All-time NBA Players #60 - #50. Who was the better AI, Andre Iguodala or Allen Iverson?
The countdown continues
Eric Apricot says: This is an original series written by a friend of DubNationHQ.com. This analyzes and ranks the Top 75ish NBA players of all time. Some of you will be angered, some will think you can do better, but hopefully everyone can find something to enjoy in this journey appreciating the great historical achievements by past and present players.
The Top 75ish NBA Players series index with full details on the ranking process
We intend for the series pieces to come out each week, covering approximately 10 players per piece.
Notation: * Means active player. 77= means tied for #77.
60 Dwight Howard (132 BEAST points)
Honors
Runner-up (5)
Runner-up MVP points (7)
3x Defensive Player of the Year (15)
8x All NBA (5x First Team) (21)
5x All Defense (10)
5x rebounding season leader (10)
2x blocks season leader (4)
All Star (8)
Olympic Gold (3)
Individual career stats
top 15 total blocks (10)
top 15 total rebounds (10)
top 20 total blocks finals (5)
top 30 rebounds per game regular season (1)
top 20 blocks per game playoffs (3)
top 10 blocks per game Finals (5)
most blocks in single finals game (in a loss so minor points) (3)
top 20 TS% regular season (5)
top 50 Win Shares regular season (2)
top 75 Win Shares playoffs (5)
Dwight Howard’s career is one of the stranger stories in NBA history. An absolute monster in Orlando, dunking viciously on anyone and dominating defensively, he was genuinely one of the premier players in the league and a winner to boot, demolishing the East en route to the NBA Finals.
Then came the Dwightmare and all of a sudden he became very mid. He was only 27 when he got traded to the Lakers but was never the same. Did Kobe break him in Los Angeles? Was the back surgery he had that summer career-changing? Did the Warriors revolution devour him? Did James Harden not pass him the ball enough and his engagement and effort tail off?
It’s all very weird. He made his 7th and 8th consecutive All NBA and All Star appearances in his single season in LA and first year in Houston. Then absolutely nothing while he bounced around 6 teams in 8 years.
Nonetheless that peak was something crazy and deserves recognition. Did you know that after Bill Walton set the record for most blocks in a finals game in 1977, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq and Tim Duncan matched it but Dwight was the only one that actually surpassed it? He did get that elusive ring in the Bubble eventually but only as a minor player.
59 Paul Pierce (133 BEAST points)
Honors
Championship (30)
Runner-up (5)
Finals MVP (20)
4x All NBA (8)
All Star (10)
Individual career stats
top 20 total points (15)
top 15 total threes (10)
top 30 steals (3)
top 30 total threes Finals (3)
top 20 threes per game Finals (3)
top 20 TS% Finals (10)
top 30 Win Shares regular season (3)
top 50 Win Shares playoffs (10)
top 50 RAPM (3)
The Truth? You want the Truth?! You can’t handle the Truth!!
The truth is that not many could. The Truth was the lynchpin of the Celtics team that downed both Kobe and Lebron in their primes. The truth is also that Kevin Garnett was the best player on those teams and the backbone of the Celtics defense, but there’s no shame in being the second best player on a team that good.
Then there’s the truth that Draymond Green’s savage “you thought you was Kobe!” heckle was absolutely legendary. There’s also some murky truth somewhere that no one really needs to dive into about that wheelchair incident…
The truth is also that there’s only so long I can keep that up. So here’s some highlights (showcasing his early career surprising springiness that in truth I had forgotten about) and let’s move on:
58 Willis Reed (134 BEAST points)
Honors
2x Championships (50)
Finals runner-up (5)
2x Finals MVPs (30)
MVP (20)
MVP Runner-up points (3)
5x All NBA (1 First Team) (11)
1x All defense (2)
All Star (7)
Rookie of the Year (1)
Individual career stats
top 20 rebounds per game regular season (2)
top 20 rebounds per game Finals (3)
From the 2000s to the 1970s. Some have mused (correctly), including myself, on the wisdom/ total impossibleness of trying to include all of the different eras in our beast. However as we get deeper into the belly of the beast and start seeing more of this jumbling up I thought this is a good moment to try to explain a bit more on the why and how.
