OT: Holy cow, I did not realize Brittney Sykes was quite this good. She looks like Scottie Pippen out there lately. Really hope the Mystics can get healthy, because that roster is awesome at full strength. Looks like no one is beating Las Vegas, but I'd like DC's chances at crashing the presumptive NY-LV finals, at least.
Draymond. Oh, Draymond. One of the best pictures we've had of a "competitive" mindset since The Last Dance. Here's a dude who is a bona fide basketball genius, and also a basketball psychopath. Plays with a fire, and often gets burned, but without the fire he would be just a smoldering wreck, or a fat kid from Saginaw. For years, I loved what he did to contribute to winning, and accepted the temper tantrums as necessary blowing off steam. I hoped with maturity he would get better at doing so productively—as he often did!—without crossing the line—as he occasionally did, too.
Last year showed that his "maturity" was not so well developed as I hoped, and left a permanent stain on his record. We can hope that it was an even more critical learning experience for him—but it will take time and consistency for him to show that a lesson was learned. I'm not sure.
As for his impact on winning, I doubt we could find another player more impactful than Draymond Green any time soon. He's irreplaceable.
Another player more impactful than Draymond Green. I can think of a few currently playing and numerous others in the history of the NBA, and one in particular on the current roster of the Golden State Warriors.
There’s a number of players I trade Draymond for and feel confident the Warriors would be as good or better. Not that those players are available for Draymond Green.)
Point taken. I hope, especially as Green ages or whenever he spontaneously combusts, that Kerr-ball is not so inflexibly one-dimensional that it cannot accommodate any other style that does not include him.
I think that David West and Andre, and Andrew Bogut all helped Draymond in those earlier years. Now he does not have that leveling force and he is often off the rails. I do not know about Livingston and his role in leadership and team dynamics (locker room dynamics) but he might have had a well deserved spot on this list as well
Indeed. Back when Draymond was not the senior player yet, the team dynamic was more stable even when he goes off the rails (it probably helped too that Draymond would have thought several times over about throwing even a whiff of a punch in the direction of David West or Andrew Bogut). Now, with a new contract in hand, podcasts on air and a front office and most of a fan base that fawns over him no matter what he does, there's not much by way of checks and balances anymore.
Steph and CP3 will probably miss 10-15 games each. Hopefully as few as possible at the same time. CJ will not play much if at all normally but he’ll be very important during either’s missed games.
Draymond’s one of those players who people have been expecting to age less than gracefully for years. Until last year he’s held them off with rings and winning. But, If Green continues to react poorly to young guys getting paid the dynasty is dead. He’s got to help Kuminga or some of the other young guys get paid if he wants to have any hope at positive relationships and trust in his leadership from the young guys.
There are those players who are natural leaders on and off the court no matter their age, Steph Curry for instance, and those who, even if they had a fairly tumultuous time when they were younger, eventually mature into a solid dependable leader of a team. Jimmy Butler comes to mind. We are seeing that Draymond Green is not much of either, particularly off the court. Perhaps the issue is that Draymond is seen to be a 'mentor' these days when he perhaps should play no such role. Leave the mentoring to more dependable players and coaches and have Draymond do what he does best on the court.
I honestly don't think it's 'young guys getting paid' that bugs him. There has been lots of speculation, but as far as I know there is no hard evidence to back that up.
If I had to venture a guess, what triggers him is 'young guys not playing within the flow of the team offense and defense to selfishly chase stats TO GET PAID, at the expense of team wins.'
If there is one thing people can't accuse Dray of it's chasing empty stats.
There is only one HIM, Steph, and his window is about to close. JK and (last year) JP have plenty of time time to emerge as stars in 2026 and beyond.
"With KD, he feared if KD doesn't re-sign they might blow it up and ship Dray out. Hence, the attack." There is no evidence of this either. Quite the opposite. My impression was that Dray was pissed at KD's apparent lack of long-term commitment to the team. I never read or heard even a hint about Dray being shipped out at that time or of blowing up the core if KD didn't stay. As Draymond said to KD, "we won without you."
