The Lakers record was 17-65. Kobe played 42 minutes, shot 22-50 FG%, not bad, 6-21 from three (bad ... 28%) with 4 assists which is more than I would have guessed.
Yeah and honestly... I was okay with that one.
@antonin_org
Some Steph Curry games:
10-13 3P in 26 minutes
10-15 3P in 34 minutes
11-16 3P in 32 minutes
11-16 3P in 29 minutes
11-15 3P in 36 minutes
11-15 3P in 30 minutes
11-13 3P in 48 minutes
12-16 3P in 38 minutes
13-17 3P in 36 minutes
If someone can make 16 3s in a game, it's him.
Just wanted to add: Klay 14-24 in 27 minutes
Amazing that he hasn't taken more than 17 3PA in any of the games he's made all least 10.
I just feel like whenever he reaches for stuff like this, it's more of a problem. Like he goes 2 for 10 when he needs 5 shots to eclipse some record
Klay took 24 3PA to get the single-game record. The next most threes he's taken is 16 (twice). He took five threes to get the last one. It's hard!
(Correction: next most threes taken 18, he's taken 16+ seven times)
(Steph has 52 games with 16+ attempts)
Breakdown:
22 x1
21 x1
20 x4
19 x7
18 x5
17 x11
16 x23
OK I'm done :)
Agree, needs to be in the flow of the game.
Hmmmm…
https://mobile.twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1468277020161458187
Can't see this org trading wiseman which is basically what would be needed
Daydreaming about a Turner/Draymond frontcourt. That's a lot of "you're not scoring here" vibes
But more seriously if we can get Sabonis or Myles Turner without trading away the whole farm, that could be interesting. Bleh on Caris Lavert.
I'm bad at rosterbation but Myles Turner for Looney & Wiseman? Expensive for us ... but immediate upgrade at C, but giving up on possible future awesomeness?
Man...I think Sabonis would be such a good fit next to Draymond.
How do you see him fitting offensively? I’m not worried about the defense, but he’s not making it better. So the whole deal is offensive improvement, and it seems like the part where he’d add value is subtracting value from what Draymond does.
The main question I'd have about Sabonis is how well he could perform in the dunker spot. The Curry/Draymond pick and roll with a capable dunker there to take advantage of the 4 on 3 is a big a weapon, Sabonis probably isn't as good there as Wiseman, but I do think he's better than Looney.
Otherwise, both he and Draymond are great post passers (and passers in general) and screeners so I feel like they would be interchangeable in those two roles in the motion offense. Both can grab the ball and go in transition as well, although Draymond does it with more pace for sure. Sabonis can rebound (although Looney is probably a better offensive rebounder to be fair), he can handle, he can finish around the rim, he can create his own shot, he has good hands, he can play in the pick and roll. He gets to the line and hits free throws at a 70+% rate so you can't take advantage of him there in the playoffs. He can carry the load on offense and give you a chance if you want to rest Curry for a game or two, he averaged 20 points a game on 60+% TS last season (and is at 18 PPG on 64% TS this season).
I wish he was better as a shooter (although he's more of a threat than Looney regardless) but then again we've seen what the extra space has done for Wiggins, are we sure Sabonis can't be like 35% from three? He's 25 years old, wouldn't be unheard of for a big man with high feel for the game and nice touch around the rim to develop an outside shot as his career progresses. And by the time Curry is 38, Sabonis will be 30 so he could help Curry age gracefully by lessening his load offensively.
Lacob would never do it but Sabonis technically fits their "All-Star" criteria for trading Wiseman.
I’m not totally sold, but I could see it.
I think there’s a selling point where we’ve seen this offense bog down at times in playoffs. Sometimes guys just need to take over, and I could see him doing that. Attacking a matchup where he can get buckets for himself while opening up shots for others. That’s the ultimate marginal value. Where he adds 6 points in the 4th quarter of a close playoff game.
On the other hand it’s hard for me to picture him doing that against the toughest playoff big men: Gobert, Davis, Ayton, Giannis or Jokic.. Is he a legit stud or does he feast on lesser opponents?
