He of the .490/.308 shooting line? Big men need seasoning, of which he has had almost none. In your longer post below, you talk about needing someone who can hold their own against the tougher big dudes in the league. That is not him, yet. Throw him out there now and he'll look more like Smailagić.
Patience is the only way through this. The team is most likely not a contender this season, and also most likely doesn't have the pieces to become one through trades. That sucks. I'll still root like hell!
We watched Curry’s pattern develop through the course of the Olympics. Good to somewhat mediocre play punctuated by flashes of brilliance. This seems to be the pattern going forward.
We watched Klay trying to process such terrible losses at his young age. I think now we are watching Curry struggle to process loss, hopefully more wisely.
The margin for error is so small with this team. If we have a passable Steph Curry game we probably win. Thats it. That was the difference. I just don’t see a move that we can make at this point that will widen that margin of error. We all had Dennis Schröder at the very top of our realistic wish list. Now we are talking about the next tier of potentially available players like Cam Johnson that will defn cost us some draft capital. And even then i just don’t think we have the horses to punch our way to the top. Best hope IMO is just to use this early part to find the right lineup combos and ride with the players that are already on the roster
"The margin for error is so small with this team. If we have a passable Steph Curry game we probably win. Thats it. That was the difference."
I think that actually means that the margin for error was big. We were in the game with a horrible Steph. Problem is that won't be the same against playoff teams.
I agree with this, except the Pacers have looked much better of late, especially with Hali seemingly righting his own ship after some shakiness earlier.
Of course, they were on a 2nd game of road B2B’s, so that hurts.
If they are going to literally mob you, then take advantage of it until they can't afford to do it anymore. They did that in fits and starts but not consistently or aggressively. It's not like this is a new thing. Teams have mobbed Steph for years. You would think that some time along the way the Warriors management would have figured out a way to exploit the shit out of that...but sadly they have not. Steph still tries to make hero shots even when they are bad shots. This is one reason why they need a real 7 footer. They need someone else who has gravity other than Steph. Right now they have no one. Maybe JK somewhat, Wiggins now and then but neither of them get double teamed. Buddy doesn't qualify for gravity because if you play him tight he has no step back shot. He's a catch a shoot three point ace. If he's jammed he can't get it off which is what every team is doing to him now. So who else draws 2 or 3 defenders? No one. They need to make a TRADE! I propose Wiggins must go now that he's playing better and is worth a decent amount again. And Podz must go also. Sure everyone likes him...but he's not athletic, does not have many moves, not a great defender when up against a longer, more athletic guard or wing. A package of Wiggins and Podz and few 2nd round picks should get us a really good big man. TJD is fine, and has shown some spark in recent games but he has zero outside shot, like no 3 and no mid range at all period. Draymond is a better shooter. Looney this year is a better shooter. Maybe TJD could be part of a package also. And TJD cannot defend true 7 footers and there are a LOT of them in the league now. While the Warriors were thinking that the movement away from big men was going to be a permanent winning strategy, the rest of the league moved back to big men, but big men who can shoot 3s, and floaters and mid range and have actual moves. We decided to live with Looney and TJD neither of whom can shoot and neither of whom are tall enough against at least half the teams in the league if not more. We need length, we need athleticism, and we need a true big man who can shoot...and rebound.
I would also like a big man who could defend the rim and shoot a 3. However, it is not the big men that have been killing us. It is our own lack of offense that has put us in the current position we are in. Our D is still not bad. At the beginning of the season, the Dubs swarmed the opposition with accurate shooting coming from many different sources. That has disappeared. We traded for a guy who is seemingly in a shooting slump and is small. Even that is not the reason we are losing. Without Curry at the top of his game, the bench mob shooting must pick up the slack and that has stopped for the most part. Hield has disappeared from the 'elite' category. Draymond is all bark.
There are not a lot of big men in the league who can shoot. Most if not all are coveted by their teams. Assuming there is a team that would part with one, the salary matching and tax apron concerns become a hurdle. As Warriors fans, we like to dream on a big man that can shoot as "the missing link." I am doubtful we will see one before Quinten Post gets his chance. There just aren't that many of them.
Finally, I would add: over the years this team has actually had a number of players that fit this profile. Cousins, Jerebko, Casspi, Bjelica all come to mind. Some panned out, others didn't. My point is, they are hardly a panacea, and they work best when added to a working Kerr system. If you take Wiggins out right now, you may not have that.
I agree with your basic point but Casspi was a 6'9" wing, not a stretch 5 who could defend 7-footers, which is what I think Peter is talking about.