Basically I took the view in creating this madness that something that didn’t pay respects to the rich history of the modern NBA would be incomplete, an impure being.
Once you’ve made that mental leap, the question then comes how best to do it. I think it’s pretty clear that the progress and evolution of the NBA is real over the years but it is also unfair to exclude or disrespect older players who didn’t have all the benefits of modern sports science to maximise their performance and extend their careers.
The three eras model of weighting certain accomplishments (mostly championship and MVP points) came about when I found using just the ABA merger as a delineation point kind of shafted some of the greats of the early 70s such as Willis Reed who were plying their trade in a league that felt very different to the early Celtics dynasty of the late 50s and early-mid 60s. (More detail about the specific eras is in the original article).
Indeed every great team has a profound impact on the league that comes after it. Just as the 2000s NBA struggled under the weight of a Jordan-shaped shadow and required revitalising through rule changes, globalisation of talent, and the beginnings of the three-point revolution, so too did the NBA of the late 1960s and 1970s require a similar revitalisation in the shadow of those Celtics.
So how to account for these upheavals? If you count everything the same then the list would just be Bill Russell and the 1960s Celtics then everyone else. But whatever you may think about balancing across eras it just isn’t the same winning a championship when you have to win 16 playoff games vs 12 or 8 for example.
There are so many elements of this beast that some things cancel each other out as the game changes (eg the insane rebounding stats in earlier eras will never be matched in the modern game vs the avalanche of threes nowadays giving a lift to current players), some advances (eg new awards or counting stats) account for changes and progress across the years, but ultimately without some sort of manual adjustment achievements from earlier eras seemed outsized.
As stated at the outset all of this requires some judgements along the way so definitely contains a big dose of subjectivity. But like all creations should, it has gone through an iterative process of testing, learning, improving until our beast emerges from the depths of its lair, dragging its leg behind it, into the world to rapturous applause (ok I made that last bit up).
Anyway that’s how we’ve ended up here, complete with a horribly tortured analogy, at The Captain! I did see one poster musing he wouldn’t be on here, but he’s a two-time champ as the leader of New York’s only NBA championship team. He anchored the defense, grabbed the rebounds, and yes famously hobbled onto the court that time.
Under his leadership the Knicks made 3 finals in 4 years. His injuries eventually cut his career short, something that advances in sports science over the years might have helped, but our beast couldn’t resist. A deserved top 75 player.
57 Andre Iguodala (135 BEAST points)
Honors
3x Championships (1x main player, 2x contributor, 4th ring not enough minutes to qualify) (50)
Finals MVP (reduced due to egregious error) (5)
3x Runner-up (not top 3) (9)
Repeat championship (not top 3) (5)
5 consecutive Finals (not top 3) (10)
2x All Defense (4)
All Star (1)
Olympic Gold (3)
FIBA World Cup Gold (1)
Individual career stats
top 30 steals (3)
top 20 Finals threes (5)
top 30 total assists in Finals (3)
top 30 total steals in Finals (3)
top 30 total blocks Finals (3)
Bonus points for four Finals categories (5)
top 30 threes per game Finals (2)
top 75 Win Shares playoffs (5)
top 50 RAPM (3)
Bonus points
Best playoff record - 16-1 (not top 3) (5)
Best regular season record - 73-9 (not top 3) (5)
Third-best win streak (24-0) (not top 3) (2)
28 consecutive playoff road series with win (not top 3) (3)
Casuals don’t really understand how good Iguodala was. He was actually pretty decent as AI2 in Philly but it was as a leader who did all the stuff that actually leads to winning where he really excelled. We saw the first glimpses of that in Denver, helping them clinch the third seed, and then of course he excelled with the mighty Golden State Warriors.
