OT: Holy cow, I did not realize Brittney Sykes was quite this good. She looks like Scottie Pippen out there lately. Really hope the Mystics can get healthy, because that roster is awesome at full strength. Looks like no one is beating Las Vegas, but I'd like DC's chances at crashing the presumptive NY-LV finals, at least.
Draymond. Oh, Draymond. One of the best pictures we've had of a "competitive" mindset since The Last Dance. Here's a dude who is a bona fide basketball genius, and also a basketball psychopath. Plays with a fire, and often gets burned, but without the fire he would be just a smoldering wreck, or a fat kid from Saginaw. For years, I loved what he did to contribute to winning, and accepted the temper tantrums as necessary blowing off steam. I hoped with maturity he would get better at doing so productively—as he often did!—without crossing the line—as he occasionally did, too.
Last year showed that his "maturity" was not so well developed as I hoped, and left a permanent stain on his record. We can hope that it was an even more critical learning experience for him—but it will take time and consistency for him to show that a lesson was learned. I'm not sure.
As for his impact on winning, I doubt we could find another player more impactful than Draymond Green any time soon. He's irreplaceable.
Another player more impactful than Draymond Green. I can think of a few currently playing and numerous others in the history of the NBA, and one in particular on the current roster of the Golden State Warriors.
There’s a number of players I trade Draymond for and feel confident the Warriors would be as good or better. Not that those players are available for Draymond Green.)
Point taken. I hope, especially as Green ages or whenever he spontaneously combusts, that Kerr-ball is not so inflexibly one-dimensional that it cannot accommodate any other style that does not include him.
I think that David West and Andre, and Andrew Bogut all helped Draymond in those earlier years. Now he does not have that leveling force and he is often off the rails. I do not know about Livingston and his role in leadership and team dynamics (locker room dynamics) but he might have had a well deserved spot on this list as well
Indeed. Back when Draymond was not the senior player yet, the team dynamic was more stable even when he goes off the rails (it probably helped too that Draymond would have thought several times over about throwing even a whiff of a punch in the direction of David West or Andrew Bogut). Now, with a new contract in hand, podcasts on air and a front office and most of a fan base that fawns over him no matter what he does, there's not much by way of checks and balances anymore.
Steph and CP3 will probably miss 10-15 games each. Hopefully as few as possible at the same time. CJ will not play much if at all normally but he’ll be very important during either’s missed games.
Draymond’s one of those players who people have been expecting to age less than gracefully for years. Until last year he’s held them off with rings and winning. But, If Green continues to react poorly to young guys getting paid the dynasty is dead. He’s got to help Kuminga or some of the other young guys get paid if he wants to have any hope at positive relationships and trust in his leadership from the young guys.
There are those players who are natural leaders on and off the court no matter their age, Steph Curry for instance, and those who, even if they had a fairly tumultuous time when they were younger, eventually mature into a solid dependable leader of a team. Jimmy Butler comes to mind. We are seeing that Draymond Green is not much of either, particularly off the court. Perhaps the issue is that Draymond is seen to be a 'mentor' these days when he perhaps should play no such role. Leave the mentoring to more dependable players and coaches and have Draymond do what he does best on the court.
I honestly don't think it's 'young guys getting paid' that bugs him. There has been lots of speculation, but as far as I know there is no hard evidence to back that up.
If I had to venture a guess, what triggers him is 'young guys not playing within the flow of the team offense and defense to selfishly chase stats TO GET PAID, at the expense of team wins.'
If there is one thing people can't accuse Dray of it's chasing empty stats.
There is only one HIM, Steph, and his window is about to close. JK and (last year) JP have plenty of time time to emerge as stars in 2026 and beyond.
> young guys not playing within the flow of the team offense and defense to selfishly chase stats TO GET PAID, at the expense of team wins.
There's no evidence of this, either. What there IS evidence for is when Dray is anxious about his own situation, he fears someone else's behavior or deals are going to make him odd man out. With KD, he feared if KD doesn't re-sign they might blow it up and ship Dray out. Hence, the attack. With JP, he even said the NBA is a business, and he probably worried JP and Wigs and Klay would empty out the cookie jar and with the tax issues, he was on his way out. So, in my view, its not about the T-E-A-M, its about the I,ME,MINE. He's now taken care of, so he probably won't punch anyone or call anyone a puzzy-azz-bitch this coming season. Probably.