We’re not going to have or obtain any 5 who’d fit that criteria, except potentially Wise in 3-4 years or JK using speed also in 3-4 years. So, if that’s the goal we need to just hang onto the youngsters and develop them. If, instead, we’re looking for a 5 who fits our system now Sabonis seems pretty ideal.
I have a feeling Draymond deserves credit for ~25% of the defensive win shares that everybody on the team is credited with. He just covers everything everywhere all the time, including putting people in the right spots.
Yeah exactly, I think Sabonis' defensive problems would be significantly covered up by Draymond. The Bjelica/Green combo has a defensive rating of 97.4 in 107 minutes this season (net rating of +13.9). Obviously though some of that is matchup selection by Kerr and Sabonis would be used less as a matchup dependent guy.
Two questions. Since it’s going to be a topic for a while.
1) Assuming Sabonis would cost more, (like adding in Moody and/or 1-2 future firsts) would you rather have Turner or Sabonis?
2) The minimum offer for Turner is likely Wiseman, Looney and one of the minimum salary players like Damion Lee. That’s the minimum to send out to match salaries, and realistically the minimum return Indy would consider.
Is that trade or the version that puts more in for Sabonis at least intriguing?
Neither of them are particularly appealing tbh. Just not interested at all in Sabonis (non-shooting and non-defending bigs get eaten raw in the playoffs unless they are one of the greatest offensive players of all time). The Turner idea is interesting, but we have to give up 2 rotation players (including a guy like DLee who I think is super important in the playoffs) for a guy who doesn't even figure to play in our best lineups (always with Dray at the 5).
It looks like you can actually just trade Looney and Wiseman for Turner without any additional salary. Though that’s very costly to ownership.
It’s a good point that Turner doesn’t improve the most critical lineup though he fits well enough a lineup with him might be close to as good. Giving more flexibility. The big sell I think is that you have an elite defender that can prop up the D when Dray is out. That’s a luxury during the regular season and a pretty powerful advantage in playoff matchups. Even if Turners minutes ended up dwindling in the playoffs
I think Sabonis is the better player but Turner fits what the Warriors actually need now. I can see that flipping in about 3-4 years.
Item #2 is a big deal. Sabonis is making 18.5 mil. And matching that salary is going to require some sort of other asset from the Warriors. Seems like a real high price to pay.
Especially because the current roster is working so well right now, I'm just not seeing this "report" as anything more than the Pacers using Shams to put up a For Sale sign in their window
If we're making this hypothetical trade, we're looking at "win now" and "fit". I think Sabonis checks those boxes a lot better.
Of course, in terms of pulling the trigger on either one, the only thing that will matter is how much the Warriors FO truly believes in Wiseman. I just don't see them going against their stated overwhelming belief in Wiseman, especially with how well the team is already playing & fitting without needing him to be great this year (yet).
I think Sabonis more than Turner but I can't claim expertise, I am not glued to my TV for Indiana games. Sabonis seems more like a Warriors system guy. On the other hand was surprised that Turner can hit the three. Both of them are better than anyone we have at the 5, alas.
And Turner hits the 3 even more aggressively when they play the Dubs. I knew he could make them, but I didn't know his range until last season. - he's not just standing on the line. But they don't seem to utilize it well.
It was inevitable... and time for them to start putting out messages, now that the Portland domino is looking wobbly.
Downtin, start packin' yer bags.
Downtin a-be packin his bags.
I see what you did there
Pretty sure Asher B was kidding, but yeah, technically they can be (30+ days after signing). But obviously they don’t provide much in the way of value or salary ballast.
I was wondering as typing. I was messing around but I don't get this two way thing, I'll freely admit.
Nobody does, they just don’t want to admit it...
OT/ it was cool to see how hard the Magic played from 20+ pts down all second half, 5 wins seems a bit harsh
Anybody in the NBA not playing hard is going to lose their minutes to somebody else who will come in and play hard. They may not be playing to "win tonight", but they are playing to get better and showcase themselves for their next contract. The players on the margins of being out of the league are going to be working like hell to stick in the league.