He was one of the best perimeter defenders of his era, and a championship playmaker who excelled when the pressure was highest. We all saw the resume in real time - clutch strips, blocks and threes, one of the sharpest basketball minds ever on the floor, and plenty of soaring dunks to boot. I still wonder if he hadn’t tweaked his back in the 2016 Finals ahead of Game 6 things might have been a bit different. That’s definitely an oft-neglected part of that collapse/ comeback “discussion”.
Iguodala was the guy who the dyanstic Warriors never won a ring without. Interestingly Sam Walker, whose excellent book on sports leadership “The Captain Class” posits the theory that all great teams across sports have an unsung real leader of a championship culture, pinpointed Iguodala as the Warriors “captain”.
Andre qualifies due to his All Star appearance with the 76ers (let’s not forget he was also an important defensive ace for the 2012 Olympic team) but basically gets a good chunk of his points as a important contributor to the accumulation of insane records the Warriors set, and stuffing the Finals stats sheets across multiple categories. Win Shares and RAPM find his case to be in the top 75 perfectly reasonable. This reflects the philosophical muse at the core of our beast - that considerations of basketball excellence should include those who sacrificed their own glory for the greater good.
That said the Finals MVP over Curry feels even more egregious in the rear view mirror than it did at the time so there is a downwards adjustment for that, despite his undoubtedly fine defensive work on prime Lebron. Our beast’s intention in awarding points to achievements is because it’s generally a pretty reasonable method of picking out the best player that season (in the case of MVP, balanced with runner-up points), or the best player on a championship team (in the case of Finals MVP). But sometimes voters spectacularly fail in their duty. Hence the use of an “egregious error” factor where some points are deducted because of a clear voter error.
Of course this is a subjective adjustment so has to be used very sparingly where there’s a clear incontrovertible case for a do-over. But in this case it does seem pretty clear that Curry should have won it as the best, and most important, player on the winning side. That said Iguodala did still win it in the moment and does get top three player points for that ring as well, recognising his vital role.
56 Allen Iverson (136 BEAST points)
Honors
Runner-up (5)
MVP (25)
MVP Runner-up points (4)
7x All NBA (3x First Team) (17)
4x Scoring Champion (20)
3x season steals leader (6)
All Star (11)
Rookie of the Year (1)
Individual career stats
top 40 total points (5)
top 20 total career steals (5)
top 10 points per game regular season (3)
top 5 points per game playoffs (10)
top 10 steals per game regular season (3)
top 10 steals per game playoffs (5)
top 10 points per game in a Finals series (3)
most steals single playoff game (5)
Bonus points
60 point game (1)
3x 50 point games playoffs (1 first round) (7)
Ah the original AI. He was THE dynamic solo star of the early 2000s. His impact on the culture of the NBA was outsized but our beast is agnostic to such matters. If you haven’t seen the Iverson documentary, it’s well worth a watch though.
On the court with his awesome quickness and incredible handles he could pour in the points in a manner few in NBA history can match, especially at his size. He was one of the premier thieves of his era too. Iverson dazzled so brightly but never made it over the hump, running into the juggernaut that was the Shaq-Kobe Lakers in his lone Finals appearance. Once his quickness began to fade his peak tailed off pretty sharply so he doesn’t have the longevity to make up for the lack of a ring. But what a peak it was.
His presence sandwiched between multiple multiple-championship-winning defensive stalwarts shows that there’s still love in our beast’s heart for outstanding individual brilliance. After all, he’s not a monster.
55 Walt “Clyde” Frazier (137 BEAST points)
Honors
2x Championships (50)
Runner-up (5)
6x All NBA (4x first team) (16)
7x All Defense (14)
All Star (7)
NIT Championship (1)
NIT MVP (1)
Individual career stats
top 20 total assists in Finals (5)
top 30 assists per game playoffs (2)
top 10 assists per game Finals (5)
top 5 steals per game playoffs (10)
top 20 TS% Finals (10)
top 75 Win Shares regular season (1)
top 50 Win Shares playoffs (10)
The other half of the 70s Knicks leading duo, the loquacious Frazier was a hella voracious devourer of opposing perimeter players and a magnificently gracious playmaker for his own teammates. Arguably Clyde was the real reason the Knicks won that first ring, as opposed to the hobbled Reed’s heroic appearance. In Game 7 he put up one of the all time Finals performances with 36 points, 19 assists, 7 rebounds and a bunch of (sadly untracked) steals to seal the deal.