However, as far as the Warriors figuring out how to exploit teams mobbing Steph, they had an answer until recently in Klay. He made the other team pay for mobbing Steph. It doesn't have to be a stretch 5.
>>>The Miami Heat are converting two-way forward Keshad Johnson on a standard two-year NBA contract, sources told ESPN. Johnson has spent the season as a standout player for Heat's G League affiliate, Sioux Falls, averaging 21.2 points and 8.3 rebounds per game.<<<
>>>The New York Knicks intend to re-sign forward Matt Ryan to a two-way deal once he clears waivers, league sources told @hoopshypeofficial.bsky.social. Ryan has shot 39.7 percent from 3-point range in his NBA career. The Knicks will waive Boo Buie to create a two-way spot for Ryan <<<
Steph was forcing shots… that ridiculous long one at the end of the 3rd way too early was unconscionable, and only one of many forced shots. I get that Steph has earned some Lee way, but that was bad. He had an awful game… if he’s gonna be like that on the regular, we don’t need to worry about contending.
Steph facing a double team and getting rid of the ball so the team could play 4-on-3 was working pretty well, then sometime in the 3rd it looked like he thought “Wait a minute, I’m Steph Fucking Curry” and that’s when he started forcing shit.
It’s ironic that several times players were forcing shots, way too early, including Draymond to start the game. It was not the young guys, it was the old guys who didn’t follow Steve Kerr’s request to pass the ball and not take shots early in the time clock.
I do feel some sense of panic in shot selection in his off games recently. He's taking the first open look he can get (open for him is different compared to other NBA players lol) instead of being patient like he was in the past. Why? Who knows. Maybe he's feeling the pressure of getting himself going to jumpstart the offense.
Steph seems to have cut way back on his drives to the hoop, so guys don't have to respect his drives as much and can really harass him on top. I think this is a good indicator of his health and stamina.
Steph's always been like that imo. If he hasn't got it going, he starts trying to force any shot that he can get off. And when it's an off night, it's ugly
I hear you, but it looks like defenders are sticking closer to him, and the space he created for “open enough for Steph” shots just isn’t there, and he’s forcing it up over good contests from defenders in great position instead of getting enough separation to make a difference.
His form also didn't look as good on some of them- there was one shot in particular where he just kind of shotputted it ending in a straight arm- totally not a typical Steph form at all.
I agree with the above. Steph may be feeling that because we don't have a strong second scorer who consistently makes the other team pay for swarming him (as Klay used to do), he has to carry more load than is good for him or for the team. Hence he presses and takes more difficult shots.
"... that he couldn’t throw a beach ball into the ocean..."
Hold up. Have you tried throwing a beach ball into the ocean? On the west coast? It doesn't work. It just blows over your head, right back towards downtown.
So... who's the starting 5 moving forward? Loon? TJD? I don't really care who it is as long as we win games but I hope we figure that out soon. It's hard for any team to develop a rhythm with new faces in the starting lineup every week (not including injury)
I think TJD’s newly found badassery over the last couple games is working to snatch the starting role, but we might see Looney against tougher bigs like Joker and Davis tomorrow.
Steph has clearly declined from his peak, but still has a fairly elite combo of scoring efficiency and volume (25.3 pts per 36 on .602 TS). FG% — which is I think what you mean by “shooting from the floor”? — is a rather misleading, outdated stat that tells us very little about how efficiently a player is scoring his points.
Edit: by EPM (probably the most respected all in one measure of on-court impact) Steph even in his slightly diminished form still rates the #8 player in the league.
That is nice but the bottom line is he is scoring 21 points a game which is what I mean. Outdated ? If you say so, but he is scoring 21 points a game no matter how you want to present it.
I am not bashing Steph or even being critical. I simply pointed out that is surprising to see him at that level whether it is outdated or not.
It is just my opinion that Steph, being the guy the entire offense revolves around, scoring 21 a game is a bit of a problem. TS stats, EPM stats, name your stat, 21 a game is a problem.
I had no issue with citing his PPG. I do think it should be put it the context of his limited minutes, but yeah, part of getting older and declining slightly is needing to play limited minutes.
I do have an issue with citing FG% (“23 of the 26 are shooting a better percentage from the floor”) as it’s a fairly meaningless stat in the three ball era. That was the only part I was calling “outdated.”
As far as that eye test … sure it matters, but it also tends to be clouded by recency bias. Eye tests on him were a lot more positive the game before when he destroyed Ant and the Wolves down the stretch. The nice thing about an objective formula like EPM is that it balances out the highs and the lows.
Yea I agree the fg % isn’t as meaningful as the past but also remember everyone is shooting threes, of course at different volumes.
Regarding the eye test I personally am basing it on the season.