You're giving these NBA players a participation medal. They did play hard but it didn't do much. I guess it earned respect but not a win, which sounds like a lot of their games.
in order for players and teams to be good, by definition it requires other players and teams that are less good. The Warriors are positioned as the best team in basketball this season.
The Magic were a stretch to make the playoffs, and then half their team (the good half) got hurt.
Very admirable, but also deprived us of a whole 4th quarter of rookie garbage time
I'm irrationally disappointed JK's putback didn't make the NBA top 10 plays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upULK_Nvzho
Not irrational
When he got taken out in the 3rd, I bet Steph was worried he wasn't going to be going back in the game. He'd forgotten that a critical element of the new rotation is that in blowouts, he's responsible for stepping on their necks for the first 3-4 minutes of the 4th quarter.
[...like a mirror reflecting a laser.]
That is indeed quick, Sir Apricot
The name "Wagner" is synonymous with drama. I wonder if those guys can sing?
in QAnon Shaman helmets!
I would definitely be pursuing that angle if I was their agent.
Better yet, work a trade for Kyrie Irving, keep the Wagners, make the playoffs and Richard Wagner's "Ride of the ValKyries" would be their pregame theme song. I would give anything to see that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG2_wOorgjU
Isn’t it flight not rude?
Ride
Outside of clickbait, I can’t understand any of the Kyrie trade talk, if he’s ambivalent about playing with bball soulmate Durant then you’re certainly not getting him to go along with a trade to ____ you can fill in the blank (TWolves 😂)
Know everyone is high on JK, for good reason, he's gonna be a PROBLEM, but I think everyone (meaning most media) is truly sleeping on Wiseman. People seem to talk about him as if he is still playing as poorly as he was last year despite the fact that he has yet to step on the court. He has a very clear role in the short term and its a role he can fill easily. With Curry, Klay and now Three-Way Wiggs stretching the floor, Andre, Poole, Dray, JTA playing ping pong with the ball, JK threatening the rim from the 3 point line, the sky is figuratively and literally the limit. JDub and GPII are gonna be slapping hands above the rim like Milli Vanilli at the Grammy's (sorry, I couldn't find the video). On defense, he just has to be active early on position in the post, maintain verticality, allow his size and length to do the work for him, just be an obstacle with a 7'6" wingspan and the best hair in the NBA. On offense, all he has to do is set screens and rim run and he's gonna be dunking biscuits in gravy like he's at a Golden Coral. A Golden State Coral that is.
Sir, you are a master of the metaphor, the simile, and the non-sequitur. Keep it up!
Offensively, I think the biggest thing for Wiseman is to understand he's not the focal point anymore which means he needs to be a finisher, not a shot creator.
He was taking 15.8 FGA per36 last year on low assist rate and meh efficiency. Part of his negative was he was taking shots away from Curry and replacing them with inefficient jumpers (25% of his attempts in the 10ft to under 3pt range).
Bring that down to like 10-12 FGA per36, take out all the mid-range jumpers, and if he doesn't have a good look just keep moving the ball.
Call me optimistic, but I fully expect Wiseman to look better defensively pretty quick. This current roster seems to be good at communicating on defense and covering each other's weaknesses. If the Warriors can make Bjelica look decent (barring obvious matchups of course), then I expect good things from Wiseman.
Imagine a lineup of like, Poole-GP2-Wiggins-JK-Wise running in transition. That'll be fun.
I'm pumped for Wiseman on offense and I think an already lethal offense can get better with him. While Loon is no one's idea of a great offensive player, he does a lot of smart screen setting and little handoffs that work right now, so I think we'd want Wiseman to do at least some of that the same way. But the main knock on Wiseman is on defense. It's really hard to learn where to be and what to do and last year he was not very good at it, missed the switch, fouled a lot. So as requested I'm calling you optimistic there, but I'll be so too, and see what happens.