All of which is idle speculation by an SI author, based on what that author thinks the team should do. It's an opinion, not even attributed to a mystery source close to the team. You can read that sort of stuff about almost every player. It means nothing at all.
I think you have come to feel a certain way about Draymond (understandably) and you now interpret his actions based on your feelings about him. But as you said, there is no evidence of (any of) this.
The previous post started with the words "There has been lots of speculation, but as far as I know there is no hard evidence to back that up. If I had to venture a guess..."
Would you really say to someone "you're claiming there's no evidence and you're venturing a guess... BUUUT where's your source for that?"
I was asking about the tone of self-assured certainty in your post. While the poster before you had the exact opposite tone.
*edit... sorry, this is loong, but I want to be clear so I'm not unnecessarily pissing anyone off*
I'll add that I don't actually disagree with the possibility of either of the posts -- yours and the one you responded to by GreenDray.
On top of that, I appreciate the contrarian thing you and Night Night have been adding here. I'm pretty busy these days, but if I had more time I might get sucked into a deeper dive on what the real cost of limiting NBA time for your developing young players is -- not over a single season, but compounded over two, three, four years. I think there's a really complicated balance between MANY factors that some people intuitively sense Kerr might be miscalculating over the long haul.
Anyway, I know it can be frustrating to argue against the majority opinions on a board, so I appreciate that someone asking you to explain why you sound sure about something can feel like an attack, or an attempt to totally cancel out what you're saying, rather than a "are you actually sure about this, or is some of it an educated guess, or speculation?"
Great stuff, Daniel. Dray is the MVP of the CORE. I've liked Poole; even defended him most of the season. However, methinks his head swelled after he got his contract, while his game didn't....Dray may have done, both, the Dubs, and Poole, a favor....
Poole would have been traded no matter what thanks to the league tax structure and penalties for going over the cap. He might have played better without the punch, who knows? So the punch probably cost the Warriors trade equity. Not a favor.
Hm...maybe...methinks if he delivered on a season as good as/better than last year's season, he may have not been going anywhere....the skill set/potential was there, but there was a lot of doubt as to his maturity and capacity to learn/adjust/fit in our system...consequently, even his seemingly unstoppable ISO-penetration and finish at the rim became....self-destructive. In fact, I may go as far as saying I felt he held back the development of the 2d timeline...
I like your Gold-blooded King takes, but I don't think of you as Draymondian -- and that is a good thing, especially these days.
Dray is a special player and has been a cornerstone of the dynasty. But he costs a certain amount of overhead. As I've said in other threads, I'm glad for as long as he can help this team to win. But my 'relationship' with him as a fan feels a lot more transactional. I'm aware that others feel differently.
Appreciate all of the things he does on the basketball court... many of which are very difficult to quantify and put into numbers and stats... but when you watch the game you see them, especially in those few times I've been able to view games in person.
I've always thought that the Warriors as a team really started to gain momentum with their offense when Draymond started to push the ball up court... early in his career he was able to score more that way and that opened up the game for the rest of the team. Still believe they play better when he tries to do this.
Would like to see some more rebounding, that I know he can do...
... but it is always his defense that most helps the team win!
Does anybody truly think that in 2017 after we lost to the Cavs, if we would have simply traded green for KD instead of signing him, that we wouldn't have still won the championship?
Curry klay Iggy KD bogut or whoever was the center in 2017, y'all don't think that team wins the title?
There's been some great stuff from Thinking Basketball about how the massive net differentials of that team were more coorelated to Steph + Dray being on the floor together than any other combo of players
Forsure I completely understand that, but curry prime klay, Iggy and KD is still the title favorite year after to year , to say we don't win atleast one just because Draymond isn't there is wild
Probably a betting favorite, sure, given average bettors overvalue offense. But a Dray-less KD Dubs kind of feels like the current KD Suns - all-in on offense, little rim protection (not sure how well Bogut is adapting to a 5 out NBA)
Except curry is the best offensive player of all time compared to the current suns with an average NBA all star scorer in Devin booker. Good luck beating Curry klay and KD
KD isn’t on the 2017 team without Draymond so Kerr’s point would stand.