It seems to me he is not finishing his drives as efficiently as the past, but I have no stats to back that up so I could be wrong. That is something that will be age related and will definitely happen.
He is still great, but he is going to need more help.
I have long been an opponent of the importance of the "coach on the floor" veteran player idea. I am particularly opposed to dedicating a roster spot, such as was done for Undonis Haslem, or Iguodala.
I wanted to revisit this in the wake of Kerr's frustration with (most likely) Kuminga's shot selection. To be quite clear, this post is not about Kuminga's shot selection itself. I have no quarrel with the fact that he needs to improve, as all players do; nor with the idea that Kerr and the coaching staff should instruct Kuminga what the game plan is. In fact if they don't do that, they should be fired.
My problem, instead, is with this idea that vets know things and can impart special wisdom that coaches can't because they are somehow both of the game and above it.
The real issue is *message discipline*. So I certainly have heard Draymond say about Kuminga that he regularly tells him "No one can stop you." To go for it, be assertive, and so on. This is in direct contrast to Kerr's recent reminder to keep the ball moving and not take contested mid range shots.
Again, this post is not about Kuminga, Draymond, Kerr, or what blend is best for the Warriors right now. It's about the inevitable problem that if you let veterans have power to communicate with authority to younger players, they will at some point offer contradictory information.
This is true in any management hierarchy. I am sure that Kerr meets with his assistant coaches frequently and that if they were to go in their own direction, that would be grounds for being fired.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Iguodala or Draymond offers something that the coaches don't, but that somehow magically, that thing that they offer never contradicts the head coach.
I think Kuminga has had trouble knowing what's wanted of him. There are most likely multiple reasons for this, not one. Is he headstrong? It appears so, to some extent, I couldn't tell you how much. Is Kerr impatient with him? Maybe. Should Kerr give him more free rein? Maybe. But what is certain is that Kuminga is also hearing from other people (including of course his own posse and social media, which is on him). That's a recipe for confusion. The team would do far better to control any additional unnecessary confusion by telling veterans to keep their opinions to themselves. Vet-Encouragement good, vet-coaching bad.
I don't think kerr and Draymond are sending kuminga mixed messages. When Draymond tells him no one can stop you, he's not talking about taking long twos early in the shot clock. He's telling him to be more aggressive in driving to the rim, which is the same thing Kerr is saying.
How do you know that Kuminga hears what you want him to hear and doesn't interpret it the other way?
Again, my point here is not the specific example of Kuminga and Draymond and Kerr only. The point is, why is the vet player giving instructions that *might* be contradictory to the coach's message? Where's the damage if the vet just claps for the young guy and buys him a milk shake after the game? It's still encouragement, it's just not instruction.
If you're now trying to base your argument on the premise that the player might only hear what he wants to hear, then it doesn't really matter if it's the coach or another player instructing him. If the player only hears what he wants to, then he can't be taught. I would argue that on the job training by more experienced colleagues who have shown over the course of time that they know what they're doing is a well tested method that has proven to be effective in just about every line of work.
We agree. Training by more experienced colleagues works in every line of work.
Also true: in every line of work, more experienced colleagues provide training that is ineffective or contradicts management's messaging.
Seems an unnecessary risk.
The image you're conjuring up of on the job training in a white collar workplace, at least has for me a suggestion of some kind of formalized or routinized training. Of course, not always. In the NBA, it's not like there's a series of meetings where Kerr lays out his training manual and Terry Stotts goes over it with Steph and Draymond and Looney, who then schedule sessions with Podz and Kuminga. It's a lot of informal stuff.
I just thought of something from the preseason which may be relevant to what you're talking about. Remember how kerr kept insisting that kuminga is a 4 but Draymond came out and said kuminga can be a 3 if he wants to be? This was suspiciously self serving on draymond's part because kuminga playing the 4 meant Draymond on the bench or starting as the 5, which he did not want to do. Your point about messages being aligned is spot on. BTW I'm a Muslim living in the middle east but I appreciate your sentiment and hope you have a pleasant holiday.
I hadn't even considered that risk, that the veteran player might say something that is self-serving. Good point. Like Steph might say to Podz "It's in your best interest to always pass it to me, not shoot when you're open."
Based on player podcasts, the older players take young players under their wings, and the young guys (at least the wiser ones) seek their guidance. The relationship between OG and young 'un is special and long-lasting. When you watch the player podcast interviews, "who was your OG?" is a common question. So it's a fact of NBA life, and it's not going to change. In the case of the Dubs, my bet is Kerr and Draymond and Steph discuss the game and the youngsters a lot, and Kerr knows what Draymond is telling his young guys.