Take that back. Bjelica decently defended CP3. Even in bad matchups he still looks "decent"...
Coach to Nemanja: "Super proud of you! You've worked and worked and we've decided that you are now ... decent... sorta."
If you told Kerr he was going to get a vet min stretch big that had decent playmaking and decent defense, I bet he's doing backflips.
Fusho. I'm pumped about all the offseason moves and I think Myers is gonna get another GM of the year. Just amused that Bjelly's ceiling on D. seems to be "decent." He knows exactly what to do but his foot speed and hops leave him admiring Looney's.
Yet, on offense, his handle is smooth enough that he regularly makes threatening drives past a defender. (His 3pt being a threat certainly helps, but still...)
CP3 isn't his bad matchup.
It's the really quick ball handlers. CP3 is about smarts and guile.
Looney struggled with those types of ball handlers as well, forcing us to play small with Dray/Otto at center. Part of the reason why the Grizzlies gives us problem because Ja Morant is quick/explosive but also mixes in hesitations + great passing to bigs who can shoot.
Ja is a problem.
That's fair :-P
Especially ones with an explosive first step, like that Maxey kid in Philly who is blowing up this year.
I like his hair as well. I'm not sure it's better than Jimmy Butler's "crown" look, though. JK could learn a lot from either of those guys. One of these days, we ought to do a survey of Warriors hairstyles.
Joku needs to be watching tape on Jimmy. I see SO much of him that reminds me of a young Jimmy Butler its insane.
He needs to be watching film of all the great 3s and 4s that didn't have a jumper coming into the league. Jimmy, Kawhi, Giannis, Draymond, Andre, LeBron... ok, maybe don't watch too much LeBron, we don't want him stopping the ball thaaat much.
My favorite and my wife’s least is Curry’s cornrows
Where did they go? We barely knew ya!
At the very least the Warriors might start winning the opening jump ball.
Isn't that why we need to start GPII?
I, for one, have always been optimistic about Wiseman. I don't think much at all can really be learned from last season. Remember... the Warriors took JaVale McGee who, at the time, was more of a punchline than a player and turned him into a valuable contributor on a championship team. His time with the Warriors saved his career.
Give Wiseman some basic assignments on both defense and offense, let him gain some confidence and experience, and he's going to be a net positive for us. Heck, if the Warriors can get valuable services out of Looney for as long as they have I can't imagine them not being able to get value out of Wiseman! (p.s., I like Looney)
With you!
The fact that Loon (for all his strengths and lovability) seems as incapable as ever of dropping in a basic layup at the rim makes it pretty easy to imagine giving 8-12 minutes per game to young James when he returns. Let’s see how he looks in those minutes and go from there.
Loon one of my all time favorites. But he is our defensive specialist. We got Belly as our offensive ball moving stretch-5. Then Wiseman. That is a great center rotation with lots of options for Kerr. Oh, did I forget Green?!!! It's an embarrassment of riches at the 5 once Wiseman can ball for 16-24 a game.
Hey, you even forgot GP2! Now that’s an embarrassing richness of 5’s 😉
And Kuminga.
I think even Otto may be big/rugged/reboundy enough to play some 5 in Kerrball.
Alas, JTA can play center in a pinch. How many centers do we have on this damn team anyway?!!!! lol
Ha ha! Bob Myers in the dark corner of the room rubbing his hands together is cracking a smile...
So what, we have our D-5 (Loon), our Stretch 5 (Belly), our Small Ball-5 (Draymond), our Future-5 (Wiseman), and our Bouncy-5 (GPII)?
What would you call a playoff lineup of Curry, Klay, Dray$, Dre, and GP2? Megadeath?
championship-bound
Our Mighty Mouse 5
Currently on the NBA youtube home page: https://youtu.be/rfbtRbw4_yE
Umm... no "Bang Bang"? No 3 quarter shot in Memphis? Sheesh... guess there are too many
I believe they are counting only literal buzzer beaters, i.e. the clock is at zero after basket.