"With KD, he feared if KD doesn't re-sign they might blow it up and ship Dray out. Hence, the attack." There is no evidence of this either. Quite the opposite. My impression was that Dray was pissed at KD's apparent lack of long-term commitment to the team. I never read or heard even a hint about Dray being shipped out at that time or of blowing up the core if KD didn't stay. As Draymond said to KD, "we won without you."
It doesn't mean Dray felt that way, but it does mean the buzz was in the air and he might have been reacting to that, just like the buzz was in the air that the team would not be able to keep all of Dray, Klay, Steph, Wigs, JP, and Wiseman--and the refusal to match GPII's deal was a sign of that. All we need is evidence of buzz in the air and it makes it possible that Dray heard the same thing. And that makes it possible that he was (consciously or subconsciously) reacting to that.
All of which is idle speculation by an SI author, based on what that author thinks the team should do. It's an opinion, not even attributed to a mystery source close to the team. You can read that sort of stuff about almost every player. It means nothing at all.
I think you have come to feel a certain way about Draymond (understandably) and you now interpret his actions based on your feelings about him. But as you said, there is no evidence of (any of) this.
> All of which is idle speculation by an SI author,
Maybe. Maybe they have team sources, maybe not. Either way, though, I'm sure you'd agree that even idle speculation can get in someone's head. Even if a writer has no source, if they write "The team is going to have to choose between Player X and Player Y" for some reason (salary cap? redundancy? age? to make the team coherent?) it can influence Player X or Y. And if other people pick it up and more and more writers are referencing that as fact, it can influence a player. This isn't some odd, implausible idea or fantasy. It happens in the league pretty much every year.
> I think you have come to feel a certain way about Draymond (understandably) and you now interpret his actions based on your feelings about him.
I can see how you might think that. But, if you recall, I was responding to a pretty rosy post about Dray caring so much about the team he loses it and punches a teammate when they . . . aren't playing within the offense. Hard to imagine a rosier interpretation of Dray's violent assault. So, while I don't think I'm doing what you say, it is interesting I'm the one who's take is explained in that way.
> But as you said, there is no evidence of (any of) this.
That's not quite what I said. What I said is there's no evidence for my final conclusion, that's my putting together facts for which there IS evidence. But the evidence doesn't go all the way to proving my conclusion--I used my experience of the world to put the facts in evidence together and reach a conclusion beyond those facts. Some of the evidence on which I draw is of the context in which the KD/Dray kerfuffle occurred, which is consistent with what I wrote. And we have the team's decision to negotiate first with Wigs and JP, and the timing of their deals, and we have Dray's "Its a business interview." If y'all won't believe it unless Dray says "I punched JP because I was worried he was gonna sign such a big contract that there would be no money for me, and I'd have to leave, which for all I've done while here, especially in helping the very same JP, would be embarrassing," then you'll probably never believe it. Which is fine. But, note: Even in a court of law, with a criminal law standard of beyond a reasonable doubt, most people are convicted on circumstantial evidence (which is the kind I have presented), not confessions (as it seems many here demand).
The previous post started with the words "There has been lots of speculation, but as far as I know there is no hard evidence to back that up. If I had to venture a guess..."
Would you really say to someone "you're claiming there's no evidence and you're venturing a guess... BUUUT where's your source for that?"
I was asking about the tone of self-assured certainty in your post. While the poster before you had the exact opposite tone.
*edit... sorry, this is loong, but I want to be clear so I'm not unnecessarily pissing anyone off*
I'll add that I don't actually disagree with the possibility of either of the posts -- yours and the one you responded to by GreenDray.
On top of that, I appreciate the contrarian thing you and Night Night have been adding here. I'm pretty busy these days, but if I had more time I might get sucked into a deeper dive on what the real cost of limiting NBA time for your developing young players is -- not over a single season, but compounded over two, three, four years. I think there's a really complicated balance between MANY factors that some people intuitively sense Kerr might be miscalculating over the long haul.