Two rings, 6 All NBA and 7 All Defense appearances, and a host of playoff statistical categories make up the bulk of his score. Indeed despite getting little in the way of regular season stats, Frazier’s Win Shares leaps up in the playoffs, his efficiency in the Finals was off the charts and while he loses out as steals weren’t counted until later in his career he still ranks in the top 5 for steals per game in the playoffs. A big-time performer on the big stage. Plus that style. Damn, he was one cool cat.
54 Joe Dumars (138 BEAST points)
Honors
2x Championships (60)
Runner-up (5)
Finals MVP (20)
Repeat championship (15)
three consecutive Finals (5)
3x All NBA (6)
5x All Defense (10)
All Star (6)
FIBA World Cup Gold (1)
Individual career stats
top 20 TS% Finals (10)
The other half of the Bad Boy Pisrons backcourt. Before Dumars became the unlikeliest of high moral authorities on conduct on the basketball court he was a core part of the team beating the living daylights out of Michael Jordan and every other star in the late 80s/ early 90s. Funny how things work out in life, eh?
Those teams were tough, physical, and yes maybe a little dirty. But they won, and won big against far more glamorous opponents including ending the reign of Bird’s Celtics and Magic’s Lakers and delaying the ascent of Jordan’s Bulls in the East. So maybe there was a point to all those beatings they doled out.
As for Dumars the player he wasn’t flashy but he got the job done. A top-notch perimeter defender, he could lock up anyone on one end and make the big shots without a whole bunch of fuss at the other. Classic beast territory here.
53 Charles Barkley (141 BEAST points)
Honors
Runner-up (5)
MVP (25)
MVP Runner-up points (9)
11x All NBA (5x First team) (27)
season rebounding leader (2)
All Star (11)
2x Olympic Golds (6)
Individual career stats
top 40 total points (5)
top 20 total rebounds (5)
top 30 rebounds per game regular season (2)
top 20 rebounds per game playoffs (3)
top 10 TS% regular season (10)
top 20 TS% playoffs (10)
top 20 Win Shares regular season (5)
top 30 Win Shares playoffs (15)
Bonus points
50 point game playoffs (first round) (1)
It’s true jump shooting teams don’t win championships when their star sports literally the worst ever three point percentage (26.6%) for a player taking a over 2000 attempts! At least he never changed team in pursuit of a championship, or teamed up with other greats of his era! Oh what’s that you say? Never mind.
Chuck’s well established ridiculous entertainment schtick aside he was pretty good. The “Round Mound of Rebound” they called him. Despite his atrocious chucking from three, the Chuckster did score very efficiently. Win Shares likes him quite a bit too.
He had the misfortune of playing in the era of Bird in his early Philly days and then of course couldn’t get past Jordan. Then during Jordan’s first retirement Olajuwon was too much to handle. They’re all-time great players so there’s no shame in that but it does suggest he wasn’t quite on their level. It’s not like he didn’t have help either, especially in Phoenix where he had some very good teammates.
Somewhere along the line he probably should have won a ring given his talents. What’s that you say now? Two years in a row his Suns lost to the Rockets at home in a Game 7, including blowing a 3-1 lead in the 1995 playoffs? And then he went on to join those very same Rockets?? Well, well, well.
Alright enough of that. There’s no doubt he’s an all time great so makes our beast’s top 75 pretty easily (almost top 50 if it makes people feel better).
52 Tom Heinsohn (142 BEAST points)
Honors
8x Champion (5 main, 3 role player) (84)
2x threepeat (20)
Runner-up (3)
4x All NBA (8)
All Star (6)
Rookie of the Year (1)
Individual career stats
top 10 Finals points (10)
top 10 Finals rebounds (10)
Prepare the time machine! We come to the first of those classic Celtics who ruled the roost of the early NBA. Heinsohn won 8 championships in 9 playing years, all while smoking like a chimney. Imagine if he’d played in the current era with proper nutrition and health advice!