Memphis shot was after the buzzer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UArnkoxcJ_A
But it was in the playoffs, maybe they are only counting regular season.
"the clock is zero after the basket" - the memphis shot qualifies. doesn't matter if the clock runs to zero while the ball is in the air, or right when it goes through the hoop. if clock runs to zero after then there's time still on the clock and it isn't a "buzzer beater"
yeah, that's what I was trying to say: Memphis shot counts by "the click is zero after the basket". It's inarguably the biggest and most important one of his career. So they must be only counting regular season shots. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also, look who shows up in the video image for the top 20 dunks of the week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J3ysicGkcI
I forgot to ask in that game, but this reminds me: when JTA grabs the ball, he goes into the backcourt. Ref calls no backcourt violation because it was deflected but it looks to me like Warriors had possession the whole way. I mean they were in trouble for sure, but Phoenix never touched it -- I think? Would that not change the call?
of course he does
Well deserved, but he was let down by the weirdly calm announcer reaction from the national broadcast announcer. I don't know how Fitz&Kelenna reacted in real time because I was also watching the national broadcast...
NBCSN version: https://youtu.be/Ta-0SePBSzc
They mostly let the crowd reaction speak for itself
Or maybe they were trying to speak but were drowned out by crowd
I can see why they went with the other, but this is better. Fitz&Kelenna letting the moment breathe instead of interjecting was nice.
Let's play Player A / Player B.
Player A: 22.2 pts per 36 on .591 ts (.416 from 3)
Player B: 22.6 pts per 36 on .526 ts (.266 from 3)
Only one of the two is a 6’-8” 26 y.o. freak athlete who runs all day, never gets hurt, and happily locks down the other team's best players (from CP3/Spida to Kawhi/LeBron) for by far the #1 defense in the league.
A is Two-Way Wiggs; B is Bradley Beal.
Yet somehow: all off-season the brainiacs were castigating Bob Myers for not **throwing in Wiseman, Kuminga, Riley, Ryan, and Canon Curry** for the pleasure of making that swap — thereby teaming Steph with a 6'-3" defensive liability whose three ball has weirdly deserted him for four seasons now (.351, .353, .349, .266).
Heck ... even this stupid fanboy seriously entertained the notion (though IIRC, I stopped just short of Canon Curry), so I can’t LOL too hard.
Direct efficiency comparisons (though Beal's has been really bad for some weird reason this year) between a high-volume self-creator and a system player are not useful at all. Put Beal in this system playing off Steph and his efficiency will skyrocket (just like Wiggins' and everyone else who's ever played with Steph did).
Beal's been at 58-59% TS for the past 3 years, so I wouldn't anticipate that this will hold (just like I wouldn't anticipate that Wiggins' 3P% will hold).
That may be true. Still, D-E-F-E-N-S-E. Wiggins, yes; Beal, no.
Bradley Beal was once considered a good defender when his offensive usage was lower. Andrew Wiggins was once considered a terrible defender when his offensive usage was higher.
Relatedly:
Player A: 21.3 pts per 36 on .583 ts% (.353 3pt%)
vs.
Player B(eal): 22.6 pts per 36 on .526 ts% (.266 3pt%)
Player A is 22 years old, on a rookie deal(~2.2, 3.5mil)for two more years(then a restricted free agent) and player B(eal) is 28, making ~36mil this year and can walk out the door at the end of the season.
If neither guy would start over a fully operational Klaybot anyhow, I’d take my chances on Jordan Poole 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
I am often wrong, and mostly OK with admitting it, but this time I was certainly not on the Beal train. I have never believed he added much to a team other than points and even those he seemed to be getting flukily well last year. He's not a guy who over his career gets you assists, rebounds, defense, or wins. It also wouldn't have made sense to trade Wiggins for him because there was really no one to replace what Wiggins does while Poole and Lee can do some of what Beal does, not as well but in that role, and of course, if Klay comes back well then Beal wouldn't even start.
The downward trajectory of Beals 3P shot is bizarre. 3-4 years ago you could say he no longer has Wall setting him up, plus higher volume and it makes a little sense he’d go from 40+ to mid 30’s.