Anyway, I know it can be frustrating to argue against the majority opinions on a board, so I appreciate that someone asking you to explain why you sound sure about something can feel like an attack, or an attempt to totally cancel out what you're saying, rather than a "are you actually sure about this, or is some of it an educated guess, or speculation?"
It is clear that they had a tone of uncertainty, but I also expressed uncertainty, I just did it in a different way. That's what "in my view" means, it means "and other people legitimately might see it differently." I wouldn't say "In my view Donald Trump was president in 2020" because that's a fact. I could say "In my view Donald Trump could have been a great president if he had been willing to listen to some of his advisors."
Evidence on KD: Read the news reports of the time.
Evidence on the punch: Read Dray's "I understand the NBA is a business" interview.
Evidence on the context: Read the CBA.
On this basis I wrote: "So, IN MY VIEW, its not about the T-E-A-M, its about the I,ME,MINE."
"In my view" is a marker for an opinion. The post before mine just asserted that they thought for Dray it was about the team. They presented no facts for this idea. In contrast, I disciplined my opinions with facts. So, I get called out to provide evidence for what is clearly an opinion, but they are not asked to provide any evidence for what sounds like a fantasy. Looking at what's going on in the world and in the US in particular around key issues like climate change, criminal justice, and more, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that many people are happy to swallow a comforting fantasy whole cloth but demand EVIDENCE (they will probably reject anyway) for an opinion they find distressing.
Great stuff, Daniel. Dray is the MVP of the CORE. I've liked Poole; even defended him most of the season. However, methinks his head swelled after he got his contract, while his game didn't....Dray may have done, both, the Dubs, and Poole, a favor....
Poole would have been traded no matter what thanks to the league tax structure and penalties for going over the cap. He might have played better without the punch, who knows? So the punch probably cost the Warriors trade equity. Not a favor.
> Poole would have been traded no matter what thanks to the league tax structure and penalties for going over the cap.
You may be right. But imagine a punchless world--and by that I mean not ONLY a world where the punch doesn't happen, but ALSO a world where Dray doesn't feel threatened. That world was possible--all they had to do was inform Dray's agent that they intended to sign him to another contract, or even sign it if it was possible by league rules. In that world, Poole probably plays better and the team goes 3-1 at home (like now) but the team, now put together instead of fractured, goes 3-3 on the road instead of 0-6. So instead of 3-7 and Kerr panicking, they are 6-4 and pundits start to buzz that hey, maybe you CAN win while playing the young guns. After 6-4, with court time the young guns develop faster so the team is rolling by January. This reduces the wear and tear on the core. If they just sustain that early start of .750 at home, .500 on the road, they'd go about 30-11 and 21-20. Thats a 51 win team. This year that would have been a 3rd seed at worst, but if any of those new wins were over Memphis its a second seed, and if they win a couple more over Denver, that's a first seed team. Even the worst case scenario of the third seed is more home playoff games, and thus more likely a deeper playoff run. That's more money for Joe. That reduces the bite of the taxes. On the court you don't have the conflict the punch caused and the wins let you develop the young guns by playing them, so their frustration with being benched doesn't happen. So the negative vibe doesn't happen. And, another bonus, there's no minutes for Anthony Lamb to take, so they sign Ty--the backup point guard they desperately needed for the playoff run--and he's available for the playoffs. This reduces Steph's workload, saving him from fatigue. The deep playoff run, perhaps even a title, makes the taxes palatable, to the league's chagrin. All told, everything runs better in a punchless world. But once the punch was thrown, . . .
Hm...maybe...methinks if he delivered on a season as good as/better than last year's season, he may have not been going anywhere....the skill set/potential was there, but there was a lot of doubt as to his maturity and capacity to learn/adjust/fit in our system...consequently, even his seemingly unstoppable ISO-penetration and finish at the rim became....self-destructive. In fact, I may go as far as saying I felt he held back the development of the 2d timeline...
I like your Gold-blooded King takes, but I don't think of you as Draymondian -- and that is a good thing, especially these days.