There’s a great deal of difference between taking someone under a wing and giving them specific instructions. I have no problem with the former. I don’t even have a problem with the latter as long as those instructions are in line with the coach’s. When they are, great. But there’s a very real risk that they will not be, which can be any players. CP could be telling Wemby something that Pop doesn’t agree with. Even if only 5% of the message is opposite,
It’s just not worth it. If the teacher in a class says write a five paragraph essay and the A student next to you says it doesn’t really have to be 5 paragraphs, well..?
Adding: We know some of what JK is told from what is said in press conferences and podcasts. Maybe some more is reported by the media insiders, which may or may not be reliable. But most of what is said we do not know. And that being the case, whether the messages are really inconsistent is far from clear to me because we hear about it out of context.
I also feel like you (Asher) are getting hung up on a top-down hierarchical view that is not a great thing. I was editor-in-chief of award-winning technical magazines, and I hired all but one holdover on the staff. I trained my entire editorial staff— to a point. I mentored the veteran editors too; we were one of the top two or three publications in our field (worldwide), and most of them had not worked at that level. The bar was high.
But once I knew the veteran editors "got it," which they almost always did, I was very happy for them to instruct younger staff, though I still offered guidance. I observed and paid attention to what the senior staff was teaching but I rarely interfered. Sometimes it's easier and less stressful for a young staffer to hear, say, the associate editor than to get it directly from the top, even if it's the same message. And if the senior staff mentored the junior staff a little differently than I might, that's fine because I was confident that the senior staff were fundamentally on the right page both in what they taught and in keeping the message positive — and they might notice things I didn't.
It's the same basic idea with the coaches and the veteran players mentoring the young players, and in the Dubs' case, the coach and the two top players have been together a long time and understand each other.
I remember watching Chris Paul, encouraging Wiggins multiple times in games to be more aggressive. Seems to me that sometimes players are aware of what’s holding other players back.
Or maybe Wiggins had a tougher year in part because CP was pushing him too hard. I don’t know, you don’t, but why run these risks? If 9 different professional coaches aren’t getting Wiggins to do what needs to be done, it’s not worth it to throw a vet at the job at the risk that the vet is delivering contradictory info
I wonder if Draymond might instinctively be counterbalancing because he knows that the confident swagger of "no one can stop me" is rare, precious and easily nit-picked out of existence? I wonder how Stackhouse talks to JK?
I mean, that would be next level Jedi trick, to do good cop bad cop. I think the much more likely explanation is that Draymond says whatever the fuck draymond wants to say. See: his personality.
Another example is that Kerr was praising Schroder for doing some direction of the other guys . Great ! Unless it contradicts the message in which case he shouldn’t be talking.
I have this theory without any much proof that this is one reason international teams succeed relative to talent against the U.S. They seem to have much greater message discipline and as far as I can tell the players play and the coaches coach.
I think we don't know nearly what we think we know about Draymond's personality. I think that because when you hear his teammates interviewed about Draymond, they consistently say he is totally different off the court and is super supportive, helpful, and positive and pretty much a basketball genius.
RIP, Ricky Henderson. You put Oakland on the map and were one of the finest baseball players I have ever seen.
Time to give Post that chance
Kerr is hardly giving the two bigs on the team a chance. TJD=17.4 minutes per game. Looney=16.3mpg.
Does that mean Draymond is getting close to 14 minutes a game at center?
him or KA
He of the .490/.308 shooting line? Big men need seasoning, of which he has had almost none. In your longer post below, you talk about needing someone who can hold their own against the tougher big dudes in the league. That is not him, yet. Throw him out there now and he'll look more like Smailagić.
Patience is the only way through this. The team is most likely not a contender this season, and also most likely doesn't have the pieces to become one through trades. That sucks. I'll still root like hell!
I haven't been watching SC games. Is his defense pretty dicey too?
We watched Curry’s pattern develop through the course of the Olympics. Good to somewhat mediocre play punctuated by flashes of brilliance. This seems to be the pattern going forward.
We watched Klay trying to process such terrible losses at his young age. I think now we are watching Curry struggle to process loss, hopefully more wisely.
The margin for error is so small with this team. If we have a passable Steph Curry game we probably win. Thats it. That was the difference. I just don’t see a move that we can make at this point that will widen that margin of error. We all had Dennis Schröder at the very top of our realistic wish list. Now we are talking about the next tier of potentially available players like Cam Johnson that will defn cost us some draft capital. And even then i just don’t think we have the horses to punch our way to the top. Best hope IMO is just to use this early part to find the right lineup combos and ride with the players that are already on the roster
"The margin for error is so small with this team. If we have a passable Steph Curry game we probably win. Thats it. That was the difference."