But then he dropped in volume last year w Westbrook (who despite his ballhoggery is a passer who can set up outside shooters) and didn’t have any uptick in efficiency like you’d expect.
Then he dropped volume even more this year while the percentage has cratered. The team has been better then expected and that’s given him a little cover on a trend that’s passing Alarming Town on the way to Disasterville
I was never on that train. Thought the ones that were pushing for that trade [and most of the others] were losing it. And I was right.
Maybe, I’m just a crotchety old homer who can’t stand change or maybe it’s just the joy of watching something organic spring to life-dominate-mellow-procreate and enter the cycle again but I hate teams I love trade away pieces and become something I no longer recognize and or connect with “in my feelings”, I guess I’m really old to lament the advent of free agency in Sport
Free agency is how we got Iguodala.
I get the spirit of the comment though. Getting a franchise player via trade or FA smells. Probably because it makes you feel like a Laker fan.
I think it must be your imagination that some people were pushing the Beal for Wiggins trade. Certainly no-one would admit to it now!
I can’t recall if it was more here or GSoM, but there were definitely supporters of getting Beal.
He's obviously having a down year. But I have to say, nothing against him, but I was NEVER on the Beal train. Like not even straight up for Wiggins, because of fit. I would expect over time Wiggins will trend down and Beal up from where they are right now, but even so would be very happy the team didn't make that move.
Same. Beal just didn't make sense on this roster. I know that the question of "fit" is debatable, but why would you trade someone decent at a position of need (Wiggs) just to get another player that plays the same position as your best player?
Felt more like a case of "ehhhh, this guy may be available, I guess" and the internet running with it. Beal would be great as a self creator, but there's no way in hell I'd want to trade Wiggs for Beal - or really anyone like him. I think Dame was rumored to come here but again, you'd be creating a massive roster hole and tons of defensive issues just to fill a 'want'
B-b-b-but we'd have the two leading scorers in the NBA last season, that's 2x the points right there!!!!
All of the proposed trades smacked of "The Warriors need to do something, this is something, the Warriors need to do this".
100 percent. Never understood where the forced narrative was coming from. I was just hoping Myers was smart enough to know better. Of course he is. Thanks Bob.
Meyers, certainly too busy to be reading our posts
Lol that discrepancy is huge. Also wiggins’ 3pt% went from .382 to .415 in one night!!
I never really got the Bradley Beal hype, always thought he was overhyped because he was in the hunt for scoring title.
However, I can’t get all high and mighty about it — I’ve always erred on the side of defense and caution, and was legitimately initially ambivalent about losing HB for Durant… good thing I’m not GM
Also, never liked the “we’re the best backcourt in the NBA” before they’d ever won anything
Especially when Best Backcourt in the NBA is a TM around here
Looks like he's still a ways away from being able to dribble around GPII. 😉
OH DONT TEASE ME LIKE THAT...
but thanks... I needed that... too much time in between Wiseman footage for me.
But how can we be sure that's actually Wiseman and not a body double to throw us off so we don't find out about Bionic Wiseman too early?
Eh, they're 19 years old. They played 12 & 4 minutes respectively last night. If they play ~25-30 minutes against Agua Caliente, they should be on the bench against Portland to soak up any and all garbage time minutes, even though it'd be 3 games in 3 days. Heck, if they're playing well, they haven't played so much that 5-10 minutes of non-garbage time could be reasonable too.
TIL there's an Agua Caliente
hmmm... I stand corrected, it may be tough to play both games then.
> The Blazers would be paying him $55M at 36-years-old.
To make this clear, he wants Steph money. The Warriors will be paying Steph $55M in his 36-37 year old season.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/stephen-curry-6287/
hmmm so he doesn't want to go for a championship?
Demanding a trade without actually saying it?
Perhaps coincidentally, I also want $107 million for two years this offseason.
I just signed an extension for 100 and I'm not satisfied
Oh! Me too! Where's the line start?