Dray is a special player and has been a cornerstone of the dynasty. But he costs a certain amount of overhead. As I've said in other threads, I'm glad for as long as he can help this team to win. But my 'relationship' with him as a fan feels a lot more transactional. I'm aware that others feel differently.
Appreciate all of the things he does on the basketball court... many of which are very difficult to quantify and put into numbers and stats... but when you watch the game you see them, especially in those few times I've been able to view games in person.
I've always thought that the Warriors as a team really started to gain momentum with their offense when Draymond started to push the ball up court... early in his career he was able to score more that way and that opened up the game for the rest of the team. Still believe they play better when he tries to do this.
Would like to see some more rebounding, that I know he can do...
... but it is always his defense that most helps the team win!
Does anybody truly think that in 2017 after we lost to the Cavs, if we would have simply traded green for KD instead of signing him, that we wouldn't have still won the championship?
Curry klay Iggy KD bogut or whoever was the center in 2017, y'all don't think that team wins the title?
There's been some great stuff from Thinking Basketball about how the massive net differentials of that team were more coorelated to Steph + Dray being on the floor together than any other combo of players
Forsure I completely understand that, but curry prime klay, Iggy and KD is still the title favorite year after to year , to say we don't win atleast one just because Draymond isn't there is wild
Probably a betting favorite, sure, given average bettors overvalue offense. But a Dray-less KD Dubs kind of feels like the current KD Suns - all-in on offense, little rim protection (not sure how well Bogut is adapting to a 5 out NBA)
Except curry is the best offensive player of all time compared to the current suns with an average NBA all star scorer in Devin booker. Good luck beating Curry klay and KD
KD isn’t on the 2017 team without Draymond so Kerr’s point would stand.
But say that Draymond isn’t on that team and like you said they’ve got Bogut. They’re maybe a favorite but not a lock. In that scenario they have no Finals or title experience and they’d have been going against the best version of that Kyrie/Cavs team. That’s a tough first title to win.
With Andre and Andrew (plus peak Steph, KD, Klay) they’re still a stone-cold title lock barring injury, imo. But it’s more likely than not that at least one of those five would be injured at any given point. And being without Dray would somewhat limit their peak smallball awesomeness.
Nice that the threads web links show *something* now, too bad they don't show the video but just a snap, at least for me using firefox on a laptop. Probably the video in my imagination of Jonathan walloping that ball with his forehead is better anyway :)
FYI, it is possible to do a workout outside of a gym. In fact, go to most any of the playgrounds in NY, DC, SF (when the weather is good) and you'll see young men working out outside, many of them actually on a basketball court made of cement. As for JK's workout, he's OBVIOUSLY following some next gen workout plan. Its a young gun thing, you wouldn't understand. ;-)
Good for him to be a multi-sport athlete... for his basketball many people want him to score more ... and he'll have to do more than just this 10 ft. header to put the ball in the net.
OT: Holy cow, I did not realize Brittney Sykes was quite this good. She looks like Scottie Pippen out there lately. Really hope the Mystics can get healthy, because that roster is awesome at full strength. Looks like no one is beating Las Vegas, but I'd like DC's chances at crashing the presumptive NY-LV finals, at least.
Draymond. Oh, Draymond. One of the best pictures we've had of a "competitive" mindset since The Last Dance. Here's a dude who is a bona fide basketball genius, and also a basketball psychopath. Plays with a fire, and often gets burned, but without the fire he would be just a smoldering wreck, or a fat kid from Saginaw. For years, I loved what he did to contribute to winning, and accepted the temper tantrums as necessary blowing off steam. I hoped with maturity he would get better at doing so productively—as he often did!—without crossing the line—as he occasionally did, too.
Last year showed that his "maturity" was not so well developed as I hoped, and left a permanent stain on his record. We can hope that it was an even more critical learning experience for him—but it will take time and consistency for him to show that a lesson was learned. I'm not sure.
As for his impact on winning, I doubt we could find another player more impactful than Draymond Green any time soon. He's irreplaceable.
Another player more impactful than Draymond Green. I can think of a few currently playing and numerous others in the history of the NBA, and one in particular on the current roster of the Golden State Warriors.