I think that actually means that the margin for error was big. We were in the game with a horrible Steph. Problem is that won't be the same against playoff teams.
I agree with this, except the Pacers have looked much better of late, especially with Hali seemingly righting his own ship after some shakiness earlier.
Of course, they were on a 2nd game of road B2B’s, so that hurts.
Nembhard is playing again after his injury.
If they are going to literally mob you, then take advantage of it until they can't afford to do it anymore. They did that in fits and starts but not consistently or aggressively. It's not like this is a new thing. Teams have mobbed Steph for years. You would think that some time along the way the Warriors management would have figured out a way to exploit the shit out of that...but sadly they have not. Steph still tries to make hero shots even when they are bad shots. This is one reason why they need a real 7 footer. They need someone else who has gravity other than Steph. Right now they have no one. Maybe JK somewhat, Wiggins now and then but neither of them get double teamed. Buddy doesn't qualify for gravity because if you play him tight he has no step back shot. He's a catch a shoot three point ace. If he's jammed he can't get it off which is what every team is doing to him now. So who else draws 2 or 3 defenders? No one. They need to make a TRADE! I propose Wiggins must go now that he's playing better and is worth a decent amount again. And Podz must go also. Sure everyone likes him...but he's not athletic, does not have many moves, not a great defender when up against a longer, more athletic guard or wing. A package of Wiggins and Podz and few 2nd round picks should get us a really good big man. TJD is fine, and has shown some spark in recent games but he has zero outside shot, like no 3 and no mid range at all period. Draymond is a better shooter. Looney this year is a better shooter. Maybe TJD could be part of a package also. And TJD cannot defend true 7 footers and there are a LOT of them in the league now. While the Warriors were thinking that the movement away from big men was going to be a permanent winning strategy, the rest of the league moved back to big men, but big men who can shoot 3s, and floaters and mid range and have actual moves. We decided to live with Looney and TJD neither of whom can shoot and neither of whom are tall enough against at least half the teams in the league if not more. We need length, we need athleticism, and we need a true big man who can shoot...and rebound.
I would also like a big man who could defend the rim and shoot a 3. However, it is not the big men that have been killing us. It is our own lack of offense that has put us in the current position we are in. Our D is still not bad. At the beginning of the season, the Dubs swarmed the opposition with accurate shooting coming from many different sources. That has disappeared. We traded for a guy who is seemingly in a shooting slump and is small. Even that is not the reason we are losing. Without Curry at the top of his game, the bench mob shooting must pick up the slack and that has stopped for the most part. Hield has disappeared from the 'elite' category. Draymond is all bark.
There are not a lot of big men in the league who can shoot. Most if not all are coveted by their teams. Assuming there is a team that would part with one, the salary matching and tax apron concerns become a hurdle. As Warriors fans, we like to dream on a big man that can shoot as "the missing link." I am doubtful we will see one before Quinten Post gets his chance. There just aren't that many of them.
Finally, I would add: over the years this team has actually had a number of players that fit this profile. Cousins, Jerebko, Casspi, Bjelica all come to mind. Some panned out, others didn't. My point is, they are hardly a panacea, and they work best when added to a working Kerr system. If you take Wiggins out right now, you may not have that.
The only way the Kerr system works is if the shooting is accurate.
Yes, but I think what matters is that there is *enough* accurate shooting, rather than what position it is coming from.
Can't argue with accuracy.
I agree with your basic point but Casspi was a 6'9" wing, not a stretch 5 who could defend 7-footers, which is what I think Peter is talking about.
However, as far as the Warriors figuring out how to exploit teams mobbing Steph, they had an answer until recently in Klay. He made the other team pay for mobbing Steph. It doesn't have to be a stretch 5.
This is why 7 & 30 need to share minutes
If only we could get durrant back and allow the all time best mercanary to sleepwalk into buckets again. Those were the days.
KD and a big man who can shoot.
KD = a big man who can shoot.
Not a big man in the sense of someone who plays the 5.
Didn't you know we are in an era of positionless basketball?
Maybe some of the other teams in the West are but the Dubs are not.
>>>The Miami Heat are converting two-way forward Keshad Johnson on a standard two-year NBA contract, sources told ESPN. Johnson has spent the season as a standout player for Heat's G League affiliate, Sioux Falls, averaging 21.2 points and 8.3 rebounds per game.<<<
https://x.com/ShamsCharania/status/1871658129118953573
>>>The New York Knicks intend to re-sign forward Matt Ryan to a two-way deal once he clears waivers, league sources told @hoopshypeofficial.bsky.social. Ryan has shot 39.7 percent from 3-point range in his NBA career. The Knicks will waive Boo Buie to create a two-way spot for Ryan <<<
https://bsky.app/profile/mikeascotto.bsky.social/post/3le3dxzxqjs2p
"The Miami Heat are converting two-way forward Keshad Johnson on a standard two-year NBA contract,"
Brutal signing for two way player Dru Smith who just went with an ACL tear.