Russell’s front court partner, Heinsohn was a leading player on that dominant Celtics dynasty. For beastly purposes he is assumed to be a top 3 player on 5 championships and a clear contributor on the rest. He was pretty much a consistent 20-10 guy for his prime but worth noting in Game 7 of the 1957 Finals he pretty much doubled that with 37 points and 22 board as a rookie. Not bad.
A good highlight mix is hard to come by but here you can make him out in the grainy footage by that distinctive hook shot like a giant old-timey Podz.
51 Artis Gilmore (146 BEAST points)
Honors
ABA Championship (20)
ABA Runner-up (3)
ABA MVP (20)
ABA Playoffs MVP (15)
5x All ABA First Team (5)
4x All ABA defense (4)
4x ABA season rebounding leader (4)
NBA All Star (6)
1x NBA All Defense (2)
Individual career stats
top 40 total points (5)
top 10 total rebounds (15)
top 15 total blocks (10)
top 20 rebounds per game regular season (2)
top 20 rebounds per game playoffs (3)
top 20 blocks per game regular season (2)
top 10 blocks per game playoffs (5)
top 5 TS% regular season (15)
top 20 Win Shares regular season (5)
top 75 Win Shares playoffs
I’ll be honest the first time I heard of Artis Gilmore was when Namond Brice in the Wire rocked his Bulls jersey.
I’ve gone back and forth on his inclusion. His best years were in the ABA, where he definitely displayed beastly exploits winning a championship, MVP and Playoffs MVP. Those counting stats get included usually in NBA totals so I saw no reason to deviate. At 7-foot-2 he was extremely efficient around the basket and an all-time rebounder.
His years in the NBA weren’t quite as brilliant but he still made 6 All Star teams, an All-Defense team, and helped George Gervin make a conference finals (albeit only two rounds) which is something the Iceman regularly failed to do. So it’s not nothing.
In the end I’d have had to juke the stats to keep him out and as all Wire aficionados know that is a very bad thing to do. So on balance he’s in. Thank you beast for educating us - let’s all learn more about the A-Train!
50 Elvin Hayes (147 BEAST points)
Honors
Championship (25)
2x Runner-up (10)
Runner-up MVP points (4)
6x All NBA (3x First Team) (15)
2x All Defense (4)
Scoring Champion (5)
2x season rebounding leader (4)
All Star (12)
Individual career stats
top 20 total points (15)
top 10 total rebounds (15)
top 20 total blocks Finals (5)
top 20 rebounds per game regular season (2)
top 10 rebounds per game playoffs (5)
top 20 rebounds per game Finals (3)
top 20 blocks per game regular season (1)
top 5 blocks per game playoffs (10)
top 10 blocks per game Finals (5)
top 50 Win Shares regular season (2)
top 75 Win Shares playoffs (5)
Another all-time big man from the 1970s, but this one rather better known. There’s no forgetting Elvin Hayes - an NBA champion and a consistent fixture on the 1970s All Star team, his name is etched near the top of many of the statistical leader charts. Only Wilt, Kareem, Duncan and Moses Malone surpass Hayes’ 29,507 points and 17,523 rebounds (combined playoffs and regular season).
Indeed it’s always a major milestone when someone passes Hayes as he stands at the precipice of 30k points. Look out for his name in the next couple of seasons as Steph clocks that one up.
Anyway not a lot to debate here so let’s roll the tape.
The gap between Hayes and our 49th name is reasonably sizeable which brings us to the end of the top 75-ish tier (100+ points - 150 points). By using scores as a delineator our beast is a little future-proofed. For example it’s pretty clear at least one of the current players in this tier (eg Luka) will cross that threshold and bump out Hayes from that 50th spot in the next couple of seasons.
With that said, next time we shall enter the top 50 proper!
New thread up!
Just so you know, you’re all welcome to manipulate me with flattery and favors.