I meant, like, as a trade/replacement for him.
There’s a number of players I trade Draymond for and feel confident the Warriors would be as good or better. Not that those players are available for Draymond Green.)
Point taken. I hope, especially as Green ages or whenever he spontaneously combusts, that Kerr-ball is not so inflexibly one-dimensional that it cannot accommodate any other style that does not include him.
I think that David West and Andre, and Andrew Bogut all helped Draymond in those earlier years. Now he does not have that leveling force and he is often off the rails. I do not know about Livingston and his role in leadership and team dynamics (locker room dynamics) but he might have had a well deserved spot on this list as well
Indeed. Back when Draymond was not the senior player yet, the team dynamic was more stable even when he goes off the rails (it probably helped too that Draymond would have thought several times over about throwing even a whiff of a punch in the direction of David West or Andrew Bogut). Now, with a new contract in hand, podcasts on air and a front office and most of a fan base that fawns over him no matter what he does, there's not much by way of checks and balances anymore.
https://twitter.com/warriors/status/1682820304375275521
Our duo of the future. Their time is coming.
Moody talking a lot more in that clip… should we psychoanalyze?
I think Kuminga still has a language barrier, so not that surprising. Somebody has to say something.
I'm excited about the Paul trade because he can maximize Kuminga and Moody's growth. The Cory Joseph acquisition is in this vein, too.
Yeah, I think CJ ends up playing more than we'd expect.
Steph and CP3 will probably miss 10-15 games each. Hopefully as few as possible at the same time. CJ will not play much if at all normally but he’ll be very important during either’s missed games.
Hopefully not more than we expect.
https://media.tenor.com/8X0vk0r-ZOIAAAAM/soon-cat.gif
Draymond’s one of those players who people have been expecting to age less than gracefully for years. Until last year he’s held them off with rings and winning. But, If Green continues to react poorly to young guys getting paid the dynasty is dead. He’s got to help Kuminga or some of the other young guys get paid if he wants to have any hope at positive relationships and trust in his leadership from the young guys.
There are those players who are natural leaders on and off the court no matter their age, Steph Curry for instance, and those who, even if they had a fairly tumultuous time when they were younger, eventually mature into a solid dependable leader of a team. Jimmy Butler comes to mind. We are seeing that Draymond Green is not much of either, particularly off the court. Perhaps the issue is that Draymond is seen to be a 'mentor' these days when he perhaps should play no such role. Leave the mentoring to more dependable players and coaches and have Draymond do what he does best on the court.
I honestly don't think it's 'young guys getting paid' that bugs him. There has been lots of speculation, but as far as I know there is no hard evidence to back that up.
If I had to venture a guess, what triggers him is 'young guys not playing within the flow of the team offense and defense to selfishly chase stats TO GET PAID, at the expense of team wins.'
If there is one thing people can't accuse Dray of it's chasing empty stats.
There is only one HIM, Steph, and his window is about to close. JK and (last year) JP have plenty of time time to emerge as stars in 2026 and beyond.
Or maybe he's just a bit of a bully now that he's the senior guy on campus.
> young guys not playing within the flow of the team offense and defense to selfishly chase stats TO GET PAID, at the expense of team wins.
There's no evidence of this, either. What there IS evidence for is when Dray is anxious about his own situation, he fears someone else's behavior or deals are going to make him odd man out. With KD, he feared if KD doesn't re-sign they might blow it up and ship Dray out. Hence, the attack. With JP, he even said the NBA is a business, and he probably worried JP and Wigs and Klay would empty out the cookie jar and with the tax issues, he was on his way out. So, in my view, its not about the T-E-A-M, its about the I,ME,MINE. He's now taken care of, so he probably won't punch anyone or call anyone a puzzy-azz-bitch this coming season. Probably.
"With KD, he feared if KD doesn't re-sign they might blow it up and ship Dray out. Hence, the attack." There is no evidence of this either. Quite the opposite. My impression was that Dray was pissed at KD's apparent lack of long-term commitment to the team. I never read or heard even a hint about Dray being shipped out at that time or of blowing up the core if KD didn't stay. As Draymond said to KD, "we won without you."