Steph was forcing shots… that ridiculous long one at the end of the 3rd way too early was unconscionable, and only one of many forced shots. I get that Steph has earned some Lee way, but that was bad. He had an awful game… if he’s gonna be like that on the regular, we don’t need to worry about contending.
Steph facing a double team and getting rid of the ball so the team could play 4-on-3 was working pretty well, then sometime in the 3rd it looked like he thought “Wait a minute, I’m Steph Fucking Curry” and that’s when he started forcing shit.
It’s ironic that several times players were forcing shots, way too early, including Draymond to start the game. It was not the young guys, it was the old guys who didn’t follow Steve Kerr’s request to pass the ball and not take shots early in the time clock.
I do feel some sense of panic in shot selection in his off games recently. He's taking the first open look he can get (open for him is different compared to other NBA players lol) instead of being patient like he was in the past. Why? Who knows. Maybe he's feeling the pressure of getting himself going to jumpstart the offense.
Steph seems to have cut way back on his drives to the hoop, so guys don't have to respect his drives as much and can really harass him on top. I think this is a good indicator of his health and stamina.
Steph's always been like that imo. If he hasn't got it going, he starts trying to force any shot that he can get off. And when it's an off night, it's ugly
But they’re not all that open…
Yes, they're bad shots but like I said, open for him is different from everyone else
I hear you, but it looks like defenders are sticking closer to him, and the space he created for “open enough for Steph” shots just isn’t there, and he’s forcing it up over good contests from defenders in great position instead of getting enough separation to make a difference.
His form also didn't look as good on some of them- there was one shot in particular where he just kind of shotputted it ending in a straight arm- totally not a typical Steph form at all.
I agree with the above. Steph may be feeling that because we don't have a strong second scorer who consistently makes the other team pay for swarming him (as Klay used to do), he has to carry more load than is good for him or for the team. Hence he presses and takes more difficult shots.
"... that he couldn’t throw a beach ball into the ocean..."
Hold up. Have you tried throwing a beach ball into the ocean? On the west coast? It doesn't work. It just blows over your head, right back towards downtown.
Indeed, that's how some of the Warriors' three-point shots have been lately.
Same thing is true in the Village.
That's what I come here for ... Information.
Who is Number OneRingTest ??
I'm not sure if that was intentionally a cross-popular culture joke (LOTR, one ring to bind them), or just a reference to 'number 1' but if so:
<golf clap>
took me a couple of readings to catch that crossover.
And, if it was't intentional, you can see what useless things I spend my time thinking about.
No, accidental. I was just setting you up for the reply “That would be telling”
So... who's the starting 5 moving forward? Loon? TJD? I don't really care who it is as long as we win games but I hope we figure that out soon. It's hard for any team to develop a rhythm with new faces in the starting lineup every week (not including injury)
Talk to the coach.
I think TJD’s newly found badassery over the last couple games is working to snatch the starting role, but we might see Looney against tougher bigs like Joker and Davis tomorrow.
One thing I just looked up which is rather stunning.
Steph is 26th in scoring and 23 of the 26 are shooting a better percentage from the floor. He is also 1 point above being the 35th leading scorer.
This is interesting when you consider how much the entire offense is based on Steph and also might be telling us something.
Now do TS%?
Steph has clearly declined from his peak, but still has a fairly elite combo of scoring efficiency and volume (25.3 pts per 36 on .602 TS). FG% — which is I think what you mean by “shooting from the floor”? — is a rather misleading, outdated stat that tells us very little about how efficiently a player is scoring his points.
Edit: by EPM (probably the most respected all in one measure of on-court impact) Steph even in his slightly diminished form still rates the #8 player in the league.
That is nice but the bottom line is he is scoring 21 points a game which is what I mean. Outdated ? If you say so, but he is scoring 21 points a game no matter how you want to present it.
I am not bashing Steph or even being critical. I simply pointed out that is surprising to see him at that level whether it is outdated or not.
It is just my opinion that Steph, being the guy the entire offense revolves around, scoring 21 a game is a bit of a problem. TS stats, EPM stats, name your stat, 21 a game is a problem.
The eye test also matters.
I had no issue with citing his PPG. I do think it should be put it the context of his limited minutes, but yeah, part of getting older and declining slightly is needing to play limited minutes.