But say that Draymond isn’t on that team and like you said they’ve got Bogut. They’re maybe a favorite but not a lock. In that scenario they have no Finals or title experience and they’d have been going against the best version of that Kyrie/Cavs team. That’s a tough first title to win.
With Andre and Andrew (plus peak Steph, KD, Klay) they’re still a stone-cold title lock barring injury, imo. But it’s more likely than not that at least one of those five would be injured at any given point. And being without Dray would somewhat limit their peak smallball awesomeness.
Nice that the threads web links show *something* now, too bad they don't show the video but just a snap, at least for me using firefox on a laptop. Probably the video in my imagination of Jonathan walloping that ball with his forehead is better anyway :)
Good for him to be a multi-sport athlete... for his basketball many people want him to score more ... and he'll have to do more than just this 10 ft. header to put the ball in the net.
OT: Holy cow, I did not realize Brittney Sykes was quite this good. She looks like Scottie Pippen out there lately. Really hope the Mystics can get healthy, because that roster is awesome at full strength. Looks like no one is beating Las Vegas, but I'd like DC's chances at crashing the presumptive NY-LV finals, at least.
Draymond. Oh, Draymond. One of the best pictures we've had of a "competitive" mindset since The Last Dance. Here's a dude who is a bona fide basketball genius, and also a basketball psychopath. Plays with a fire, and often gets burned, but without the fire he would be just a smoldering wreck, or a fat kid from Saginaw. For years, I loved what he did to contribute to winning, and accepted the temper tantrums as necessary blowing off steam. I hoped with maturity he would get better at doing so productively—as he often did!—without crossing the line—as he occasionally did, too.
Last year showed that his "maturity" was not so well developed as I hoped, and left a permanent stain on his record. We can hope that it was an even more critical learning experience for him—but it will take time and consistency for him to show that a lesson was learned. I'm not sure.
As for his impact on winning, I doubt we could find another player more impactful than Draymond Green any time soon. He's irreplaceable.
Another player more impactful than Draymond Green. I can think of a few currently playing and numerous others in the history of the NBA, and one in particular on the current roster of the Golden State Warriors.
I meant, like, as a trade/replacement for him.
There’s a number of players I trade Draymond for and feel confident the Warriors would be as good or better. Not that those players are available for Draymond Green.)
Point taken. I hope, especially as Green ages or whenever he spontaneously combusts, that Kerr-ball is not so inflexibly one-dimensional that it cannot accommodate any other style that does not include him.
I think that David West and Andre, and Andrew Bogut all helped Draymond in those earlier years. Now he does not have that leveling force and he is often off the rails. I do not know about Livingston and his role in leadership and team dynamics (locker room dynamics) but he might have had a well deserved spot on this list as well
Indeed. Back when Draymond was not the senior player yet, the team dynamic was more stable even when he goes off the rails (it probably helped too that Draymond would have thought several times over about throwing even a whiff of a punch in the direction of David West or Andrew Bogut). Now, with a new contract in hand, podcasts on air and a front office and most of a fan base that fawns over him no matter what he does, there's not much by way of checks and balances anymore.
https://twitter.com/warriors/status/1682820304375275521
Our duo of the future. Their time is coming.
Moody talking a lot more in that clip… should we psychoanalyze?
I think Kuminga still has a language barrier, so not that surprising. Somebody has to say something.
I'm excited about the Paul trade because he can maximize Kuminga and Moody's growth. The Cory Joseph acquisition is in this vein, too.
Yeah, I think CJ ends up playing more than we'd expect.
Steph and CP3 will probably miss 10-15 games each. Hopefully as few as possible at the same time. CJ will not play much if at all normally but he’ll be very important during either’s missed games.
https://media.tenor.com/8X0vk0r-ZOIAAAAM/soon-cat.gif
Draymond’s one of those players who people have been expecting to age less than gracefully for years. Until last year he’s held them off with rings and winning. But, If Green continues to react poorly to young guys getting paid the dynasty is dead. He’s got to help Kuminga or some of the other young guys get paid if he wants to have any hope at positive relationships and trust in his leadership from the young guys.