Well, another path that leads to the same anxiety is fear that KD is gonna want to get paid and make retaining Dray difficult. Here's Sports Illustrated article of the time that says exactly that: https://www.si.com/nba/2019/06/14/golden-state-warriors-free-agency-rumors-kevin-durant-klay-thompson
It doesn't mean Dray felt that way, but it does mean the buzz was in the air and he might have been reacting to that, just like the buzz was in the air that the team would not be able to keep all of Dray, Klay, Steph, Wigs, JP, and Wiseman--and the refusal to match GPII's deal was a sign of that. All we need is evidence of buzz in the air and it makes it possible that Dray heard the same thing. And that makes it possible that he was (consciously or subconsciously) reacting to that.
All of which is idle speculation by an SI author, based on what that author thinks the team should do. It's an opinion, not even attributed to a mystery source close to the team. You can read that sort of stuff about almost every player. It means nothing at all.
I think you have come to feel a certain way about Draymond (understandably) and you now interpret his actions based on your feelings about him. But as you said, there is no evidence of (any of) this.
> All of which is idle speculation by an SI author,
Maybe. Maybe they have team sources, maybe not. Either way, though, I'm sure you'd agree that even idle speculation can get in someone's head. Even if a writer has no source, if they write "The team is going to have to choose between Player X and Player Y" for some reason (salary cap? redundancy? age? to make the team coherent?) it can influence Player X or Y. And if other people pick it up and more and more writers are referencing that as fact, it can influence a player. This isn't some odd, implausible idea or fantasy. It happens in the league pretty much every year.
> I think you have come to feel a certain way about Draymond (understandably) and you now interpret his actions based on your feelings about him.
I can see how you might think that. But, if you recall, I was responding to a pretty rosy post about Dray caring so much about the team he loses it and punches a teammate when they . . . aren't playing within the offense. Hard to imagine a rosier interpretation of Dray's violent assault. So, while I don't think I'm doing what you say, it is interesting I'm the one who's take is explained in that way.
> But as you said, there is no evidence of (any of) this.
That's not quite what I said. What I said is there's no evidence for my final conclusion, that's my putting together facts for which there IS evidence. But the evidence doesn't go all the way to proving my conclusion--I used my experience of the world to put the facts in evidence together and reach a conclusion beyond those facts. Some of the evidence on which I draw is of the context in which the KD/Dray kerfuffle occurred, which is consistent with what I wrote. And we have the team's decision to negotiate first with Wigs and JP, and the timing of their deals, and we have Dray's "Its a business interview." If y'all won't believe it unless Dray says "I punched JP because I was worried he was gonna sign such a big contract that there would be no money for me, and I'd have to leave, which for all I've done while here, especially in helping the very same JP, would be embarrassing," then you'll probably never believe it. Which is fine. But, note: Even in a court of law, with a criminal law standard of beyond a reasonable doubt, most people are convicted on circumstantial evidence (which is the kind I have presented), not confessions (as it seems many here demand).
Source?
Did you ask that of the previous post, or just mine?
The previous post started with the words "There has been lots of speculation, but as far as I know there is no hard evidence to back that up. If I had to venture a guess..."
Would you really say to someone "you're claiming there's no evidence and you're venturing a guess... BUUUT where's your source for that?"
I was asking about the tone of self-assured certainty in your post. While the poster before you had the exact opposite tone.
*edit... sorry, this is loong, but I want to be clear so I'm not unnecessarily pissing anyone off*
I'll add that I don't actually disagree with the possibility of either of the posts -- yours and the one you responded to by GreenDray.
On top of that, I appreciate the contrarian thing you and Night Night have been adding here. I'm pretty busy these days, but if I had more time I might get sucked into a deeper dive on what the real cost of limiting NBA time for your developing young players is -- not over a single season, but compounded over two, three, four years. I think there's a really complicated balance between MANY factors that some people intuitively sense Kerr might be miscalculating over the long haul.
Anyway, I know it can be frustrating to argue against the majority opinions on a board, so I appreciate that someone asking you to explain why you sound sure about something can feel like an attack, or an attempt to totally cancel out what you're saying, rather than a "are you actually sure about this, or is some of it an educated guess, or speculation?"