I do have an issue with citing FG% (“23 of the 26 are shooting a better percentage from the floor”) as it’s a fairly meaningless stat in the three ball era. That was the only part I was calling “outdated.”
As far as that eye test … sure it matters, but it also tends to be clouded by recency bias. Eye tests on him were a lot more positive the game before when he destroyed Ant and the Wolves down the stretch. The nice thing about an objective formula like EPM is that it balances out the highs and the lows.
Yea I agree the fg % isn’t as meaningful as the past but also remember everyone is shooting threes, of course at different volumes.
Regarding the eye test I personally am basing it on the season.
It seems to me he is not finishing his drives as efficiently as the past, but I have no stats to back that up so I could be wrong. That is something that will be age related and will definitely happen.
He is still great, but he is going to need more help.
Happy holidays.
Wishing all a Merry X'mas
Sharing this nice article on the Curry's and their Eat.Learn.Play program
https://andscape.com/features/stephen-and-ayesha-curry-maintain-presence-in-oakland-through-eat-learn-play/
Enjoy the drive, family, and a Christmas day Warriors' game with the team guarranteed to be above .500 after the game.
Merry X-mas, DANIEL...
Reposting:
I have long been an opponent of the importance of the "coach on the floor" veteran player idea. I am particularly opposed to dedicating a roster spot, such as was done for Undonis Haslem, or Iguodala.
I wanted to revisit this in the wake of Kerr's frustration with (most likely) Kuminga's shot selection. To be quite clear, this post is not about Kuminga's shot selection itself. I have no quarrel with the fact that he needs to improve, as all players do; nor with the idea that Kerr and the coaching staff should instruct Kuminga what the game plan is. In fact if they don't do that, they should be fired.
My problem, instead, is with this idea that vets know things and can impart special wisdom that coaches can't because they are somehow both of the game and above it.
The real issue is *message discipline*. So I certainly have heard Draymond say about Kuminga that he regularly tells him "No one can stop you." To go for it, be assertive, and so on. This is in direct contrast to Kerr's recent reminder to keep the ball moving and not take contested mid range shots.
Again, this post is not about Kuminga, Draymond, Kerr, or what blend is best for the Warriors right now. It's about the inevitable problem that if you let veterans have power to communicate with authority to younger players, they will at some point offer contradictory information.
This is true in any management hierarchy. I am sure that Kerr meets with his assistant coaches frequently and that if they were to go in their own direction, that would be grounds for being fired.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Iguodala or Draymond offers something that the coaches don't, but that somehow magically, that thing that they offer never contradicts the head coach.
I think Kuminga has had trouble knowing what's wanted of him. There are most likely multiple reasons for this, not one. Is he headstrong? It appears so, to some extent, I couldn't tell you how much. Is Kerr impatient with him? Maybe. Should Kerr give him more free rein? Maybe. But what is certain is that Kuminga is also hearing from other people (including of course his own posse and social media, which is on him). That's a recipe for confusion. The team would do far better to control any additional unnecessary confusion by telling veterans to keep their opinions to themselves. Vet-Encouragement good, vet-coaching bad.
I don't think kerr and Draymond are sending kuminga mixed messages. When Draymond tells him no one can stop you, he's not talking about taking long twos early in the shot clock. He's telling him to be more aggressive in driving to the rim, which is the same thing Kerr is saying.
How do you know that Kuminga hears what you want him to hear and doesn't interpret it the other way?
Again, my point here is not the specific example of Kuminga and Draymond and Kerr only. The point is, why is the vet player giving instructions that *might* be contradictory to the coach's message? Where's the damage if the vet just claps for the young guy and buys him a milk shake after the game? It's still encouragement, it's just not instruction.
If you're now trying to base your argument on the premise that the player might only hear what he wants to hear, then it doesn't really matter if it's the coach or another player instructing him. If the player only hears what he wants to, then he can't be taught. I would argue that on the job training by more experienced colleagues who have shown over the course of time that they know what they're doing is a well tested method that has proven to be effective in just about every line of work.
We agree. Training by more experienced colleagues works in every line of work.
Also true: in every line of work, more experienced colleagues provide training that is ineffective or contradicts management's messaging.
Seems an unnecessary risk.
The image you're conjuring up of on the job training in a white collar workplace, at least has for me a suggestion of some kind of formalized or routinized training. Of course, not always. In the NBA, it's not like there's a series of meetings where Kerr lays out his training manual and Terry Stotts goes over it with Steph and Draymond and Looney, who then schedule sessions with Podz and Kuminga. It's a lot of informal stuff.