There are those players who are natural leaders on and off the court no matter their age, Steph Curry for instance, and those who, even if they had a fairly tumultuous time when they were younger, eventually mature into a solid dependable leader of a team. Jimmy Butler comes to mind. We are seeing that Draymond Green is not much of either, particularly off the court. Perhaps the issue is that Draymond is seen to be a 'mentor' these days when he perhaps should play no such role. Leave the mentoring to more dependable players and coaches and have Draymond do what he does best on the court.
I honestly don't think it's 'young guys getting paid' that bugs him. There has been lots of speculation, but as far as I know there is no hard evidence to back that up.
If I had to venture a guess, what triggers him is 'young guys not playing within the flow of the team offense and defense to selfishly chase stats TO GET PAID, at the expense of team wins.'
If there is one thing people can't accuse Dray of it's chasing empty stats.
There is only one HIM, Steph, and his window is about to close. JK and (last year) JP have plenty of time time to emerge as stars in 2026 and beyond.
Or maybe he's just a bit of a bully now that he's the senior guy on campus.
"With KD, he feared if KD doesn't re-sign they might blow it up and ship Dray out. Hence, the attack." There is no evidence of this either. Quite the opposite. My impression was that Dray was pissed at KD's apparent lack of long-term commitment to the team. I never read or heard even a hint about Dray being shipped out at that time or of blowing up the core if KD didn't stay. As Draymond said to KD, "we won without you."
All of which is idle speculation by an SI author, based on what that author thinks the team should do. It's an opinion, not even attributed to a mystery source close to the team. You can read that sort of stuff about almost every player. It means nothing at all.
I think you have come to feel a certain way about Draymond (understandably) and you now interpret his actions based on your feelings about him. But as you said, there is no evidence of (any of) this.
Source?
The previous post started with the words "There has been lots of speculation, but as far as I know there is no hard evidence to back that up. If I had to venture a guess..."
Would you really say to someone "you're claiming there's no evidence and you're venturing a guess... BUUUT where's your source for that?"
I was asking about the tone of self-assured certainty in your post. While the poster before you had the exact opposite tone.
*edit... sorry, this is loong, but I want to be clear so I'm not unnecessarily pissing anyone off*
I'll add that I don't actually disagree with the possibility of either of the posts -- yours and the one you responded to by GreenDray.
On top of that, I appreciate the contrarian thing you and Night Night have been adding here. I'm pretty busy these days, but if I had more time I might get sucked into a deeper dive on what the real cost of limiting NBA time for your developing young players is -- not over a single season, but compounded over two, three, four years. I think there's a really complicated balance between MANY factors that some people intuitively sense Kerr might be miscalculating over the long haul.
Anyway, I know it can be frustrating to argue against the majority opinions on a board, so I appreciate that someone asking you to explain why you sound sure about something can feel like an attack, or an attempt to totally cancel out what you're saying, rather than a "are you actually sure about this, or is some of it an educated guess, or speculation?"
The previous post notes that’s there’s no evidence and it’s that persons guess.
Then you replied there was some evidence of his anxiety. So someone asked for a source
And it’s usually customary to share such sources…
Great stuff, Daniel. Dray is the MVP of the CORE. I've liked Poole; even defended him most of the season. However, methinks his head swelled after he got his contract, while his game didn't....Dray may have done, both, the Dubs, and Poole, a favor....
"Dray is the MVP of the CORE." Steph Curry says hello!
Hmmm...who is he....lol...seriously, Steph is without doubt the Team MVP....Dray is still my CORE MVP/COG.
I really wanna see curry with no draymond
At this stage of his career, it would be like Jordan on the Wizards.
Poole would have been traded no matter what thanks to the league tax structure and penalties for going over the cap. He might have played better without the punch, who knows? So the punch probably cost the Warriors trade equity. Not a favor.
>>> So the punch probably cost the Warriors trade equity.