It is clear that they had a tone of uncertainty, but I also expressed uncertainty, I just did it in a different way. That's what "in my view" means, it means "and other people legitimately might see it differently." I wouldn't say "In my view Donald Trump was president in 2020" because that's a fact. I could say "In my view Donald Trump could have been a great president if he had been willing to listen to some of his advisors."
The previous post notes that’s there’s no evidence and it’s that persons guess.
Then you replied there was some evidence of his anxiety. So someone asked for a source
And it’s usually customary to share such sources…
Evidence on KD: Read the news reports of the time.
Evidence on the punch: Read Dray's "I understand the NBA is a business" interview.
Evidence on the context: Read the CBA.
On this basis I wrote: "So, IN MY VIEW, its not about the T-E-A-M, its about the I,ME,MINE."
"In my view" is a marker for an opinion. The post before mine just asserted that they thought for Dray it was about the team. They presented no facts for this idea. In contrast, I disciplined my opinions with facts. So, I get called out to provide evidence for what is clearly an opinion, but they are not asked to provide any evidence for what sounds like a fantasy. Looking at what's going on in the world and in the US in particular around key issues like climate change, criminal justice, and more, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that many people are happy to swallow a comforting fantasy whole cloth but demand EVIDENCE (they will probably reject anyway) for an opinion they find distressing.
Great stuff, Daniel. Dray is the MVP of the CORE. I've liked Poole; even defended him most of the season. However, methinks his head swelled after he got his contract, while his game didn't....Dray may have done, both, the Dubs, and Poole, a favor....
"Dray is the MVP of the CORE." Steph Curry says hello!
Hmmm...who is he....lol...seriously, Steph is without doubt the Team MVP....Dray is still my CORE MVP/COG.
I really wanna see curry with no draymond
At this stage of his career, it would be like Jordan on the Wizards.
Poole would have been traded no matter what thanks to the league tax structure and penalties for going over the cap. He might have played better without the punch, who knows? So the punch probably cost the Warriors trade equity. Not a favor.
>>> So the punch probably cost the Warriors trade equity.
I’m more concerned about the ring he might have cost the Warriors.
> Poole would have been traded no matter what thanks to the league tax structure and penalties for going over the cap.
You may be right. But imagine a punchless world--and by that I mean not ONLY a world where the punch doesn't happen, but ALSO a world where Dray doesn't feel threatened. That world was possible--all they had to do was inform Dray's agent that they intended to sign him to another contract, or even sign it if it was possible by league rules. In that world, Poole probably plays better and the team goes 3-1 at home (like now) but the team, now put together instead of fractured, goes 3-3 on the road instead of 0-6. So instead of 3-7 and Kerr panicking, they are 6-4 and pundits start to buzz that hey, maybe you CAN win while playing the young guns. After 6-4, with court time the young guns develop faster so the team is rolling by January. This reduces the wear and tear on the core. If they just sustain that early start of .750 at home, .500 on the road, they'd go about 30-11 and 21-20. Thats a 51 win team. This year that would have been a 3rd seed at worst, but if any of those new wins were over Memphis its a second seed, and if they win a couple more over Denver, that's a first seed team. Even the worst case scenario of the third seed is more home playoff games, and thus more likely a deeper playoff run. That's more money for Joe. That reduces the bite of the taxes. On the court you don't have the conflict the punch caused and the wins let you develop the young guns by playing them, so their frustration with being benched doesn't happen. So the negative vibe doesn't happen. And, another bonus, there's no minutes for Anthony Lamb to take, so they sign Ty--the backup point guard they desperately needed for the playoff run--and he's available for the playoffs. This reduces Steph's workload, saving him from fatigue. The deep playoff run, perhaps even a title, makes the taxes palatable, to the league's chagrin. All told, everything runs better in a punchless world. But once the punch was thrown, . . .