OK, have a Merry Christmas
I just thought of something from the preseason which may be relevant to what you're talking about. Remember how kerr kept insisting that kuminga is a 4 but Draymond came out and said kuminga can be a 3 if he wants to be? This was suspiciously self serving on draymond's part because kuminga playing the 4 meant Draymond on the bench or starting as the 5, which he did not want to do. Your point about messages being aligned is spot on. BTW I'm a Muslim living in the middle east but I appreciate your sentiment and hope you have a pleasant holiday.
I hadn't even considered that risk, that the veteran player might say something that is self-serving. Good point. Like Steph might say to Podz "It's in your best interest to always pass it to me, not shoot when you're open."
I'm a Jew from the Middle East and appreciate the good wishes.
Based on player podcasts, the older players take young players under their wings, and the young guys (at least the wiser ones) seek their guidance. The relationship between OG and young 'un is special and long-lasting. When you watch the player podcast interviews, "who was your OG?" is a common question. So it's a fact of NBA life, and it's not going to change. In the case of the Dubs, my bet is Kerr and Draymond and Steph discuss the game and the youngsters a lot, and Kerr knows what Draymond is telling his young guys.
There’s a great deal of difference between taking someone under a wing and giving them specific instructions. I have no problem with the former. I don’t even have a problem with the latter as long as those instructions are in line with the coach’s. When they are, great. But there’s a very real risk that they will not be, which can be any players. CP could be telling Wemby something that Pop doesn’t agree with. Even if only 5% of the message is opposite,
It’s just not worth it. If the teacher in a class says write a five paragraph essay and the A student next to you says it doesn’t really have to be 5 paragraphs, well..?
Adding: We know some of what JK is told from what is said in press conferences and podcasts. Maybe some more is reported by the media insiders, which may or may not be reliable. But most of what is said we do not know. And that being the case, whether the messages are really inconsistent is far from clear to me because we hear about it out of context.
I also feel like you (Asher) are getting hung up on a top-down hierarchical view that is not a great thing. I was editor-in-chief of award-winning technical magazines, and I hired all but one holdover on the staff. I trained my entire editorial staff— to a point. I mentored the veteran editors too; we were one of the top two or three publications in our field (worldwide), and most of them had not worked at that level. The bar was high.
But once I knew the veteran editors "got it," which they almost always did, I was very happy for them to instruct younger staff, though I still offered guidance. I observed and paid attention to what the senior staff was teaching but I rarely interfered. Sometimes it's easier and less stressful for a young staffer to hear, say, the associate editor than to get it directly from the top, even if it's the same message. And if the senior staff mentored the junior staff a little differently than I might, that's fine because I was confident that the senior staff were fundamentally on the right page both in what they taught and in keeping the message positive — and they might notice things I didn't.
It's the same basic idea with the coaches and the veteran players mentoring the young players, and in the Dubs' case, the coach and the two top players have been together a long time and understand each other.
As mentioned above, it’s not that mentorship is bad. It’s not that hierarchy must be rigid. It’s that key messages must be aligned.
I remember watching Chris Paul, encouraging Wiggins multiple times in games to be more aggressive. Seems to me that sometimes players are aware of what’s holding other players back.
Or maybe Wiggins had a tougher year in part because CP was pushing him too hard. I don’t know, you don’t, but why run these risks? If 9 different professional coaches aren’t getting Wiggins to do what needs to be done, it’s not worth it to throw a vet at the job at the risk that the vet is delivering contradictory info
I wonder if Draymond might instinctively be counterbalancing because he knows that the confident swagger of "no one can stop me" is rare, precious and easily nit-picked out of existence? I wonder how Stackhouse talks to JK?
I mean, that would be next level Jedi trick, to do good cop bad cop. I think the much more likely explanation is that Draymond says whatever the fuck draymond wants to say. See: his personality.
Another example is that Kerr was praising Schroder for doing some direction of the other guys . Great ! Unless it contradicts the message in which case he shouldn’t be talking.
I have this theory without any much proof that this is one reason international teams succeed relative to talent against the U.S. They seem to have much greater message discipline and as far as I can tell the players play and the coaches coach.
I think we don't know nearly what we think we know about Draymond's personality. I think that because when you hear his teammates interviewed about Draymond, they consistently say he is totally different off the court and is super supportive, helpful, and positive and pretty much a basketball genius.
I think the international teams execute better and have better chemistry with all the focus and time together.
It is a great lesson if you really think about it. The importance of discipline, chemistry and execution vs an overwhelming talent advantage.
Maybe Kerr have agreed to he good coach bad coach and it's all be design 😂 more likely you are right although.
Excellent post and something rarely talked about.
It actually has made me view JK a bit differently.