I’m more concerned about the ring he might have cost the Warriors.
Hm...maybe...methinks if he delivered on a season as good as/better than last year's season, he may have not been going anywhere....the skill set/potential was there, but there was a lot of doubt as to his maturity and capacity to learn/adjust/fit in our system...consequently, even his seemingly unstoppable ISO-penetration and finish at the rim became....self-destructive. In fact, I may go as far as saying I felt he held back the development of the 2d timeline...
Nice article, Daniel.
I like your Gold-blooded King takes, but I don't think of you as Draymondian -- and that is a good thing, especially these days.
Dray is a special player and has been a cornerstone of the dynasty. But he costs a certain amount of overhead. As I've said in other threads, I'm glad for as long as he can help this team to win. But my 'relationship' with him as a fan feels a lot more transactional. I'm aware that others feel differently.
Thanks for this!
Unabashed Draymond Green fan.
Appreciate all of the things he does on the basketball court... many of which are very difficult to quantify and put into numbers and stats... but when you watch the game you see them, especially in those few times I've been able to view games in person.
I've always thought that the Warriors as a team really started to gain momentum with their offense when Draymond started to push the ball up court... early in his career he was able to score more that way and that opened up the game for the rest of the team. Still believe they play better when he tries to do this.
Would like to see some more rebounding, that I know he can do...
... but it is always his defense that most helps the team win!
Does anybody truly think that in 2017 after we lost to the Cavs, if we would have simply traded green for KD instead of signing him, that we wouldn't have still won the championship?
Curry klay Iggy KD bogut or whoever was the center in 2017, y'all don't think that team wins the title?
There's been some great stuff from Thinking Basketball about how the massive net differentials of that team were more coorelated to Steph + Dray being on the floor together than any other combo of players
Forsure I completely understand that, but curry prime klay, Iggy and KD is still the title favorite year after to year , to say we don't win atleast one just because Draymond isn't there is wild
Probably a betting favorite, sure, given average bettors overvalue offense. But a Dray-less KD Dubs kind of feels like the current KD Suns - all-in on offense, little rim protection (not sure how well Bogut is adapting to a 5 out NBA)
Except curry is the best offensive player of all time compared to the current suns with an average NBA all star scorer in Devin booker. Good luck beating Curry klay and KD
They aren't beating Houston without Draymond tbh. That'd be a brutal matchup for Bogut.
We played the blazers. Jazz and spurs in 2017
He never comes without Draymond.
Kerr says we don't win a single title without Draymond, I'm asking if you take dray away from 2017 do we still win lol
KD isn’t on the 2017 team without Draymond so Kerr’s point would stand.
But say that Draymond isn’t on that team and like you said they’ve got Bogut. They’re maybe a favorite but not a lock. In that scenario they have no Finals or title experience and they’d have been going against the best version of that Kyrie/Cavs team. That’s a tough first title to win.
With Andre and Andrew (plus peak Steph, KD, Klay) they’re still a stone-cold title lock barring injury, imo. But it’s more likely than not that at least one of those five would be injured at any given point. And being without Dray would somewhat limit their peak smallball awesomeness.
Thank you lol
Thanks for the write up and history!
Rooting for Draymond to get another all-NBA defense recognition (he’ll be tied for 6th with just one more, 5th with two more)
Side note: Wagner was 5th in DRPM this year! (Saw after looking who came in ahead of Draymond this year)
Not sure if that’s good. His first job was Kirk’s coach at Menlo. I’d prefer an outsider. We’ll see
Shows “unavailable” to me… is it high art commentary on Klay’s basketball training status?
Yeah, THAT’S why he’s staying single. 😂
Nice that the threads web links show *something* now, too bad they don't show the video but just a snap, at least for me using firefox on a laptop. Probably the video in my imagination of Jonathan walloping that ball with his forehead is better anyway :)
He’s not in the gym?!?!
Good for him to be a multi-sport athlete... for his basketball many people want him to score more ... and he'll have to do more than just this 10 ft. header to put the ball in the net.