Hm...maybe...methinks if he delivered on a season as good as/better than last year's season, he may have not been going anywhere....the skill set/potential was there, but there was a lot of doubt as to his maturity and capacity to learn/adjust/fit in our system...consequently, even his seemingly unstoppable ISO-penetration and finish at the rim became....self-destructive. In fact, I may go as far as saying I felt he held back the development of the 2d timeline...
Nice article, Daniel.
I like your Gold-blooded King takes, but I don't think of you as Draymondian -- and that is a good thing, especially these days.
Dray is a special player and has been a cornerstone of the dynasty. But he costs a certain amount of overhead. As I've said in other threads, I'm glad for as long as he can help this team to win. But my 'relationship' with him as a fan feels a lot more transactional. I'm aware that others feel differently.
Thanks for this!
Unabashed Draymond Green fan.
Appreciate all of the things he does on the basketball court... many of which are very difficult to quantify and put into numbers and stats... but when you watch the game you see them, especially in those few times I've been able to view games in person.
I've always thought that the Warriors as a team really started to gain momentum with their offense when Draymond started to push the ball up court... early in his career he was able to score more that way and that opened up the game for the rest of the team. Still believe they play better when he tries to do this.
Would like to see some more rebounding, that I know he can do...
... but it is always his defense that most helps the team win!
Does anybody truly think that in 2017 after we lost to the Cavs, if we would have simply traded green for KD instead of signing him, that we wouldn't have still won the championship?
Curry klay Iggy KD bogut or whoever was the center in 2017, y'all don't think that team wins the title?
There's been some great stuff from Thinking Basketball about how the massive net differentials of that team were more coorelated to Steph + Dray being on the floor together than any other combo of players
Forsure I completely understand that, but curry prime klay, Iggy and KD is still the title favorite year after to year , to say we don't win atleast one just because Draymond isn't there is wild
Probably a betting favorite, sure, given average bettors overvalue offense. But a Dray-less KD Dubs kind of feels like the current KD Suns - all-in on offense, little rim protection (not sure how well Bogut is adapting to a 5 out NBA)
Except curry is the best offensive player of all time compared to the current suns with an average NBA all star scorer in Devin booker. Good luck beating Curry klay and KD
They aren't beating Houston without Draymond tbh. That'd be a brutal matchup for Bogut.
We played the blazers. Jazz and spurs in 2017
He never comes without Draymond.
Kerr says we don't win a single title without Draymond, I'm asking if you take dray away from 2017 do we still win lol
KD isn’t on the 2017 team without Draymond so Kerr’s point would stand.
But say that Draymond isn’t on that team and like you said they’ve got Bogut. They’re maybe a favorite but not a lock. In that scenario they have no Finals or title experience and they’d have been going against the best version of that Kyrie/Cavs team. That’s a tough first title to win.
With Andre and Andrew (plus peak Steph, KD, Klay) they’re still a stone-cold title lock barring injury, imo. But it’s more likely than not that at least one of those five would be injured at any given point. And being without Dray would somewhat limit their peak smallball awesomeness.
Thank you lol
Thanks for the write up and history!
Rooting for Draymond to get another all-NBA defense recognition (he’ll be tied for 6th with just one more, 5th with two more)
Side note: Wagner was 5th in DRPM this year! (Saw after looking who came in ahead of Draymond this year)
Not sure if that’s good. His first job was Kirk’s coach at Menlo. I’d prefer an outsider. We’ll see
Shows “unavailable” to me… is it high art commentary on Klay’s basketball training status?
Yeah, THAT’S why he’s staying single. 😂
Nice that the threads web links show *something* now, too bad they don't show the video but just a snap, at least for me using firefox on a laptop. Probably the video in my imagination of Jonathan walloping that ball with his forehead is better anyway :)
He’s not in the gym?!?!
FYI, it is possible to do a workout outside of a gym. In fact, go to most any of the playgrounds in NY, DC, SF (when the weather is good) and you'll see young men working out outside, many of them actually on a basketball court made of cement. As for JK's workout, he's OBVIOUSLY following some next gen workout plan. Its a young gun thing, you wouldn't understand. ;-)
Good for him to be a multi-sport athlete... for his basketball many people want him to score more ... and he'll have to do more than just this 10 ft. header to put the ball in the net.